Amazon Prime Video release

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Postby ElMariachi » Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:33 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:(Mari’s English dub is the prime reason why all of the NTE films should be redubbed.)

Can you tell us more about it? :nyao:
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Postby BusterMachine4 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:34 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:(Mari’s English dub is the prime reason why all of the NTE films should be redubbed.)

Wait, what? She was the best part of those dubs! :wink: They turned one of the most hated characters of the original version into a likable person with an actual personality. And given what I’ve heard about the final movie, that’s necessary.

You could say that it’s bad simply because it’s a change, but I disagree with the common perspective here that anime dubs should make no significant changes. In my opinion, “as accurate as possible” should be the realm of subtitles, and I think most anime fans agree with me.

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Postby Kendrix » Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:47 am

A translation shouldn't "fix" anything it's supposed to accurately represent it & make it accessible to people who don't speak the of language - including blocky sci fi dialogue & characters you personally don't like (but maybe others do)

That sort of stuff just one step above editing the sushi rolls out of Sailor Moon

That's as if I make a German version of some big American Tv phenomenon but I edit & change all the details I don't like & all references to USA culture or local slang & edit out all the USA flags.
Then again the USA has even taken the word "philosopher" & British slang terms out of British books lol

It's probably good to do that for works aimed at children who would just be confused & wouldn't understand different culture stuff (which is why Disney redoes all the songs in different languages etc.- if your country is rich...) but EVA has too much boobs & butts in it for grade schoolers.

Is it so bad for a Japanese work to reflect Japanese culture? Such as ppl talking more indirectly etc.
The dialogue is fll of blocky conceptual terms in the OG. That's a detail you might not like but you can't just change it.
Alas poor Kaworu, I knew him well...

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:00 am

Did I say anything about erasing Japanese culture? I don't think I did. I, like most people, hate the old dubbing practice of changing Japanese shows to have them be set in North America: calling Usagi from Sailor Moon "Serena", referring to rice balls as "jelly donuts", etc.

But there's a big difference between that and just rewriting Japanese dialogue to be more engaging in English. To be honest, the Japanese way of speaking is incredibly awkward in English: Just look at the Netflix English dub of Evangelion for proof. Pretty much every English dub of anime "spices up" the dialogue at least somewhat. If you don't like that, then as I said already, you should probably watch subs.

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Postby JuanSorel » Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:10 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:
but EVA has too much boobs & butts in it for grade schoolers.



My grade school self would have disagreed with you... :devil:

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Postby Kendrix » Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:12 am

View Original PostJuanSorel wrote:
View Original PostKendrix#918402 wrote:
but EVA has too much boobs & butts in it for grade schoolers.



My grade school self would have disagreed with you... :devil:


Correction. Too much boobs & butts for the parents of grade schoolers
Alas poor Kaworu, I knew him well...

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Postby Kireek » Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:53 am

Don’t hear anything by next Monday then I give up.

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Postby Zusuchan » Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:38 am

BusterMachine4 wrote:
But there's a big difference between that and just rewriting Japanese dialogue to be more engaging in English. To be honest, the Japanese way of speaking is incredibly awkward in English: Just look at the Netflix English dub of Evangelion for proof. Pretty much every English dub of anime "spices up" the dialogue at least somewhat. If you don't like that, then as I said already, you should probably watch subs.

But why should subs not be spiced up too, then? Why should they not rewrite dialogue so as to be more engaging in English? I understand you're talking here on the basis of the Japanese way of speaking not sounding the best in English legitimizing rewrites such as those done by Funimation, while subtitles won't appear as "stilted" or "weird" and can therefore be left closer to the original language. But the dialogue, at its best, remains closer to Japanese than English. And maybe some people think that it should be rewritten too, so that it would be better to read.

What I'm getting at here is that rewriting dialogue so that it sounds "better" is a slippery slope because first of all, nobody can accurately claim to have an objective understanding of what sounds "good" and because secondly, it is just inviting people to radically rewrite stuff without a care for the original meaning simply so as to make the work in general more promotable for a wider audience. And another problem I personally have is that it invites misunderstandings of the work itself. Felipe said that many people still misunderstand Misato's and Asuka's feelings toward Shinji, thinking they hate and despise him due to the Funi dub. Now, while a part of that can reasonably be expected to come from the Japanese VAs simply being better in general and having the advice and opinions of Anno nearby, I don't think changing lines like "he's not an idiot, he's a brat" into "he's an asshole" helped. It sounds slightly better, it's certainly more engaging...but it makes it easier to misinterpret the film and Asuka's feelings and it deletes interesting information (that Asuka has changed his opinion of Shinji).

I agree that the best thing to do when watching anime is usually to check out the most accurate subs one can get their hands on, but I don't think dubs (and subs too) should work with concepts such as "local audience engagement" and "local audience enjoyment" and "similarities to local culture" in mind too much, the emphasis should always be on an accurate translation that doesn't sound too offbeat in the local language.

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Postby ElMariachi » Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:24 am

View Original PostZusuchan wrote:Now, while a part of that can reasonably be expected to come from the Japanese VAs simply being better in general and having the advice and opinions of Anno nearby, I don't think changing lines like "he's not an idiot, he's a brat" into "he's an asshole" helped. It sounds slightly better, it's certainly more engaging...but it makes it easier to misinterpret the film and Asuka's feelings and it deletes interesting information (that Asuka has changed his opinion of Shinji).

That change in particular is very unfortunate because it has several layers of meanings : it's made abundantly clear in Ha that the "baka/idiot" is a term of endearment from Asuka (and implicitly that she sees him as an equal), so her changing it to "gaki/brat" shows a change in their dynamic, that she was disappointed by his departure and now has a lesser opinion of him (and indeed aside one slipping "baka" when she realizes that he's piloting EVA-13, she consistently calls him "gaki Shinji" from then on); but it also serve on a meta-narrative level to show us that Shinji still has his old flaws (narrow-mindedness, impulsiveness...) and that he hasn't grown out of them yet and will continue to be manipulated, be a liability for those he care about and will never be happy as long as he doesn't mature out of it.

So changing "brat" by "asshole" completely removes that multi-layered meaning and make it just look like Asuka can't stand Shinji anymore.


View Original PostKireek wrote:Don’t hear anything by next Monday then I give up.

Similarly, I'll seek some limited spoilers about the point that seems to make everyone go crazy so I don't have to treat everywhere I go online related to anime as a minefield, I can still wait for the movie to be available to discover everything else about the plot and the characters.
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Re: Amazon Prime Video release

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Postby Kendrix » Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:38 am

View Original PostZusuchan wrote:What I'm getting at here is that rewriting dialogue so that it sounds "better" is a slippery slope because first of all, nobody can accurately claim to have an objective understanding of what sounds "good" and because secondly, it is just inviting people to radically rewrite stuff without a care for the original meaning simply so as to make the work in general more promotable for a wider audience. And another problem I personally have is that it invites misunderstandings of the work itself.


THIS. I think it's super arrogant of random scriptwriters to think they can improve on famous works that are popular for a reason.
Besides, it's not their place even if we're talking about a sucky boring ass hentai OVA.

As a consumer, I want to get the original show or as close to it as realistically possible, not some random nobody's rewrite.

View Original PostZusuchan wrote:I don't think changing lines like "he's not an idiot, he's a brat" into "he's an asshole" helped.


This is a very good example!
Now do think there was very much an intention for the audience to think "whoha everyone hates him now!" but the great problem I have here is that it totally shifts an important nuance of meaning.
Yeah she dropped the sort of personal nickname for something more hostile. (It's not exactly affectionate but he had to "earn" the upgrade from "Daddy's boy")
"He's not an idiot he's an asshole" to me suggest "he's not clueless but actively malicious" or just vague negativity.
The implication with 'brat' is that she's twice as old now so his irritating personality traits appear in a different light to her.
The implication shifts from "Ugh, Shinji" to "Ugh, Teenagers." and that's vital when there's an ongoing motif in these movies about what it means to become mature.

Of course it's not possible to find for every word & expression another that has the exact same connotations in English but that doesn't mean people can just make new shit up from whole cloth and randomly insert stuff etc.
& it's especially fatal with a work that depends so much on subtlety nuance & implication. In the worst case ppl will be arguing about what it all means on an incorrect basis

Obviously there's also an opposite extreme, I don't really believe in leaving the suffixes in for example; Ideally someone who knows nothing about Japan should still be able to enjoy it... and maybe learn something about cultural differences portrayed on screen, which they couldn't if they're all made to talk like Americans. American cultural hegemony is bad enough as it is let other stuff exist for petes sake
Alas poor Kaworu, I knew him well...

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Postby Zusuchan » Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:31 am

ElMariachi wrote:
That change in particular is very unfortunate because it has several layers of meanings

I didn't even think about some of the stuff you said here, but you do make sense. And yes, this is really an instance where making the translation more easily digestible also means losing a certain amount of complexity and layers in the work.

Kendrix wrote:
Of course it's not possible to find for every word & expression another that has the exact same connotations in English but that doesn't mean people can just make new shit up from whole cloth and randomly insert stuff etc.

I agree. Obviously there will always be a certain level of "digestibility increasing" when translating and the only way to really get the full experience would be to, uh, learn the language and in many cases, even some stuff about the culture. So translations will always be incomplete in that sense, but I think that means they also have more responsibility to be truthful and abide by the source material precisely because of that fact. Subs and dubs are not just the way the majority of Westerners experience anime, but the way the majority of people experience non-English foreign films and TV series. Embellishing anything will lead to a lesser understanding of a work for a lot of people who won't be able to have the best optimal experience for maximum understanding already.

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:36 am

Well, if you don't like dialogue changes in English dubbing, direct your concerns to the North American anime industry as a whole. Because everyone is doing it. Singling out Funimation, ADV, or any specific company for doing it is just plain wrong.

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Postby Zusuchan » Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:50 am

I and the others here were singling out Funimation in this particular instance because we were talking mostly about that company's changes to NTE in an Eva forum thread about Eva business. My statements (and I'm pretty sure Kendrix's too) about the necessity of good translation were, however, meant to be applicable to every translation. Funimation and ADV certainly aren't the only ones to be creative, but I don't think that makes them better in any other way than that they're a part of a larger phenomena, which is not the best of excuses.

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Postby JuanSorel » Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:55 am

View Original PostKireek wrote:Don’t hear anything by next Monday then I give up.


I would wait a bit. This coming 3-4 weeks after the Japanese cinema release was always unusual to say the least. Give it a bit more time. A couple of months, something that, according to precedent, is more normal.

I just hope nobody spoils the experience for themselves because of frustrated expectations.

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Postby bobgoesw00t » Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:03 pm

I know most people will ignore me when I say this but we all just agree that when you translate something from Japanese into English, you HAVE to change somethings and it's for that exact reason that there will always be people pissed about the changes. I really don't care one way or another what gets changed as long as I can watch the video and enjoy it. Only thing I can't do is play a JRPG that has dual audio without using the Japanese voice track as in those cases, the dub voices sound like nails on a chalkboard to me xD
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Postby hui43210 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:23 pm

View Original Postbobgoesw00t wrote:I know most people will ignore me when I say this but we all just agree that when you translate something from Japanese into English, you HAVE to change somethings and it's for that exact reason that there will always be people pissed about the changes. I really don't care one way or another what gets changed as long as I can watch the video and enjoy it


The point people have been trying to make is that while change may be necessary to translate any language, you should be doing so while preserving the intent of the original author. The original dubs of 3.0 and EoE did a notoriously bad job of this.
I mean, predictability is the central attraction and the narrative hook that we've all come to expect from the Evangelion franchise. How come Anno can't realize this? Twice? - FreakyFilmFan4ever

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Postby penguintruth » Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:28 pm

Obviously Japanese and English are completely different languages, with different sentence structure and syntax rules, so translating Japanese to English will always have to have some smoothing over. It's all a matter of degree. Even the greatest dubs aren't 100% translations of the Japanese scripts. But it's also true that sometimes dub studios get a little too cute with their scripts, and while Funimation mostly does pretty solid work, they've been known to get a little too "creative" at times.

But personally, my biggest problem with the Evangelion English dubs, up until the VSI one for Netflix, was the casting and acting, not necessarily the translation or scripts.

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Postby The Dragon Mask » Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:19 pm

Current mood

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Postby ElMariachi » Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:53 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:This is a very good example!
Now do think there was very much an intention for the audience to think "whoha everyone hates him now!" but the great problem I have here is that it totally shifts an important nuance of meaning.
Yeah she dropped the sort of personal nickname for something more hostile. (It's not exactly affectionate but he had to "earn" the upgrade from "Daddy's boy")
"He's not an idiot he's an asshole" to me suggest "he's not clueless but actively malicious" or just vague negativity.
The implication with 'brat' is that she's twice as old now so his irritating personality traits appear in a different light to her.
The implication shifts from "Ugh, Shinji" to "Ugh, Teenagers." and that's vital when there's an ongoing motif in these movies about what it means to become mature.

It's interesting (and a great way to show how even the original voice acting with the director's input can bring different interpretations), because I got the opposite impression from that line: that she immaturely completely dismisses Shinji's potential reasons for leaving and immediately assumes that since he left for his "doll" despite being informed of what was going on, then obviously he's nothing more than a brat that can't be reasoned with, not realizing that with the incomplete information that WILLE managed to give him, leaving with "Rei" was the logical thing to do, like she's assuming that since she knows everything, then he must know everything too, and can't get in his shoes.
In short, that line gave me the impression that she stills has the same flaw of making immediate assumptions as 14 years ago, when she immediately assumed that Rei and Shinji only got their post as pilots because they're the "Commander's pet" and "Daddy's boy" respectively; and that it was a foreshadowing of the catastrophic domino of miscommunication that led to Fourth Impact, and she still continued afterward, immediately assuming that he's just pouting at the bottom of his entry plug (because he's a brat) while anyone more level-headed, after ten second at looking at how he doesn't respond to anything, would immediately understand that there's something really bad happening to him.

The most ironic is that she actually right that he's still a brat, and she does have more life experience than him and can (and won't hesitate to) impart to him some of her experiences, but she's won't be his path to maturity, because she herself isn't there neither.


Edit: why the hell are the names changed by random words!? :cringe:
Edit 2 : *look at the date* of course. :lol:
Last edited by ElMariachi on Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby UrsusArctos » Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:44 pm

Split the Fool's Day tangent into a new thread -
https://forum.evageeks.org/thread/20752/Fools-Day-2021-split/

Continue the best you can with discussion, folks. Don't worry, everything will be back to normal after Fool's Day ends! ;)

EDIT: My apologies for any confusion caused by the merge, I forgot that pre-merge links don't automatically redirect. All the posts from today are fully intact and continue beginning here - post/918460/Thats-One-Hell-of-an-April-Fools-Joke-Guys/#918460

Since the confusion is resolved, I'm splitting out the accidental tangent from below into the graveyard so that the main topic discussion can continue.
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