Why didn't the first shot kill Ramiel/The 7th Angel?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Why didn't the first shot kill Ramiel/The 7th Angel?

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Postby AdamMalkovitch » Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:25 pm

In 1.0, Shinji makes both shots, unlike where he missed with the first shot in the anime series and the manga, but despite a straight shot directly through their Core, the 7th Angel is fine after the first shot. It's not like the second shot is any different or anything, so is New Theatrical Ramiel just ultra tough? Some sorta Flex Seal Core?
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Re: Why didn't the first shot kill Ramiel/The 7th Angel?

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Postby Reichu » Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:40 pm

The Seventh Angel has three separate cores: the one under the head, the giant one with the eyes on it, and the one that's INSIDE the giant one. Destroying the Angel requires destroying all three cores (though destroying one of the cores is clearly disruptive and requires the Angel to quickly reconfigure itself).

I can't answer the question about the 6th Angel. That still doesn't make sense to me either.
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Re: Why didn't the first shot kill Ramiel/The 7th Angel?

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Postby ErgoProxy » Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:47 pm

If I recall it well, different guidance software was used. The first shot was directed in the, uhm, geometrical centre of Angel - and missed the core. During the second one some funky picture of Angel can be seen on display - split in a half, with one piece still, the other moving in a random way. And this particular Angel was four-dimensional, right? Its body spaned along four orthogonal axes, three of them constituting ordinary 3D space inhabited by humans and the fourth one being alternative, lets say, depth.

So my working hypothesis is, the 6th Angel was able to hide its core away from the ordinary space, moving it along the alternative depth axis; what can be seen after the missed shot is merely a reflection. The first guidance system could trace the core shape only in the ordinary space; the second one was capable of tracing it along both depth axes and hence the picture displayed to Eva pilot is split. Apparently after being shot the 6th Angel lost its nerves and started to juggle its core "in the higher dimension" and out of the ordinary space, until it made a mistake and crossed the latter anyway. Which was when both pictures fit together on display and Shinji pulled the trigger, destroying the core before it could left the ordinary space again.

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Re: Why didn't the first shot kill Ramiel/The 7th Angel?

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Postby Derantor » Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:00 pm

Shinji misses  SPOILER: Show
Image

(Please view the image in full size to get a better look.)

This frame happens a few frames after there is a visible bulge in the beam, indicating that the core is engulfed in it. But as you can see, Shinji seems to have aimed slightly to the left of the actual Core - the center of the beam does not allign with it. Seems to me like this is just a case of slightly missing the target. The pained reaction Ramiel shows could stem from the fact that the beam was close enough to graze the core, engulfing it in the outer edges of its plasma (or whatever it is made from).

Edit: Just like Ramiel misses its shot at Shinji by aiming slightly to the upper left of him a few moments later:
Ramiel misses  SPOILER: Show
Image
Image

Edit 2: That split image is because Shinji switches to manual fire control (mentioned in dialogue) and is now using a Coincidence Rangefinder.

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Re: Why didn't the first shot kill Ramiel/The 7th Angel?

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:27 pm

It makes for a better and more thrilling climax to the movie.

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Re: Why didn't the first shot kill Ramiel/The 7th Angel?

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Postby Reichu » Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:45 pm

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:It makes for a better and more thrilling climax to the movie.

I'm like 100% sure OP wanted a Watsonian explanation, not a Doyleist one.
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Re: Why didn't the first shot kill Ramiel/The 7th Angel?

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Postby Derantor » Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:16 pm

To pick up on the reflection idea and fourth-dimensional shifting: It isn't even needed. A small error in the targeting system or just fluctuations in air-temperature along the path can explain the miss (or just plain bad luck - we've got no idea how accurate the positron rifle truly is). And if Ramiel has the ability to shift along a fourth dimension, you'd then have to explain why he didn't do so the second time around. As far as I can tell, his beam was disengaged, so there was no obvious reason to remain stationary. Shinji's targeting system is also not as sophisticated as before (at least if the dialogue is to be trusted), so I don't see how a cruder system could help assessing a fourth dimension that is by definition outside of the scope of any targeting system created in the three-dimensional world.

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Re: Why didn't the first shot kill Ramiel/The 7th Angel?

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Postby Zoop » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:42 am

Altho I like the multidimensional moving thing, it just does not make much sense. Need to botch too many things together to make it work like "it made a mistake and still showed its core" is meh ...
Especially how a second system could suddenly track it in this extra dimension, if they knew the Angel could do this, then why not use it on the first shot? Did they come up with ultra complicated science on the spot? Evangelion loves its technobabble, and would most certainly have some ramblings about it if this was the case.

I think just its main body is moving in extra dimensions, hence why its own shape can move into itself, like a moving Hypercube.
But it's core is in "normal" space (at least most definitely during firing, I recall a line about someone saying "it materializes"), making it possible to snipe it in the first place.

I'm going for Derantor's view on it. The first hit was a graze (the screenshot absolutely supports this), the second was dead on.

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Re: Why didn't the first shot kill Ramiel/The 7th Angel?

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Postby Melkor » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:51 am

Or a third possibility: the Angel can move it's core around inside its body, but only in real space. With the first shot the Angel managed to move its core slightly to the side at the last second, causing the shot to graze it, but on the second shot it wasn't as lucky and couldn't move its position fast enough.

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Re: Why didn't the first shot kill Ramiel/The 7th Angel?

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Postby Reichu » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:01 am

Just in case there's any doubt about the core being able to go four-dimensional...

super lazy GIF  SPOILER: Show
Image


TBH, I'm not well-versed enough in multidimensional sci-fi mumbo jumbo to know what the most likely explanation for this is. I feel like I grok it partially, but not completely enough to verbalize what's going on. I don't think the core is actually splitting into four parts, but the Angel is moving in a way that can only be comprehended by our eyes as "splitting in four". The Dali cross appearing right as the core "splits" hints at the four-dimensionality of the 6th Angel, since a Dali cross is the "unfolded net" of a tesseract, a cube's four-dimensional analogue. I find this all fascinating, but am not super-deep into the relevant subjects, so anybody who understands what's happening, I would love to hear a layman's explanation.
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Re: Why didn't the first shot kill Ramiel/The 7th Angel?

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Postby Zoop » Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:02 am

I guess it all depends whether its just a distortion of what we are seeing or what crazy extra dimensional stuff is going on.
I would say that even in the gif you posted, the core is still actually just in the center.
So hitting one of "copies" you see, would have no effect (in a way, that makes sense, otherwise the Angel would make itself really vulnerable with these attacks).

So far, Multidimensional movement is (at least afaik) pure theory, it may very well be real, but there is no practical way of proving it or experimenting with it, cause the theory also kinda makes it impossible for 3d beings to perceive a 4th or higher dimension. It would just show as a distorted 3d object. Maybe you can find such wacky things past the event horizon of a black hole or something. But in any case, currently, its pure sci-fi. And in many sci-fi, that 4th dimension is treated as time. Take for example the movie HyperCube (horribly cheesy sequel to the classic "The Cube"). Where people are being trapped inside a prison shaped like a Hypercube, and its shifting along the time axis, causing people in some rooms to experience time faster or slower than others, or even start to timetravel and end up with multiple copies of the same person.

Thinking of it using the 4th dimension as time, it may be possible it's sending its beam back to the past, so the current is harvesting multiple beams from a future, technically multiplying its beam this way. The more it folds into itself, the more "futures" it draws from. And thats what you are seeing with the extra cores, after (or rather, before) images of pieces of Ramiel from "a future".
Meaning, there is still only one "real" core, that would affect the present.

But this is all assuming the 4th dimension is actually time, plenty of theories that also state that 4th and higher dimensions are simply more spatial dimensions (like, x, y, z).

Without knowing the artist intent with using this effect (and if it indeed is more than just "a fancy effect") its all just speculation (but that's what we like to do on these forums ^_^).

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Re: Why didn't the first shot kill Ramiel/The 7th Angel?

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Postby Derantor » Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:09 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Just in case there's any doubt about the core being able to go four-dimensional...

Your intuition of what is happening is correct. It is difficult to visualize, but pretty easy in mathematics. Let's say the core has the coordinates (0 0 0) in 3d space (x y z axis) - when Ramiel transforms in the gif, it is moving in four dimensions. So, it shifts from 4d (0 0 0 0) to (0 0 0 1). The visual effect of this is that the core vanishes from sight - the four other cores becoming visible are simply the intersection points they have with 3d space. Lets say you move a 3d sphere through a two-dimensional reality. To the 2 dimensional beings inhabiting 2d-space, this would look like a circle coming into existence out of nowhere, growing larger, then shrinking again and then disappearing (or a border growing larger - the circle itself is only visible if you look at 2d space from the 3rd dimension). So a sphere is never "visible" in its true form in 2d space. Same with Ramiels core, just in ... more dimensions. I can't really tell if those are just four, but the principle stays the same.

The reason that I doubt that Ramiel is doing that during the shot is simple: That fourth dimension (or any higher dimension) can not under any circumstances be reached by the beam unless its co-ordinate value is 0 (3d space encompasses all values of (x y z + (0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ...), with all the zeroes being extra dimensions - you can have as many of them as you like). Any targetting system bound to three dimensions can only assess the x y z coordinates with more accuracy: 0,000001 instead of ~0,1 - all higher dimensions are simply not visible to it. Ramiel is clearly hurt by Shinji's first shot; that means that Shinji hit the part present in 3d, as he can't hit anything else - and he can not damage parts he can not hit.

If the gif is any indication, Ramiel seems to take some time to move in higher dimensions - the process is not instant. So it might very well be that he can not dodge Shinji's shot because he is not fast enough. In any case, the fact is that he does get hurt, so he didn't dodge. A rather dissatisfactory explanation, but the one that makes sense to me.

(Ramiel missing his first shot as well is maybe a case of narrative repetition and foreshadowing: Shinji misses, Ramiel misses - then, Ramiel hits (Rei is directly in front of Shinji and square in the center of his attack), which means that Shinji will hit as well. And sure enough he does.

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Re: Why didn't the first shot kill Ramiel/The 7th Angel?

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Postby Zoop » Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:30 am

Point is, Reichu, that the fourth dimension as time would basically be a spatial dimension, something we can't perceive but just travel, but a fourth dimensional being would be able to step forward and backward in time as if it just another spatial dimension. And when a fourth dimensional being does, it would seem to appear, dissappear, fold into itself, etc. Thats exactly how it worked in the example I mentioned (the movie Hypercube).
Giving how Ramiel amplifies its power by "folding", it would make sense it does so through time "copies" of the energy.

How was Leliel a 4th dimensional being? Its body was 2D (not really tho, as it actually still had a thickness, albeit very thin), that cast a 3D shadow (which didn't make much sense, since berserker 01 tore out of it), the Dirac Sea being an infinite sea of particles with negative energy, an entirely different thing imo.
If any, it more approaches the concept of a pocket universe, rather than dimensions. I see the term pocket dimension being used in the Eva WIKI, but the thing being described there is a pocket universe, the terms are used as synonyms a lot in Sci-Fi, but a pocket universe has actual scientific descriptions, pocket dimension is purely someone making scifi pulled out of his ass (cant remember if the terms were actually used in the anime, but my points still stand).

Then again, it's all fantasy and scifi, in any case, no need to get so aggressive about.
The 6th Angel is pretty clearly just tapping into the idea of four SPATIAL dimensions.

I would like to see some explicit source before making such bold claims, again, plenty of theories explain Time as being just another Spatial dimension (which seems to be the most accepted theory anyway).

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Re: Why didn't the first shot kill Ramiel/The 7th Angel?

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Postby Derantor » Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:44 am

>that the fourth dimension as time would basically be a spatial dimension
This is fundamentally incorrect. Time is a temporal or causal dimension. It might not even be a dimension but an emergent property of causality, which itself might only be a figment of our imagination. The analogy to spatial dimensions is used to explain stuff, to make it easily visualizable. But it is just that, an analogy.

Lets say it this way: (0 1 0 2 3) are five dimensional coordinates, as are (0 1 0 3 4). Time is the dimension that says (+0 +0 +0 +1 +1). All the other dimensions can ever do is stay exactly as they are. Only time can do operation on the values.

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Re: Why didn't the first shot kill Ramiel/The 7th Angel?

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Postby Zoop » Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:09 am

This is fundamentally incorrect.

No such thing, google around for "time as a spatial dimension". It's just another theory (which I mentioned as such), same as yours is "just" a theory.

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Re: Why didn't the first shot kill Ramiel/The 7th Angel?

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Postby Melkor » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:54 pm

Those four extra cores could just be fake cores (much like the 7th Angel had in 2.0) to hide the real one. Three of them are decoys, while only one is the real core. The others are just mirrored reflections of it.

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Re: Why didn't the first shot kill Ramiel/The 7th Angel?

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Postby Reichu » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:50 pm

You don't think them literally emerging from the unfolded net of a tesseract is supposed to hold any significance regarding their interpretation? :tongue: I guess what I'm saying is that the Dali cross and the core being "split" 4-way in a visually incoherent way both signal that the Angel has an unusual (4D) nature, but just saying "it's making decoys" IMO wastes the hint. Why bother showing a Dali cross as part of that transformation if four-dimensionality isn't what's being driven at?

Misato using the phrase "decoy" for the 7th Angel is a little misleading. I'm fairly certain that the core was real. All three cores I mentioned are included in the rainbow tally when it dies. (Compare to the usual single rainbow that accompanies most Angels, the endless barrage of rainbows that go off for the colonial 8th Angel, the four rainbows for 4444C, etc.) The Angel is affected by the destruction of the first core and it's briefly incompacitated until it can place cores 2 and 3 into the "head" position. Misato's logic dictates we should call a dog's fourth leg a "decoy", since you'll just inconvenience it by taking that leg out, and only the legs you destroy after that are its true legs. :p
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Re: Why didn't the first shot kill Ramiel/The 7th Angel?

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Postby Melkor » Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:25 pm

Maybe "decoy" isn't the right word. Decoy implies that those other cores are actual physical objects that are there. Maybe more like phantom cores or "mirages". The way I view the Sixth Angel is that it's like a mirror. It can reflect parts of itself onto other parts of its body, created distorted images. The other cores aren't really there. They're just mirages/reflections produced by the Angel refracting light through its body. It's like how when you're trying to spear a fish that's swimming in a river, you have to stab the water in front of the fish, not where the fish appears to be. Because of the way the water distorts the light, the fish appears to be in a different location than where it actually is. That's why the first shot missed, because Shinji didn't take into account that since the core is inside a transparent reflective surface (the Angel's body) the core's location will be slightly off from where it appears to be from the outside due to light distortions, just like a fish in water. On the second shot, the targeting computer took into account how the light entering the 6th Angel's body would become distorted and reflected, and because of that was able to get it the second time. When its core exploded, you see the image of it reflected throughout it's body, just like in a distorted mirror.

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Re: Why didn't the first shot kill Ramiel/The 7th Angel?

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Postby Derantor » Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:30 am

View Original PostZoop#896316 wrote:No such thing, google around for "time as a spatial dimension". It's just another theory (which I mentioned as such), same as yours is "just" a theory.

Speaking of Google: This article probably explains it better than I can, and was the first thing that came up.

It is also not so much a matter of theory, but of plain logic. Suppose you are right, and our fourth dimension, time, is indistinct from all other dimensions. In that case, movement through any dimension would advance time. Having dimensions [x y z t] - with x y and z being space and t being time under normal circumstances - it is entirely possible to move through x while having 0 movement in y, z and t and advance time that way. You start at [0 0 0 0] and move in the x direction by 1 unit. Your new state is [1 0 0 0]. But, moving back to [0 0 0 0] leaves you with a paradox. Your new state is indistinguishable from your starting point. So, did you move forward or backwards in time?

There is also another problem here. Suppose our fourth dimension is like any other dimension, it just looks like time to us. That would make it possible to have a situation like this: [1 0 0 1] -> [2 0 0 2] -> [3 0 0 3] -> [4 0 0 2] -> [5 0 0 1]. See what happened? You could move backwards in the fourth dimension without changing direction in x, y and z. That means causality flies right out of the window: moving backwards in time should reverse whatever change happened in the other three dimensions, but it doesn't in this case: Going back one step in t should leave you with [2 0 0 2] but brings you to [4 0 0 2] instead.

All of that only makes sense if there is another dimension tracking the progression - which means that your change in position looks like this:
[1 0 0 1 1] -> [2 0 0 2 2] -> [3 0 0 3 3] -> [4 0 0 2 4] -> [5 0 0 1 5]
So you got spatial dimensions w, x, y and z + time dimension t. There is one other possibility: Emergent time. [1 0 0 1] has value 0 because nothing happened yet. [2 0 0 2] has value 4 because there were four operations done on the values: +1, +0, +0, +1. [3 0 0 3] would have value 8 for the same reason. [4 0 0 2] would be 12, because again, there are four operations: +1, +0, +0, -1, same with [5 0 0 1] which would have value 16. Therefore, you are always moving forward in time, even if you are at rest or go back to your starting point, since the operations number always increases, never decreases. We could argue over whether or not +/-0 counts as an operation - if it doesn't, then time advances slower or faster depending on the number of dimensions you move in (or your speed: Going from [0 0 0 0] to [5 0 0 0] is like adding +1 five times, so the value should be 5, not 1 for adding +5 in one go). But no matter how you slice is, time is either an emergent property or a dimension in its own right, but it can never be just another spatial dimension.

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Re: Why didn't the first shot kill Ramiel/The 7th Angel?

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Postby Blockio » Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:09 am

Space-time shenanigans aside, I offer a more... practical answer;
doing some experimenting on Google maps in the area surrounding Hakone, the sniping position was somewhere in the south-southwest of town across the lake; depending on the exact location of 01 and the 6th, the distance for the shot is anywhere between 6 to 10 kilometers.

Doing some very rough math to scale them down to human size (which is inadmissibly simplifying the whole thing, at that scale a lot of factors would make it much harder to pull off), we are left with the goal of hitting a coconut at a range of roughly 100 meters, give or take.
This is definitely doable, no questions there; but even then, the tiniest squiggle is sufficient to throw your aim off just enough to miss, especially in the case of a kid like Shinji who has never in his life shot anything at that relative range; we see how much the crosshairs are wobbling around in the aiming sequences, most of these shots would have gone way wide had he pulled the trigger.

And I don't think there's much more to it than that; he took a relatively difficult shot, and missed the first time

EDIT: Reichu has brought this map here to my attention, which specifies marker 17 as the place the rifle was stationed and marker 13 as the place where the 6th angel was at the time, which would be just shy of 6km, so definitely on the lower end of the estimated range.

Which leaves us with two questions -
what the fuck sort of trajectory did both of these beams take to travel across the lake, because that certainly wasn't a straight line and
How in the world is the 6th over a kilometer away from Nerv HQ (marker 12), when we clearly see its drill directly over top when it gets killed?
:deskbang:
The fourth dimension thing is starting to become the more reasonable option the more I look at this garbage /s
Last edited by Blockio on Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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