Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans / Angel Rebirth

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Postby Reichu » Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:36 pm

@GuiBiancarelli: The reason I say that Armisael is using the Angels' actual souls is because we know that the Angels are biologically humanoid. This is implied in the main show, and further corroborated by EoE: they're a humanity that leaves human form behind. Ergo, the forms that the Angels take on are personal -- the result of their A.T. Fields shaping their bodies. Furthermore, Armisael would have no way of knowing what the Angels' respective forms are, unless, well, they told her. And if they're around to tell her, then it doesn't make much sense to not use their souls for the resurrection. :wink: One last quick observation is that Sachiel first appears as a one-faced being, but develops two faces after being injured by the N2 mine. The Sachiel that emerges from Eva-00 has two faces, which makes perfect sense if Sachiel is attempting to manifest from his personal image, as opposed to him being 'recreated from scratch' or what have you.

The Angels not being represented in the mindscape encounter between Rei and Armisael is non-indicative of whether or not they're there. Rei bluntly mentions, for example, "the me within the Eva" (the part of Lilith's soul in Eva-00's core), but this aspect of Rei does not participate in the conversation.

>Besides, the term "man" is used in the show only when referring to mankind as in "Homo sapiens collective", in contrast to the more generic "human", which applies to Angels and Lilin alike.

In this particular case, "man" is otoko, or "male person". As far as the claims above: all three of the major "human" terms in Japanese (hito, ningen, jinrui) are used at some point to refer to Adam's Children. (Armisael is "a hito/person that we call an Angel"; the Angels collectively are "a jinrui/humanity that cast aside ningen/human form".)

Regarding the lake scene in general, I don't believe that it's MERELY the Angels speaking. The scene is (IMO) deliberately designed to be read two different ways -- it's both Seele and the Angels at the same time. (For a very crude comparison, consider how episode 16 had Shinji debating with both himself and Leliel simultaneously.) Another time, I will (attempt to) walk through both versions, consulting the original Japanese while doing so. (I'll address your other points at this time.) It could go absolutely nowhere, but I figure it's worth a shot. :tongue:

View Original PostGuiBiancarelli wrote:Gendo's (...) plans for 3I.

This seems pretty on-point to me. Good breakdown. :thumbsup: Only parts I feel any need to comment upon:

>We see him fusing the Adam's sample with his hand and taking it to some part of Rei's interior (probably her uterus)

The "impregnation" imagery is certainly there, though to be pedantic, the uterus only goes up to navel height when it's been distended with child. :tongue: The default location of the uterus is right around where the abdomen ends and the groin begins (i.e. the cutoff point for oversized bellies). This is another "NGE doing two things at once" deals -- Gendo is "impregnating" Rei with the embryo via his arm-phallus, but also Gendo's arm is a symbolic umbilical cord connecting him and Rei, which she, of course, severs when she doesn't need him anymore.

> without her soul the most meaningful action she took in the entire show was to grow legs. Presumably, Seeds of Life (or at least, the ones without the FoL) were "single use only".

Lilith's case may have been unique. Consider that she just hung on that cross for ten or so years barely doing anything -- comparing her state during Eva-01's "birthing" to when she's seen in episode #15, there's no real difference other than that Eva-01 has been separated, Lilith's lower body is bubbling up and sprouting little legs, and her arms are fully restored.

SPOILER: Show
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The Spear is stuck in her for well less than a year, and the second it's removed, Lilith regenerates. It goes against traditional wisdom about the Spear, but the implication is pretty clear to me: it helped her regenerate. Why would it regenerate Lilith, whereas it froze Adam and killed Arael?

rambling that went on for too long again  SPOILER: Show
Simplest explanation, for me, is that the Eva 2 information on Spears is misleading at best and violates careful observation of their actual in-show behavior. They aren't "security devices" (which, EVEN IN Eva 2, fail to do anything to meaningfully earn this description); they're the helpmate of the Seed to whom they belong. Hence, the Spear we see in the show is LIlith's, and the replicas are based upon it (very directly implied when the replicas burst into bundles of legs in the process of reverting to LCL). As the Spears have their own energy supply, a Seed that only has the Fruit of Knowledge could hypothetically use her Spear to get around the "no S2 engine" limitation.

The position Adam is frozen in, within the White Moon, strongly resembles a drowned corpse (and even seems to be buried in ice), suggesting Adam is impaled in the subterranean pool. (The Moons have near-identical configurations, so there should be an equivalent to the "salt pillar room" where 01 and 02 fight.) Had Adam simply been taken by surprise and skewered from behind by her own Spear, one might expect a very different pose, something closer to what happened to Eva-02. Spear goes all the way through body; Seed/Eva falls until the tines of the spear catch on the ground; Seed/Eva is propped up in an awkward position. But this isn't what we see. Adam looks like she was forcibly held down in the pool and had the Spear driven through her spine, quite possibly until most of the tines' length was buried in the ground/floor. Meaning: Lilith did it. (This would make episode 24 a ceremonial recreation of their battle, ending with "Adam" once again defeated.) She sacrificed her Spear to put Adam into stasis.*

(EDIT: If some of this sounds a bit too over-the-top, a little corroboration. The layers of the Moons leading down to Terminal Dogma are named after the layers of Hell in Dante's Inferno, which implies that the bottom is Cocytus. This lines up nicely with there being a subterranean lake -- I have checked the script, and that IS water and not just salt :wink: -- at the bottom of the shaft. Adam's Cocytus would of course be frozen; Lilith imprisoning Adam there would be logically consistent since Adam could be considered the Devil to Lilith's God; blah blah blah.)

This explains why Lilith resorts to using LCL as a mode of creation (she no longer has her mate and has to generate life the REALLY LONG WAY around) and why Lilith is effectively helpless later. This also accounts for the complete weirdness of a Spear being sent to Antarctica from the Dead Sea -- because that was Adam's, and Lilith chucked it out of the White Moon to keep it away from its partner.


supplemental images for above  SPOILER: Show
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View Original PostDerantor wrote:Huh, ignoring the lack of support for a moment, that actually sounds rather convincing. Notice how it is always Fuyutsuki who speaks to Yui and explains what she wants?
Off the top of my head, Gendo never does that. He only wants her back and complains when she won't let herself be piloted by the dummy plug. That would explain why Gendo (apparently) has yet another, different plan from Yui's: She never told him, she only told Fuyutsuki. He might not be her love, but he definitely is the one she trusts. The best friend. The nice guy. And then he fathers her future husband with her to replace himself. :facepalm: Yes, somehow I can see exactly that happening. It also forces Gendo to become Oedipus, which fits right in. (snip)

Yeah, even as "subliminally-encoded complete batshit insanity", I quite like it. It gives closure to Fuyutsuki's character where previously none existed. He is trusted by Yui so completely that he's entrusted with a level of power that could hypothetically supplant her own. And also, if I'm on the right track about the Spear being the male complement to the Seed -- damn, that is intimate. That shakes up their previous relationship in interesting ways. Officially speaking, Fuyutsuki would be the Divine Mate. His total devotion to both Yui and to humanity itself makes him completely perfect for the role.

full crack speculah  SPOILER: Show
Gendo possibly coming back as a humanoid son-husband makes the situation more emotionally complicated, but it's actually not a bad compromise, in my opinion. Both men would get to love Yui in very different but equally important ways. (For a Seed, the Spear is irreplaceable; nobody else can fulfill his role. But the Spear has left his human form behind, while the Seed has not, and even giant god-women have needs... presumably. :nyao: ) Fuyutsuki goes from being Gendo's reluctant father figure to his actual father. With Yui, things are taken to their natural Freudian conclusion, as you mentioned.

Now, there is also the utterly absurd idea I mentioned earlier about Gendo turning his soul into a woman's so he could become Adam. His death scene could be presaging an entirely different fate for him. He doesn't get to become Adam, but... Consider, he is visited by the avatars of the three Seeds on Earth. Yui and Rei actually make sense, but Kaworu only kinda sorta makes sense on account of Gendo fusing himself to the Adam embryo. On its own, this hardly feels like reason enough to justify one of Kaworu's only appearances, so let's just say that it's not the full reason. Maybe another reason for Kaworu being there is because Gendo's death as a Lilin is also serving as his induction into another form of being. The Seeds are welcoming him into their club. Say good-bye to your male parts -- you definitely won't be needing those in the next life!

Yes, completely and utterly absurd, and I'm not sure how much I actually buy into it. Gendo failing so completely as a father that he's rebooted into a mother for the next life is kind of morbidly amusing, though. Also, if Gendo becomes a Seed, that means that Yui could hypothetically kick him... er, her?... off the planet to start a career in colonization whenever she gets sick of dealing with his... er, her?... shit. Either that, or Gendo gets to stay there and share the baby-making duty. Lots of souls that need bodies, after all...

*Gendo as an Eva-looking thing laboring to lay a giant egg*
"I see. So this is my retribution..."


EDIT: Added some pics and stuff about Cocytus.
EDIT2: Added something about human terms re: Angels.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Re: Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans / Angel Rebirth

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Postby Derantor » Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:01 pm

@Reichu: Ah, thank you for explaining that in detail, that makes your logic much more apparent to me! I think I'll can accept Yui taking many souls with her now (as an added side effect, that solves another problem which was bugging me (how to explain a large number of people not returning to earth)), whatever the eventual outcome. There are many things I want to reply to, but I have to order my thoughts a little, so I'll just comment on your Full Crack Speculah (admit it, you are using that term only because it sounds like the plural of speculum! :devil: ).

Epileptic Trees  SPOILER: Show
:D The thought of Gendo in that position made me laugh pretty hard. Maybe that was exactly what he saw when he said "So this is my punishment": His future as second wife to Fuyutsuki, who is now both his father and lover, while his wife is his sister and mother, with the option to send him off to another planet if he misbehaves. I'll spare you the rest of my in-depth thoughts on how that would actually work out in glorious, physical detail, given that they now possess Eva-like bodies. (Though, given your art, that might just be exactly the kind of stuff you delight in) :devil:


@GuiBiancarelli: Regarding "A man, who is not one of us": Is that distinction between "man" and "human" actually that strict? If not, the "not one of us" part could simply mean "not one of us angels", which would be worthy to point out since "opening pandoras box" is normally only something angels can do or would think about. As for the use of metaphor, it is not unreasonable to think that there exists some form of telepathy (or time travel, whichever suits you more) which would allow Kaworu to share his knowledge of mythology with the other angels, who then adopt a manner of speaking similiar to the one Kaworu has, which is in turn informed by his time in the hands of SEELE.

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Postby Rei IV » Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:34 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:
rambling that went on for too long again  SPOILER: Show
Simplest explanation, for me, is that the Eva 2 information on Spears is misleading at best and violates careful observation of their actual in-show behavior. They aren't "security devices" (which, EVEN IN Eva 2, fail to do anything to meaningfully earn this description); they're the helpmate of the Seed to whom they belong. Hence, the Spear we see in the show is LIlith's, and the replicas are based upon it (very directly implied when the replicas burst into bundles of legs in the process of reverting to LCL). As the Spears have their own energy supply, a Seed that only has the Fruit of Knowledge could hypothetically use her Spear to get around the "no S2 engine" limitation.

The position Adam is froze in, within the White Moon, strongly resembles a drowned corpse, suggesting Adam is impaled in the subterranean pool. (Moons have the same configurations, so there should be an equivalent to the "salt pillar room" where 01 and 02 fight.) Had Adam simply been taken by surprised and skewered from behind by her own Spear, one might expect a very different pose, something closer to what happened to Eva-02. Spear goes all the way through body; Seed/Eva falls until the tines of the spear catch on the ground; Seed/Eva is propped up in an awkward position. But this isn't what we see. Adam looks like she was forcibly held down in the pool and had the Spear driven through her spine, quite possibly until most of the tines' length was driven in the ground. Meaning: Lilith did it. (And episode 24 is a ceremonial recreation of the battle, ending with "Adam" once again defeated.) She sacrificed her Spear to put Adam into stasis.

This explains why Lilith resorts to using LCL as a mode of creation (she no longer has her mate and has to generate life the REALLY LONG WAY around) and why Lilith is effectively helpless later. This also accounts for the complete weirdness of a Spear being sent to Antarctica from the Dead Sea -- because that was Adam's, and Lilith chucked it out of the White Moon to keep it away from its partner.

This is fascinating and all but I'm really confused. I thought Adam had been dormant from the time Lilith accidentally arrived on Earth (and he had been there WAY before her) until the end of the 20 century with the Katsuragi expedition, which paved way for Second Impact and the current Evangelion time period. For this to work, Adam and Lilith, probably the later, have got to be outside of wherever the hell it is they've been dormant in (the moons, the cavities) at some point and have some sort of clash/fight, EVA-style, that leads to Adam being subdued and impaled with the Lance of Longinus and Lilith and her(future) progeny to reign supreme. But if that's the case, wouldn't have Kaworu been a lot more confrontational and hostile toward Rei, since she essentially dethroned him, in episode 24 (24')?

I don't want to be confrontational it's just I never got the impression Adam and Lilith were outside their respective White and Black Moons at any time while on Earth until the Katsuragi expedition and whenever the hell they found Lilith and the Black Moon (and whether was this before or after Second Impact). I maybe totally misunderstanding you or suffering from poor reading comprehension, so there's always that possibility.
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Postby Reichu » Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:18 am

@Rei IV: As far as I know, there's nothing that suggests that Adam and Lilith never once left their Moons. Unless I'm forgetting something major, the possibility is left wide open.

The reason for Adam being impaled and going into stasis is a mystery. It certainly didn't just happen all on its own. Adam arrived on Earth first, and Lilith is the invader who trashed the planet and usurped Adam's position. I find Eva2's "explanations" here... not really satisfactory; useful as inspiration in corroboration with careful observation of the show, but never to be given greater priority than the show's internal storytelling. (Or how my deranged mind interprets Eva's internal storytelling, anyway...)

What I'm suggesting is that none of this was an accident. Lilith crashing on Earth in the first place, given there was an entire galaxy to colonize, is unthinkably contrived... unless it happened entirely by her intent. (Eva 2 goes this route, but the motivation it gives to Lilith is pretty lame. Nothing that can't be fixed with head canon, of course.) At earliest convenience, Lilith would have invaded the White Moon. At this point, she and Adam fight, and, just like Eva-01 and Eva-02's fight, the outcome is determined at the bottom of the shaft. (I updated the post you responded to with a little extra information.) Lilith sacrifices her Spear to place Adam in stasis, casts Adam's Spear out of the White Moon (it eventually ends up at Qumran), and with her remaining energy she returns to her domain.

Since you mention Kaworu not being hostile toward Rei -- a possibility here is that Adam is simply like that. Someone who basically loves everybody, hates killing, and isn't capable of grudges. (Consider also: Kaworu's tenderness toward Shinji, considering the kid is responsible for killing many of Adam's children.) This kind of personality might work out fine for raising a family of rowdy god-children, but it's a bit of a detriment when you need to really take a stand and maybe hurt somebody to protect what's really important. (Gratuitous self-promotion: Kaworu will be reflecting upon the failures of Adam's personality within the next chapter or so of my fic.) Kaworu is sometimes regarded as an exaggerated version of Shinji, so... :nyao:
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby Rei IV » Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:52 am

Thanks for your response. I like your scenario if not for the sole fact it makes Adam and Lilith, well, alive. I tend to forget they're actual sentient beings, not just empty husks that simply arrived on Earth and remained dormant until the right conditions came along so having them to leave their surroundings, their respective moons, gives them a lot more agency. The circumstances that lead to Adam being impaled by the Lance of Longinus as a possible result of some sort of clash or event between the two is pretty neat too as well as a invasive, warmongering Lilith :hahaha: .
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Postby Shun » Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:41 am

@Reichu: There is one thing that is not clear to me. When you say that Adam gave the souls to the Angels during the Second Impact (opening Guf), is it a hypothesis (with some hints) or are there official sources that say so?
To understand: is it a fact like Gendo and Yui are Shinji's parents, the Longinus Spear was taken from the Dead Sea, or is it a hypothesis (with some hints) like Dirac Sea --> LCL Sea? :???:
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Postby Reichu » Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:43 am

View Original PostShun wrote:@Reichu: There is one thing that is not clear to me. When you say that Adam gave the souls to the Angels during the Second Impact (opening Guf), is it a hypothesis (with some hints) or are there official sources that say so?

The former. But it's fairly straightforward as speculations go.

(1) 2000 A.D.: Adam is awakened and opens her Gates of Guf.
(2) 2015 A.D.: Children of Adam start to reveal themselves, with one intercepted in the form of an unhatched egg.
(3) Ergo: The Angels being given souls triggered their incubation, which lasted approximately fifteen years.

It's the thoughts provoked by this observation that are far less straightforward. :tongue:

It's often suggested that the Angels' bodies were created on the day of Second Impact. I prefer the idea that their bodies already existed, as this neatly explains (in a way that enriches that lore rather than limiting us to a "just because!") how Seele knew how many Angels to expect.*

If this is true, then the Angels, not unlike the Evas, are born in a soulless state, and require ensoulment from an outside source after the fact. Why didn't Adam do it much earlier? Simple: Adam had the very reasonable expectation that nobody would be bothering her during her creation process, and since Earth was still a pretty terrible place at the time, there was absolutely no rush. So she may have been working on a clutch of eggs that was supposed to be much larger, but then Lilith showed up, ruining those plans and limiting Adam's children to the rather small number that we see. At Second Impact, then, Adam might act quickly to ensoul the existing Angels when it becomes clear she won't be able to achieve anything else before she dies.

* (The line in the episode 21' flashback about the, or a, spear being sent from the Dead Sea makes the most sense as an implicit explanation for the Dead Sea Scrolls' existence. In other words: Adam's Spear ended up in Qumran and inspired mystics to write the scrolls. The spear would know how many offspring Adam generated before Lilith put Adam into stasis, so this bit of information being passed onto the mystics can be justified.)

Rei IV wrote:Thanks for your response. (snip)I like your scenario if not for the sole fact it makes Adam and Lilith, well, alive. I tend to forget they're actual sentient beings, not just empty husks that simply arrived on Earth and remained dormant until the right conditions came along so having them to leave their surroundings, their respective moons, gives them a lot more agency. The circumstances that lead to Adam being impaled by the Lance of Longinus as a possible result of some sort of clash or event between the two is pretty neat too as well as a invasive, warmongering Lilith :hahaha: .

No problem. For you, anytime. :D

If you haven't seen this interview with Anno, you might find it interesting, since it brings up "Eva and Lilith" (Adam could be taken as implied) in the context of sci-fi and intelligence. Anno's response is of course barely helpful at all, but it does suggest that these things were on his mind to some extent.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby Shun » Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:08 am

@Reichu: Oh ok, thanks! I thought it was well-known information from somewhere, e.g. Evangelion Chronicles or something. Sometimes I lose my mind because of all this information! :lol:

But without the soul, how did the body exist? Without A.T. Field, and therefore without a soul, the body cannot support itself and take a shape. Kokoro no katachi, hito no katachi.
Eva are artificial robots, so the comparison with the Angels is wrong, analogous speech for Rei clones because they were created in laboratory. Angels and Lilin are natural, old school, first the soul then the body, while Eva and clones are artificial entities in which a soul was infused then, like in the Blue Water.
In my opinion, the simplest explanation is that when Lilith arrived on Earth Adam and the Angels fell into a dormant state, and them woke up from a coma when their progenitor Adam exploded. Not only it's simple and in accordance with the show information "shape of soul, shape of body" but it's also in accordance with Proposal, because the Angels were dormant since ancient times and awaken only after the Second Impact, and with EoE, because Misato says that Angels are an alternative human form, so like humans Angel's shape is very likely to depend on their soul.
One could also assume that the Angels were born body and soul on the day of the Second Impact, however I think the most likely hypothesis is the one I proposed to you, in according to the Proposal and sci-fi works such as The day the earth stood still and Mars (by Yokoyama Mitsuteru), in which there are sentinels on Earth since ancient times that then awaken in the present.

There is a nice (fan?) video by SORAYUNI about this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeoFnVoiQAs
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Re: Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans / Angel Rebirth

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Postby GuiBiancarelli » Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:25 pm

Armisael:
@Reichu: Yeah, it makes sense. Even if the Angel's Souls are not within Armisael, but hanging around or even in another place entirely, I think that it's plausible without too many assumptions that they would converge to Eva-00. I still think that would make sense to treat physical "insemination" as a separate thing to "Soul savaging", but even if it's not the case, the outcome seems to be pretty much the same here.

---

Lake Clusterfuck:
@Reichu: Nice point! It really fits both the artistic direction we see in the show and the lore we have. Thanks a lot for the clarification regarding the Japanese terms :)
@Derantor: AFAIK, yes. A lot of discussions regarding it went by in years past. The best example I can think of is Ritsuko's exposition on the Dummy Plug Plant, where she goes on how "man found a god" and "man created humans in that god's image". Summarizing the whole past conclusions: "man" = "Lilin", "human" = "Angel, Lilin, Eva, Seed or FAR".

---

Longinus:
Now we get to the hornet's nest... The Longinus is, BY FAR (pun intended), the most mysterious piece of the puzzle. Let's see what we know for sure regarding it:

- Was found impaling Adam, in the White Moon, buried in Antarctica;
- At some point, were sent to the Dead Sea (if it's the one in Galilee or if they're referring to the "dead seas" in the Antarctic's coast is unclear [side-note: When I was in school by the early 90's, "dead sea" used to refer to what we currently know as "hyper-saline lakes". I always assumed that's what they were referring to in the show, but thinking about it now, can't say for sure. Do you people have any thoughts?];
- Was shipped back to the White Moon to be used in the CE;
- When Adam woke up, the Longinus started to "sink in" it, right before 2I;
- Was hanging out in the Antarctic seabed since 2I until NERV went there to pick it up;
- Was put in Lilith's chest by Eva-00 at Gendo's direction;
- Was removed by Eva-00, with Lilith instantly growing legs and an inflated belly;
- Was thrown at Arael, piercing its AT-Field and killing it in one swift blow;
- Was known (at least by Gendo, Fuyu and Seele) to have ATF-piercing properties;
- Able to change its shape as-needed;
- Was an important (but not totally essential) part of Seele's scenario for 3I;
- Was a threat to Gendo's scenario, as he got rid of it at the first opportunity;
- End up stuck in the moon, and presumed unrecoverable by anyone;
- Was somehow "reproduced", with the copies being deployed with the MP-Evas;
- Seele was able to use the copies in their scenario for 3I, mitigating the need for the original one;
- Was able to "sense" the starting of 3I;
- Came back to Earth autonomously, against everyone's expectations;
- Merged with Eva-01 after Shinji's ego is "shattered" by the MP-Evas Anti-ATF;
- Together with Eva-01, formed what Fuyu refers to as the "Tree of Life";
- Was able to "exit" Eva-01 after Shinji rejected Instrumentality;
- Was "split" by Eva-01, and the split somehow destroyed the copies;
- Accompanied Yui to space after 3I;

If we pay attention to these facts, we're able to get some further details:

- Even though Seele, Gendo and Fuyu had knowledge of its properties (enough to account for it in their scenarios), none of them predicted that it would autonomously come back all the way from the Moon as soon as 3I started. It's unknown if Yui was aware of this possibility;
- Since Seele wasn't aware of this possibility, it's safe to say that it was not recorded in the SDSS;
- The MAGI had records for the ATF pattern developed by Eva-01 when it's fusing with the Longinus ("AT-Field changing to Pattern Red!"). Even though we don't have further explanation for what it means, the fact that there was a categorization for this "pattern" seems to indicate that it was previously (off-screen) detected. Since the other instance of the Longinus being used in somewhat similar way was the CE which led to 2I, I'm led to believe that was then;
- Fuyu recognizes and identifies the merged Eva-Longinus entity, indicating that he have SOME knowledge of the effect. Since he was surprised to see the Longinus coming back to participate in the 3I, it would be unlikely that it was part of the scenario Yui discussed with him. The possibilities I can think of are that the "Tree" was referred in the SDSS or some manifestation of it was recorded in the 2I;
- Fuyu also comments on how the Eva-01 became akin to god after having consumed Zeruel's S2, and the fusion with the Longinus reverted it to the "Tree of Life" form. According to him, it would evolve into something capable of both save or destroy mankind, at Shinji's discretion. Again, either he got this knowledge from the SDSS or from 2I;

Regarding the uniqueness of the Longinus:

- If there's more than one Longinus on Earth, it's not known to Seele, Gendo or Fuyu, since every single one of them treats it as a unique entity;
- If there was ever more than one Longinus at any point in time on the planet, we can assume that Seele doesn't know about it (not being presented on the SDSS) or consider it to be completely non-accessible to them, so much that they don't even discuss it;

Without using CI or manga info/lore, I don't think there's more we can treat as fact, but please correct me if I'm missing something.

---

Angels:
@Shun: we do have some cases of "things" being biologically alive while soulless on the show:
- Adam's sample/embryo;
- The Evas prior to a CE giving them their Souls;
- Rei's "extra bodies" in the Dummy Plant;

Also, there's the possibility of something being alive and active with only part of a Soul:
- Eva-00;
- Lilith;
- Ayanami Rei;
- Eva-02;
- Kyoko Zeppelin Soryu;
- Israfel;

And I'm not even counting the Longinus, which seems pretty alive to me, even though is never shown deploying an AT-Field or mentioned to have a Soul...

---

Thanks for the patience ^_^

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Re: Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans / Angel Rebirth

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Postby Reichu » Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:28 pm

@Shun: The comparison between Evas and Angels isn't wrong at all. The show invites us to compare them CONSTANTLY. Angels and Evas also have far more in common than Angels and Lilin do.

> Kokoro no katachi, hito no katachi
I agree 100% that this phrase DOES apply to Angels. But this is solely in the sense that their minds determine the shape they take. They mold their own bodies into a personalized form with their A.T. Field. This does not automatically mean "the second the soul is gone, the body loses its shape". Angels and Lilin clearly do not operate by identical rules (or else the anti-Angel war would be fought by psychics instead of Evas!). Not to mention, that this is even a rule for Lilin is a mere assumption. An oft-neglected technicality about Lilin turning into LCL is that it's only seen happening as a result of the ego barrier (= A.T. Field) being forcefully neutralized by a more powerful ego. And on that note: what happens to Angels when their A.T. Field is neutralized by another? They can't deploy their A.T. Field for protection, and that's... about it. :tongue:

There is a pretty clear pattern established throughout the show. Adam's body is able to hold its shape even though we're told the soul is solely within Kaworu. Lilith's body is soulless, or close to it; it continues to hold its shape. Angels' bodies continue to lay around, not so much as undergoing decomposition, after their cores -- the literal vessels for their souls -- are broken. The "artificial" argument is quite weak, since all life on Earth is artificial. And on account of the previous three instances, it has no explanatory power anyway. If you truly want "simple", you will try to account for everything that behaves similarly. So, let's keep going. Evas: their bodies have no trouble existing without souls. Evas can also resist Anti-A.T. Fields without any issue. The Rei clones -- don't need souls. Kaworu -- needed to have a soul salvaged into him, hence was born without one. His body survived Second Impact, hence is also Anti-A.T. Field-proof.

As far as explanations go for, the only one I've come across that holds up is that the gods and demigods (i.e., humans of greater-than-Lilin constitution) of NGE are composed of "stronger stuff" that is better able to passively hold together and better able to resist active dismantling. Episode 5 includes a bunch of gobbledygook about material composition for basically no reason other than to provide a way to handwave the unusual physical properties of Angels and adjacent beings.

EDIT: This is not to say that these beings cannot be, in a similar manner as Lilin and other beings with weak ATFs, incited into self-destruction, but it takes a different form. The Rei clones, Rei 3, and Lilith herself are all observed falling into pieces. For the Rei clones, this is specifically attributed to the release of "destrudo", which, oddly enough, is the same force mentioned when Shinji is about to lose his form (again...) in EoE. If there IS any kind of 'universal rule' as regards A.T. Fields and self-destruction, destrudo is probably the key. The self-destructive capabilities exhibited by Adamic lifeforms may well fit in here, as well.

> Lilith arrived on Earth[,] Adam and the Angels fell into a dormant state
You say this is a "simple explanation", but how does one result in the other? :???: There's "simple", and there's "not actually explaining anything"...
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Re: Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans / Angel Rebirth

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Postby Reichu » Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:12 pm

@GuiBiancarelli: Not an exhaustive response to the Spear stuff, but it's something, at least.

>Even if the Angel's Souls are not within Armisael, but hanging around or even in another place entirely (...)

The thought only occurred to me fairly recently, but Armisael's "Angel of the Womb" designation would resonate even more if it applied not merely to things the Angel does to Eva-00, but to some inherent property of the Angel itself. If Armisael arrived carrying all of dead Angels' souls within itself (via some means that is probably beyond mortal comprehension), then "Angel of the Womb" applies quite nicely.

>I still think that would make sense to treat physical "insemination" as a separate thing to "Soul savaging"

If I ever implied that I thought they were the same thing, I apologize for any confusion. :sweatdrop: I'm not 100% clear what "soul salvaging" is, but my impression is that it's some technological means (referring to Lilin tech only?) of transferring a soul into an unsouled body. Hence, its usage in the cases of the Evas and Kaworu. The so-called "insemination" is exactly what it sounds like -- souls being transferred from one body (or Guf) to another by a conscious being.

> Summarizing the whole past conclusions: "man" = "Lilin", "human" = "Angel, Lilin, Eva, Seed or FAR".

This refers only to a specific translation choice, however; it doesn't reflect upon the original Japanese terms in any way. Maybe you're not trying to imply that, but I just wanted to make sure.

> At some point, was sent to the Dead Sea and then shipped back

If one assumes there is only one Spear, then perhaps it is an unavoidable conclusion -- but what if it's NOT necessary to assume only one Spear exists within the show's timeline? I should point out here how slippery the Japanese language can be. The translations will say "the Spear of Longinus", as if there is only one, but the Japanese is simply "Longinus no yari" -- there is no article. There are ways to approximate such a thing, but this is only done on occasion, meaning Anno can have plenty of fun with ambiguity. In the episode 21' flashback, the line is simply "Longinus no yari wa?" ("Status of Spear of Longinus?"), so... there you go. :devil: Consider the context, and you have your reason why the researcher wouldn't need to specify which Spear if there were, indeed, two at the base. He's asking about the one for which there is actual NEWS, hence the other personnel would understand that it's not the one that's been at the base this whole time.

If this is a separate Spear from the one that Adam was impaled on, several advantages present themselves:

(A) No need for a convoluted explanation about why a gigantic, highly classified object was sent out of a specialized and securely hidden research facility in the White Moon, only to be sent right back. The trip was one-way.
(B) Provides an actual in-show justification for the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls' existence. (A spear was buried under Qumran; mystics made contact and were divinely inspired.)
(C) The absence of one of the Spears can be accounted for. (Merged into Adam and blew up along with her.)

>the Longinus, which seems pretty alive to me, even though is never shown deploying an AT-Field or mentioned to have a Soul...


WEEELL, about that...

SPOILER: Show
Image


The blur effect that develops around the Spear is characteristic of A.T. Fields. So, two possibilities:

(A) Eva-01 jetisoned her pylons and developed two additional wings in order to extend her A.T. Field far enough to grab the Spear on the Moon
(B) Eva-01 jetisoned her pylons and developed two additional wings in order to generate an A.T. Field big enough to get the Spear's attentions, and the Spear returned to Earth using its own A.T. Field.

(A) is overall simpler, but (B) might ultimately be able to account for more. The Spear actually roars (like an Eva!) in episode 22', meaning, uh... Well, the implications are pretty damned strange. @[email protected] I'm also not sure how to explain the Spear treating Eva-01 like a hostage (sharp object to the neck, and all that...) if Yui is not, in some sense, at the Spear's mercies here.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Re: Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans / Angel Rebirth

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Postby Derantor » Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:39 pm

@GuiBiancarelli: Ah, thank you. I try to read up on everything, but it is rather daunting. Reichu mentioned that this was only true to the translation, though?

- Was somehow "reproduced", with the copies being deployed with the MP-Evas;

To kick off the speculation, if we take indeed for granted that the spear is alive, the easiest method available would be cloning. I find it somewhat doubtful that humanity would be advanced enough to replicate a purely (or partially) mechanical object, since production methods alone would need to advance to an unreasonably high level unreasonably quickly, even if the underlying principles are understood. To give a real life example, it would take about one to three years to set up a facility to produce World War 2 era battleship armour - that includes training workers, as nobody is around who knows how to do it anymore. And that is a technique which is older than current time, so reverse engineering alien tech and being able to produce it en-masse seems out of the question. Cloning, meanwhile, has the spear construct itself and was demonstrated to work in-series.

@Reichu:
View Original PostReichu wrote:His body survived Second Impact, hence is also Anti-A.T. Field-proof.

It's also immune to physical shockwaves, low temperatures and drowning, apparently. *hides before black hole of contradictions opens up and swallows the thread* :ninja:

If Armisael arrived carrying all of dead Angels' souls within itself [...]

That would also explain how she seemingly learned a few things from her siblings, as that would allow her to directly contact their souls, while not giving her perfect (or near perfect knowledge) like time travel would. Edit: Angel souls generally staying close to the currently active angel in general would explain the learning effect for all the angels, and why Kaworu was surrounded by them.

The blur effect that develops around the Spear is characteristic of A.T. Fields.

When it pierces Araels AT-Field, it also emits something which looks like exhaust. Since I doubt that it carries an internal fuel supply or uses some of its own mass to propell itself forward, that seems to be another AT-Field effect. Of note is also that the replica spears do not show this effect when piercing Asuka's AT-field, but still move on their own. The only form of completely invisible propulsion is an AT field, as demonstrated by Kaworu when he levitates (and it must be some form of directed propulsion, as him just cancelling gravity would make him fly off slowly, which would need to be counteracted by another force, bringing us back to some form of propulsion).

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Re: Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans / Angel Rebirth

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Postby GuiBiancarelli » Sat May 02, 2020 12:39 pm

"Mankind" vs "Human":
It's indeed from the translation, but I used it to exemplify the concept. As @Reichu puts it, in Japanese the terms are different. I got this specific terms from the Netflix translation, since it was done by Daniel Kanemitsu from Studio Khara. Not trying to kick off any controversy here, but I'm assuming we can put an extra degree of attention in the words he chose to use, given his background in Japanese-English translations and his knowledge of the Eva-verse.

---

Longinus:
What have I said about hornet's nest?! Of course the spear screams... :facepalm:
I always though that the sound was from it breaking the sound-barrier or from the surface ionization due to the hypersonic speeds it got, but watching it again it is indeed that same scream from the Evas. I don't know what to say about it, really. :facepalm:
But anyway... In EoE, the Longinus starts to move BEFORE the AT-Field effect, and when it's getting near Earth the sensors on the Command Center detects it as a approaching object, not an AT-Field. The technicians don't mention an AT-Field nor there's any indication onscreen of some detection of one. Since we have plenty of evidence that they can detect almost any type of such fields (such as in Rei's using hers to go to Dogma on 24'), and the only mention of an AT-Field related to the Longinus is when it fuses with Eva-01 (and even then it's referred as the Eva's ATF changing, not another one being present), I strongly think that the Longinus was summoned by Yui using her ATF or it (somehow) moves without one.
About the "exhaust" when piercing Arael's ATF, it doesn't necessarily means that it's using internal propellant. If we look at its tip, we can see it is red hot and with a conical shockwave in front, indicating that it's still in the atmosphere and is able to use the surrounding air as propulsion (don't ask me "with what energy?" 'cause I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that the damn spear screams).
Regarding it's composition, the Longinus copies used by the MP-Evas are shown exploding in LCL, so if we assume that they were developed from the original one (as opposed to simply creating something similar in form and properties, but with an entirely unrelated origin), then it's indeed biological in nature. However, I must say that being biological in origin doesn't mean it's a sentient being akin to an Angel or Eva. As an example, organic polymers are biological in origin and may exhibit complex properties and functions, but are far from being "alive" in any sense. The same applies to proteins.
As the presence of another Longinus, I find it is... unlikely. The only continuities we see more than one Longinus present are NTE and ANIMA (and even ANIMA puts them as "lesser Spears"). Even though the CI are very problematic in some points, it's pretty straightforward regarding the Longinus being unique. As much as I think that @Reichu's reasoning is indeed strong, the lack of evidence mentioning more than one "original" Longinus in the show, plus the summing evidence against it on lower-canon sources, puts the possibility of it in a position hard to defend, from my point of view. I even think that would make more sense to posit that the thing impaling Adam on the picture depicting its excavation wasn't the Longinus and it was really found on Galilee.

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Re: Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans / Angel Rebirth

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Postby Derantor » Sat May 02, 2020 3:04 pm

@GuiBiancarelli: Ok, so there are two differenct concepts expressed by two different terms, which was my question. ^_^

However, I must say that being biological in origin doesn't mean it's a sentient being akin to an Angel or Eva.

And there would be precedent in the form of the Rei clones, which show a kind of half-sentient behaviour, but still lack souls, as far as I understand it. The spear being similar, sentient to some degree but without a soul, would explain the lack of an AT field. If they can not generate one, we must still explain their automotive capacity when fighting Asuka.

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Re: Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans / Angel Rebirth

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Postby GuiBiancarelli » Sat May 02, 2020 4:14 pm

If they can not generate one, we must still explain their automotive capacity when fighting Asuka.

@Derantor Perhaps it serves as an extension of the wielder's AF-Field, thus reacting/eroding the one from its target. :chinscratch:
That would fits my proposition for the analogy with the freudian phallus: it imposes the law of the owner to others. It also fits @Reichu's insemination theory (phallus = organ used for insemination).
If that's the case, and if it was indeed found on Galilee and the CE was the first time it was "penetrating" Adam, then we have a explanation of why he woke up and begun 2I (that would also make the CE a lot rapey :cringe: ). And since Gendo knew Lilith's Soul was absent from her body, sticking the Longinus to her crucified bodied wouldn't trigger anything and could serve as a facade to let Seele happy and thinking their agenda was progressing. He would still have time to find a way to get rid of it before joining Lilith's body and Soul.

Hmmmm...... Interesting! :emogendo:

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Re: Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans / Angel Rebirth

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Postby Reichu » Sat May 02, 2020 5:06 pm

@GuiBiancarelli: The Classified Information doesn't say the Spear is "unique". It says that the Spears come paired with Seeds -- ergo, there had once been two of them. Where things go wrong are the contrived non-explanation it provides for the fate of the second spear (but this is also security level 3 rather than 4, and so not Absolute); and its claims about which spear belongs to whom are also suspect (in that said claims ultimately rely upon concepts where the show provides little corroboration -- so much hand-waving is needed that an alternate explanation would be preferable -- and Eva2 is blatantly inconsistent with itself). Furthermore, if you are okay with downplaying, on the basis on the Classified Information, the in-show observations I provided, then I should let you know: the Classified Information bluntly states that Adam was found impaled on a Spear (the Dead Sea is not mentioned anywhere in association with the Spears). :devil:

If the memory is rusty, it may be worth looking them over again. I do the usual "the Spear of Longinus" thing in the translation because it would probably sound super-awkward othewise, but remember: SLIPPERY Japanese.

For me personally, "Adam's Spear was shipped in from the Dead Sea to assist with the transgenic experiment, and blew up with Adam in Second Impact" has so much explanatory power that going back to the "default" alternative is unthinkable. :emogendo: And that said, everyone must find their own path within the labyrinth that is Evangelion. My solutions are provided merely in the event that anyone else might find a use for them. :tongue:

Speaking of, the thoughts that have occurred to me regarding Spears that roar like Evas and which may or may not have A.T. Fields are so completely insane that I will keep them fully contained to fanfic for now.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Re: Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans / Angel Rebirth

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Postby Derantor » Sat May 02, 2020 8:42 pm

View Original PostGuiBiancarelli wrote:@Derantor Perhaps it serves as an extension of the wielder's AF-Field, thus reacting/eroding the one from its target. :chinscratch:

Hm, I am not sure I like this idea. It would imply that Rei can extend the AT-field of Unit 00 to at least the upper athmosphere (true, she extends her AT-Field to a much larger degree later, but I think we can assume that GNR and Rei II have different capabilities). The control & movement part is not so serious in my eyes, but if the eroding qualities of the spear are tied to the AT-Field of the wielder, it's strength should also reduce with distance - but I am not sure that it behaves like a normal field at all (see spoiler below). The only other option I see is some form of remote control where distance doesn't matter at all.

Behaviour of AT-Fields  SPOILER: Show
From memory, the evidence in the show is also consistent with a field that reaches it's maximum strength at the boundary - people getting tanged in sequence, starting from the origin of the field, can either be an effect of increasing the strength of the field over time, making it reach further, or the boundary itself expanding. The visuals in the fights also show a clear boundary (which can be ripped and torn), for example in the fight with Sachiel, but that could be an artifact of two AT-fields clashing, with the seemingly solid surface just being the point where both AT-Fields reach the same strength.

I am not sure I want to get into trying to explain the ripping and cutting effect, though. A highly localized disturbance in the boundary between two fields, which is a representation of the imagination of the person causing the disturbance? Asuka slices the field with her knife -> She subconciously imagines a knife cutting something -> her AT-Field deforms the boundary in a way that is consistent with a visual representation of "cutting something". Given that AT-Fields are apparently controlled by thought, this is about the only way I can see to make any sense of that, the other being that an AT-Field strong or well defined enough actually manifests physically. It can shape a body, so why can't it create a membrane out of thin air?

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Re: Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans / Angel Rebirth

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Postby Shun » Wed May 06, 2020 7:52 am

Reichu wrote:> Kokoro no katachi, hito no katachi
This does not automatically mean "the second the soul is gone, the body loses its shape"


Yep, but I didn't write this. Either you misinterpreted, or I didn't explain myself well.

Shun wrote:"But without the soul, how did the body exist? Without A.T. Field, and therefore without a soul, the body cannot support itself and take a shape. Kokoro no katachi, hito no katachi."


Here I don't mean that without a soul that generates the AT. Field the body ceases to exist (death model). I mean that a body is born (begins to exist) in a natural (not artificial) way only when there is a soul that assigns it an initial shape thanks to the A.T. Field (birth model).
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Re: Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans / Angel Rebirth

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Postby Derantor » Fri May 08, 2020 9:30 am

@Shun: Ough, I have a hard time squaring that with normal conception. So, sperm and egg are seperate - no new being, no soul. Sperm hits egg -> New being, new soul, but where does the "shaping" come in? So far, we are only dealing with DNA doing it's thing, producing living things to replicate itself. I can see a soul growing alongside that, with the "shaping" being metaphorical in nature and reciprocal, meaning the body is shaping the sould just as well as the other way around. The only time souls actually shape bodies is in case of the angels* or when people return form the sea of LCL, which are both pretty rare cases and not at all related to normal organic life, as both times, the soul is given explicit control.

*How "natural" their birth is is not really clear to me. They seem more like deliberate creations than the product of natural evolution (they all have cores, for once - and those hardly seem like organic structures, but more like crystalline, artificial carriers for the resident soul, and are used in exactly that way to control the Evas).

But I must admit that the whole "soul" buisiness is a book with seven seals to me, as is the "soul shapes the body" thing (outside of special circumstances). A dog doesn't recognize itself in the mirror (well, there are borderline cases). It can therefore not form a self-image, as it has no concept of "self". It isn't even clear if it is "conscious" the way humans are. But "All living things have the heart to return" pretty clearly expresses that every living "thing" has a heart/soul, and that makes no sense at all, since a bacterium or a tree must then have a soul as well. But if a dog can not form a self image reliably, a tree can not do it at all, and a bacterium much less, so no return for them, yet we clearly see trees before Rei crashes. A soul being assigned at the point of conception to give "birth" to a new body also implies that an unborn baby must return of its own volition - that's an aweful lot of involuntary abortions and dead fetuses lying around the shores of Japan post Third Impact. So I'd rather think that in natural reproduction, a soul grows alongside the body until it reaches consciousness, at which point it truly becomes a soul.

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Re: Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans / Angel Rebirth

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Postby Reichu » Fri May 08, 2020 11:09 am

"Soul has to be generating self-image in order for body to exist" not only makes a complete mess out of reproduction, it also makes abiogenesis -- the implied origins of Lilithic life -- outright impossible.

View Original PostDerantor wrote:(they all have cores, for once - and those hardly seem like organic structures, but more like crystalline, artificial carriers for the resident soul, and are used in exactly that way to control the Evas).

Crystalline life is a sci-fi staple, and cores aren't lifeless or anything -- they're integrated into the body and can transform under the right circumstances. There is, of course, no evidence for this whatsoever, but I fancy the idea that cores are the result of an endosymbiotic event in the distant evolutionary past of the First Ancestral Race. The structure was passed along, accordingly, to the gods that they created in their image. Angels, being presumably created much more directly from Adam than Lilin are created from Lilith, would probably have an inherent human form resembling their mother's, and the core is the feature they all generally hold onto when they transform. Lilith seems to have altered her form in some way, such that -- similar to some Angels -- there is no (obvious) core, but Eva-01 is obviously a standard "big FAR" entity.

(There is, of course, the whole question of "why do they apparently need to install cores into Evas if they possess them innately?" I offer a possible solution back in this ancient thread (CTRL-F "Back to the core problem"). Well, part of a solution. Currently I lean toward "they start with baby cores, and these don't develop properly unless a soul is present; mature cores are grown separately through god-knows-what-methodology, and are implanted surgically when the Eva is ready for ensoulment". As for why they wouldn't simply force the body's "baby core" into artificial development, I'm unclear; but only adding a gigantic sphere to the chest AFTER the Eva is otherwise complete seems pretty silly and inefficient no matter what... But anyway, this probably all seems like quite the unnecessary mess, and it might be, but the less I have to wonder about how Angels got their cores, the happier I'll be.)
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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