The relation between Yui and Rei

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orcot
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The relation between Yui and Rei

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Postby orcot » Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:32 pm

this is based on the manga.

Rei and Yui have 2 interactions that I believe tells them something abouth their relation.

The first time in Volume 8 when Rei interfears between Yui and Shinji. Before every time a angel came between Yui and Shinji she became ferral growlth and tried to eat them. However with Rei she has a more or less civil conversation in full sentences eventough Rei either removed Yui's "glamore" or melted her face off.

(I wonder why she never mentionend she could talk to Yui to Gendo, eventough he would probably be interested in knowing that is a option, nobody asked seems dumb because their was a genuine change Rei would end up like Yui trapped in a eva so she would have probably asked for advice. (also when Rei takes Fuyutsuki during the third impact in Yui's form he get's 2 full pages explaining why he never mentionend it to Gendo).

The second encounter is in the same chapter when ?Yui? tries to save Gendo's soul. They talk abouth their son, trying to give Gendo a happy ending the story that is told is excelent and I like the artwork and emotions behind it, but in the last page Rei is seen in the shadows. I have 2 interpretations of this scene either Yui was never there and it was a projection of Rei trying to give Gendo a happy ending.
Or the one I think is most true Rei was simply waiting for Yui to be done to change Gendo into goop.
If the last one is true it's pretty shitty to ignore what is basicly her daughter even tough Rei and Gendos relation was much better then between Gendo and Shinji. Also Gendo altough "saved" and into the goop never atempts to contact Shinji and remains goop. (forgiven yourself under these circumstances feels extremly selfish to be honnest)
whilst at least with Rei he could have had a couple of words and some genuine interaction either personal towards Rei or to convey a message to Shinji.

Reading what I yust wrote Yui isn't exactly a nice person and altough she tolerates Rei she would rather ignore her completly making her relation the exact opposide with Gendo who prefers Rei and tolerates Shinji altough he preferes to ignore him. If you ever wonder what those 2 saw in each other.

Do others have a different opinion between the relationship between these 2 characters?

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Re: The relation between Yui and Rei

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Postby orcot » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:35 am

On a further note was Rei one of Yui's plans
Rei was originally created by Fuyutsuki who knew more then anyone else abouth Yui's intentions and Yui seems to have needed Rei for multiple reasons. Yes she needed her to start the third impact but she also wanted a other pilot to experiment with (not Shinji in this test phase).

there is a third interaction between Yui and Rei in the manga volume 5 chapter 28 Rei tries to sync with Eva 01 and notices a presence she asks who is there and Yui in eva form shows herself and stares at Rei

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Re: The relation between Yui and Rei

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Postby orcot » Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:35 pm

Not really abouth the relation between Yui and Rei, but I wonder is Yui unit 01 when it goes beserk or is there more to it?

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Re: The relation between Yui and Rei

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:38 am

Rereading that conversation between Rei and Unit-01 in Volume 08, I think it's pretty clear that who she is talking to isn't Yui, but Unit-01 itself as the "offspring" of Lilith/Lilith clone. Rei's soul was originally residing within Unit-01 (and before that, Lilith), and so she was Unit-01/Lilith, but now Rei's soul is within Rei's body, and Yui's soul is within Unit-01. However, this does not mean that Unit-01 does not possess a mind of its own, just as Rei possesses a mind of her own.

I think Rei's conversation is a plea with Unit-01, via a sort of telepathic link that exists because they were originally one unified being, to release Shinji. The apparition of Unit-01 that appears before Shinji, asking "don't you want to become one with me?" mirrors the same questions asked by Armisael and during HIP for a reason, which is done intentionally. You can't forget that Unit-01/Lilith were originally angels. Even the other Evas are angels per se, being clones of Adam. What makes them "human" specifically is the fact that a human soul resides within them, and the fact that the Angels share over a 99.9% (or something similar to that) matching DNA genome with humans. Unit-01 in particular, containing Lilith's soul for a time before having it "salvaged" into Rei after Yui's soul is absorbed into Unit-01, means it was fully an Angel before becoming "human" (of course, given how Lilith is the progenitor of all the Lilin blurs the line between it being Lilin/human and angel a bit).

That's why, after Shinji starts freaking out and Unit-01 asks "don't you want to become one with me?" he exclaims, "you're not her!" and then out of the apparition of Unit-01 appears the apparition of his mother's soul. Whether by "her" he meant Rei or Yui here is difficult to say conclusively, but regardless, the fact that an apparition of Yui's soul appears immediately afterward should demonstrate well enough that there is a distinction between the being who was originally trying to get Shinji to become one with it (Unit-01), and herself. She tells him, when Shinji is frozen in position watching her holding him next to a Tree and presumably Gendo (or maybe Fyut? probably Gendo), "you can come over here, to me, you know". When he feels frozen in place, she acknowledges that by following her original statement up with "is it that you have some reason you want to stay over there?" and something along the lines that he can exist in a sea or a place that is away from her, it's okay, etc.

It seems by saying this that she wasn't ever intending for him to come over and stay with her, within the Eva. Rather, she was asking him to make him aware of the fact that he's frozen in place, and to get him to think about why he is frozen there and doesn't join her ("could it be that you have a reason you don't wish to stay over there/not join me?"). After she asked him this, he says he hears others calling, and without a problem at all, turns around to face them, and then floats away. This is when he is spit out of Unit-01's core next to Misato. His mother, upon awakening and appearing to Shinji separately from the apparition of Unit-01 basically gets Shinji to wake up and realize he's still got people he cares about and wants to connect with and experience life with, which is all in line with her original plans to get Shinji to save humanity. Essentially, she never actually intended for him to join with her and stay within the Eva despite telling him that he could remain there with her if he wanted (although maybe she would've been okay with that if nothing else since they'd both continue to exist together forever now that Unit-01 had acquired the S2 engine for itself). Her saying that was a bit of a gambit, something she said that was a calculated risk to get him to wake up to the fact he still wanted to and had a reason to exist with his friends and adoptive family outside the Eva.

How much of Unit-01's actions while berserk were guided or directly controlled by Yui isn't very clear, and I don't really comfortable saying more about it than that. We have to remember that in the manga, Rei has Lilith's soul, and was originally Unit-01 and at the same time, Lilith. The line between Lilith and Unit-01, as far as being a clone and being an offspring is also a bit blurry. It seemed more like clone when it was just Lilith/Rei's soul within Unit-01, and then once Yui's soul came to reside within Unit-01 and Liilth's came to reside in Rei, it became more like offspring (since Rei/Lilith's soul eventually returned to Lilith's body in the end while Unit-01, as a fully separate entity, existed along side her with Yui's soul instead). Presumably the mind of Unit-01 would be like the mind of Lilith, meaning it would have its own reason for acquiring an S2 engine and a desire for self preservation, so how much of what happened the times Unit-01 went berserk was a result of Unit-01's mind/desires and Yui's is honestly entirely up for debate.

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Re: The relation between Yui and Rei

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Postby orcot » Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:26 pm

I've reread the the chapter with your recomendations in mind.

View Original PostStrokeMeGoat wrote:Rereading that conversation between Rei and Unit-01 in Volume 08, I think it's pretty clear that who she is talking to isn't Yui, but Unit-01 itself as the "offspring" of Lilith/Lilith clone. Rei's soul was originally residing within Unit-01 (and before that, Lilith), and so she was Unit-01/Lilith, but now Rei's soul is within Rei's body, and Yui's soul is within Unit-01. However, this does not mean that Unit-01 does not possess a mind of its own, just as Rei possesses a mind of her own.

I still believe the figure is Yui, I'm basing it on the fact that the being wanted Shinji to stay and when Shinji is in the sea looking at Yui and baby Shinji she says you could still join us if you want to. But then again it could be yust a ploy of Yui to traumatize Shinji in rejecting instrumentality in the future.

View Original PostStrokeMeGoat wrote:I think Rei's conversation is a plea with Unit-01, via a sort of telepathic link that exists because they were originally one unified being,

You know I wonder abouth the raltion Between Rei and Yui/unit 01. I wonder what sort of talk Yui must have had with lilith for her to come out and see the world trough Rei, I'm sure it changed her/it in a significant way.

View Original PostStrokeMeGoat wrote:The apparition of Unit-01 that appears before Shinji, asking "don't you want to become one with me?" mirrors the same questions asked by Armisael and during HIP for a reason, which is done intentionally. You can't forget that Unit-01/Lilith were originally angels.

Abouth the apparition I was convinced it was Misato (empowered by Rei), it only appears afther Misato is in Shinji's soup/LCL. The apparition does not look like Yui at all (long hair etc) and doesn't have a face but it could look like a gestalt of both Misato and Rei. It would have made sence and explain why Shinji thinks to himself "there's a scent; Another; Ayanami? Misato?"

if not that in the first volume we see the same apparition when it takes over control of unit 01. Buyt then again the first volume of the manga appeared 10 months before the release of the anime linkhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon_Genesis_Evangelion_(manga)#History (august 29, 1995 manga) VS (october 4, 1995 Anime)
It is not inpossible that the orginial chapters predates the design of Yui and the orginal concept for Yui would have her more resembled Shinji's foster mother (Misato) then Rei.
I wonder

View Original PostStrokeMeGoat wrote:Even the other Evas are angels per se, being clones of Adam. What makes them "human" specifically is the fact that a human soul resides within them, and the fact that the Angels share over a 99.9% (or something similar to that) matching DNA genome with humans. Unit-01 in particular, containing Lilith's soul for a time before having it "salvaged" into Rei after Yui's soul is absorbed into Unit-01,

Unit 01 is called a arc (noah's boat) for humanity to withstand the third impact if then Shinji rejects instrumentality they will slowly return to the earth. I do believe Yui especialy at the end has the intention to be the sole remaining soul in the eva.
That's why, after Shinji starts freaking out and Unit-01 asks "don't you want to become one with me?" he exclaims, "you're not her!" and then out of the apparition of Unit-01 appears the apparition of his mother's soul. Whether by "her" he meant Rei or Yui here is difficult to say conclusively, but regardless, the fact that an apparition of Yui's soul appears immediately afterward should demonstrate well enough that there is a distinction between the being who was originally trying to get Shinji to become one with it (Unit-01), and herself. She tells him, when Shinji is frozen in position watching her holding him next to a Tree and presumably Gendo (or maybe Fyut? probably Gendo), "you can come over here, to me, you know". When he feels frozen in place, she acknowledges that by following her original statement up with "is it that you have some reason you want to stay over there?" and something along the lines that he can exist in a sea or a place that is away from her, it's okay, etc. [/quote]
I've heard that it is Yui testing Shinji to see if he would reject instrumentality

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Re: The relation between Yui and Rei

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:38 pm

View Original Postorcot#895395 wrote:I've reread the the chapter with your recomendations in mind.
I still believe the figure is Yui, I'm basing it on the fact that the being wanted Shinji to stay and when Shinji is in the sea looking at Yui and baby Shinji she says you could still join us if you want to. But then again it could be yust a ploy of Yui to traumatize Shinji in rejecting instrumentality in the future.

Why are you assuming that Yui is trying to manipulate Shinji in such a negative and borderline, if not totally hostile manner? Why would she feel the need to traumatize him (or otherwise not come to the conclusion that there are more effective, less coercive, and more healthy ways of affecting his behavior) in order to get him to act according with her wishes, especially given he's already been traumatized plenty by her disappearance, Gendo's rejection of him, and his experiences piloting the Eva and fighting the Angels? I feel like specifically choosing to control his behavior with the legitimate intent to cause him trauma in order to bring about that control is not only straight up mean, but overkill.

Like, maybe you could argue that bringing him to observe the contact experiment was meant to specifically cause him some manner of trauma, but Yui exhibits a very consistent attitude, outlook, and pattern of behavior what little of which we see of her throughout the series. The Manga, if anything, only solidifies that she's consistent with what she says, does, and says she believes by providing us with more scenes with her being a central actor in it. This outlook of hers is one that's of hope and determination to survive and to continue having the will to live. Shinji was arguably already socially inept and dysfunctional when it comes to relationships with others and believing he has inherent value as a person himself, and having to pilot the Eva and fight the Angels just sends him spiraling into depression and self-loathing. I don't think [*]anybody[/*] in the right frame of mind could find the idea of going about manipulating an emotionally and psychologically damaged 14 year old boy (who, by the way,has been tasked with piloting the only weapons capable of defending the Earth from super beings whose very nature draws them into causing humanity's extinction ...because literally only he and 2 others are even capable of synchronizing with and piloting the weapons) into saving humanity from the Third Impact and HIP by inflicting even greater trauma on him remotely viable at all. There's a significantly higher chance that employing such methods would cause the exact opposite effect.

If you re-read the Manga's version of Third Impact and HIP, either Yui reminds Shinji of the promise she had him make to her when he was a toddler, or Shinji recalls it as a result of his conversation with Rei in the sea of LCL (can't remember which). When Yui, the various apparitions of Rei, Kaworu, and Unit-01 appear before Gendo and confront him about his treatment of Shinji and how he's just overall behaved throughout his life in general, Yui reminds him of how he felt when Shinji was born,,, the warmth, the love, the desire for him to succeed, and most of all the desire for him to live. Her having Shinji make a promise to her (idk what the promise was exactly, something to that results in saving humanity and has to do with the will to keep living and to survive), reminding him of it (or having Rei remind him or whatever happens), her reminding Gendo about essentially the same wishes and desires as well as responding to his question about having to raise their child through the hell of post-second impact by saying as long as somebody has to will and desire to live then they can always have the opportunity to be happy, her conversation with Fyutusuki where she mentions all that exact same stuff (which is why he begrudgingly accepts her desire to remain inside the Eva and hide that plan from Gendo), as well as that same line about as long as the Earth, moon, etc. still exist and one has the desire to live then they can find happiness being repeated at the end of the series (can't remember if it happens in the Manga but does in EoE)... it all establishes, imo, a pretty solid case for the idea that she wouldn't forcefully traumatize her son to save humanity, let alone even consider that an option capable of working.

Abouth the apparition I was convinced it was Misato (empowered by Rei), it only appears afther Misato is in Shinji's soup/LCL. The apparition does not look like Yui at all (long hair etc) and doesn't have a face but it could look like a gestalt of both Misato and Rei. It would have made sence and explain why Shinji thinks to himself "there's a scent; Another; Ayanami? Misato?" [/*quote]
I could maybe see it being Rei, but in the anime a figure of that exact same likeness appears to him in ep.16 when Unit-01 is trapped in the Dirac Sea, and he straight up refers to her as "mother". Granted, there are some differences between the manga and anime, but usually they were done to enhance some particular aspect about the show or explore certain ideas that having the story presented in the far less time-restrictive format of a manga allows for. I can't for the life of me see why they'd change a detail like that in this particular case. I think him feeling Misato's presence or whatever simply coincided with that part of the narrative that it's made it easy to interpret that apparition as being meant to represent her. That entire bit only takes place over the entirety of 3-4 pages, so a lot of stuff was happening pretty well all at once. I'm not going to say that the apparition couldn't have been Rei or Misato, but I just don't see why they'd change that from being a representation of his mother like in the anime to making it be one of the other two instead... especially since it's so ambiguous as to which one of them it might even be.

IIRC the apparition appears coming out from behind the apparition of Unit-01, right after Rei has finished asking the Eva why it wouldn't give Shinji back, and immediately following Shinji's freaking out over it asking why he doesn't want to become one with it. It's implied that the female apparition comes out from within the Unit-01 apparition, separating from it, and as we know, Yui's soul resides within the core of Unit-01, almost directly implying just right there even that it's meant to represent her. Immediately following the separation of the two, Shinji encounters the vision of Yui holding him as a baby under the tree, further implying that she is connected to the apparition, and likely actually is it herself. This is a pretty common narrative/cinematography device used to allow the audience to infer knowledge about what's going on without the need to communicate it to them directly or explicitly. A perfect example of this was how everybody believed for a while that Misato was in fact the person that shot Kaji because right after he says "yo, what took you so long" and the sound of a gunshot and the fade to black, the very next cut of the original episode that aired opened up on the "M. Katsuragi" nameplate outside Misato, Shinji, and Asuka's apartment. It's such a common device for visual story telling that people believe Anno was revealing who had come to kill Kaji... but he went on recorded saying it wasn't her, was horrified that people had come to believe that based on this direction choice, and chose to recut the transition from the scene following Kaji's murder to open up instead on a lightpost on the same block as the apartment complex building Misato & co.'s apartment is a part of so as to prevent anybody else from coming to that conclusion and to affirm that his denial of it being her was in fact the truth and not some sort of misdirection.

To me, there's just so much more evidence, no matter how circumstantial it may be, that the apparition is meant to be Yui that it's hard to actually entertain the idea seriously that it could be Misato or Rei instead. The connections between it and those two are just too tenuous to really stand up for me. The only connection to Misato is the hair style, but again, it's the same hair style in ep.16 of the anime, and when it appears and embraces Shinji just as his life support runs out, he says, "Mother?", and then has an interaction with her, if not a sort of rudimentary dialog with her (talking about it showing him holding out his handed cupping a red orb, and then the shot changing to a female figure with the face scratched and blurred out and Yui winds up stating something like. "well that's good for you then." You also can't forget that Unit-01, at the very end of EoE and Manga's equivalent portion is shown to have long, flowing blue hair, so really the longer hair points about as much to her (as she then exists, after becoming one with the Eva) as it does Misato.



What exactly is meant about unit-02 acting as an Ark for the flood of Third Impact and what all that entails is up for debate. It's worth mentioning thqt SEELE, at least in the anime version of EoE specifically state to Gendo that they do not intend to use Unit-01 as a personal Ark to avoid the death that Third Impact will cause, because they intend for everybody to die... as part of the "red earth purification ritual" where humanity is purified through indiscriminate death. Whether that means they wish to return inside the Egg of Lilith/the black moon to exist as an amalgamated super being that is just a giant sea of LCL, or what is harder to determine... what exactly the difference between the complementing and joining/fusion of all of humanity's souls into an individual existence in a giant sea of LCL and the joining/fusion of all of humanity's souls into the individual that is Unit-01 is, I don't know. The only clue about this comes form them being upset by Unit-01's awakening and ingestion of an S2 engine into itself, saying it has attained an absolute existence and that they did not intend to create a new God (iirc, rather, the goal was to both kill God and have all of humanity become a single entity, which they saw as the next step in evolution, which also somehow would result in all of humanity not only becoming one with one another, but one with God/become God as well),

I think the main difference is that becoming one with Unit-01 is that Unit-01, rather explicitly in the manga, is shown to possess a personality of its own, and so it's own individual nature... in other words, it has personhood and a sense of self (as well as godhood after manifesting an S2 engine). In the anime it appears SEELE doesn't desire to merge with Unit-01, and this is the only reason I can think of. It seems more like they want to unify humanity into a single existence, but in doing so in the particular way they mean to go about it, eliminating all individuality and self-hood/person-hood in the process. In the manga it seems as though they, the members of SEELE, instead intend to become one with Unit-01 themselves and then otherwise use the Third Impact to cause all other people to perish, forever excluded form the Unit-01+Yui+SEELE super being/God.

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Re: The relation between Yui and Rei

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Postby orcot » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:04 am

View Original PostStrokeMeGoat wrote:Why are you assuming that Yui is trying to manipulate Shinji in such a negative and borderline, if not totally hostile manner? Why would she feel the need to traumatize him (or otherwise not come to the conclusion that there are more effective, less coercive, and more healthy ways of affecting his behavior) in order to get him to act according with her wishes, especially given he's already been traumatized plenty by her disappearance, Gendo's rejection of him, and his experiences piloting the Eva and fighting the Angels? I feel like specifically choosing to control his behavior with the legitimate intent to cause him trauma in order to bring about that control is not only straight up mean, but overkill.


I believe mean is a understatement, she is more of a mean deranged manipulative sociopathic werewolf. I also do Believe Shinji was not the only person being traumatized by Yui. (based on the manga) When Rei visited Fuyutsuki in the form of Yui (stage 92 last volume). It is made clear she manipulated Gendo also in her actions and Fuyutsuki regrets either his part in it, then it's unclear he either regrets having ever anything to do with Yui or realized it was Rei as he asked "Yui" if she has found Yui.
When Shinji and Gendo have their conversation (stage 78 volume 12) Gendo straight out says the origen of his hate for Shinji lays in the way Yui treated him afther Shinji was born. He was jealess that all her affection went to Shinji, over the course of the manga it is made clear that Yui wanted a family it is never made clear that she never loved Gendo he was yust a tool for her to manipulate.
Don't forget Gendo's contact with STEELE came from Yui not from Gendo, it was also Yui who started project E (making the evangelions). She also left clear instructions to make sure Gendo would continue his behaviour trough Fuyutsuki.

I would even go as far to give Gendo a pass on his behaviour using the Arnold Rimmer defence, yes he did what he did out of his own free wil, but he should have never been given the task in the first place. And was placed in that role (and manipulted) by people who knew how he would react.

View Original PostStrokeMeGoat wrote:Like, maybe you could argue that bringing him to observe the contact experiment was meant to specifically cause him some manner of trauma, but Yui exhibits a very consistent attitude, outlook, and pattern of behavior what little of which we see of her throughout the series. The Manga, if anything, only solidifies that she's consistent with what she says, does, and says she believes by providing us with more scenes with her being a central actor in it. This outlook of hers is one that's of hope and determination to survive and to continue having the will to live.

You ever wonder why Gendo was "saved" from the second impact in antartica? He was assosiated to SEELE at the time but it is not made clear if he was a full member at the time. Was the second impact realy a accident? Kaworu was made in the process in a similar mater like Rei later but less destructive. Again I see Yui's hand over it. Meaning she risked the live of so many people and was for her part responsible of the second impact she let it happen and she benefitted from it.

View Original PostStrokeMeGoat wrote:Shinji was arguably already socially inept and dysfunctional when it comes to relationships with others and believing he has inherent value as a person himself, and having to pilot the Eva and fight the Angels just sends him spiraling into depression and self-loathing. I don't think [*]anybody[/*] in the right frame of mind could find the idea of going about manipulating an emotionally and psychologically damaged 14 year old boy (who, by the way,has been tasked with piloting the only weapons capable of defending the Earth from super beings whose very nature draws them into causing humanity's extinction ...because literally only he and 2 others are even capable of synchronizing with and piloting the weapons) into saving humanity from the Third Impact and HIP by inflicting even greater trauma on him remotely viable at all. There's a significantly higher chance that employing such methods would cause the exact opposite effect.

Shinji was 4 at the time it would have been weird to not be socially inept at the time.
Yui can and Yui did. Yui had a clear idea what was going to happen during the experiment, taking care of the next of kin is amongst the first thing you should do when you know you are going to do. In a way she probably did to Ensure it would be as miserable as possible.
Also remember that confirmed afther zeruel Yui is capable to speak in full sentences, either to Shinji or to Rei, she yust chooses not to. A caring Yui would have had a "if the emperor had a text-to-speech device" moment. It would have been intresting to see how Gendo would have reacted if he knew he could have a conversation with Yui, using either Shinji or Rei as a middleman.

View Original PostStrokeMeGoat wrote:If you re-read the Manga's version of Third Impact and HIP, either Yui reminds Shinji of the promise she had him make to her when he was a toddler, or Shinji recalls it as a result of his conversation with Rei in the sea of LCL (can't remember which). When Yui, the various apparitions of Rei, Kaworu, and Unit-01 appear before Gendo and confront him about his treatment of Shinji and how he's just overall behaved throughout his life in general, Yui reminds him of how he felt when Shinji was born,,, the warmth, the love, the desire for him to succeed, and most of all the desire for him to live. Her having Shinji make a promise to her (idk what the promise was exactly, something to that results in saving humanity and has to do with the will to keep living and to survive), reminding him of it (or having Rei remind him or whatever happens), her reminding Gendo about essentially the same wishes and desires as well as responding to his question about having to raise their child through the hell of post-second impact by saying as long as somebody has to will and desire to live then they can always have the opportunity to be happy, her conversation with Fyutusuki where she mentions all that exact same stuff (which is why he begrudgingly accepts her desire to remain inside the Eva and hide that plan from Gendo), as well as that same line about as long as the Earth, moon, etc. still exist and one has the desire to live then they can find happiness being repeated at the end of the series (can't remember if it happens in the Manga but does in EoE)... it all establishes, imo, a pretty solid case for the idea that she wouldn't forcefully traumatize her son to save humanity, let alone even consider that an option capable of working.

In the manga she does seem to take some pity on Gendo, Gendo did had the potential to become a okay father, but honnestly it would have taken work. Had Yui for exmple died given birth he would have blamed Shinji (in a tywin nlannister way). Had Yui decided to manipulate Gendo by reassuring Gendo that she still loved him etc things would have turned out better, Gendo aftherall isn't that different from Shinji in that he needs constant approval and reassurence, he also seems to need someone around him be distant to be it Yui, Naoko or Ritsuko (in a surprisingly monogames way). Funnily enough Gendo can't be alone. Had Yui had a unrelated accident a week afther Shinji was born, Gendo's relation with Shinji would have been closer to his relation with Rei.

View Original PostStrokeMeGoat wrote:What exactly is meant about unit-02 acting as an Ark for the flood of Third Impact and what all that entails is up for debate. It's worth mentioning thqt SEELE, at least in the anime version of EoE specifically state to Gendo that they do not intend to use Unit-01 as a personal Ark to avoid the death that Third Impact will cause, because they intend for everybody to die... as part of the "red earth purification ritual" where humanity is purified through indiscriminate death. Whether that means they wish to return inside the Egg of Lilith/the black moon to exist as an amalgamated super being that is just a giant sea of LCL, or what is harder to determine... what exactly the difference between the complementing and joining/fusion of all of humanity's souls into an individual existence in a giant sea of LCL and the joining/fusion of all of humanity's souls into the individual that is Unit-01 is, I don't know. The only clue about this comes form them being upset by Unit-01's awakening and ingestion of an S2 engine into itself, saying it has attained an absolute existence and that they did not intend to create a new God (iirc, rather, the goal was to both kill God and have all of humanity become a single entity, which they saw as the next step in evolution, which also somehow would result in all of humanity not only becoming one with one another, but one with God/become God as well),

It is still unclear to me what second impact is or what the different options are. By the end it seems it is a yes or no question accept or reject. With the option to save humanity or a portion of it inside unit 01 that can be rereleased afther the event.

View Original PostStrokeMeGoat wrote:I think the main difference is that becoming one with Unit-01 is that Unit-01, rather explicitly in the manga, is shown to possess a personality of its own, and so it's own individual nature... in other words, it has personhood and a sense of self (as well as godhood after manifesting an S2 engine). In the anime it appears SEELE doesn't desire to merge with Unit-01, and this is the only reason I can think of. It seems more like they want to unify humanity into a single existence, but in doing so in the particular way they mean to go about it, eliminating all individuality and self-hood/person-hood in the process. In the manga it seems as though they, the members of SEELE, instead intend to become one with Unit-01 themselves and then otherwise use the Third Impact to cause all other people to perish, forever excluded form the Unit-01+Yui+SEELE super being/God.

I do not believe Unit has a soul of it's own all the roaring and snarling is yust Yui, that said I do believe unit O1 could house more then 1 soul.

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Re: The relation between Yui and Rei

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Postby Blockio » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:40 am

View Original Postorcot wrote:I believe mean is a understatement, she is more of a mean deranged manipulative sociopathic werewolf. I also do Believe Shinji was not the only person being traumatized by Yui. (based on the manga) When Rei visited Fuyutsuki in the form of Yui (stage 92 last volume). It is made clear she manipulated Gendo also in her actions and Fuyutsuki regrets either his part in it, then it's unclear he either regrets having ever anything to do with Yui or realized it was Rei as he asked "Yui" if she has found Yui.
When Shinji and Gendo have their conversation (stage 78 volume 12) Gendo straight out says the origen of his hate for Shinji lays in the way Yui treated him afther Shinji was born. He was jealess that all her affection went to Shinji, over the course of the manga it is made clear that Yui wanted a family it is never made clear that she never loved Gendo he was yust a tool for her to manipulate.
Don't forget Gendo's contact with STEELE came from Yui not from Gendo, it was also Yui who started project E (making the evangelions). She also left clear instructions to make sure Gendo would continue his behaviour trough Fuyutsuki.

The manga is a seperate canon that carries no implication for the TV series or movies. Sadamoto fucking up character motivations in his rendition has ZERO significance for the interpretation of the TV series. Also even with on the scale of the manga alone, your "manipulative sociopathic werewolf" is complete and utter bullshit.
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Re: The relation between Yui and Rei

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Postby orcot » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:54 am

View Original PostBlockio wrote:The manga is a seperate canon that carries no implication for the TV series or movies. Sadamoto fucking up character motivations in his rendition has ZERO significance for the interpretation of the TV series. Also even with on the scale of the manga alone, your "manipulative sociopathic werewolf" is complete and utter bullshit.

Well both in the manga and the anime, she eats a angel (to gain the S2 engine) I also remembered that in the anime she bites gendo's head of but did not see that in episode 1-26 maybe it was in the movie, our box does not include the end of evangelion movie.
So yeah that including all the roaring, snarling explains the wherewolf comparison I made.

Manipulative, doe this even need to be said? Everything she does is maliciously manipulative, causing a trauma on both Shinji and Gendo. Yui was already pretty deep into Seele so she probably had something to do with the second impact herself. Gendo was transfered the day before it was probably Yui who bothered to save him meaning she knew what was going to happen, in short everything around her stinks.

sociopathic, well she is not a psychopath in that she has some morality, but it is definitly the end justifies the means with her ending up a god that saves whatever of humanity that she didn't kill of. Yui probably could have prevented the second impact if she choosed so, she could also had uterly destroyed lilith either by destroying her body or creating Rei (lilith soul) and letting her die and make her soul go to wherever souls go if left alone. Preventing third impact from ever happening. I don't think she is a optimist I think the is a hard core determinist.

I also see very little reason to asume Yui is a decend person.
Also I'm a fan off Sadamoto work and consider it canon. True it tells a slightly different version that isn't consistent with the anime but then again if I remember corretly the movie is also inconsistent with the anime not to mention rebuild from what I hear.

I don't really mind you having a different opinion and being driven abouth it. But how would you describe Yui in a way that explains her actions, the beserk mode the cannabilisme the desire to cause trauma, her connections to seele, her god complex, the cruelty, the savagery, the secrets, the assasination plot on her,etc… These things must have some sort of explanation

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Re: The relation between Yui and Rei

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Postby Blockio » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:54 pm

View Original Postorcot wrote:Well both in the manga and the anime, she eats a angel (to gain the S2 engine) I also remembered that in the anime she bites gendo's head of but did not see that in episode 1-26 maybe it was in the movie, our box does not include the end of evangelion movie.
So yeah that including all the roaring, snarling explains the wherewolf comparison I made.

Manipulative, doe this even need to be said? Everything she does is maliciously manipulative, causing a trauma on both Shinji and Gendo. Yui was already pretty deep into Seele so she probably had something to do with the second impact herself. Gendo was transfered the day before it was probably Yui who bothered to save him meaning she knew what was going to happen, in short everything around her stinks.

Yui probably could have prevented the second impact if she choosed so, she could also had uterly destroyed lilith either by destroying her body or creating Rei (lilith soul) and letting her die and make her soul go to wherever souls go if left alone. Preventing third impact from ever happening. I don't think she is a optimist I think the is a hard core determinist.

I also see very little reason to asume Yui is a decend person.
Also I'm a fan off Sadamoto work and consider it canon. True it tells a slightly different version that isn't consistent with the anime but then again if I remember corretly the movie is also inconsistent with the anime not to mention rebuild from what I hear.

I'm sorry to have to put it like that, but reading this made my head hurt. Please don't take this personally, but I fear I'll have to dismantle this entire thing.

0) Yes, there are paralleles. This does not mean that they are the same canon. Two different timelines. Almost all plot points of the manga that differ from the show make little to no sense. If you want to talk about the show, leave the manga out of it.
End of Eva is canon to NGE, zero discussion there.
Rebuild is also its own canon and should be left out of this debate completely

1) Yuis intent for Instrumentality is specifically to not make it a hellscape. She knows what Seele and Gendo are up to, and is presenting a better option that gives humanity a choice. Seele and Gendo's scenario both completely leave out any choice for the ten billion other people caught in it.

2) Yui had nothing to do with Second Impact. Gendo had. That's why he left; Yui didn't tell him anything, he himself knew, or even set things up to happen that way.

3) Yui did not kill off anyone. the fact that people are able to return from the sea of LCL at the end of EoE proves that everyone in there is still alive.

you are letting an irrational hatred for a fictional character blind you to things that are laid out in plain sight sometimes, and that people have been telling you repeatedly.
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Re: The relation between Yui and Rei

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:10 am

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Re: The relation between Yui and Rei

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Postby orcot » Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:57 am

View Original PostBlockio wrote:I'm sorry to have to put it like that, but reading this made my head hurt. Please don't take this personally, but I fear I'll have to dismantle this entire thing.

0) Yes, there are paralleles. This does not mean that they are the same canon. Two different timelines. Almost all plot points of the manga that differ from the show make little to no sense. If you want to talk about the show, leave the manga out of it.
End of Eva is canon to NGE, zero discussion there.
Rebuild is also its own canon and should be left out of this debate completely


okay zero discussion, but I was under the impression that in the anime Shinji rejects instrumentality outright and nothing really happens, having yust seen the anime Rei never betrays Gendo NERV never get's attacked and Misato and Ritusuko are alive and mostly well (ritsuko is in jail and her relation with Gendo is never outright confirmed but heavly implied.

View Original PostBlockio wrote:1) Yuis intent for Instrumentality is specifically to not make it a hellscape. She knows what Seele and Gendo are up to, and is presenting a better option that gives humanity a choice. Seele and Gendo's scenario both completely leave out any choice for the ten billion other people caught in it.

I believe her intentions are to become a god. All of her efforts go to this goal she never atempted to prevent second impact or third impact, Rei in Unit 00 does more in trying the prevent third impact with getting rid of the spear of longinus, then Yui ever did. Had she removed Liliths soul and send it to the aftherlive lilith could not have been used. She might sweet talk but it, but her actions tell differently.
View Original PostBlockio wrote:2) Yui had nothing to do with Second Impact. Gendo had. That's why he left; Yui didn't tell him anything, he himself knew, or even set things up to happen that way.

Whilst it was Gendo in antartica they where working on adam in what would eventualy result both in second impact and kaworu (Makes you wonder how they found kaworu). Yui was already involved in project E so she was definitly involved somewhere in the fringes. Some of their techniques used in the katsuragi expedition where at either used or where at least inspirational in the creating of Rei, giving that fuyutsuki wasn't involved with SEELE at the time. That info probably came from Yui given her profesion (the katsuragi scientist where dead and YUI had the scientific knowledge to understand what they where trying to do).
Meanwhile I don't think Gendo meant for Rei to get hurt during the EVA-00 experiments nor was it a "the end justified the means" situation I think that their are core concepts abouth Eva that he yust don't get, making it difficult for him to foresee problems and making him unprepared for when they do.
Meaning I did not think Gendo foresaw second impact.

View Original PostBlockio wrote:3) Yui did not kill off anyone. the fact that people are able to return from the sea of LCL at the end of EoE proves that everyone in there is still alive.

No? The organisation behind her can be said to be responsible for second impact and Yui deffinitly benefitted from it. Gendo's survival also means she had some influence over the event that she did not utilise be it either trough her husband or by saving her husband and understanding the risks involved. This gives her shared blame for second impact.
It is still a literal hellscape also if I was turned into LCL and was given the option to return to the world it would not take me 5 minutes to make that decision. Shinji and Asuka seemed to be pretty much alone on the world for way to long.

View Original PostBlockio wrote:you are letting an irrational hatred for a fictional character blind you to things that are laid out in plain sight sometimes, and that people have been telling you repeatedly.

Maybe, but Yui in the form of Eva 01 is dangerous, she is also a cannibal. Eating the angel can be sort of forgiven as it gives her a S2 engine, in a way it's like getting a donor organ with the difference that the subject is still alive and your injested it by eating it, UNit 04 wend critical whilst they tried to instal the core of shamshel so they're where cleaner options avaible. I also believe that the episode with leliel could have been made more artsy (cheaper) and had Shinji Yui and leliel go into a discussion with Leliel ending up giving his core to Yui. Yust make it realy unclear what exactly is happening with some exposition abouth the human instrumentality project and let her keep the core silent until midway her fight with zeruel.
However biting of Gendo's head when she could have killed him a million different ways that's yust vile

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Just to remark that the sentiment that Yui was the villain of the piece is fairly common. Here are some earlier iterations
Thanks I will read them

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Re: The relation between Yui and Rei

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Postby Reichu » Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:33 pm

Eva-01 appears to Gendo as his version of the "thing you desire most". He gets Yui, in berserk Eva form, killing him and partially devouring him. Part of this is Gendo getting something he feels he deserves (a gruesome death - his "punishment") from someone he loves. But he also gets something else he wants, which is to become one with Yui. Eating is the most intimate form of violence there is, since what is eaten literally becomes part of you.

Yui's depiction is steeped heavily in psychoanalytical concepts -- mother and god archetypes, etc. -- so you need to have some familiarity with those to see what Anno is actually doing. The way you talk about her, it seems you're completely blind to all this and are basing your thoughts on a kind of superficial gut reaction. It's making you miss a lot of Eva's richness. For example -- sure, Yui beats up a monster child and eats him, but did you pick up on how that whole scene has a symbolic narrative about the brutal power struggle between the sexes? This metanarrative extends into EoE, with Seele attempting to harness primordial female power toward annihilation, and Yui ultimately liberating herself of all male influence (bending even the phallic Spear of Longinus to her will), and freeing humanity in turn, in a sequence framed as nothing short of triumphant. Yes, she had every intention of becoming a "god", but this was to become an Ark to ferry humanity to another world. Earth is finite, but through the generative power of a succession of god(desse)s, humanity can continue indefinitely.

(More on that angle in this thread: post/893828/Kaworu-and-SEELE-Gendos-Plans-Angel-Rebirth/#893828 )

One thing that's frequently neglected in the "Yui is bad" take is Fuyutsuki's acceptance of 3I's inevitability. Everything that happens is predicated on the idea that it cannot be prevented. This is such a sticking point for people that I wish the show hadn't glossed it over, but ... it is what it is. The conflict between Angels and Lilin is treated in a similar sort of way -- "this had to happen, even though it sucks" -- so perhaps the answer is something as 'simple' as "two kinds of humanity sharing a planet is metaphysically untenable; a single world can only support one", and the successive Impacts do something to hit the "reset" button on everything and prevent a much worse catastrophe further down the road. Ecosphere reset; Yui uses her powers to get the Fruit of Lifers off Earth; mission accomplished.

All that said, Yui is absolutely meant to have a dark side. Her iconography leans into a pretty raw "Angel / Devil" dichotomy. But both sides count equally toward the character. They're two halves of a whole.

Condemning the cast is a favorite pastime of the Eva "fandom", but it's pretty much missing the point entirely. NGE doesn't really care about that kind of thing -- doing the whole "look at this piece of shit person, shame on them, good thing you're better and can peacock your moral superiority to others!" song and dance. As a work, NGE cares about its characters in a sort of "tough love" way -- it has nothing but genuine compassion for them, but it doesn't shrink away from brutal honesty, either. The point of the honesty is not for us in the audience to feel smug; it's so we can reflect upon our own humanity. Ultimately, I think criticising the characters is fine, but under the same conditions that criticizing yourself is okay: when you understand and love the person in question.
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Re: The relation between Yui and Rei

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Postby orcot » Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:57 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote: Eva-01 appears to Gendo as his version of the "thing you desire most". He gets Yui, in berserk Eva form, killing him and partially devouring him. Part of this is Gendo getting something he feels he deserves (a gruesome death - his "punishment") from someone he loves. But he also gets something else he wants, which is to become one with Yui. Eating is the most intimate form of violence there is, since what is eaten literally becomes part of you.

People usualy get the most comfort Rei can provide in the 30 or so second they get (doesn't Always work and when not she tries to be quick), then People turn to LCL, gendo who's live anbition was to be reunited with his wife does not turn to LCL but get his head eaten by Yui. I don't believe he ever wanted to die.

View Original PostReichu wrote:Yui's depiction is steeped heavily in psychoanalytical concepts -- mother and god archetypes, etc. -- so you need to have some familiarity with those to see what Anno is actually doing. The way you talk about her, it seems you're completely blind to all this and are basing your thoughts on a kind of superficial gut reaction. It's making you miss a lot of Eva's richness. For example -- sure, Yui beats up a monster child and eats him, but did you pick up on how that whole scene has a symbolic narrative about the brutal power struggle between the sexes? This metanarrative extends into EoE, with Seele attempting to harness primordial female power toward annihilation, and Yui ultimately liberating herself of all male influence (bending even the phallic Spear of Longinus to her will).

Lilith is the ancestor of humanity she is no more man then women as humanity she can be represented by both (a bid like gaia). That said Rei is female. And lilith chooses that form to perform third impact had Rei been male Lilith would have choosen a male form.
Breaking a lance also means, standing your ground,https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/break+a+lance. Sometimes afther winning a war breaking someone lance is to show you defeated them. (I'm sure I've seen a roman coin with Germania and a broken lance a time ago).
That said the board members of SEELE could have used a women in them put some diversification there.

View Original PostReichu wrote:, and freeing humanity in turn, in a sequence framed as nothing short of triumphant. Yes, she had every intention of becoming a "god", but this was to become an Ark to ferry humanity to another world. Earth is finite, but through the generative power of a succession of god(desse)s, humanity can continue indefinitely.

(More on that angle in this thread: post/893828/Kaworu-and-SEELE-Gendos-Plans-Angel-Rebirth/#893828 )

I will read it

View Original PostReichu wrote:One thing that's frequently neglected in the "Yui is bad" take is Fuyutsuki's acceptance of 3I's inevitability. Everything that happens is predicated on the idea that it cannot be prevented. This is such a sticking point for people that I wish the show hadn't glossed it over, but ... it is what it is. The conflict between Angels and Lilin is treated in a similar sort of way -- "this had to happen, even though it sucks" -- so perhaps the answer is something as 'simple' as "two kinds of humanity sharing a planet is metaphysically untenable; a single world can only support one", and the successive Impacts do something to hit the "reset" button on everything and prevent a much worse catastrophe further down the road. Ecosphere reset; Yui uses her powers to get the Fruit of Lifers off Earth; mission accomplished.

All that said, Yui is absolutely meant to have a dark side. Her iconography leans into a pretty raw "Angel / Devil" dichotomy. But both sides count equally toward the character. They're two halves of a whole.

Condemning the cast is a favorite pastime of the Eva "fandom", but it's pretty much missing the point entirely. NGE doesn't really care about that kind of thing -- doing the whole "look at this piece of shit person, shame on them, good thing you're better and can peacock your moral superiority to others!" song and dance. As a work, NGE cares about its characters in a sort of "tough love" way -- it has nothing but genuine compassion for them, but it doesn't shrink away from brutal honesty, either. The point of the honesty is not for us in the audience to feel smug; it's so we can reflect upon our own humanity. Ultimately, I think criticising the characters is fine, but under the same conditions that criticizing yourself is okay: when you understand and love the person in question.


well all of the characters are terrible in their own right. That said theirs a special place for cannibals also humanity comes from the seed of knowledge adam comes from thes seed of life. Yui for some reason, resembles adam closer then lilith wich is weird because unit 01 is made of lilith. Yui also is pretty content to ignore humanity as we only see Shinji's perspective and nothing of Yui's perspective who claims all the souls of humanity at the end. Yes they can leave but seeing it from her perspective would have been nice aswel.

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Re: The relation between Yui and Rei

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Postby AWinters » Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:13 am

Just to discuss some points brought up in this thread;
Whether Yui intended to become Unit 01 or if it was an accident is something that's still up for discussion and I still see it being debated here and there.

One bit of evidence has me leaning more towards the "it was accident" theory.
In the episode where Shinji was absorbed by the Eva, Retsuko was telling Misato that this had happened before, but their lengthy rescue mission was a failure (she didn't name names, but it later became clear that she was referring to Yui).
From there it seemed implied that Rei was an accident, the result of the failed rescue mission.
It's quite apparent that there's none of Yui herself in Rei, only her DNA. Yui's DNA gave Rei her human form, but all of Yui's memories, consciousness and soul stayed in the Eva.

As a side note: When they finally ejected the plug, discovering that Shinji wasn't there, Masato hugged his suit, cried and demanded for Eva to "give him back!"
I believe that Yui was planning to keep him, worried that there's nobody in his life to love him, but when she saw Misato begging for him back, she saw that he was loved by the person who was taking care of him, so she instantly gave Shinji back to Misato.

What I don't understand is; if all Gendo wanted was to become one with Yui, why didn't he just pilot the Eva?
It's also implied that Shinji told someone that the angel and Unit 01 made contact with him while he was absorbed- even Seele had been informed of this.
I'm surprised Gendo wasn't at his bedside, bombarding him with questions about his conversation with Yui.

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Re: The relation between Yui and Rei

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Postby Blockio » Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:19 am

Yui definitely planned on getting absorbed so she could cross the plans for Seele's Instrumentality. But for the sake of keeping it secret from Seele, she couldn't tell anyone, otherwise they could have taken measures to prevent her interference.

That's why they could not recover her, she wanted to stay in Unit 01; it's also why Shinji took this long to reform, because up until he reformed, he wanted to stay in there as well.
Why don't you save the Princess next time instead of being such a baby? She would love it and maybe you could get a sweet kiss. ~ sadly not Mari in Q (Joseki)
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
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