Is Rei human?

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Is Rei human?

Postby ZeroNow » Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:59 pm

They may have not gone down this path in the series, not just because of censorship issues, but because of the inncorrect focus it would have put on the story. It's not the point of the series, but it could've possibly overshadowed the entire thing.

Just saying.

The question I have is... what exactly constitutes 'rape' in this situation? Rei isn't a sex doll or a robot, but she isn't human either. Or an animal. You'd almost have to come up with a new term for it. If it even happened.

QMisato can sleep well at night knowing that she has tackled a subject that needs virtaully ZERO convincing of 99% of the population, but maybe it needs to be aimed at a real world scenario, involving actual human beings. They could use the support more than a fictional character that isn't even human within it's own fictional universe, that we're not even sure it happened to.

Edit: This tangent about Rei's humanity has been split off from this thread due to being an unrelated matter full of interesting discussion on its own.
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Re: QMisato (knowingly???) spreads a myth about Gendo raping Rei

Postby Line » Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:03 am

Despite Gendo relationship with Rei who is her obediant daughter, a substitute for his wife, and in a no so much hidden way esoteric servant to bring instrumentality, and such, I think it's too far stretched to said "Oh Gendo is molesting/using Rei sexually :o ! What a male meanie !" particulary because Misato Q seem to see the situation of which she analysis in the "feminist glasses" perspective.

As so, I grow really weary of such analysis of any pieces of (no) medias, who simplify complicated humans relationship (Not that's there is not situation where a subject can't be qualified of "Bad"/Evil and the other as "Good".)

to a simple "Oh, males are evil and womans are always poor pure being misguided by them!"

Altough it's not to say that's Rei is not misguided for at least a good chunk of the serie, even though she has her one free will encloisonned for many diverses factors than "characters".

In addition, and as a final word to my post, it's really simplify too much Gendo character and own complexes/problems :shrug: Not that's you can't not seem him as "antagonistic" as his role in the story but..Hum, I digress :tongue:

Altough I hope having made my point clear.
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Re: QMisato (knowingly???) spreads a myth about Gendo raping Rei

Postby Zusuchan » Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:12 am

ZeroNow: I believe that Rei is human, because what else could she be? She came from LCL, has a human body and the partial soul of humanity's progenitor. She's human and I don't see any way she couldn't be.

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Re: QMisato (knowingly???) spreads a myth about Gendo raping Rei

Postby Berserker » Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:52 am

I agree with Zusuchan here, but i would also like to add that Rei does have a part of Lilith's genes. Not that it makes her anything else besides human, but it's like an unintentional addition to human's biology which is totally deleterious as we see Rei taking Ritsuko's medication to keep her body from rotting away. But yeah, she's human.
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Re: QMisato (knowingly???) spreads a myth about Gendo raping Rei

Postby JoelcrNeto » Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:45 am

View Original PostZeroNow wrote:[...] but she isn't human either. Or an animal.

I know the concept of human in EVANGELION is a bit confusing and complex, but Rei herself tells Kaworu that he is human just like her, hence both are humans. There is no more fitting proof than the show itself tells us.

On the other hand, there is an analogy to rape in EoE, but it's beside the point in this topic, I think.
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Re: QMisato (knowingly???) spreads a myth about Gendo raping Rei

Postby ZeroNow » Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:27 am

But she isn't born from another human. At best she is a clone. A vessel for information that can be repeated again and again. She can show logical reasoning and obviously has learned human language (something a computer can be programmed to do), but Rei lacks the power of abstract thought and seems less self-aware than a normal human (almost robot like).

Her mind, or personality, may have human traits, and may even have established it's humanity to a recognizable enough degree - but her body is a shell. Simply a constuct to hold that personality, that if damaged or destroyed, can be replaced with a new one.

That's NOT human... in a physical sense.

She attains a greater awareness at some point and springs this on Gendo at the opportune time, trancending to a higher level. But even THIS isn't human - it's somethng MORE.

(Incidently - "I'm not your doll" can be taken two ways - as it is by QMisato, as proof of sexual abuse by Gendo - or as, I believe, it was meant, in terms of manipulation in the grand scheme. He loved Rei more than his son, because she WAS the perfect doll (useful object), who didn't whine or bitch or question things - like a REAL human - but just did as she was truly told - a pawn piece moved into place - until the ultimate reversal.)


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View Original PostLine wrote:Despite Gendo relationship with Rei who is her obediant daughter, a substitute for his wife, and in a no so much hidden way esoteric servant to bring instrumentality, and such, I think it's too far stretched to said "Oh Gendo is molesting/using Rei sexually :o ! What a male meanie !" particulary because Misato Q seem to see the situation of which she analysis in the "feminist glasses" perspective.

As so, I grow really weary of such analysis of any pieces of (no) medias, who simplify complicated humans relationship (Not that's there is not situation where a subject can't be qualified of "Bad"/Evil and the other as "Good".)


to a simple "Oh, males are evil and womans are always poor pure being misguided by them!"

Altough it's not to say that's Rei is not misguided for at least a good chunk of the serie, even though she has her one free will encloisonned for many diverses factors than "characters".

In addition, and as a final word to my post, it's really simplify too much Gendo character and own complexes/problems :shrug: Not that's you can't not seem him as "antagonistic" as his role in the story but..Hum, I digress :tongue:

Altough I hope having made my point clear.


Well.. I would be interested in hearing educated perspectives from other cultures on it, including Japan itself, as Americans generally get bent out of shape on anything sexual. Japanese society has their own unique culturally learned view on certain aspects of life and sexuality, and it doesn't always translate the same to other cultures (the same as American culture doesn't always translate to someone else's).

The other thing that gets a bit annoying is the idea that something like this 'supposedly' happening in the storyline is somehow seen as SUPPORTING the act. Which is, in itself silly. Bad characters do bad things. Interesting storytelling, tries to go beyond cartoon cut-out bad guys and try and show us true evil. And that is sometimes horrifying. Doesn't mean the creator AGREES with the act.

Like the comedian Joe Rogan once pointed out - Bob Marley didn't realy shoot the sheriff. It's a song. A story. A made up piece of work.

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Re: QMisato (knowingly???) spreads a myth about Gendo raping Rei

Postby Zusuchan » Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:16 am

Rei is human because she has human genes and consciousness. You say she learned human language, but that doesn't matter because so do computers. Are you saying you or I are therefore equatable to computers and that the fact we learned language doesn't count as a factor of our humanity? How do you know she lacks the power of abstract thought? We have no proof of that. She's not as good at it as others, but that's due to her isolate upbringing where the person she talked to the most was Gendo, not exactly known for being a great parent figure. She's less self-aware how? The fact that she lacks understanding of this and that doesn't mean she's less aware of herself. Her body is a shell in the sense that it can constantly be remade, but whether or not that qualifies as a factor of "inhuman" has been extensively debated and even though no answer has been reached on, I think that doesn't disqualify Rei from being human either, because what matters is the consciousness, not where it's contained.

Rei even feels emotions and has shown them several times in NGE and unless you want to argue she's just emulating them, I think there are pretty great indicators of humanity. She may not be a human in a physical sense, granted, but physicality is by no means what makes someone human or not in the first place-that's consciousness and a specific way of relating to and interacting with the world (by which I mean largely a) morality and the ability to live one's life with morals instead of thinking about self-gain; b) abstract thinking, which Rei does do, seeing as she clearly understands certain social taboos and lives her life like a normal human being) all of which Rei has.

Also, I just want to point out that I don't think Gendo necessarily loved Rei more than Shinji or that that would have been due to her submissiveness. Gendo loved Shinji as well, he was just horrible at showing it and overall, Gendo's character is defined by this fear of emotional relationships, which is also the reason why he tries to keep his distance from literally anyone, including Rei. We know he thinks of her as a daughter, but barely talks with her. And when he does, he asks basic questions about school, before shutting up again. Rei was just nearer and he grew more accustomed to her. The fact she looked like Yui might have played a role in it and I tend to think it probably did, but her submissiveness sure isn't the reason the two have a deeper relationship than Shinji and Gendo do.

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Re: QMisato (knowingly???) spreads a myth about Gendo raping Rei

Postby ZeroNow » Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:38 am

View Original PostZusuchan wrote:She may not be a human in a physical sense, granted, but physicality is by no means what makes someone human or not in the first place-that's consciousness and a specific way of relating to and interacting with the world (by which I mean largely a) morality and the ability to live one's life with morals instead of thinking about self-gain


If a dog gained self awareness and the ability to speak, would it therefore be human?
And did Rei have morals, or was she simply programmed?
Do any of us truly have morals, or are we simply programmed?
Rei seemed to be less about self-gain than pretty much every main character in the story... did that make her more human, or more than human?

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Re: QMisato (knowingly???) spreads a myth about Gendo raping Rei

Postby Berserker » Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:57 am

ZeroNow wrote:At best she is a clone.

As if clone of a specific being is a completely different organism than its ancestor being. By definition, a clone is nothing but an organism or cell which is genetically identical to its ancestor, which doesn't mean it's a different species. Of course a clone is produced asexually. But it has the exact biological traits from its ancestor. Human is a biological term, and in this case Rei has every reason to call her a human.
Rei lacks the power of abstract thought and seems less self-aware than a normal human

Humans learn their basic "human" traits and socializing skill from their family and surrounding mostly in their childhood. Now if you're forced to spend your life as a lab rat, far from being with a family, even from human touch which happened in Rei's case, then you're bound to be introvert and submissive like that. Your statement of her lacking of self awareness and and inability of abstract thinking is utterly BS as she's seen questioning her own identity and she likes to spend her time reading books to quench her thirst for knowledge on science and shit.
because she WAS the perfect doll (useful object), who didn't whine or bitch or question things

That's called being submissive, which a LOT of people are like IRL. She's taught to obey every command, mainly by Gendo. After Shinji came and started treating her like a human, which no one ever did, she did show emotion and implying what's best for everyone, questioned things and took decision of her own(e.g. hesitated to carry on command to shoot Bardiel as it might hit Toji in the entry plug, exploded N^2 mine on Zeruel core in vain without any such order given to her, handed over the total control of instrumentality to Shinji over Gendo).
If a dog gained self awareness and the ability to speak, would it therefore be human?

Biologically, humans and dogs are completely different animals and term, whether or not they have self awareness or the ability to speak. Some species of parrots, even ravens if you try to teach them properly, they'll speak. Does that make them humans? Dolphins and elephants also have self awareness and intelligence comparing to other animals, but they're not called humans as their biological traits don't match up with ours. Note that intelligence and self awareness differs cause of biological difference among each organism.
Rei seemed to be less about self-gain than pretty much every main character in the story... did that make her more human, or more than human?

The same as any other human. What you're talking about is character and mental development, which as i already said, in her case didn't quite sprout as she didn't get the chance to do so like a normal kid does with a normal family and a normal surrounding.
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Re: QMisato (knowingly???) spreads a myth about Gendo raping Rei

Postby IgRAzm » Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:47 am

View Original PostZeroNow wrote:If a dog gained self awareness and the ability to speak, would it therefore be human?


Agree with most of the responses to ZeroNow. Just wanted to say - there is an awesome soviet movie based on nearly as awesome Michail Bulgakov's book, A Dog's Heart, that actually tackles with the issue of your example from a unique perspective. Really suggest watching it; though admittedly without the understanding of the cultural context it might be not as complete of an experience.

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Re: QMisato (knowingly???) spreads a myth about Gendo raping Rei

Postby ZeroNow » Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:29 am

So a clone, who is killed, and then recreated, and then dies again, and is recreated a third time - implanted with the same memories as the first... everyone here agrees that’s a human?

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Re: QMisato (knowingly???) spreads a myth about Gendo raping Rei

Postby IgRAzm » Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:43 am

View Original PostZeroNow wrote:So a clone, who is killed, and then recreated, and then dies again, and is recreated a third time - implanted with the same memories as the first... everyone here agrees that’s a human?


Not the same memories as the first, but as the one who died before but whos memory was copied some time earlier. And what else is she, if not human? Are the people with severe amnesia any less human than other people? Are the people with ASPD (psychopathy) any less human than other people? She seems at the very least hundred times more human than any other Angel to me.

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Re: QMisato (knowingly???) spreads a myth about Gendo raping Rei

Postby Berserker » Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:50 am

What's there to not to agree about? You're talking about human, a biological organismic term. From every way Rei's biology matches up with a human, except some Lilith genes, which i already said is like a little addition.
And to clear up about her memory, Rei I's memory was most possibly created, like how our memories get created over time to time by experiencing stuff. Her memories had back up which where injected in Rei II. Later after Rei II died, Rei III got Rei II's memory which obviously had some addition from Rei II. But some of them gets obscured over the process of backing up and injecting over and over again.
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Re: QMisato (knowingly???) spreads a myth about Gendo raping Rei

Postby ZeroNow » Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:12 pm

View Original PostIgRAzm wrote:Not the same memories as the first, but as the one who died before but whos memory was copied some time earlier. And what else is she, if not human? Are the people with severe amnesia any less human than other people? Are the people with ASPD (psychopathy) any less human than other people? She seems at the very least hundred times more human than any other Angel to me.


They had damage done to them. They didn’t have their personality and memories uploaded to them.

I don’t know. If my daughter brought home a clone to date and marry, not sure I’d feel like - oh yeah, that’s a human. I get that many are confused by the sexual attractiveness of Rei or whatever. She’s ‘safe’.

The truth is... human beings themselves are untrustworthy and dangerous. Their minds can go out of whack. Someone... who’s thoughts and feelings are uploaded? Just don’t see them as the same. Just wouldn’t feel secure. That’d feel like leaving your computer to babysit a 2 year old.

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Re: QMisato (knowingly???) spreads a myth about Gendo raping Rei

Postby IgRAzm » Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:24 pm

View Original PostZeroNow wrote:They had damage done to them. They didn’t have their personality and memories uploaded to them.

I don’t know. If my daughter brought home a clone to date and marry, not sure I’d feel like - oh yeah, that’s a human. I get that many are confused by the sexual attractiveness of Rei or whatever. She’s ‘safe’.

The truth is... human beings themselves are untrustworthy and dangerous. Their minds can go out of whack. Someone... who’s thoughts and feelings are uploaded? Just don’t see them as the same. Just wouldn’t feel secure. That’d feel like leaving your computer to babysit a 2 year old.


Uh.. Are you agreeing now that she is human? Because, I don't think anyone here would disagree with that Rei III is different from Rei II. Or with that her feelings and experiences aren't easily comparable to those of most people. Wouldn't feel secure - then you relate to Shinji right after learning the truth about Rei's life. I'd say nothing surprising is happening here, as being alienated from someone else is a barrier than all people stuggle with, every day. I'd say, it would probably be still an objectively better decision from Shinji, if he tried talking things out with Rei. Even though she isn't the same, it's not like she never met him; even though she doesn't express her feelings, she was also going through a lot of stress, at the same time as Shinji.

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Re: QMisato (knowingly???) spreads a myth about Gendo raping Rei

Postby ZeroNow » Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:19 pm

Well, it is Science FICTION, but if we’re talking about the actual process of cloning... you can not clone a persons personality. The person you clone would be very different from the person cloned from.

A cloned human that is programmed with information by someone - not from a lifetime of learning and experience - isn’t truly a human individual.

Rei may be someone in a human body, but she isn’t a human being. She’s a construct of someone’s idea in an attractive human body. It is the process of growing and learning and experiencing that makes us an individual. Rei hasn’t had that.

She’s a Frankenstein’s monster, in a dolly outfit, with the benefit of a memory download. I just don’t see that as human, any more than I would think of Frankenstein’s monster as human.

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Re: QMisato (knowingly???) spreads a myth about Gendo raping Rei

Postby IgRAzm » Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:35 pm

View Original PostZeroNow wrote:Rei may be someone in a human body, but she isn’t a human being. She’s a construct of someone’s idea in an attractive human body. It is the process of growing and learning and experiencing that makes us an individual. Rei hasn’t had that.

What is your reference for this? Based on what I saw, she had been learning things for a couple of years at least, the same way everyone did. Everyone has a different take on how the memory before that came to be, because it wasn't explained. What you say seems like Ritsuko propaganda/things she says to herself to make herself comfortable. It also seems to me you don't have a picture of what Gendo means to Rei, and the other way around. Rei II had a real bond with him, no matter what portion of Rei's mind may say to her regarding her personality's nature, or how little it is acknowledged by Gendo himself.

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Re: QMisato (knowingly???) spreads a myth about Gendo raping Rei

Postby Berserker » Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:53 pm

I'm curious about your definition of human and what one needs to be human. Surely it seems faulty as you're simply taking a question of biology to metaphysics and fiction. But sure, do describe please.
ZeroNow wrote:you can not clone a persons personality

That depends on what soul one gets after being cloned from its ancestor. In Rei's case, she got Lilith's partial soul(arguably whole soul) while she's half clone of Yui. Yeah, she shares physical resemblance with Yui, not personality. But what does that make her? A completely different human and a being of her own.
A cloned human that is programmed with information by someone

Reiterating, a clone is a asexually produced organism or cell which is genetically identical to its ancestor. Nothing else. It isn't programmed with or as something.
Rei may be someone in a human body

She is a person of her own, in her own body. You're ignoring the whole spiritual aspect of it. It doesn't matter if you don't believe it IRL or not. But NGE sure does.
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Re: Is Rei human?

Postby ZeroNow » Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:36 am

You can't clone a soul though. Not in scienece fiction and not in reality.
And a soul... is what makes us a person.
To take the religious aspect out if it, you can't clone a personality - the true essence of being. Not in (most) science fiction and not in reality.
And that personality... created from an infinite number of paths that we take from birth throughout our life is what creates an individual.
You can have a human body, a vessel - and program a 'personality' and even teach it to learn - but that is artifcial.
It hasn't learned through experience - trial and error - understanding and misunderstanding - through various landscapes, both physical and psychological as well as various teachers and antagonists.

This has been a lesson of science fiction for as long as I can remember. In the real world, it is understood by science.
Science Fiction teaches us, that we can NOT play God. The consequences are always harsh.
It's the same with Rei. If she had been born of an earth woman, and conditioned her whole life, she would've never been able to betray her programming.
That part of her from Lilith - her true programming - completely dismissed Gendo's human programming and took it's natural course.
Her true form.
And that was not a human being as we know it.

We don't think of Frankenstein's Monster as a human being. We think of it as a monster. But that's because it hasn't been 'dolly'd up', like a Rei or given a fake conditioning to fool our senses. But the truth is, they play essentially the same role. Created by man, born from energy we don't completely understand and then turning on that creator - because it rejects it's unnatural creation. It wasn't created naturally and thus, it isn't a natural, complete, real human being.

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Re: Is Rei human?

Postby Berserker » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:29 am

ZeroNow wrote:You can't clone a soul though....you can't clone a personality

And we never said so.
programming

There's nothing to program here. There's two theory of Rei's birth, either she was born like Kaworu during Yui's contact experiment without causing any sort of impact or Lilith being reduced into a embryo; or Nerv gave birth to her like how "cloning actually works" using Yui's DNA extraction from any remaining of her that they could salvage after the contact experiment and Lilith's genes for unknown reason. The former is most likely what happened, as that actually answers the question about how Rei's soul being partial (arguably whole) soul of Lilith. Yeah the process cannot be called "normal". But what does programming have to do with any of this? From your perspective, it seems like you're calling souls a "programming" by God, and you cannot accept Rei as human as her soul was simply fiddled with to swap bodies during her birth and anytime she died. No one did anything with her mind, all they did was alter her genes to control her age. She has a human body and a soul, there's nothing more to it. From biological and mental standpoint, she's human.
We don't think of Frankenstein's Monster as a human being.

Again, there's two theory over it. Either it didn't have a soul, which Victor immediately realized after he stared in its eyes and saw it watery, felt the coldness in those and whole thing, then freaked out. The rest is self explanatory. The other theory is it did have a soul, but Victor's realizing what a vicious abomination he created from appearance made him freak out, which also triggered the "monster". Also its biology was altered to many levels comparing to a human to make it work. Which isn't the case for Rei.

Really there's nothing more to add here. Please try considering to give the whole thing and what we said a more clear thought.
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