What happens with adam's soul during third impact

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What happens with adam's soul during third impact

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Postby orcot » Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:32 am

Like the question states, What do you believe happenend with adam's soul during the third impact.
I assume with the kaworu dummy plug being a thing theirs probably a vat somewhere with naked young boys. When Shinji popped kaworu, his soul probably was placed in one of these clone bodies.
So what happenend with him can Giant Naked Rei claim adam's soul she already had a part of his flesh trough Gendo at this time. I feel that she somehow did but don't feel that she was suppose to be able to.

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Re: What happens with adam's soul during third impact

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Postby Electreel » Sat Aug 08, 2020 4:44 pm

View Original Postorcot wrote:When Shinji popped kaworu, his soul probably was placed in one of these clone bodies.

That's assuming SEELE would have cared to re-salvage Adam's soul into a new Kaworu body, which would have essentially reversed the killing of the 17th Angel and set things back to square one.
can Giant Naked Rei claim adam's soul

Both Rei and Kaworu appear to Shinji at the end of Instrumentality, so that's most likely the case. It is unclear whether or not Adam's soul is an integral part of the GNR, though, since Kaworu's form only appears briefly. Maybe it had already migrated to the embryonized body in Gendo's hand after Kaworu's death and remained there dormant until it was absorbed by Rei/Lilith.

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Re: What happens with adam's soul during third impact

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Postby orcot » Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:48 pm

View Original PostElectreel wrote:That's assuming SEELE would have cared to re-salvage Adam's soul into a new Kaworu body, which would have essentially reversed the killing of the 17th Angel and set things back to square one.

I think they might If only to Ensure the continued development of their dummy plug program and perhaps to hear him out of what exactly happened at NERV.
View Original PostElectreel wrote:Both Rei and Kaworu appear to Shinji at the end of Instrumentality, so that's most likely the case. It is unclear whether or not Adam's soul is an integral part of the GNR, though, since Kaworu's form only appears briefly. Maybe it had already migrated to the embryonized body in Gendo's hand after Kaworu's death and remained there dormant until it was absorbed by Rei/Lilith.


Would have been fun to see what would have happened if Gendo scoped up Kaworu soul during the events of episode 24 and put him in a Rei (IV). Or fed adam(embryo) to Rei(IV) and then put Kaworu's soul into it leaving a mutated Rei that's partialy kaworu with kaworu's soul in it. Sometimes I wonder if a second season of 26 episodes with 13 alternative endings could be worked out, but then again the endings are pretty trippy. Have some where Gendo wins, Seele, Shinji,Asuka nobody heck even penpen

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Re: What happens with adam's soul during third impact

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Postby AWinters » Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:13 pm

I'm more confused about what happened to his body.
He's an embryo, yet they've managed to make Evas out of him.

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Re: What happens with adam's soul during third impact

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Postby Melkor » Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:06 pm

View Original PostAWinters wrote:I'm more confused about what happened to his body.
He's an embryo, yet they've managed to make Evas out of him.


That's a good question. Come to think of it, where did Nerv even get the Adam DNA to make EVAs like Unit-00 and Unit-02 that are clones of Adam if Adam was completely destroyed during Second Impact and the Adam embryo wasn't discovered and brought to them by Kaji until recently?

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Postby Reichu » Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:21 am

Those who left the base before the experiment took tissue samples, I would assume.
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Postby Melkor » Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:30 am

I guess that makes sense. In the Rebuilds there's multiple places they could have gotten the Adam DNA from to make the Evas, like from the Third Angel that was in captivity or from any of the four Adam's bodies they discovered, while in the original series the only window of time in which they could have obtained it would have been during the expedition.

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Re: What happens with adam's soul during third impact

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Postby Lavinius » Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:39 pm

View Original PostMelkor wrote:That's a good question. Come to think of it, where did Nerv even get the Adam DNA to make EVAs like Unit-00 and Unit-02 that are clones of Adam if Adam was completely destroyed during Second Impact and the Adam embryo wasn't discovered and brought to them by Kaji until recently?

Was it actually stated that the embryo had been recently discovered? I was under the impression that it was merely being kept in Germany for security purposes. Apparently the original Adam body is important for certain Instrumentality scenarios, probably since it's still linked to Adam's Guf and/or still implicitly has the Fruit of Life.
I'd imagine that when Kaji took it he replaced it with an identical Eva embryo so the theft wouldn't be easily discovered.

Actually it's weird- you could easily imagine that Nigouki had been kept in Germany to guard the embryo against any Angels that might seek it out instead of going for Lilith. And eventually it was decided to transfer both to Tokyo-3, putting both risk-treasures in the same vault and increasing the guard at the same time. IIRC it's not exactly clear in episode 08 that Kaji has stolen the embryo at all, it's only in the revised version of episode 21 that this is stated.
But now that we know that Kaji did steal the embryo, we have to wonder what the hell Seele was thinking, leaving Adam without any guard. I guess we have to conclude that the Angels wouldn't seek out a mere embryo at all, and that Gaghiel was actually seeking Nigouki, mistaking her for Adam or one of his friends, the whole time.

---
Edit: to answer OP's question...
View Original Postorcot wrote:Like the question states, What do you believe happenend with adam's soul during the third impact.
I assume with the kaworu dummy plug being a thing theirs probably a vat somewhere with naked young boys. When Shinji popped kaworu, his soul probably was placed in one of these clone bodies.
So what happenend with him can Giant Naked Rei claim adam's soul she already had a part of his flesh trough Gendo at this time. I feel that she somehow did but don't feel that she was suppose to be able to.

The Rei dummy plug worked in episode 18 even though Rei wasn't in the dummy plug plant at the time and there was no soul involved at all. So once the Kaworu Dummy Plugs had been completed and synced with Kaworu, there would be no need for his soul for them to function either.

I don't think that Kaworu's soul just flew back into another Kaworu body. The soul can stay with the body for some time after death- you can see this in EoE when Rei releases the souls from the bodies of the slain well after their death.
Adam's soul, then remained in Terminal Dogma, right where Lilith's body was, and where Gendou would soon bring Lilith's soul and Adam's body. Then Lilith's soul (Rei) absorbed Adam's body (giving her the Fruit of Life), and then returned to Lilith's body. And then Adam's soul joined to Lilith, so that GNR isn't just Lilith, but Lilith-Adam together- that's why you see her grow Kaworu out of her, and why later on Rei & Kaworu talk to Shinji together as equals.

In my opinion this is what Kaworu was hoping for in Terminal Dogma- to be joined with Lilith. Only hoping, which is why he didn't mention it to Shinji even while glancing pointedly at Rei. He doesn't want to destroy the Lilin, but he still wants to be resurrected as Adam and become mother & ruler of life on the planet. But to make peace with Lilith in a credible way apparently requires him to surrender himself to her. And thus Tabris has himself sacrificed before Lilith, and the fate of his soul is imparted to her power. As we see in EoE, Rei accepts him and deifies him alongside her.

This also matches with what is seen in the story of Adam & Lilith given in the Alphabet of Ben Sirach*- that Adam and Lilith initially were going to join~~ but that Adam insisted on predominance which Lilith rejected and fled from (what exactly this means for a scenario for First Impact I leave as an exercise for the reader). This explains why Lilith is predominant in the Adam-Lilith union being.

It's my belief that the Seeds actually perform a role on the planet they reside on, guiding evolution and overseeing the reincarnation of souls. Why exactly would Lilith keep herself alive for billions of years if she doesn't pay any attention to the world? We're also told that the number of children being born has been dropping, which is bizarre until we realize that for several years Lilith has been missing most of her soul and is thus less able to collect souls and reincarnate them.

As such, I think that you'll eventually start to see Adam-designed life emerge on the post-3I planet.

(Alternatively, Reichu is of the belief that Adam's soul went with Yui, who would carry her to another planet. This is an interesting theory, but I don't think there's enough evidence for it, especially given the emphasis the Adam-Lilith reconciliation is given in showing hope for ending Instrumentality. That Adam imparted the souls in her Guf to Yui during the Tree of Life scene I do find more likely.)

*Technically the Alphabet of Ben Sirach differs greatly from most other Qabbalistic descriptions of Lilith, and the work is plausibly a satirical one. However, it's the source for the usual "story of Adam & Lilith" and one extremely bizarre plot point in Eva from any other basis- Adam sending Angels after Lilith-,- as well as Lilith's prefered sexual position- seem to be taken from it, so that it's almost certainly this particular story that Anno based Eva off of.
Last edited by Lavinius on Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What happens with adam's soul during third impact

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Postby Reichu » Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:06 pm

View Original PostLavinius wrote:IIRC it's not exactly clear in 08 that Kaji has stolen the embryo at all

When Kaji talks on the phone with Gendo around when Gaghiel attacks, you can see a suitcase in the foreground. This same suitcase is opened at the end of the episode and it has the embryo inside.
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Postby Lavinius » Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:59 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:When Kaji talks on the phone with Gendo around when Gaghiel attacks, you can see a suitcase in the foreground. This same suitcase is opened at the end of the episode and it has the embryo inside.

Clearly. I mean that you could think Kaji was just acting as a covert delivery boy- secret from the crew of the ships, but willingly sent by Kiel to Gendou.

My point here, in case it wasn't clear, is that from the Doylean perspective, it doesn't seem that Kaji was thought of as having stolen the embryo when episode 08 was written. But when 21' stated that he had stolen it, this maybe created a bit of a plot hole unless we can rationalize Kiel sending off Nigouki but not the embryo.
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Re: What happens with adam's soul during third impact

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Postby Reichu » Sun Aug 16, 2020 7:41 pm

View Original PostLavinius wrote:Clearly. I mean that you could think Kaji was just acting as a covert delivery boy- secret from the crew of the ships, but willingly sent by Kiel to Gendou.

My point here, in case it wasn't clear, is that from the Doylean perspective, it doesn't seem that Kaji was thought of as having stolen the embryo when episode 08 was written.

An official transfer doesn't make sense of the secrecy that Kaji is operating under. Kaji is introduced in episode 7 (voice only) as an illicit operator doing dirty work for Gendo; and he continues to do sketchy things all the way until his death. That's just what Kaji does. Had Kiel wanted to send the embryo to Gendo, it could have been accomplished through official, and FAR more secure, channels. No need for all that needless risk. Seele didn't care enough about Eva-02's transfer to make sure it had so much as a power outlet at sea -- that was entirely Misato's doing!
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Re: What happens with adam's soul during third impact

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Postby Lavinius » Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:52 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:An official transfer doesn't make sense of the secrecy that Kaji is operating under. Kaji is introduced in episode 7 (voice only) as an illicit operator doing dirty work for Gendo; and he continues to do sketchy things all the way until his death. That's just what Kaji does. Had Kiel wanted to send the embryo to Gendo, it could have been accomplished through official, and FAR more secure, channels. No need for all that needless risk. Seele didn't care enough about Eva-02's transfer to make sure it had so much as a power outlet at sea -- that was entirely Misato's doing!

That's reasonable.
Honestly, given that they gave Nigouki neither power nor even changed her into the water-compatible equipment, they were insanely overconfident in their prophecy.
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Re: What happens with adam's soul during third impact

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Postby Reichu » Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:09 am

On the plus side, this feeds nicely into my head canon conspiracy that Kiel has a personal beef against Eva-02 and would have probably been pleased to see her get eaten by Gaghiel. In fact, WHAT IF he made his Eva Series a bunch of similarly eyeless things with big mouths specifically so that he could get a chance to see that fantasy at last play out? :devil: Yes... yes, this is good....
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Re: What happens with adam's soul during third impact

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Postby Melkor » Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:53 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:On the plus side, this feeds nicely into my head canon conspiracy that Kiel has a personal beef against Eva-02 and would have probably been pleased to see her get eaten by Gaghiel. In fact, WHAT IF he made his Eva Series a bunch of similarly eyeless things with big mouths specifically so that he could get a chance to see that fantasy at last play out? :devil: Yes... yes, this is good....


If that's the case, could Kiel have possibly known Asuka's mother Kyoko or had some connection to her?

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Re: What happens with adam's soul during third impact

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Postby Reichu » Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:11 am

Oh, it's basically a bunch of completely substanceless silliness I came up with years ago for fanfic purposes. His comment about Eva-02 being "loathsome" (or maybe he's just talking about Evas in general, but it's more interesting if he's talking about Eva-02 specifically), and the brutal indignities he allowed his servant MP Evas to bring upon her, stirred the imagination quite a bit. It made me wonder if Eva-02 could possibly have ever done anything to make Kiel hate her personally. One completely unexplained aspect of Kiel's character is the fact that most of his body is replaced with cybernetics. Kiel looked pretty normal in 2001, and was moving out and about in public, which made me think that some kind of traumatic incident must have happened between then and 2015. What's good for producing a traumatic incident? A crazed Evangelion. In the present day, Eva-02 is rather well-behaved, but that doesn't mean this was always the case. So I came up with the idea of Eva-02 going berserk immediately after the procedure for suturing Kyoko's soul back together. Have Kiel visiting Gehirn on that unfortunate day, bam, he gets nearly crushed to death and his life can only be saved through the extensive use of prosthetic organs. He decides to let that Zeppelin bitch stay in the Eva so she can be subjected to brutal advances in restraint tech. And if anything bad were ever to happen to Eva-02 later on, he would be the last person to complain.

So yeah, just something I use to entertain myself. Not meant to have any kind of deeper validity, though if other people want to write Kiel as being reasonably bitter that Asuka's crazy mom fucked his shit up, I won't complain or anything.
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Re: What happens with adam's soul during third impact

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Postby Melkor » Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:24 pm

I think there could be something to that theory. Seele seems to have a lot of connections to Germany. Seele, Gehirn, and Nerv are all German words. There are two Nerv bases in Germany, which is a lot for a country that small, which hints at it's importance. Kiel is a German name, and I'm willing to bet that a lot of Seele's members are probably German too, and that Seele might have even been founded in Germany. Germany has a history with secret societies. The Bavarian Illuminati was founded in Germany in the 1700's, and Seele seems like an organization in the same vein as the Illuminati. With Seele having such heavy influence in Germany, is it possible that Kyoko might have even been a member, or connected to one of its members like Yui was, and betrayed them? Maybe Kyoko and Kiel had a thing going on at some point, like Gendo and Naoko did.

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Re: What happens with adam's soul during third impact

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Postby Blockio » Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:27 pm

I'm not sure if the amount of German names in the show carries as many implications as you make it out to be. Scifi anime in general, and mecha in particular absolutely LOVES its gratuitious German for names; there is a metric fuckton of garbage named after more or less random German words, ranging back way before Eva. Sure, there are definitely some observations to be made, but not everything loops back to Germany.
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Re: What happens with adam's soul during third impact

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Postby Reichu » Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:10 am

Yeah, honestly, the reasoning for my head canon basically goes no further than:

1) If you squint a bit, it kind of looks like Kiel uniquely despises Eva-02.
2) Kiel needs something to handily explain why he's so extensively cyberneticized despite being apparently fine in 2001.
3) Kyoko is crazy, but she's strangely well-behaved as an Eva. Maybe that wasn't always the case. Maybe something bad happened before they realized they needed to restrain the shit out of her.
4) Have Kiel visit one of the German Gehirn installations while Kyoko is flipping out; make sure he gets thoroughly crushed; have him vow to make Dr. Zeppelin suffer extensively.

Fanfiction logic, really. Though with how much utterly sadistic abuse he has the MPEs subject Eva-02 to despite at least pretending (badly) to be a gentleman at moments like Ritsuko's, er, interrogation... I dunno, man. He might as well have a raging hate-boner for Asuka's mom.

Then again, he sees fit to let his own shitty Evas get thoroughly mangled and abused, so maybe he just has a hate-boner for Adam and her descendants in general, and was thoroughly disappointed that Kaworu's death was a mere insta-crushing as opposed to him being slowly ripped apart or something.

There, Kaworu. Back on topic, I guess. More on topic: what happens with Adam's soul during Third Impact? Well, see, she borrows Rei's body for a little bit, pulls some Angel souls out of her pockets, and figuratively straps on the Spear of Longinus so she can fuck those Angel souls right into Shinji's mom. Yui likes it, too. Then she uses the Kaworu avatar to say some vague nonsense, and hitches a ride on the Yui boat along with all the other cool people. Once they reach the promised land, both Yui and Adam will get to achieve their outstanding dreams of being houseplanetwives together.
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Re: What happens with adam's soul during third impact

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Postby Analyzor » Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:31 am

View Original PostMelkor wrote:That's a good question. Come to think of it, where did Nerv even get the Adam DNA to make EVAs like Unit-00 and Unit-02 that are clones of Adam if Adam was completely destroyed during Second Impact and the Adam embryo wasn't discovered and brought to them by Kaji until recently?


View Original PostReichu wrote:Those who left the base before the experiment took tissue samples, I would assume.



The Spear was nailed into Adam so there must have been DNA on it as well; and we also know they sent the Spear to the Dead Sea for some purpouse... and then sent back in order to do the CE.

It is assumable they retrieved a lot of things from there before 2I.

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Re: What happens with adam's soul during third impact

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Postby Reichu » Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:05 pm

A team left Antarctica "with the research" right before Second Impact. Them taking tissue samples directly from the gigantic humanoid being that is right there is much, much simpler than them scraping bits of billions-years-old injuries off the shaft of a spear. They could have collected tissue at leisure, of the best quality, from all around Adam's body. It would make no sense not to do it.

The spear being sent to the Dead Sea and back is an assumption. All we know is that *A* spear is sent to Antarctica from the Dead Sea. The implied significance of the Dead Sea is the Dead Sea Scrolls -- a connection is being made between the two. Since the spears possess the ability to make decisions in contexts pertaining to Seeds of Life and Impacts and such, that means they contain information. They can also respond to the will of the one who wields them, meaning they can receive information from the outside, making it also possible they can send information the opposite way. In other words, there was a spear -- not the one Adam was impaled on, but a different one -- that was located in the Dead Sea area that inspired the mystics who wrote the scrolls.

Consider that if this "spear sent from the Dead Sea" bit of dialogue is not treated as a hint regarding the scrolls, there is absolutely NOTHING in the show at all that even attempts to address the why and how of their existence. So this is actually pretty important. This clue can be put to incredible use to illuminate a mystery that otherwise receives no illumination at all, or it can be wasted on a series of actions that make no sense. Getting in and out of Antarctica is not easy. The White Moon already has an incredibly high-tech research facility right inside it. Seele have complete control over this facility; the leader of Seele, Kiel Lorenz himself, is hanging out there. Anything that Seele needs to accomplish before Second Impact can be accomplished right on the premises. What possible reason could Seele have to send a gigantic, highly classified objects through treacherous polar conditions, all the way to a political garbage fire like the West Bank (I'm sure lots of people there would be real happy about Seele flaunting their discovery of something named after a sacred Biblical object), and then BACK AGAIN? If for some reason they HAD to send the Spear away, the West Bank is one of the worst possible places you could send it. (Why not New Zealand or Australia?) You want to get something like the Spear of Longinus the hell away from a place that's in a state of constant war over Abrahamic religion. As far away as possible. Like, say... Antarctica would be ideal.

Adam was logically impaled on Lilith's spear -- episode 24 hints at such a primordial battle, through the power of reenactment -- thus Lilith cast Adam's spear out of the White Moon. We see in episode 22 that the spears possess some kind of mysterious impregnation facility, so Adam's spear would be required at the South Pole in order to make the transgenic experiment possible. Lilith's spear is antagonistic to Adam and freezes her, while Adam's own spear enables the research team to impregnate Adam with normally incompatible DNA.
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