Is no one bothered by the sexualization of the characters in EVA?

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Re: Is no one bothered by the sexualization of the characters in EVA?

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Postby Blockio » Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:03 pm

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:But I'm not particularly bothered by the sexualization, so.

Not sure I ever actually answered the leading question of this; I'm in much of the same camp. I don't care much for fanservice either way, unless it's actively disruptive to the flow of events I often times don't even consciously register it being there
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Re: Is no one bothered by the sexualization of the characters in EVA?

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:07 pm

View Original PostBlockio wrote:You'd be hard-pressed to call Gunbuster "the most fanservice-y" even back when it originally aired, but it is certainly more racy than Eva, that much is true

Note that I said "that I've ever seen." I'm not a big fan of ultra-racy stuff typically, so I haven't seen much of it.

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Re: Is no one bothered by the sexualization of the characters in EVA?

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Postby baldur » Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:45 pm

Archer wrote:There’s definitely this weird impression in the English-speaking anime fandom that Anno is some sort of Miyazaki Jr who openly states his disdain for anime and anime fans which I’m pretty sure is derived from poorly translated interview snippets being taken out of context.

I mean, I definitely think there's some truth to the idea. He obviously doesn't hate anime or otakus but he's often rather critical of them, which is reflected in his work. So I think the "Anno hates otakus" meme is fairly understandable. But yeah, he's clearly not actively disdainful and not everything he does is about subverting anime tropes or something.

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Re: Is no one bothered by the sexualization of the characters in EVA?

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Postby LazyPOS » Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:23 am

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:Yep, already pointed that out in another thread. Gunbuster is probably the most fanservicey anime I've ever seem. So fanservicey that it has to get a mature content rating, even though there's nothing offensive in the entire rest of the show.


Well, Gunbuster is an OVA. They have less restrictions than TV anime. And by the time of EoE when Eva didn't have to adhere to those restrictions, there was no place for fanservice. At least not for the the fanservice the viewer would enjoy.

Anyhow, Eva fanservice never bothered me because:
1.) I'm conditioned by anime to ignore most of fanservice. Unless it's too blatant, OOC, or if the show is 90% fanservice
2.) I'm a Slav, so I guess we have higher tolerance to casual nudity than the US

Around two thirds of fanservice in Eva is used to make you uncomfortable, like Rei groping at the beginning of the show, or that flash of bra in the when Asuka is "flirting" with Kaji, or is so short that you sometimes have to rewatch to notice it, and doesn't distract from what's happening on the screen, like Wall of Jericho scene.

In NGE, I don't remember of anything as stupid as bunch of sexposition in GoT, or that Rin/Shirou/Saber threesome in F/SN VN. The worse moment in the show is hot springs at the end of the Magma diver, but it's not that terrible.

And I'm now going off-topic, but I find more insulting the way Hollywood trivialized the horrors of war in a lot of their action and war movies, than any over the top fanservice in Japanese media

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Re: Is no one bothered by the sexualization of the characters in EVA?

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Postby Blockio » Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:51 am

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:Note that I said "that I've ever seen." I'm not a big fan of ultra-racy stuff typically, so I haven't seen much of it.

Fair enough.
I can see why Gendo hired Misato to do the actual commanding. He tried it once and did an appalling job. ~ AWinters
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What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
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Re: Is no one bothered by the sexualization of the characters in EVA?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:54 pm

View Original Postbaldur wrote:
View Original PostArcher wrote:There’s definitely this weird impression in the English-speaking anime fandom that Anno is some sort of Miyazaki Jr who openly states his disdain for anime and anime fans which I’m pretty sure is derived from poorly translated interview snippets being taken out of context.

I mean, I definitely think there's some truth to the idea. He obviously doesn't hate anime or otakus but he's often rather critical of them, which is reflected in his work. So I think the "Anno hates otakus" meme is fairly understandable. But yeah, he's clearly not actively disdainful and not everything he does is about subverting anime tropes or something.

Sorry if I’m going off topic here. Just what is Anno’s and Miyazaki’s problems with the media and industry to begin with? They usually seem critical of other works besides their own, so what gives?
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Re: Is no one bothered by the sexualization of the characters in EVA?

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Postby Lavinius » Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:09 am

...has Samson/Marie from Nadia been brought into the conversation yet?
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Re: Is no one bothered by the sexualization of the characters in EVA?

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Postby Zusuchan » Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:24 am

^ I don't think so, no. Why, are you interested in discussing it? Well, I'd say that's a problematic relationship, but I'm not certain it's really a good example of sexualization as much as it just is of, well, Anno having interesting ideas about how big of an age gap is permissible between two partners in a romantic relationship, if that. (Now, Grandis, Nadia and Electra were indeed the victims of some sexualization, however...)

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Re: Is no one bothered by the sexualization of the characters in EVA?

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Postby silvermoonlight » Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:40 am

View Original PostLavinius wrote:...has Samson/Marie from Nadia been brought into the conversation yet?


Why it's not sexualizing its out right grooming since it's a grown ass man marrying a little kid. Like I know this is due to it being a product of its time, and it's not the only anime off this time frame to have problematic issues, but it doesn't make it any better either way.
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Re: Is no one bothered by the sexualization of the characters in EVA?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:04 pm

It's made even weirder by the image of preggers Marie. But that one bit is literally bookended by such sheer perfection that I can't gather the energy to be mad about it. That graphic match shot Marie initiates with the model airplane....

so good.

Makes me feel nostalgic for characters I saw literally 5 minutes ago.
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Re: Is no one bothered by the sexualization of the characters in EVA?

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Postby Fantasia » Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:28 pm

Maybe someone can give their opinion on this to me, but here's my thoughts on the sexual themes present in at least NGE+EoE.


Most of the time when sexual situations are present on screen, its not really to flatter the viewer with eye candy, more often than not its supposed to be uncomfortable or to serve as a thematic device for the story, even if minor.

An example of this is Asuka flaunting her breasts and teasing Shinji in E10, which does seem like just weird fanservice, but as the show goes on a viewer will learn that these actions of Asuka are a way of her aggressively posturing herself in life as a way of making herself seem more mature; that she doesn't want to be seen like a child given the traumatic experiences with her mother, so she does a variety of forward, intimate, and sexual acts throughout the show to give herself the veil of maturity, its the same reason why she kept trying to come onto Kaji. And secondly, its a way for her to satisfy her own insecurities of being wanted by someone and feel love without abandonment, as she does try to make moves on Shinji after her rejections by Kaji. On Shinji's side it also helps emphasize both his hatred of self, which makes him believe that nobody would really care about him and subsequently his inability to grasp the feelings of those around him. This theming also nearly plays exactly the same in the kiss scene in E15.

Much of the sexual scenes in the show/movie follow at least some relevance to the development of the characters and the overarching themes, except two.

The hotspring scene in E10 just feels very typical for the industry. I feel like the only "meaningful" thing that came out of it was the reveal of Misato's scar, but that didn't require the awkward scene of Shinji listening in on Asuka/Misato playing around. I can't really think of anything that the scene really does that wasn't established. We already know that Shinji has at least some interest in Asuka, and arguably something for Misato given the weird metaphysical sex during Instrumentality. So- that playing around between Asuka/Misato really irks me as just soft yuri bait for fans.

The other is the scene in which Shinji visits Rei in E5. Having him comically trip and land on nude Rei, having her underwear spill everywhere across them and the floor with his hand resting on her breast, its laughably cliche, but it doesn't seem to serve any purpose. I've heard some real big stretches when it comes to finding some metaphorical meaning in that scene, but I haven't been able to buy anything. Its literally textbook fanservice that happens in about every highschool anime ever made, and it doesn't particularly establish anything with what it does. Is it that Rei seems distant and in her own world, unphased by the circumstances with Shinji atop her? Well, thats pretty well established in just about the rest of the show aside a few select scenes. I can't really pull any strings on this, its just weird.


Aside from these two questionably fan-servicey scenes (Maybe someone can convince me otherwise), I think about all other intimate encounters serve a purpose of the plot, and Evangelion handles it quite well and respectfully. You aren't really mean to gawk at it, its a narrative device, not an arousal device. So it doesn't make me particularly uncomfortable, its not framed as if its something I'm supposed to get pleasure from. Sexuality doesn't magically appear when someone turns 18, so I don't have an issue with it respectfully being used in a show like Evangelion.

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Re: Is no one bothered by the sexualization of the characters in EVA?

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Postby Archer » Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:11 am

I think the Rei scene is really easy to explain. It’s a play the usual ecchi tropes, but played out in an extremely awkward, uncomfortable and unsexy way.

The entire setup for the scene, with Misato and Ritsuko teasing Shinji about going to Rei’s apartment is supposed to make you think it’ll play out the way you expect, but Rei’s reaction (or lack thereof) turns it on its head. Maybe it doesn’t serve any purpose to the plot or character development, but it exists as a subversion of a common anime trope.

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Re: Is no one bothered by the sexualization of the characters in EVA?

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Postby Zusuchan » Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:51 am

The Rei scene does serve a narrative purpose-it crystallizes Rei as a cold, aloof, mysterious person who doesn't seem to care much about herself and doesn't understand "normal" interactions and it's a part of Shinji and Rei getting slightly closer. It featuring traditional ecchi anime tropes played out in a distinctly unawesome way adds to the mysterious feeling the scene is supposed to give off. The scene is arguably more cliche-y than perhaps necessary, but it's a vital part of the series nonetheless.

That said, there are certainly more than two instances of "pointless fan-service" in Eva.

SPOILER: Show
Image
Image

And so on. I think whether most of the pointless fanservice actively detracts from the work in our view is more of a discussion than whether or not Eva has fanservice-personally, I don't mind it much, since it never gets overboard, dies out after time and adds to the show's horny vibes, which it has a lot of.

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Re: Is no one bothered by the sexualization of the characters in EVA?

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:01 am

I think there's a ton of fanservice that exists for us to ogle the characters in the show, and I think... that's okay. I don't think it needs to be justified, it's part of what makes Evangelion Evangelion.

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Re: Is no one bothered by the sexualization of the characters in EVA?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:19 am

I'm not gonna be the creep that suggests that the mere presence of certain bits of fan service is important to visual aesthetics and tone or whatever, even if presented in a fun, playful way. That makes me sound like Joss Whedon directing Justice League, and nobody should want to sound like that. But I do appreciate how the characters are not built exclusively for fan service. Everyone is a fully developed character in Evangelion, and several aspects of their lives are portrayed throughout the series. Anno is a master at making sure there's a time for everything about his Eva characters. They have a time to laugh, a time to cry, a time to be incidentally/intentionally sexy, a time to be serious, a time to be horny teenagers, and a time to regret being horny teenagers. And, unlike the always-horny cinematography of Michael Bay's Transformers or the outright distillation to sexual-fetishization of the women of Joss Whedon's Justice League, no amount of ass shots can take that away from Anno's characters. Complain about them if you want, but their contextualization within the series doesn't take anything away from the characters. If anything, the sexual aspects of everyone in Eva, even the minors, only make them more relatable to the audience. We all were kids at one point, thinking that other kids were kinda hot, and Eva captures that moment perfectly.

What you do as a grown-ass adult when you pause certain scenes of teenagers is all your own fault. Don't do weird things while pausing an Eva movie.
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Re: Is no one bothered by the sexualization of the characters in EVA?

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Postby Archer » Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:54 am

FreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:What you do as a grown-ass adult when you pause certain scenes of teenagers is all your own fault. Don't do weird things while pausing an Eva movie.

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Re: Is no one bothered by the sexualization of the characters in EVA?

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:35 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:What you do as a grown-ass adult when you pause certain scenes of teenagers is all your own fault. Don't do weird things while pausing an Eva movie.

Hell, don't do weird things while pausing any movie, no matter the age of the characters. If you want to jack off, just watch porn.

But the "grown-ass adult" part doesn't really apply to me, since I watched the show at 15, and I'm 16 now. Which leads to some complicated questions: if someone finds teenage characters hot as a teenager, and then continue to find them hot as an adult, is that wrong? Does the agelessness of cartoon characters make debates over whether they're "legal" irrelevant? Do the Eva characters even look teenage enough for this to be a debate in the first place? It's a really messy situation.

PS: Glad to see Zusuchan is putting my collage of male-gazey moments in NGE to good use. It really is an excellent way to shut up people who insist that Eva has no real fanservice and that Anno hates sexualization.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:49 pm

^ I don't think anyone's here to be a thought police, dude. The best we can recommend is "Don't be a creep." Asuka, Rei, and Mari were certainly designed to be attractive, and while I can recognize the sexual themes explored with those characters, I personally don't feel comfortable thinking of those characters in a way that's sexually objectifying.
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Re: Is no one bothered by the sexualization of the characters in EVA?

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:05 pm

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:But the "grown-ass adult" part doesn't really apply to me, since I watched the show at 15, and I'm 16 now. Which leads to some complicated questions: if someone finds teenage characters hot as a teenager, and then continue to find them hot as an adult, is that wrong? Does the agelessness of cartoon characters make debates over whether they're "legal" irrelevant? Do the Eva characters even look teenage enough for this to be a debate in the first place? It's a really messy situation.

The conversation begins and ends with "they are not real people", but I'll humor the question!

I watched Evangelion when I was twelve. Asuka and Rei weren't just cute girls, they were cute older girls, and to a pre-teen/early teen straight boy, that's rrrhhghhhgbbblll.

The cute older girls always stay older than you in real life, but in anime you catch up to them real quick. There's always going to be a part of you that remembers being a horny teenager and liking these characters, and I think that's unavoidable. It's not the present-day you finding a fourteen-year old girl and saying "lol I'd like to tap that", the stupid teenager in you is going "wow I remember how hot and cute I thought she was, she's definitely still my waifu".

Then again, I still buy hentai of the teenage characters in anime I watch now, and I'm 23, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

TL;DR: anime girls aren't real and people who judge you for fapping to them are puritans.

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Re: Is no one bothered by the sexualization of the characters in EVA?

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Postby BernardoCairo » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:33 am

Sex is an important part of human life. Whether you like it or not, it dictates huge chunks of our lives and shapes the society around us. There are some who might even claim that humans exist only to sleep, eat and have sex. Anyway, considering Evangelion's nature as a series that revolves around the hurdles of communication, it's not surprising that sex plays an important role in the story (both visually and thematically).
If you think about it, sex is not something that can be placed inside of a box. I mean, it's definitely not uniform. Neon Genesis Evangelion is aware of this and explores a magnitude of different sexual relationships. It goes through sex that revolves around love, casual sex, abusive sex and so on. It's such an important element for many characters. It helps to shape Misato, Shinji, Ritsuko, Kaji, Asuka and even Gendo. Well, we're talking about a story whose main characters are teenagers. What would you even expect?
There is a couple in which two people clearly have romantic feelings for each other, but they just can't break the ice. There's another one in which a guy uses sex to control his partner. There is one in which two young adults truly love each other, but they can't take the next step. It's all over the place, it's extremely important to the narrative and it's intimately intertwined with sex.
That said, Evangelion uses sex to approach other themes as well. It's widely used to convey our nature as humans. Just take a look at Misato's case during episode 25. Katsuragi says she's tired of pretending to be "pure". She just wants to see herself "dirty". Right after that, there is an entire segment about her relationship with Kaji and we even see the two having sex.
Likewise, sex is used to portray our connection not only with God, but with our own mothers. The female body is so important and used in so many ways! From Ritsuko's perception of Naoko as a woman, to Yui breastfeeding Shinji. We all came from sex and the Third Impact sequence, for example, uses that to create its visuals. It is so powerful to see a divine creature being represented by a woman who is recovering her "children" and putting them back inside her "egg"! It's all about the mother figure!
In other words, no. It doesn't bother me. In fact, I believe that sexuality has everything to do with the core identity of the series. It's impossible for me to see Evangelion without it.
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