How do you feel about grown ups watching anime?

Non-Eva Anime and Manga discussion

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Re: How do you feel about grown ups watching anime?

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Postby Zusuchan » Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:05 am

Breasts jiggle, yeah, but logically speaking it would make far more sense if combatants would have breast support in whatever way, don't you think? Yes, this is the apocalypse, everybody needs to worry about saving the world first and foremost, etc., but besides from being strange and distracting, it's still not necessary. I don't imagine a bra would significantly hinder the ability of a female to pilot an EVA. Not all shots with Asuka's legs can be classified as fanservice, agreed, and the example you posted does have story significance. Pointing out Asuka's leg shots specifically was a bit of a mistake on my part, I guess. But it's not like there's something preventing from fanservice from being both that and something with story significance. Not in the sense of Rei's apartment scene in ep.5, which is largely a narrative point first and foremost, but in the frame you posted, for example, there was no need for a shot as low as that. Then again, Q is a sexually loaded film and maybe I'm just missing something. I have seen it only once...

Considering Q, I do think it is what I said. That doesn't mean Anno is perhaps really against fanservice (and the more I know about him, the more I'm starting to believe he's not against it as its own entity), but when put together with Jo and Ha, then Q acts as a deliberate change of pace and aesthetics, going from Ha's more straight-forward, generic nature to a more dark, confusing, slow, artistic one. Shinji is judged in Q for his actions in Ha and how they constituted an escape from reality and using other people for it. Besides from the general state of the world, the film also discusses the negatives of Shinji's actions (which act as surrogates for the actions of the people who use fantasy to escape from reality, which is exactly what the generic anime and also Ha when divorced from the rest of NTE play on for commerce) in other ways. Shinji refuses to accept his actions, leaps onto Kaworu, abandons Rei after realizing she's not 'his' Rei, then causes Kaworu's death and Fourth Impact as well, due to once again being obsessed with the past and wanting a fantasy over reality. All of this is a very clear rebuttal of the generic anime, as well, as they play on those desires and don't attempt to help people.

So I would say Q is a refusal of the traditional generic anime and what it entails and a discussion about its aftereffects, yes.

I already said it, but Anno isn't against fanservice on its own-he's against it as yet another facet of generic, 'recycled', pointless anime. He likes fanservice himself. Which is something that I personally dislike, I must say-I don't understand his stance. Fanservice tends to be pointless when not done for reasons of narrative and the same is true of Anno's pointless fanservice. This is why it's weird for me personally-I know Anno's viewpoint, but I just can't agree with it and it seems low-key in disagreement with his other beliefs and Q. But he has enough respect for me due to his great artworks and understanding of the evils of escapism.

Talking about the "censoring stuff", I would also say that it's pointless also precisely because it's not dealing with the cause, but rather its symptom. It's a symptom that is also in some ways a cause and is becoming more of that as history goes on, but just censoring is only going to lead to willful ignorance and that has never been good historically. I also hate the idea of vast amounts of culture and history being locked up due to ideas of "indecency".

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Re: How do you feel about grown ups watching anime?

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Postby kuribo-04 » Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:32 am

Breasts jiggle, yeah, but logically speaking it would make far more sense if combatants would have breast support in whatever way, don't you think?


Well, it would. But there's probably tons of things about Eva that would make more sense if they were different. If Eva was generally more set on being as realistic as possible that would seem out of place to me. But I'd say Eva is very allegorical.

So some animated breasts don't bother me. I guess it's subjective if that distracts you from the more serious elements of the story, but it definitely isn't Highschool of the Dead.

And it isn't necessary, but it isn't necessary either that the Evas look cool, or that the films blend CG and animation, etc. But it's stuff that people enjoy, makers or audience.

That doesn't mean Anno is perhaps really against fanservice (and the more I know about him, the more I'm starting to believe he's not against it as its own entity)


I mean the guy directed Re:Cutie Honey.
https://youtu.be/5t6fyLAuGk4

but when put together with Jo and Ha, then Q acts as a deliberate change of pace and aesthetics, going from Ha's more straight-forward, generic nature to a more dark, confusing, slow, artistic one.

I know what you mean, but I still don't think these are that easy to separate. Jo and Ha are more straightforward, yes, but I wouldn't call them generic. Citizen Kane is straightforward.
You can be straightforward and be perfect at what you do, or play with the audience and hide true intentions under the surface (which like NGE both Jo and Ha do IMO).


So I would say Q is a refusal of the traditional generic anime and what it entails and a discussion about its aftereffects, yes.

I don't think that's Anno's point, and I agree with what I think is his actual point: that you shouldn't only watch certain types of shows. The art doesn't cause the harm, being closed-minded does so.
Obviously there's harmful art, but I don't think fanservice stuff has to be as I said before.

Which is something that I personally dislike, I must say-I don't understand his stance.

I think he just likes sexual stuff like most people lol. It's just as valid to not be into it, or not liking it depicted in certain areas, but Anno definitely is not an out of the ordinary case.

Not in the sense of Rei's apartment scene in ep.5, which is largely a narrative point first and foremost, but in the frame you posted, for example, there was no need for a shot as low as that.

I don't agree with that. There could be many reasons it's as low as it is that aren't necessarily just fanservice reasons. I think the shot definitely would feel different even slightly changed.
You could also go up with the camera, and some person with a back fetish or something will think it's the greatest fanservice ever lol.

Edit:
Also you could argue artists putting fanservice where they want is the opposite of sexual repression and healthy in some way, but honestly that's not my field lol
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Re: How do you feel about grown ups watching anime?

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Postby dzzthink » Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:38 pm

I believe anno not only approves of it but was one of the original progenitors of a new adult-type of anime that was gaining recognition in the nineties. In a time where anime could have stuck to just astroboy or lupin, there were certain gamechangers that stood out as being slightly more edgy and mature. I think anime has helped open up the doors of animation for all ages. Without more adult elements or even fanservice,there would have been a stagnation in more serious and artistic works. Outside of Japan, the range of animated movies are limited to generic pixar or walt disney or comedy tv series like the simpsons. It is only recently that we get to see more animated pictures like waltz with bashir, undone, persepolis, animatrix, bojack horseman, van goph, and love death and robots. The controversial nature of fan service as art should be determined on whether it is tasteful and adds any novelty. I don't think an exploitative overuse of fanservice has any merit but in Evangelion it is subtle. There are many scenes like Shinji/Asuka finding pen-pen in the shower and then running out naked are part of the black humour we see in anime culture. There are other moments that could be argued as poor taste but it doesn't necessarily detract from some sort of theme or typical aspect of anime.

It would not have been forseeable to Anno at such an early stage of anime that this spiralled to the point where some types of anime became too pornographic and violent, where it literally caters and promotes certain fandoms. I think we are more worried about an older group of people being drawn to lolli anime or obsessing over waifu characters than the younger generation that is exposed to content outside their age range.

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Re: How do you feel about grown ups watching anime?

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Postby Zusuchan » Sat Nov 07, 2020 5:05 am

kuribo-04: I agree that there's stuff in Eva that's there simply because it's aesthetically appealing, but to me the whole fanservice still seems strange, primarily because I don't understand how someone like Anno, who so clearly dislikes escapism, would look at fanservice and think it to be perfectly fine and acceptable on its own. Yes, he's a human being and heterosexual and therefore likes sexy, attractive women, but I still think it's a hole in his ideology. Look at the breasts-it's a very simple thing and it's there only because it looks appealing to a large demographic i.e. anyone with sexual interest in females.

I still stand by my view of Q. Ha and Q are very different very deliberately and I do think Anno doesn't like anything that's only there for commerce and cheap entertainment. His views re: anime haven't changed drastically ever, they've only become a bit more soft-toned whenever spoken out. And if you know what he said about anime in the '90s ("it's dying", "so much masturbation"), you'll understand that him being a fan of, say, Naruto is unlikely. His Cutie Honey works are outliers in that case and I don't know what to think about them, especially since I've never seen them. I guess doing so is in order sooner or later, especially if I want to understand more about the man behind them. In terms of "straightforward", what I meant was not so much that Jo and Ha are easy to decipher on the surface, but rather that when looked at as their own separate entities (which robs them of a lot of what makes them actually good) they're easy to decipher-largely because there's not much to be deciphered. They're simply entertainment, a not-that-bland and arguably (way) better version of a Marvel movie. Great artworks can be straightforward in the sense of not having lots of complexity like indeed perhaps Citizen Kane or Kiki's Delivery Service or Dazed and Confused. But none of those films are in my view comparable to any Marvel film when it comes to quality and being actually good. The No.1 proof for it, besides from simply higher aesthetic quality, is those films are about something-and all of those things look straightforward, but they're actually not, especially when done with real heart.

My point about the frame you gave is that it's the way it is for deliberate story purposes, yes, but it's also done in the way that anyone with the inclination can clearly ogle Asuka's butt and legs if they're so inclined. Butts and legs are a lot more 'popular' than backs anyway. It's a bit of a pointless discussion, I guess, since you clearly have a different view of it all. I would say that the majority of Q doesn't have fanservice in the slightest and at least 90% of the little it does have can be explained by simple storytelling and it doesn't have fanservice as its primary objective. But this also makes the 10% of pointless fanservice all that more distracting.

Also you could argue artists putting fanservice where they want is the opposite of sexual repression and healthy in some way, but honestly that's not my field lol


Sexual repression is bad in my view as well. But putting your own sexual interests into your work for no other reason than "why not" can only lead further to the sexual perversion problems I've already mentioned. There's a difference between liking female legs and 4-year old octopus girls.

dzzthink: More adult anime certainly helped to fight its stagnation as a cultural artform and the release of works like NGE, Serial Experiments Lain, Cowboy Bepop and Princess Mononoke certainly helped push anime somewhere else and influence younger animators. But fanservice isn't an utterly necessary component of that. Discussing sex, sexuality, sexual relationships and all the other things related to or at least deeply entwined with our species-wide urge to procreate is adult and could be a part of a great anime and help to make anime more interesting as a whole, but fanservice because fanservice isn't scratching that itch.

I disagree that Anno was one of the instigators of such fanservice however-it already existed way before NGE and even Gunbuster. And the rising popularity of fanservice was a bit more of a wide-spread event-NGE and Anno played a role, certainly, and it could even have been really big, but by no means was he the instigator or anything like that.

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Re: How do you feel about grown ups watching anime?

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Postby kuribo-04 » Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:49 am

but to me the whole fanservice still seems strange, primarily because I don't understand how someone like Anno, who so clearly dislikes escapism, would look at fanservice and think it to be perfectly fine and acceptable on its own

Fanservice anime isn't the escapism he dislikes. Making fanservice anime your whole life, that is what he thinks is bad.

Yes, he's a human being and heterosexual and therefore likes sexy, attractive women

He could be bisexual too for all we know.


Look at the breasts-it's a very simple thing and it's there only because it looks appealing to a large demographic i.e. anyone with sexual interest in females.

Well, simple - you gotta know how to draw properly.
And like I said, there's other stuff that is the same. There are explosions in Eva cause people like action. I don't think something having large appeal makes it worse.

Ha and Q are very different very deliberately and I do think Anno doesn't like anything that's only there for commerce and cheap entertainment.


Anno 1995:
Come to think of it, why did you decide to make your upcoming new work a robot thing? I only remember asking why, and I don't think I was convinced at the time.

Anno: As a commercial product (laughs). No, seriously. I thought the best way for me to get my original project through would be to make a robot, space, or beautiful young girl one. Because I thought these categories would have the best product value. It's easy for sponsors to pay for it.



you'll understand that him being a fan of, say, Naruto is unlikely

AFAIK he likes Dragon Ball, and is an enormous fan of Ultramam, Super Sentai and the freakin original Mazinger manga. I promise you there isn't that much difference in artistry between first Mazinger and Naruto.

You are again making the distinction between good and generic art. But Anno makes a distinction between art that is simple yet good and stuff that is crappy.

His Cutie Honey works are outliers in that case and I don't know what to think about them, especially since I've never seen them.

Re:Cutie Honey is porn pretty much. Which makes sense since that is what Honey originally was. He's a fan of that too obviously, otherwise he wouldn't adapt it.

But this also makes the 10% of pointless fanservice all that more distracting.

I guess that's where we disagree. If someone told me they found the action scenes distracting I'd disagree the same way.


But putting your own sexual interests into your work for no other reason than "why not" can only lead further to the sexual perversion problems I've already mentioned. There's a difference between liking female legs and 4-year old octopus girls.

I don't think art changes people's sexuality like that.
And 4-year old octopus girls, besides not being real, won't attract anyone who doesn't already have out of the norm tastes/disorder. Art definitely doesn't make someone a pedophile, if that's the implication.

But those extreme cases are really different anyway from what Anno has in his work, or from probably most fanservice.
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Re: How do you feel about grown ups watching anime?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Nov 07, 2020 7:42 am

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:Edit:
Also you could argue artists putting fanservice where they want is the opposite of sexual repression and healthy in some way, but honestly that's not my field lol

I wanted to briefly touch on this, because I think there's actually some letigmeacy to this claim. I said once before that it would almost feel like gaslighting the audience if filmmakers constantly treated the natural desire for sex as something that was taboo, or otherwise constantly frame sexually curious or active teens as being as being "just plain weird." (Sex can't be taboo, that's the only way we know to spawn future generations!) The trick is to do that without coming off as being exploitative, and that's become an increasingly difficult topic to approach in America. The problem is that many Christian-influenced cultures got their sexual education from Saint Augustine, who was a recovering sex addict and probably needed to place some very strict boundaries in his life in order to lead a healthy life-style. (Kinda like how many recovering alcoholics need to stay away from booze at all costs, while it's not a problem for those not addicted to alcohol to socially drink.) The problem came when either he or those who trusted him decided that his stricter/harsher-than-usual personal moral fences around the subject of sex should be a universal feature of a "sophisticated" society, and not just a subjective safeguard that people could decide whether or not it was necessary for them. (I'm telling you, if the God of the Christian Bible thought that sex was as taboo as many American Christians like to think it is, then the Bible would discuss the topic in far more detail than it does. Instead, many Christians find themselves cherry-picking and re-contextualizing Scripture in order to magically "find" Augustine's personal moral convictions somewhere in the Testaments.)

I don't want to side-line this topic to "WhAt doEs the bIblE saY abOut doInG tHe naStY?" but I do think that at least that bit of historical context in many Christian-influenced cultures is important to understanding why people feel as weird as they do about the depiction of sex in media.
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Re: How do you feel about grown ups watching anime?

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Postby Justacrazyguy » Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:58 pm

Fanservice can't be pointless if the audience or creator likes it. It didn't just go into anime by mistake. It's there because it's supposed to and I can point to plenty of anime where fanservice improves the experience for me.
I don't even need to go very far. If Evangelion wasn't about attractive teenagers and adults I wouldn't like it nearly as much. This may be controversial, but I like watching pretty people, so I very much prefer when the characters in anime I watch are drawn to be pleasing to the eye. And if there is fanservice of them, that makes me quite pleased as well, unless it undermines some dramatic point or situation, witch is something that rarely happens to me. I sure am happy that Evangelion comes packaged with action and fanservice and is also a fantastic work of art.

There's a difference between liking female legs and 4-year old octopus girls


The difference is that you don't like one of them. Unless someone here can actually prove weird fetishes are bad for your mental health, I don't think anyone should feel superior because their taste in sexuality is bland.
Plenty of fanservice anime are actually quite good ways of indulging in your fetishes. It doesn't involve real people, so it can't arm anyone and it's a creative medium that allows pretty much anything, so even if you happen to have some sexual idea that isn't even possible in real life, there almost certainly is some anime or drawn stuff that can please you.

I'm kind of going a little of topic, but I think not indulging in your desires and keeping them strictly separated from the medium you enjoy, isolating them only on porn or imagination, is probably far more harmful than indulging a bit too much in it.

I'm quoting Zusuchan, but this is just what came to my mind as I read this last page, it's not meant as a answer to any of you in particular.
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Re: How do you feel about grown ups watching anime?

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Postby Zusuchan » Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:51 am

kuribo-04: As a mod, I would like it if you were to lessen the amount of omnislashing in your posts. Try to discuss the general points of posts you're replying to and use quotes only when you consider them truly necessary. Thanks.

Discussing what you said now, well, I never said I didn't understand what Anno thinks, it's just that personally I see a hole in how he's able to reach such a plausible antiescapism argument and then somehow take fanservice out of the equation. I'm not arguing with you about Anno's views on fanservice. I agree that for him fanservice itself isn't the problem, but for me fanservice can only ever be a part of the problem-it seems for me to be it by design. I'm not going to answer to all your other arguments, because Anno's views on fanservice as its own entity are known to not be negative already.

Talking about your stances on art and sexuality, I once again disagree. I'm inclined to agree that currently the people who fantasize about 4-year octopus girls already had such inclinations before. But the more and more this goes on, the more and more the line grows thinner between those who already had the inclinations and those who developed them through 'consuming' (I hate that word, but I can't think of anything better right now) the entertainment that plays to those desires. If 7-year-olds discover a harem loli anime, is it really plausible to state that they won't be influenced by it in whatever way? I think they will and this will play a role in their sexuality and how they approach it. Art doesn't change people's sexuality in any sort of truly huge radical way, but it can mold it and it has shown signs of doing so. You can argue that the 4-year-old octopus girls aren't real, but that does not in any way take out the perverted part about fantasizing in such stuff. It still shows pedophiliac and out-of-the-norm sexual interests and the more we get stuff that plays to those interests unironically, the more we're going to get people like that. By changing younger people, you inevitably ultimately change society. And I've already gone through why I consider that to be bad.

Considering Anno's inspirations, it's true that they're not exactly what can be qualified as "high art" and I guess I was wrong in that sense, but I still doubt Anno likes self-indulging anime, especially now that he's older-a justified concern considering how much the generic anime shamelessly copy-pastes from older, better works and still somehow ends up relatively popular and commercially viable.

The interview that you gave also doesn't mean much as Anno only says that he made a robot anime because it's a genre that many want to fund without a lot of further questions asked. Mecha was intensely popular during these days, to the point of most television anime basically being mecha. It's not like Anno said: "Here, I'm going to do a cheap knock-off mecha because it's commercial!" The very fact that NGE was always intended to be darker and more psychological should say "no" to those concerns and only his Cutie Honey work speaks of some kind of commerce, but even then, as you said, he was a fan of the original work, so his reasons for making his own versions had to do with something deeper than just money. Kare Kano, which he specifically did because otherwise Gainax would have been screwed as a company, still was extremely Anno and he worked hard on that and was even perhaps saddened and angry at having to change the plot because of the manga author's inability to understand his original plot sucked. Anno is an artistic dude. He's just about incapable of doing stuff for money. A further illustration-after EoE's success (in itself a completely untraditional mecha film that wouldn't be out of place in the oeuvre of an extremely New Wave French filmmaker who'd give Godard a run for his money), his first intentions were to go ahead and make a scrappy, cinema verite experimental live-action film based on a Ryu Murakami novel about compensated dating. Some of the things he does are designed for more commercial viability, yes, but he doesn't ever do anything just for money, especially an actual artwork from him.

FreakyFilmFan4ever: I don't disagree with anything you said, but I don't think any of what you said exactly discusses indulging in perverted stuff anyway, so...shrug. After all, there's a difference between saying sex exists and it's a nice possibility and watching perverted harem anime.

Justacrazyguy: Fanservice can be pointless for the audience if it doesn't add anything and is meaningless in the larger scale of things. Hypothetical question: would you consider NGE having a beach episode that adds nothing to the story and only exists for nice fluff and sexualized shots of women, would you consider that pointless or not? Things don't have a point in art because the artist(s) put them there, but because they add something valuable.

Also, weird fetishes are harmful to society as a whole, a viewpoint which I have expressed. People shouldn't indulge in their fetishes, but attempt to grow out of them in some way. I see no problem with being honest about sexual deviances and perversions and keeping them hidden on a societal basis is bad, but just constantly indulging in them and not attempting to grow out of them is too.

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Re: How do you feel about grown ups watching anime?

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Postby Shamsiel-kun » Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:10 am

View Original Postsilvermoonlight wrote:I recommend taking a look back 80's and early 90's as the first anime which came out before things like Evangelion was Ghost In the Shell, Akira, Legend of the over friend, Wicked City and Demon City all these were not aimed at kids they were aimed at the 18 and 15 audiences some are brutal bloody and hardcore, that was why they were a shock to western audiences on first landing as they weren't used to open nudity sex or violence where peoples guts got blown out as that had been in horror only at that point.


This even lead to problems in countries where anime had been shown on TV for years. France got series such as Fist of the North Star and Saint Seiya broadcast uncensored at first, in children's TV blocks aimed at younger kids because they were used to all other anime being more cutesy (so those popular shonen series should be alright too, eh? Not a chance that there's bloody violence in them, despite being fighting series...).
In the 1990s, French publisher Glenat decided to ride on the Pokemon wave, bought a cute mons series called Naru Taru and started bringing out the volumes in their imprint aimed at young children. Needless to say it was never finished when they realized the cute mons were in reality murderous creatures that fought each other with much bloody violence, their masters were deranged teenagers, and later volumes included graphic underage sex and family-unfriendly deaths :cringe: . Years later it was brought out again, this time under their new Seinen label and with appropriate warnings, uncensored AFAIK.
During the same period of the Naru Taru fiasco various other Japanese series got quite a bit of negative attention in France due to excessive violence or borderline pornographic contents, which mostly was the fault of the publishers who had wrongly assumed most anime and manga was aimed at children. Fortunately, this turned around over time and publishers began bringing out series in more appropriate age brackets (basically copying the Japanese classification). Sometimes series still get moved to different age brackets, sometimes wrongly. Hentai has made a timid new appearance in the last few years, although it gets limited to the huge breasts variants for obvious reasons (which ironically may mean you'll find more underage nudity or fanservice in series aimed at younger audiences... :facepalm: ).

What also didn't help was that certain publishers (Manga Entertainment in the UK...) decided that controversy was good publicity and made dubs that basically consisted almost entirely of profanity - often resulting in dubs that were more hardcore in the West than the original was in Japan.

Personally I remember raising an eyebrow and being a bit shocked when watching Serial Experiments Lain for the first time back in the early 2000nds, where during one episode a female teenage high school character rather explicitly masturbates to a fantasy of her teacher. No naughty bits are shown, but it's fairly obvious what she is doing. That was my "Wow, so anime really are different"-moment.
Of course Lain is a Seinen series, and back in that time it was being sold as a series for children in my country (which, considering the themes, is a rather major fuckup...).

View Original PostJustacrazyguy wrote:I'm quoting Blockio but take this as a reply to Zusuchan as well.


But people project nonsense into all the anime and media they consume.

To put it in a simple way, lots of people like Cute girls do cute things anime. I find most of it boring nonsense, but there are some that I enjoy, and it goes from very wholesome stuff to fanservice parties.
Now, a couple of these shows go so far into the safe zone that they create that they even remove all male characters from the anime, I guess an attempt to remove threatening elements to the viewer. I find that quite twisted. Those would be the closest I can find to anime that cater to "fucked up fantasies".


That's an option, but there also is another reason. Are you acquainted with the term "yuri"? Some series are all about cute girls doing cute things...with each other (in all senses of the words). Most of those don't go much beyond lovey-dovey stuff and subtext, but some are very explicit. Of course, there also are genres using only males (no females to be seen) that are mostly aimed at the opposite sex audience, and in my opinion those often contain character types that are much further up the "fucked up fantasies"-scale than most yuri series (e.g. the Bastard Boyfriend, also found in some shitty shojo romance series, the kind of abusive predator that you'd love to beat up with a baseball bat in real life).

View Original PostZusuchan wrote:Sexual repression is bad in my view as well. But putting your own sexual interests into your work for no other reason than "why not" can only lead further to the sexual perversion problems I've already mentioned. There's a difference between liking female legs and 4-year old octopus girls.


According to this 4-year old octopus girls should be legal. Although I've never seen a humanoid octopus in real life... :tongue:
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Re: How do you feel about grown ups watching anime?

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Postby silvermoonlight » Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:00 am

View Original PostShamsiel-kun wrote:This even lead to problems in countries where anime had been shown on TV for years. France got series such as Fist of the North Star and Saint Seiya broadcast uncensored at first, in children's TV blocks aimed at younger kids because they were used to all other anime being more cutesy (so those popular shonen series should be alright too, eh? Not a chance that there's bloody violence in them, despite being fighting series...).
In the 1990s, French publisher Glenat decided to ride on the Pokemon wave, bought a cute mons series called Naru Taru and started bringing out the volumes in their imprint aimed at young children. Needless to say it was never finished when they realized the cute mons were in reality murderous creatures that fought each other with much bloody violence, their masters were deranged teenagers, and later volumes included graphic underage sex and family-unfriendly deaths :cringe: . Years later it was brought out again, this time under their new Seinen label and with appropriate warnings, uncensored AFAIK.
During the same period of the Naru Taru fiasco various other Japanese series got quite a bit of negative attention in France due to excessive violence or borderline pornographic contents, which mostly was the fault of the publishers who had wrongly assumed most anime and manga was aimed at children. Fortunately, this turned around over time and publishers began bringing out series in more appropriate age brackets (basically copying the Japanese classification). Sometimes series still get moved to different age brackets, sometimes wrongly. Hentai has made a timid new appearance in the last few years, although it gets limited to the huge breasts variants for obvious reasons (which ironically may mean you'll find more underage nudity or fanservice in series aimed at younger audiences... :facepalm: )


This reminds me of the 4kids/Toonami issue in that some cuts were laughable like replacing cigarettes with lollipops or the huge gaff where they tried to hide that Sailor Neptune and Sailor Uranus are gay and made them cousins but everyone just read it as they're doing each other. Or they tried to cut out things but the editing was so bad the audience could tell or some cuts were so bad they derailed the series as it meant cutting whole story lines.

So the cutting and editing on anime can really create its own set of problems and I think the aiming at children in the 2000's was the studios in the west being knee-deep in this idea that all cartoons are for children when anime isn't some is purely for adults and teens. I also agree about Manga Entertainment that was a huge double-edged sword and led to some really awful dubs.

The first anime of the 2000's that generally turned my stomach was Elfen lied because it was trying to do what Legend of the Overfiend did and go all humans are shitty but Overfiend pulls this off in its final act by going yeah humans are shitty but now all three races are gonna be wiped out by the Destroyer Of Worlds so does the Overfiend have a point and maybe a fresh start is better since we see on screen the worst all three races have to offer? Elfen lied utterly fails to pull off such a hat trick in my view and none of its characters are salvageable and it's not making any points its violence for the sake of violence.
Last edited by silvermoonlight on Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:58 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: How do you feel about grown ups watching anime?

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Postby Justacrazyguy » Sun Nov 08, 2020 12:43 pm

View Original PostZusuchan wrote:
Justacrazyguy: Fanservice can be pointless for the audience if it doesn't add anything and is meaningless in the larger scale of things. Hypothetical question: would you consider NGE having a beach episode that adds nothing to the story and only exists for nice fluff and sexualized shots of women, would you consider that pointless or not? Things don't have a point in art because the artist(s) put them there, but because they add something valuable.

Also, weird fetishes are harmful to society as a whole, a viewpoint which I have expressed. People shouldn't indulge in their fetishes, but attempt to grow out of them in some way. I see no problem with being honest about sexual deviances and perversions and keeping them hidden in a societal basis is bad, but just constantly indulging in them and not attempting to grow out of them is too.


A few episodes in Evangelion are mostly just cool looking fights with bit of character development inserted in. No show is ever comprised of only stuff that advances the Story in a straightforward manner. Obviously, an episode dedicated entirely to fanservice would be excessive, but I don't judge an episodes quality by how it serves the bigger plot.
The problem is that what is valuable in a show is very subjective. What I may consider worthless may be the very reason someone likes some anime or other media. That's why I tend to avoid calling anything pointless, because I risk devaluing something that may mean everything to the artist or viewer.

I simply cannot agree with you on the fetishes. People don't just grow out of them like old pieces of clothes, they are an essential part of you, many times reflections of your personality, and attempting to suppress will just harm you, in my opinion. Again, I'd change my mind if I ever saw some fetish actually harm society, but that remains the stuff of hypotheticals to me.
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Re: How do you feel about grown ups watching anime?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:13 pm

View Original Postsilvermoonlight wrote:This reminds me of the 4kids/Toonami issue in that some cuts were laughable like replacing cigarettes will lollipops


Or finger guns in Yugioh.

I agree through, some censorships are highly unnecessary.

And back at the issue at hand, there are plenty of guys in their 20’s or 30’s who thinks some female characters in various shows are attractive in looks, who also happens to be teenagers. See the issue there?

Like the Sailor Scouts for example; I’m sure some of you have seen some lewd stuff about them in some fan works. I think that was one of the problems Anno was trying to address, and Miyazaki as well.

Speaking of Miyazaki, I came across one article where he expresses his issues with some female voice actresses, mainly on how they sound. And that’s just one of his issues, such as one problem being that it’s filled with anime fans.
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Re: How do you feel about grown ups watching anime?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:44 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:And back at the issue at hand, there are plenty of guys in their 20’s or 30’s who thinks some female characters in various shows are attractive in looks, who also happens to be teenagers. See the issue there?

Yeah, but we really can't "thought police" people. Like, sure, grown-ass adults being horny for 14-year-old illustrated characters can be concerning under certain contexts, but there's no real way to thought police everyone into compliance with Western "Age of Consent" patterns. I mean, it wouldn't be fair to ban all children's/teenagers media from adult consumption. (I love Kiki's Delivery Service and Neon Genesis Evangelion too much for that!)

At the end of the day, people are gonna do or think whatever they want to do or think, and the best thing you can do is decide whether or not you want to associate with someone who's been giving off creepy, unnerving vibes. I hosted a couple different Anime Clubs over the past decade, and for one of them a couple of teenage girls from a church youth group decided to attend the one we were holding at that particular church. They attended more and more often, which was great for attendance and growing the community and fandom, and you'd think that holding this club at a church would help dissuade any weird, creepy, sexual stuff, right? Well, that wasn't entirely the case. One of the adult male attendees ended up flirting on the teenage girls (I say "flirting on" and not "flirting with" as they didn't seem receptive to his advancements), and we had to take some action in order to make sure everyone still felt comfortable meeting at this place. Me and my co-host acted quickly, so there wasn't any emotional/physical victims to speak of or anything like that, but it was still a thing we had to keep our eye out for and moderate accordingly.

So, ya know, whether or not an adult demographic should watch something is entirely different from how an adult individual decides to watch something, or what other motives they might have for associating with teenage-centered media. All of the other male adults were perfectly fine at that meetup watching teenage-centric anime with a couple teenagers in the audience, but that one dude had to become a problem we had to deal with.
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Re: How do you feel about grown ups watching anime?

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Postby kuribo-04 » Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:09 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:Speaking of Miyazaki, I came across one article where he expresses his issues with some female voice actresses, mainly on how they sound. And that’s just one of his issues, such as one problem being that it’s filled with anime fans.

Yeah, he implied they were "selling themselves" and honestly it's one of the more sexist and worse things Miyazaki has said.

Like the Sailor Scouts for example; I’m sure some of you have seen some lewd stuff about them in some fan works. I think that was one of the problems Anno was trying to address, and Miyazaki as well.


If you mean the Sailor Moon characters , they were specifically made to "look sexy" according to creator Naoko Takeuchi. Is this somehow immoral? Is she a pedophile? No, obviously. The characters aren't real. They exist in a pseudo-reality.

Most teens in anime don't seem like actual teens anyway. I'd mention Gridman as an example where the characters felt their age, and still those characters were made to look attractive, with Trigger selling official body pillows and stuff. Is that somehow evil? No. The characters aren't real. Their designs and their age/behaviour etc. are different elements coming together to form a whole.

I think debating if lolicon stuff is morally wrong is the only thing worth a debate. And even there it's hard to come to an objective answer, regardless of how icky it might make you feel.

Edit: Found this pic of Anno fighting anime sexualization with all his might:
SPOILER: Show
Image
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Re: How do you feel about grown ups watching anime?

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Postby The Killer of Heroes » Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:21 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:and you'd think that holding this club at a church would help dissuade any weird, creepy, sexual stuff, right?
Uh Freaky my man, if this statement was intended without any irony than I have some bad news for you about weird sexual stuff and the church.

Like it sounds like you handled situation the right way but it happening even though it was at a church is literally the least surprising thing in the universe to me.
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Re: How do you feel about grown ups watching anime?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:46 pm

^ Oh, I’m fully aware of that, but I’m also aware of the myriad of puritanical, potentially angry mothers who would threaten to burn the whole damn building down if they found out their teen was so much as sexually aware on church property during an event I was hosting, say nothing of having to deal with creepy dudes.
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Re: How do you feel about grown ups watching anime?

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Postby Zusuchan » Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:27 am

Justacrazyguy: No work of art is ever only composed of 'plot' and anything that propels the story forward in a straightforward manner, but the best works of art consist at least 95% of something that is actually necessary for the larger work. The operative word here is "story", not "plot"-the latter only has very specific events in its mind, while "story" encompasses most everything that is needed for logical conclusions. The plot of NGE's first episode can be boiled down to: "Shinji arrives in Tokyo-3 with Misato, meets Ritsuko, Rei and his father. His father, Gendo, then baits him into piloting the mecha against the recently arrived Angel." The story is far wider and encompassing and takes into account various smaller details that are important for the natural flow of events, but wouldn't be considered necessary for a breakdown of the plot. Basically, the plot is the Wikipedia plot synopsis, whereas the story is the actual work itself. There's a wide margin of difference between these two things.

It also works with your mention of NGE's episodes that are all about "cool looking fights with a bit of character development". But this character development is intensely important. Ep.7, a more generic action episode when compared to the previous six episodes before it, is still important to the overarching story of NGE, because it shows Shinji learning to trust and appreciate Misato fully and offers a glimpse at the dark, shady inner workings of NERV. Ep.8 may seem like a generic action episode, but it also introduces Asuka and Kaji and quickly hints at various important things. Ep.9 shows Shinji and Asuka working together, making development, etc. The point is that one could reasonably take the entire Action Arc (episodes 7-13) together and bundle them up as "the three pilots work together and kill a bunch of Angels", but just skipping those episodes would seriously hinder the NGE experience, because they feature a lot of character development and important details-one could even argue that their more lightweight tone only serves to make NGE's later episodes all the more horrifying.

Fan service is something that could work for the story, but for the most part it doesn't. It's there, it's pointless, it adds absolutely nothing actually relevant to the show.

I simply cannot agree with you on the fetishes. People don't just grow out of them like old pieces of clothes, they are an essential part of you, many times reflections of your personality, and attempting to suppress will just harm you, in my opinion. Again, I'd change my mind if I ever saw some fetish actually harm society, but that remains the stuff of hypotheticals to me.


I'm sorry-my wording should have been clearer. Obviously one can't just "grow out" of a psychological deviance. What I meant was that the people who have them should attempt to get better-not by repressing them, but by seeking (professional) help, engaging with a wider variety of culture that isn't as deviant as those works that only play on the deviances, etc.

Also, fetishes haven't harmed society? Seriously? I guess you're just waiting for some kind of extremely concrete proof of that, but the rise of fetishes worldwide has already started harming society seriously-a larger and larger generation of people who ignore the magnificent well of information globally available to just...stay in their comforting cycles of cheap self-gratification, barely doing anything truly useful to society as a whole (and I believe that just going to work and even donating to charity every once in a while doesn't count-the world is too far gone for such small things to actually make an important difference on a wider scale) and uttering in even more psychological deviances for younger people. You'll never find concrete proof, but it's there.

kuribo-04: I don't understand how what Miyazaki said counts as misogynist. Care to elaborate?

Also, I get it-Anno is not personally against fanservice. I thought I'd already made it clear I understood that.

Shamsiel-kun: Lain as a children's show? That's a major fuck-up alright. Even without the heady themes, it's such a complex, puzzle-like work.

Edit:
You'll never find concrete proof, but it's there.

I should probably add that this proof being there is part of my own particular worldview-it is something that hasn't been scientifically proven in any way and largely depends on my own observations and ideas/morals/personal philosophies et cetera. So if you don't see the proof, then well, that's a valid belief. But personally I see a constant overbarrage of pointlessness, particularly around fanservice.

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Re: How do you feel about grown ups watching anime?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:18 am

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:I think debating if lolicon stuff is morally wrong is the only thing worth a debate. And even there it's hard to come to an objective answer, regardless of how icky it might make you feel.

That's part of the issue I find with the "they're only drawings" argument. It's an accurate description, and no actual children were harmed in the creation of anime lolicon images, but once you take away the power of art by dismissing it as "only drawing," you lose all grounds to rationalize what is and is not healthy in art. I agree that all answers about this issue will be found in some degree of subjectivity, so the only answer I feel comfortable making is that if any form of sexual depiction in art feels or is otherwise proven to be exploitative or harmful to actual people, then I tend to reject them.

My issues with many forms of fan service is simply a pacing issue. The examples I've found in SSSS Gridman were actually quite innocuous within terms of pacing, and didn't harm the flow of the narrative in any way. Also, again, it's an anime made for teens in order to appeal to teens, and most teens are sexually aware. The inclusion of fan service in SSSS Gridman was natural and flowed with the story. It's the non-hentai anime that stops dead in its tracks just to ogle at nudes/half-nudes for minutes at a time that annoys me. I guess I think that, if fan service is going to placed within the context of a show, then it should actually have something to do with the rest of the show, whether it's viewed in a positive or a negative light. The Asuka fan service in Eva 2.22 I find helps build up the light-hearted, humorous tine in the first half of the film before it begins to express vulnerability towards the middle of the film. The final bit is the test suit, where she is viewed again as being vulnerable before being attacked by an Angel. Could Anno have used other ways of expressing comedy and vulnerability? Sure, I guess. But then we wouldn't have a basis for Shinji's sexual frustrations throughout the series. (There's a more intense argument over whether or not these examples of fan service feed into the disproportional amount of male gaze throughout anime/film as a whole, and while I tend to agree with those sentiments, I really can't blame many individual anime directors for expressing that gaze. The real answer is more women in the industry, balancing things out with their own gaze on sexuality. More voices, not less voices.)

I generally stay away from hentai, so I cannot speak towards that genre as fully as I can other genres.
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Re: How do you feel about grown ups watching anime?

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Postby dzzthink » Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:58 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:
I don't want to side-line this topic to "WhAt doEs the bIblE saY abOut doInG tHe naStY?" but I do think that at least that bit of historical context in many Christian-influenced cultures is important to understanding why people feel as weird as they do about the depiction of sex in media.


'Then our evil desires conceive and give birth to sin; and sin, when it is full grown, gives birth to death. Do not be deceived, my dear friends!' - James 1:14

I would say is pretty explicit in the Bible, Confuciusism, philosophy and throughout the world as a warning that there is a form of unhealthy sexual depravity. This does not suggest we should necessarily to cencor it, but have a general awareness of its impact. I think there is a mix of people who either indulge in or condemn types of anime that strays from social norms and as Zusuchan mentions we could all better ourselves by 'engaging with a wider variety of culture that isn't as deviant as those works that only play on the deviances, etc'. However, it doesn't help that anime has content that seems normal on the outset that people enjoy for a while but then rapidly devolves into some disturbing blood-stained sleaze-fest. For instance, I can't believe that Blood C (rating of 15+) and School days became that violent in the end. Going to such extremes is of poor taste. I think viewing the characters as overwrought, exaggerated and oversexualised for the most part doesn't necessarily detract from the overall quality of the anime if it is used as maybe a comedic tool, but it does seem rather forced sometimes, to the point that veers off the realm of cultural and societal sensibilities

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Re: How do you feel about grown ups watching anime?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:15 pm

^ I see what you’re saying, but I probably wouldn’t use that verse to describe certain depictions of sex, violence, or fan service. No where in that passage does to mention art, which brings its own contexts to the subjects it depicts. Also, even outside of art, I wouldn’t call the actions depicted in a typical beach episode or sex scene “evil.” Sure, it could be argued that some of the characters are being maybe a little foolish or are potentially making unwise decisions (which honestly makes the episodes more engaging because those things usually incite dramatic, compelling stories), but none of that is evil.

Also, putting everything back in the real world for a minute here, the specific action really being discussed in this thread is “adults watching (sometimes sexy) Japanese cartoons.” Setting aside the “evil” connotations of the verse, if the desire is “to watch (sometimes sexy) Japanese cartoons” begins to grow, then that just means watching even MOAR (sometimes even a little more explicitly sexy) Japanese cartoons. This growing action of watching Japanese cartoons, if left unchecked, can be obsessive, unhealthy, and self-destructive in the more severe cases, but it’s not “evil.” At the time of James’ writings, there were plenty of statues of Greek and Roman gods and goddesses doing all sorts of sexy things in various states of undress, and not once does James, Peter, or even Paul write about the action of admiring these risqué works of art littered throughout their environments. Those writings tend to be more focused on people interacting with each other in ways that are healthy and wholesome, and don’t really address whatever drawings on parchment scrolls people might have kept tucked under their beds.
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