Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans / Angel Rebirth

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Re: Kaworu and SEELE (Episode 24' Plot Hole Solved?)

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Postby Derantor » Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:27 pm

I'll have to sleep over this, so only a short thought on all this.

I am still not convinced that Gendo wants to become Adam, or transplant his soul into the embryo. Shortly before Rei takes his hand, he says "It appears to have begun. Now, Rei, it's time to reunite me with Yui once more." Before he said "Yadda yadda yadda, forbidden fusion, blah blah, abandon this physical form, merge all into one, and then take me to Yuis side." There is a clear temporal progression to what he says to Rei in the first part, with "take me to Yui" coming last. So, since now the time is right, his plan apparently already has advanced to that point. He then tries to pull out his hand, but Rei grabs him and doesn't let him go. This, combined with the fact that everything he said was an order to Rei, makes me think that he doesn't intend to do anything himself. If he wanted to impart his soul into the embryo, why would he try to pull his hand out? Seele also accuses him of wanting to create a god - not become one. Unless they are wrong again, this also supports the theory that Gendo intends to stay himself, giving orders instead of taking action.

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Re: Kaworu and SEELE (Episode 24' Plot Hole Solved?)

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Postby Reichu » Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:16 pm

In the lake monolith scene, using one of the two possible readings, wherein Seele are the ones speaking: Kiel says at the outset that there is a man who seeks power equal to a god's. The "equal to a god" language is pretty typical for Eva (same word, rashiki, is used in EoE when Eva-01 is said to have an existence equal to a god's). The man is question is obviously Gendo. That Gendo's fusion with Adam later comes up in the conversation is probably not insignificant.

"Couldn't this power just be Eva-01?", one might ask. Yui is a god, yes, but as we see in EoE, he doesn't have any control over her. Her power is hers, not his. From Seele's point of view, as well, they might have whined earlier about Eva-01's apotheosis, but by this point in the timeline, the Spear is out of the picture and they know they will be using Eva-01 for their own purposes. Combined with the mention of Gendo's fusion with Adam, it makes sense that Seele are saying that Gendo intends to secure divine power through a non-Eva route.

If Gendo does not actually become a god himself, I don't see how he would gain a god's power. Lilin are very weak, frail creatures. Some sort of transformation is required. I mentioned previously the significance of Gendo placing the embryo on his palm. In NGE, the palms function as spiritual gateways (see: Gates of Guf on the Seeds); i.e., the embryo is there because Gendo plans to leave his body that way.

More to the point, look at the very first things that Gendo says in 26':

GENDO:
Adam and I are now as one...
For this is the only way to be with Yui again.
The forbidden fusion of Adam and Lilith.


Meaning: the forbidden fusion of Adam and Lilith is how he'll be reunited with Yui; for this reason he has merged himself with Adam; thus Gendo himself will be part of that very fusion and will be brought into Lilith by Rei. (This gets fairly ridiculous if he isn't sucked into the embryo first.)

Trying to use Gendo's instructions to Rei as some kind of absolute guide is foolhardy, IMO. They are complete nonsense that would not accomplish anything if interpreted literally, under the assumption that Rei has no preexisting knowledge of what she's supposed to do. The lines function as hints to us, but they're only one part of a much larger picture. (See for example that final Gendo/Seele meeting I will persist in aggressively pointing at... ;) )

I double-checked the script, and Gendo isn't trying to pull his arm out. Rei is actually tightening her abdomen around him. The reason it looks for a moment like he's "pulling out" is because Rei's navel goes full vagina there. First it tightens near the opening, pushing the arm out very slightly, and then the progressively deeper muscles tighten, pulling the arm snugly inside. A Kegel exercise, basically. :sly:
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Re: Kaworu and SEELE (Episode 24' Plot Hole Solved?)

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Postby Alienlifeform » Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:11 pm

Wait so if Shinji in one universe wanted to be a god. Would rei-kaworu-yui say "okay sure heres what you gotta do".or would they just say no?this could make a interesting fanfic. Edit: actually nevermind Shinji's more of a messiah figure anyway.
They could make him their messiah instead? That would make more sense i think.

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Re: Kaworu and SEELE (Episode 24' Plot Hole Solved?)

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Postby Reichu » Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:21 am

Welp, I celebrated prematurely. I wasn't paying enough attention. This line screws everything up.

KEEL:
However, [Adam's] resurrected body already exists within Ikari.


I double-checked the Japanese, and it does indeed say "exists within" (naka ni aru). I don't see any way of getting around this line. If they had said something vague like "is with Ikari", then sure, that would work, but "exists within" doesn't leave anything to the imagination. (The phrasing probably seems a little odd in English because Adam isn't INSIDE-inside Gendo, but being in the palm of Gendo's hand satisfies the requirements of the original language.)

So, Kaworu is explicitly told that Adam is something that would fit "inside" Gendo, and, regardless, he goes down to Terminal Dogma and keeps talking about "Adam" while looking straight at a giant that is very obviously not inside anybody. Naturally, this puts us right back where we started, with Kaworu being some kind of dumbfuck who has a stunning revelation about something he had already been told. :facepalm: (Even going with the "he's putting on a show for Rei" idea, there are still annoying details to account for, like his eyes being shown distinctly right when he says "I understand", not to mention everything involving Lilith's belly.)

Super frustrating. :nono: It was fun while it lasted. Glad I caught the mistake quickly, at least.
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Re: Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans

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Postby Rei IV » Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:36 am

All of this could be probably resolved if someone simply asked Hideako Anno what was going on in Terminal Dogma in episode '24 (among other things as well). Assuming he would answer and give us a clear cut answer. I guess this always be a question for the ages. :nyao:

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Re: Kaworu and SEELE (Episode 24' Plot Hole Solved?)

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Postby Derantor » Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:06 am

@Alienlifeform: Even better, that's not a possibility, that's a certainty. :emogendo: Keep in mind though that that is only my not very well thought out theory to explain away any inconsistency by throwing infinities at the problem.

@Reichu: Well, what exactly is meant by "inside" in the original Japanese context, then? Something like "part of" or "combined with", "contained in his being"? I've got a feeling that there might be a way around this obstacle as well, but that requires pinning down exactly what Kaworu can "feel" at a distance (Gender, type of matter (angelic/normal), type of soul (Lilith/Lilin or more generally, Seed/Offspring) or if there even is a distinction between body and soul) and THAT's a total mind-bender to figure out as well.

If "inside" means something like "combined with", Kaworu might feel Lilith's soul and mistakes it for Gendo's (as far as I can tell, he can not tell who somebody is at a distance), then mistakes the angelic matter composing Lilith's body for the body of Adam SEELE talked about, until he takes a closer look and is bamboozled by the fact that he is staring at Lilith, body and soul, when he already knows what Lilith looks like: He has met Rei already and found Lilith that way, so he doesn't expect another Lilith in Terminal Dogma. Now that I think about it, maybe that last part was what confused him all along.

Edit 3: "Resurrected body" might also be important. The embryo is just that, an embryo, while the angelic-matter-body in terminal dogma truly is a ressurected SEED-body, only the wrong kind. So Kaworu feels some Lilin running around with a sample of Angel-body, but it's so little that he thinks that SEELE meant that huge thing in Terminal Dogma instead.


As for Gendo, I'll try to hopefully make sense of that in a new thread I'm working on, as it requires ... a bit of an alternative interpretation, but to adress the final conversation between Gendo and SEELE quickly:
More confusing things  SPOILER: Show
Kiel: The time is at hand. Without the Lance of Longinus, we cannot use Lilith to complete the Project. Our only hope is to use Lilith's only true offspring, Eva Unit 01.
Gendo: That was not part of SEELE's original plan.

Obviously, this is mostly exposition for the audience's benefit. Why should Gendo point out to SEELE that was not part of their plan, when all involved already know that, as Kiel basically already said that they altered the plan, and especially if he threw the spear away so that SEELE had to use Unit 01 instead? If this isn't just repeating what Kiel said so that the audience gets it, my guess is that this truly is news to him: Using Unit-01 as a spare would obviously be part of the plan from the beginning, so somehow Gendo was either oblivious to that fact or doesn't want SEELE to actually go there. That's because he needs Yui to be part of Instrumentality, not as the vessel or medium for it - otherwise, he can't get her back.
Fuyutsuki: Creating the Evangelion was the pinnacle of mankinds existence.
Gendo: Humanity must evolve and shape this brave new world. That was why we created the Eva Series.

"We created the Eva Series (all of them or just the MP Evas?) so that humanity can evolve (=survive) and shape this brave new world (= the world brought on by the creation of the Evas)".
SEELE: We need not cast aside our human form to use Evangelion as our own private Ark. It's merely part of the process to free us all for rebirth. The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth. Through the sacrament of death, God, and humanity, all living beings will be united and reborn as one.
Gendo: Death creates nothing.
Kiel: You deserve death.

Fuyutsuki says something similar: "Will [Eva 01] be the ark to save us from the vacuum of third impact?" Seele does not want the ark; they want Third Impact to play out and humanity to disappear. Gendo meanwhile thinks death creates nothing, as he doesn't believe in rebirth. "I am who I am" is not only Shinji, but also Gendo.
Fuyutsuki: Mankind exists because it has the will to live. That is the will of she who chose to remain in the Eva.

And thus Gendo's will. Humanity must survive, so no merger into an ultimate being could ever be acceptable for Gendo.

As to HOW this all plays out in detail ... I am not that far yet. ^_^ Basically, the forbidden fusion of Adam and Lilith already took place when he put his hand into Rei. Rei is then supposed to act like a Lance of Longinus and start Instrumentality with Lilith as the medium. She will join everbody (including Yui) into one being - this is only necessary because he sees no other way to get her out of the core of Eva 01 - and then manifest them as seperate human entities in the real world again.

Edit: To square this with pregnant Lilith theory: The Impact that actually happened had Yui plus the MP-Evas as the medium, while Yui contained both FoL and FoK, with Rei as the Controller, also containing FoL and FoK. That's why Gendo impregnates Lilith; to get the same conditions. That's why he's so shocked when Rei makes her move to rejoin Lilith, as he needs them separate.


Edit:
A Kegel exercise, basically. :sly:

:shifty: I take it the script just mentions nothing about him pulling out, right? Jeez, and another sexual reference by accident ...

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Re: Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans

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Postby Reichu » Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:54 am

Regarding "naka ni aru" (lit. "to be inside" or "to exist within"), I went so far as to go through Eijiro's considerable number of contextual examples. I see no "loophole" to take advantage of. 中 (naka) just isn't something that can be magicked into a more vague and convenient meaning. Unless somebody with greater Japanese fluency can confirm that there's wiggle room after all... I personally see no point in persisting. A killing blow is a killing blow. I won't stop others from trying to make it work -- the ideas are out there; they belong to everyone now -- but I've been demoralized right back to my usual "episode 24' is complete nonsense that will never reward audience effect, and you're better off using your time in more productive ways" policy.

The EoE subtitles you're using are... :cringe: not good. Any attempt to make sense of Eva with a translation that gets so much wrong is doomed from the start. (For example, Gendo's first line is not a commentary upon what Kiel said; it's his attempt to steer the conversation toward the "Ark" plan. Gendo does not say "evolve and shape this brave new world"; he very plainly says "advance to a new world", which is phrased in a deliberately ambiguous way to force the audience to think about whether he's being figurative or literal. And so on.)
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Re: Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans

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Postby Derantor » Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:40 pm

Reichu wrote:A killing blow is a killing blow.

Oh well, guess that's that then. And I guess the excuse that Kiel is saying something while meaning something completely different won't work either, and if it's not Kiel speaking but the ghosts of the angels, or Kaworu talking to himself, that just makes it worse.

Reichu wrote:Any attempt to make sense of Eva with a translation that gets so much wrong is doomed from the start.

Whelp, that's why I had already resolved to not theory-craft at all, since I don't speak Japanese, and any translation is somewhat faulty. That I had to stick to the one which gets things so wrong is just my luck, though. Missing the forest for the trees, and doing work at all the wrong places. :rolleyes:

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Re: Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans

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Postby GuiBiancarelli » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:16 am

Hey folks! Hope you people are safe in this whole pandemic mess we're in... Let's get down the rabbit hole: I think we can make sense of Gendo's actions if we analyze his plans for 3I.

- If we recall Fuyutsuki's flashback, Gendo was the one that proposed the HIP to Seele, and I think that means a lot: It indicates that prior to that, Seele was working without a structured agenda, perhaps even making their plans on-the-fly. They wanted to get rid of the Angels and cause 3I, but the actual steps and sprints they took on the show were initially proposed by Gendo;
- But why would he do that? Because he wanted to manipulate them and, eventually, hijack the outcome. If he could convince the old men to adhere to an agenda that seemly followed their interests, he would have knowledge of their steps in advance - a precious advantage in dealing with the almighty Seele;
- By this point, Gendo realized what Yui had already accepted: 3I was inevitable (Thanos' vibes here). Seele was already too powerful, connected and driven to be destroyed. Their only chance was to try and outsmart them in the long run, inserting themselves in key positions for the final outcome. Fuyutsuki got onboard, Yui locked herself on Eva-01 and Gendo ultimately presented a "rigged" plan to the Committee.

That being said, we can get a notion of the scenarios unfolding in EoE:
- Seele's 1st option was to use the MP-Evas to start 3I, and Lilith as the medium to unify the souls (we can get this notion analyzing Fuyutsuki's remarks on EoE). Their 2nd option was to use Eva-01 as the medium in her place. Knowing that the HIP was outlined to them by Gendo, we can see there his first manipulation: presenting a primary plan and a backup, but rigging the backup (Yui was already inside 01) and taking Lilith out of the board (salvaging her soul inside Rei and getting rid of the Spear of Longinus);
- Here we can see an apparent contradiction in Gendo's plan: if his desire was to be reunited with Yui, why put Eva-01 as a target for Seele's scenario? I think the answer is simple: misdirection! He never intended to let Seele use Eva-01 as the medium for 3I. Knowing that he couldn't get in the robot (insert comedy drums here), he prepared a backdoor: he would use Lilith herself. An OG Seed of Life would have more than enough power to take control of the 3I, taking the wheel right out of Seele's hands (in this case, the MP-Evas and 01);
- However, simply removing Seele's tools wasn't enough. As long as Shinji was inside Eva-01, the boy would be the "driver" for 3I (according to Kiel, and as Yui wished), so Gendo would have to find a way to "active" and "get inside" Lilith to be the "driver" and guarantee that his scenario would play out. Doing that in the last possible moment would be imperative - to try and take Seele by surprise and absorb/reunite with Yui/01;
- But how could he, a mortal man, accomplish that? According to him and Seele, with the "Forbidden Fusion" of Adam and Lilith. We see him fusing the Adam's sample with his hand and taking it to some part of Rei's interior (probably her uterus), presumably presenting Lilith the FoL in hopes of merging with her and take control of the 3I. If Rei hadn't rejected him in the last moment, we can infer that (according to the logic presented in EoE and, to some extent, his scenario in NGE2) he was going to succeed in become the "driver" for 3I, completely overcoming Shinji and Eva-01;

The question here is: why would he need to use the "Forbidden Fusion"? I think that the answer would be that he needed power both to "active" (or resurrect) Lilith, and resist the Anti-AT Field deployed on 3I:
- Lilith's body seemed pretty dead by the time. Even with her soul inside her, Gehirn was able to use and abuse of her body to create Eva-01, and without her soul the most meaningful action she took in the entire show was to grow legs. Presumably, Seeds of Life (or at least, the ones without the FoL) were "single use only". If this is indeed the case, Gendo might have needed the Adam's sample to give Lilith the FoL and thus "activate" her;
- We see that Shinji's ego was "fragmented" by the MP-Evas, so it's possible that Yui's will was the factor that allowed the boy to decide the Impact's outcome. One can assume that she was able to do that simply because Eva-01 absorbed Zeruel's S2 organ and became a "false god". If Gendo planned to have some sort of control inside Lilith, he would need that too - hence the fusion with the embryo. Rei taking it from him gave her this power and, as Yui, she chose to let Shinji decide the next steps. Presumably, Gendo would have been able to assert control if the girl hadn't cut him off;

I think that these conclusions mostly (if not entirely) agree with @Reichu's, but let me know if there's any point I'm missing! ^_^

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Re: Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans

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Postby GuiBiancarelli » Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:31 am

Continuing the discussion, now regarding this post https://forum.evageeks.org/thread/20093/Kaworu-and-SEELE-Gendos-Plans/#p893675 by @Reichu:

- Oh, the self-propelled clusterfuck scene at the lake... What to say about it? I don't think we'll ever have a satisfactory explanation for that, but anyway... @Reichu's conclusion of the monolith's representing the Angel's souls is a nice point, I always assumed that the monoliths were in Kaworu's head and he was simply reminiscing about some previous dialogue with Seele, the scene presenting itself as a sort of internal monologue - a subversion of the old theme on the "character remembering his mission prior to the final showdown";
- The "penetration" of Eva-01 by the Longinus is something that I disagree with @Reichu's conclusion. I don't think that the purpose of the action is to "inseminate" the Eva, but simply to mark it as the chosen medium for 3I - on the recordings of the Katsuragi CE, one of the scientists talks about the "DNA fusing with Adam" and "the Spear starting to sink". It's a very strange choice of words, but it matches what we see on EoE: the wording "fusion" is also used on Armisael's contact with Rei, referring to the same visual effect the Eva-01 presents as the Longinus "sinks" in its core (the strange "veins" propagating from the point of contact). I don't know exactly what the Longinus "sinking" in a Seed of Life might mean in "Impact Dynamics", but since it's something that happened at 2I and twice in 3I (on Eva-01 core and, after that, in Lilith's vaginal-forehead-eye-thing), it seems an expected behavior and not something particular to the occasion (Angel's souls insertion/impregnation). Since the main "motor" for the Impact seems to be the entity "having" the Longinus, I'm led to assume that it represents a freudian phallus, giving the owner the "control of the law" (god, I hate psychoanalysis...);
- Worth of note is that GNR opens its Doors to Guf only after the Longinus/Eva "fusion" and, if we analyze the 2I's recordings, Adam seemed to have followed the same order (DNA fusing, Longinus sinking, Guf opening);
- Does that correlates with the MP-Evas stigmatizing Eva-01 at the start of 3I? Can't say, but some relation might be present;

Let's hope Yui doesn't fuck everything up on Mars or whatever planet she decides to take residence. :tongue:

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Re: Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans

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Postby Reichu » Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:40 pm

I'm fairly certain Eva-01 was "marked as the chosen medium" far earlier in the ceremony, when she was given the stigmata. These are probably meant to be 'forced" Gates of Guf; their significance to Eva-01 being the receptacle for HIP is fairly straightforward.

It's funny you mention Armisael... since what is Armisael probably doing to Eva-00 in that scene? Infusing her with the souls of the Angels. :wink:

The "inseminated by Angel souls" angle is something that slotted into place for me after these initial speculations, which established a definite pattern:

(1) Armisael's attempt to resurrect the Angels.
(2) Kaworu talking to the Angel ghosts at the lake.
(3) The significance of the people missing from the photo (= they are leaving Earth, Kaworu among them).

This suggested to me that the ultimate fate of the Angels was baked into the story through visually implied means.

There's a lot of stuff going on in the "Tree of Life" scene. A full analysis post would be better but for now I'll just leave you with an outline for the overall argument.

(1) Adam appears as Kaworu. This is the only time Adam ever manifests from Lilith.
(2) Kaworu sweeps his hands forward in Eva-01's direction.
(2a) This visually parallels the shot of Adam's hands filling up the screen from 21'/DEATH.
(2b) Hands are significant in an Impact context because they're where the Gates of Guf open.
(2c) Shortly before Adam's hands appear in the 21' flashback, the team anticipates that the Gates of Guf will be opening.
(3) A black orb appears inside Eva-01's core. (This has never been seen prior to this scene, and will never be seen again.)
(3a) There was a black void inside Adam's core at Second Impact.
(3b) Visual Parallel: the Black Moon is a gateway to Guf Space / LCL Sea.
(3c) Visual Parallel: Leliel's body and shadow, which are respectively the entrance and exit to the Angel's Dirac Sea, which itself connects to "another universe" (the LCL Sea).
(4) A symbolic act of sexual intercourse occurs between Eva-01 and the Spear, which produces something that Fuyutsuki calls "the embryo of lives".
(4a) Mysteriously, Fuyutsuki implies that Eva-01 is being "returned" or "restored" to a prior state. Since when was Eva-01 a giant tree?
(4b) "Embryo of Lives" (inochi no taiga) is suspiciously similar to the phrase "Seed of Life" (seimei no tane). The latter of course doesn't occur in the movie, but it inspires the possibility that "Embryo of Lives" is meant to be correlated with the phrase "Source of LIfe" (seimei no minamoto), used to refer to Adam and Lilith. An embryo (taiga) is the "source" (minomoto) of the being it develops into; living things (seimei) all have individual lives (inochi).
(4c) This is to say that Eva-01 has been returned to a prior state in the sense that she is finally satisfying her true potential as a daughter of Lilith.
(5) This scene and the one that immediately follows it are full of maternal references.
(5a) Sandbox scene and beyond are obvious enough.
(5b) Kaworu is cross-referenced in this scene with maternal figures three times: the scene strongly parallels Asuka's reunion with Kyoko; his only line is a phrase associated with Yui; and when this line is spoken, the camera fixates on the clean side of the Katsuragi cross (in the following scene, the bloodied side of the cross is accompanied by voiceover from Misato saying that she failed as a mother; lots to unpack from this "clean side" / "bloody side" comparison and not enough space here to do it).
(6) Eva-01's A.T. Field lowers when Kaworu's hands "embrace" her, right before the "sex" happens. Dropping one's A.T. Field is associated with letting others in and loss of self.

(I haven't figured out the precise role of the "solenoid graph" and the ATF shift to red.)

Now, obviously not every point here has equal weight; I'm mostly just attempting to outline the whole thought process that goes into this. I think that this scene, like many others in Eva, makes the most scene if it's being used to convey multiple ideas at once. Yes, on one level, we have the weird stuff going on between Kaworu and Shinji. But on another level, there is an interaction between Adam and Eva-01, with the Spear of Longinus playing the role of intermediary. Watching the scene in question, there is pretty clear correlation between Adam's actions and the Spear's actions. Which is to say that the "sex" that commences is not simply happening between Eva-01 and the Spear here; Adam and Eva-01 are having "intercourse" through the Spear.

What even...?!? Why? How? Because the souls of the Angels are being transferred. The dark sphere inside Eva-01's core is her Chamber of Guf manifesting, and the Spear, which interfaces with this directly, provides the means of transfer. (Core = vagina+uterus; Chamber = ovum; Spear = penis; Angel souls = spermatozoa.) Why not simply use the Gates of Guf for this purpose instead? We hear about Adam's Gates opening at Second Impact, when they released the Angels'; and we see Lilith's Gates opening at Third Impact to receive humanity. In both of these instances, the Gateways are being used by souls already associated with that particular Chamber. Eva-01 has never carried the Angels before, nor can she claim a hereditary association via Lilith, so perhaps they need to be "converted", as it were. Metaphysically transformed in some way.

This brings us to the Tree of Life. In this particular context, it resonates incredibly well with the Tree of Souls -- which, in Jewish lore, populated the Chamber of Guf. Do Seeds need to transform into the Tree to populate their Chambers with souls that have never been there before? This would explain the implied attempt by Adam to form one at Second Impact: she intended to collect the souls of the Lilin into herself for rebirth. This further ties into what Armisael was doing. Armisael's form -- a double helix with incredible A.T. Field-piercing abilities -- seems "inspired by"* the Spear of Longinus, and she may have been able to replicate, however crudely, some of its metaphysical functions. Note that in addition to Armisael's root-like fusion, both of Eva-00's palms were adhered to the Angel's body.

( * Arael being killed by the Spear and Armisael, the very next one, having Spear-like properties is quite suspicious, but is readily explained with the idea that the Angels' souls linger after death: the dead share their knowledge and experiences with the living.)

Lilith absorbs the Tree of Life, bringing Eva-01's transformed state in contact with souls that Lilith has already collected. If the Tree is a means by which a Seed's Guf is populated, then Lilith absorbs the Tree not for herself (as it were), but to infuse Eva-01. Also of note here is that Lilith splits humanity's souls into three streams when she collects them. Two of these enter the Gates (and hence her body, same as Eva-01 later does), and the other stream enters the Black Moon. This initial division seems to be no obstacle to all souls being unified for HIP, but physical and spiritual space probably operate upon different rules. Eva-01 entered Lilith's body, and she emerges from same. The souls that entered the Black Moon similarly are released from it. But... what about all of the souls that entered Lilith's body? When Lilith breaks apart, we see a small handful of souls exit, but that's nowhere close to how many went into her Gates in the first place. So where could they have gone?

Where indeed? :eva01_gwar:

P.S. The "DNA fusing with Adam" happens some minutes before the Spear "sinks". The experiment with Adam involved a person simply called the "donor", and the "contact" that took place is implied to be the cause of 2I. The donor was a trigger, in other words. The donor would also be the source of the DNA in question -- or else why call them that ;) -- and when this DNA dives and fuses, Kaworu is probably the result. My own suspicion is that creating Kaworu was the experiment's "ostensible" purpose, and the (alternatively, a) Spear was somehow used to achieve this; the set-up for the conception resulted in spiritual contact between the donor and Adam, setting off the Impact; and Adam shortly thereafter attempts to merge with the Spear and form a Tree of Life. This can all be explained through the conceit that the Spears, as the "male" counterparts to the Seeds, are able to "inseminate" Seeds on both a physical and spiritual level, in the same way that Seeds can "get pregnant" on both a physical (generate offspring) and spiritual (contain souls within Guf) level.
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Re: Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans

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Postby Derantor » Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:21 pm

@Reichu: Could it be that the Tree of Souls is not related to the transfer of souls at all? Assuming that Anno read information on the Tree of Souls similar to that presented in the thread you linked, wouldn't it be easiest to assume that the Tree of Souls forms to take in the Lilin souls? The Anti-AT-Field already implies reversal, so instead of souls dropping from the tree, they remerge with it. The soul transfer happens when the LoL pierces Yui's core, placing the angel souls in her chamber of Guf directly. This "transformation of souls" you describe makes me wonder how angels could stay angels, if that was required to load them into Yui's chamber of Guf (basically, making them indistinguishable from humans, which would defeat the purpose).

Adams reason for trying to form a tree of life at Second Impact would then be to use the tree for it's original purpose: Populate the world with souls. He only partially succeeds (or some were released when his spear broke, as that was apparently destroyed), that's why there are only 16 angels besides him (or there where many more, which is another way to explain the huge number of souls Lilith places into Yui in EoE).

Which brings me to another thing bugging me: If Kaworu was born at Second Impact (and every indication is that he was) - how was his body saved? If I remember correctly, Adam's soul was only later salvaged into him, and even if not, Misato was apparently the only one who survived, thanks to being in that capsule - although I do wonder how she could escape the Anti-AT-Field that way. Was there even one formed at Second Impact? I am getting confused ...

Regarding Yui's/Adam's/Lilith's plan: So, Adam offloads the angel souls into Lilith, while Yui takes part of humanity (or generally "living things"?) with her? That gives a different context to her monologue:
All living things have the ability to return to their original form and the heart to go on living. Anywhere can be heaven as long as you have the will to live. After all, you're alive and you can find the chance to achieve happiness anywhere.

Which I took to mean that everybody can come back to earth with "anywhere" meaning the circumstances you are living in, while it actually means exactly what it says: Everybody can come back, but it won't necessarily be earth, as anywhere can be paradise/heaven, and Yui knows just the place. I wonder how Shinji will react when he finds out. I also wonder how the people to go with Yui were chosen - if they had a choice at all. More fuel for my "Yui is beyond human concerns" theory. :emogendo:

I also wonder how the last bit fits in:
As long as the Sun, the Moon and the Earth exist, everything will be alright.

This centers everything pretty clearly on the solar system, and mirrors her dialogue with Fuyutsuki:
Yes. Humans can only live on this planet, but Evangelion can live forever, together with the human soul that dwells within it. Even after 5 billion years, when the Earth, the Moon, and even the Sun have disappeared, it will still exist as long as even one person still lives.

So I guess Yui's plans must have changed after her contact experiment, and this flashback conveys outdated information, back when she thought she would be alone?

Edit: Just saw your edit to your P.S. I had a similar thought, that two kinds of experiments took place, one after the other. DNA exchange between Akira/Adam with a quick pregnancy which birthed Kaworu, then the actual contact experiment, which triggered Second Impact.

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Re: Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans

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Postby Reichu » Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:29 pm

@Derantor: By "transfer" all I meant was "Adam releases Angel souls using Gates of Guf, and they're placed into Eva-01's Chamber by the Spear". So, nothing incompatible with what you say. ;) The "metaphysical transformation" part is rather vague. There's a lot of stuff to think about. :dizzy: One consideration is that Eva-01 becomes a Seed with both Fruits, so maybe any Angel or Lilin souls that she acquires need to be transformed to account for that.

Second Impact is a total clusterfuck nightmare. @[email protected] The reason I suggest Adam tried to form the Tree to take in the Lilin's souls is because-- Wait, no, I should stop right there. :tongue: I started writing up another wall of text and then, of course, I realized that writing about all this impact stuff for a story is making me want to talk about it in Discussion, which in turn is making me reveal where the story will go, so I should probably control myself a little better! (At least where the Second Impact stuff is concerned.) :facepalm:

Though, about there being "two kinds of experiments": the scene at the beginning of episode 21' refers to an upcoming "contact experiment with the donor". In other words, the transgenic procedure used to create Kaworu was the "contact experiment". I suppose this works because it's presumably generic "contact experiment" and not Brand Name "Contact Experiment" -- at this point, it doesn't refer to a defined procedure. The term will get reappropriated for that purpose later, to refer to the rather more specific experiments that Yui and Kyoko do with the Evas, but right now it's just "experiment that involves contact of an undisclosed kind". A nice, non-indicative name that would let personnel chat about highly classified work in the presence of such things as teenage brats that have been brought to base by their deranged fathers. That said, I'm sure the same phrase is used for all three experiments entirely on purpose, to invite us to compare them. Live human test subject being spiritually exposed to a giant god. Two of the experiments verifiably involve scientist parents of main characters, which provides a potential hint regarding the identity of the "donor". :nyao: And so on.

Flashback / Flashforward

Yui's final monologue is interesting. It's long been used to dismiss the "Eva-01 becomes a Seed" idea, but that never sat right with me. Saying that Yui will just sit around passively doing nothing until the end of time leaves too many other things unaccounted for, ignores the extremely obvious parallels brought into plain sight by Eva2, ignores how the "Starship Eva" plot thread was far more obvious in a prior draft of EoE (a draft where Yui's farewell monologue is already in its final form, or nearly so), performs character assassination on Yui, and so on.

First off, there are Yui's exact words: she doesn't actually say that she will be alone; she says that as long as a single soul (meaning, her) goes on living through Eva, there will always be proof that humanity* existed, and being the singular proof of humanity's existence is what will be lonely. Which, yes, I imagine it would be. Adam and Lilith, too, went on journeys that were effectively solitary; none of the souls they brought ultimately remember their identities and have been born into something new, leaving Adam and Lilith (along with the other five, out there somewhere) as entities created by their people, with memories of those people. Proof that the FAR once existed, each one meant to exist on her own world, all alone. In the same way, Eva-01 will be proof that Homo sapiens existed, but for her it's even lonelier because our species produced only a single Seed.

* (Meaning "Lilin", presumably.)

Second, the flashback in EoE is (probably) another instance of NGE doing multiple things at once. On the one hand, it does function as a flashback, showing that Yui intended to become a Space Mom all along. But on the other... what if it's a disguised glimpse of the future? (The following idea is BlueBasilisk's baby; I'm not sure I would have thought of it on my own.)

Image

Shinji asks "Mother, what will you do?" The actual dialogue provides a pretty lame answer on its own. For the full picture, you have to look at the visual language. What's depicted here?

(A) Woman
(B) Man
(C) Child
(D) Tree
(E) Verge between land and water

When Yui leaves Earth, she has the Spear of Longinus in tow and a Chamber of Guf full of souls.
SPOILER: Show
Image

What's the logical next step? Creation.

The woman, Yui, represents Eva-01, of course. The man, Fuyutsuki, represents the Spear of Longinus. The child, Shinji, represents Yui's future offspring. The tree is a symbol for spiritual creation. Land meeting water -- the shore -- is a symbol for physical creation or birth: life crawling out of the ocean, or the child leaving the womb. So, by considering the visuals, we get the full answer to Shinji's question: Yui will spread the Good News :wink: of humanity on another world... by becoming a Space Mom.

From here, one can descend even deeper into the abyss of glorious crack speculation. Didn't Yui once say something about becoming a mom if she found the right guy...?

When Kozo Met Yui  SPOILER: Show
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Image Image
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This scene comes off VERY differently if you know what's coming. :uhh: Not just because Yui implies she harbors some desire to go full homemaker (which never happens during her Lilin life; she's a working mom), but because of the one she's telling this to, who seems to be falling in love with her right as she says it. Consider: who's standing in for the "Man" in the vision of the Past/Future? Fuyutsuki. Mr. Unrequited Love, who would do absolutely anything for his goddess. If Fuyutsuki = Man = Spear, then maybe... does Fuyutsuki, in some twisted way, get rewarded for his loyalty? Does he become the Spear of Longinus?

It sounds utterly absurd, and maybe it is, but it's the kind of absurd that I always want more of with my Eva, so let's roll with it. We see that the Spear of Longinus puts Eva-01 through a sort of transformation, by "unbirthing" her into the Tree of Life and enabling her to function as a spiritual receptacle. What if the transformation goes both ways? When Yui emerges from Lilith, the Spear is nowhere in sight. It turns out that it's... inside of her??

SPOILER: Show
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Image


Earlier, the Spear burrowed into her core, and, now, it materializes mysteriously from her mouth. As strange as this is, it's logically consistent with NGE's rules: When Yui ate the S2 engine, it manifested in her core, so something "in her core" (or that merged with it, but same difference, right?) could logically be "regurgitated". (It's probably also supposed to be Biblical sword-in-mouth imagery, but never mind that.) This acts as a reversal of Yui's prior "unbirthing" -- the Spear, in turn, is reborn through her. Immediately, its form alters into something never before seen. On top of that: it's completely obedient to her, and it follows her into space like a loyal companion, not somebody who's wondering whether he should kill her or kiss her. So... maybe? The photo does imply that Fuyutsuki goes with her, one way or another...

If you've somehow gotten this far without rejecting this line of inquiry as complete nonsense: It's a bit ambiguous what, exactly, happens to Gendo after Yui eats his more spiritual half. His soul presumably goes to her core, and is the only one to make this journey by esophagus because he's just that special -- but what then? What if the baby Shinji from the flashback/flashforward isn't merely a stand-in for Yui's future offspring, but represents her very first child? Say... is actually Baby Gendo?

And lo! Yui reached her new planet, and impregnated herself with Fuyutsuki many times, and gave birth to many strange god babies, starting with the reincarnation of Gendo. And Gendo grew up into a very handsome god, and because incest is inevitable when gods are just starting things up, he got to renew their marital vows as both her son and husband. Amen. Thank you for attending my lecture.
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Re: Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans / Angel Rebirth

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:47 pm

So how does this fit in (if you think it approaches near enough to canon)? It's not so different from your image above:

SPOILER: Show
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(from until You come to me, of course)
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Re: Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans / Angel Rebirth

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Postby Reichu » Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:56 pm

@pwhodges: The rules dictating the Spears are completely different in NTE, so whatever the answer is, I doubt it will have anything to do with Yui barfing up the Spear of Longinus other than vaguely similar imagery. Only "vaguely" similar because in Eva-01's case, the Spear is telescoping forward from her open mouth, and is manifesting in a blood-like spray from seemingly nowhere. In the case of the ?Adams?, they just seem to be impaled through the back of the mouth. (If the Spears are traumatically forming from inside their mouths, there's currently no way to know.)
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Re: Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans / Angel Rebirth

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Postby Derantor » Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:54 pm

@Reichu: Heh, another interesting journey down the rabbit hole. ^_^

Reg. Second Impact: Oh well, I feared it would be another clusterfuck ... That's why I stopped writing fantasy: Too much to account for with magic. I agree on the multiple meanings of "Contact Experiment" - I was just trying to figure out how this all fits chronologically, and hit on the intriguing idea nothing ... Akira is still alive when he puts Misato in the Capsule Corp Capsule, which is after Adam emerges. It was supposed to explain how Kaworu and Misato survive the AAT-Field: Contact experiment happens (sample of Akira-DNA is introduced to Adam) -> Kaworu is born -> Akira then makes spiritual contact with Adam (second, different experiment - whether planned or not) -> Second Impact. Adam protected both children, as one is hers and the other is Akira's daughter, but why would she kill Akira then ... Ugh, I'll stop myself before I drown in another confusing mess of speculation and wait for your next chapter instead. :emogendo:

Reg. Yui: The funny thing is, I already made the subconcious connection between that flashback image and the final beach scene, where the "creation" metaphor is quite obvious, but, on account of my somewhat cynical outlook, I assumed it was supposed to be an ironic juxtaposition, the future that she thought she would bring vs. the future she actually brought for Shinji. But without that narrow focus on him, her off-world-dream seems like a good, and pretty obvious, alternative.

I also stumbled over Yui's wish to be a mom - which is one of the pillars of my "Gendo wants to be a normal dad" theory (he just internalizes her wishes as his own), which is shaken but not stirred at this point - so I am right with you there. I think at the time she met Fuyutsuki and told him about it, it still was supposed to be her on earth, which then shifted to the angels/humanity on a different planet later on.

I'd like to know what you think about her taking human souls with her. I can see Fuyutsuki and Gendo going with her, but I would find it strange if she takes some random schmugs along as well, as the goal was to separate angels and humans by bringing them to different planets. You talk about her spreading humanity - will she just leave the angels on a different planet, with Adam to watch over them?

Reg. Crack Speculation: Huh, ignoring the lack of support for a moment, that actually sounds rather convincing. Notice how it is always Fuyutsuki who speaks to Yui and explains what she wants?
Fuyutsuki: Humans exist because they have the will to live, and that is the reason she remained within Eva.

Off the top of my head, Gendo never does that. He only wants her back and complains when she won't let herself be piloted by the dummy plug. That would explain why Gendo (apparently) has yet another, different plan from Yui's: She never told him, she only told Fuyutsuki. He might not be her love, but he definitely is the one she trusts. The best friend. The nice guy. And then he fathers her future husband with her to replace himself. :facepalm: Yes, somehow I can see exactly that happening. It also forces Gendo to become Oedipus, which fits right in.

Alternatively, Fuyutsuki always was the right guy all along, and Gendo gets ditched. That would also explain why she doesn't seem to care about Shinji terribly much, leaves him alone with Gendo and then later on earth: She has realized her mistake and goes for Fuyutsuki instead, for a second try - on another planet - in a different body - with a guy which looks like a double-ended-tuning fork at that point. Doesn't tie in baby Shinji quite so nicely, but eh.

Edit: I just noticed that my forum rank is Adam now ... guess I have to change my gender, then. :uhh:

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Re: Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans / Angel Rebirth

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Postby Shun » Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:05 am

Wow so many details! In some parts it seems to me fanfiction, but congratulations for your imagination, very interesting! (no sarcasm)
Yep, I agree on several points. Yui wanted to use the 01 as an ark for save humanity from the Seele's plan, and then take the souls to a new world. Shinji, in the end, did what Yui wanted, only that instead of going to a new world he chose to return to Earth. Probably Seele's plan didn't include an ark to cross the Tree of life to the LCL Sea, so 01/ark is the backdoor introduced by Yui / Gendo / Fuyu.

I add an observation, in the Japanese script "inochi no taiga" (embryo of lifeforce) is 命 の 胎 芽, but without reading the script, listening to "inochi no taiga" sounds like 命 の 大河 (great river / stream of lifeforce).
In EoE the Tree of life therefore has at least two parallel meanings:
* is the principle of lifeforce, i.e. soul principle;
* is the river of lifeforce, i.e. the river of souls;
In Kabbalah the Tree of life / Sephiroth's diagram is the pattern of Ein Sof and Creation's attributes, a representation of existence and a connection between the Spiritual World (Keter) and the Earthly World (Malkuth). Furthermore, at the Osaka Expo 1970 there was the tree of life, the principle of living beings and the representation of the lifeforce that flows from the past to the future.

In EoE the Eva-01 還 元 し て い る, returns/is reducted to the origin, i.e. the Tree of Life. In Eva's mythology, the Tree of life is likely to be an artificial element created thanks to FAR technology (remember that in the Proposal the goal is to liberate all of mankind by scientifically re-creating "the tree of life" forbidden by God ), so represents an artificial principle of lifeforce (命 の 胎 芽) and at the same time allows you to connect the Earthly World to the Spiritual World like a river (命 の 大河). In EoE the souls crosses the Tree of life/River aboard the Eva-01 / Yorishiro/Ark from the Earthly World to the LCL Sea. If the 01 will be a demon, then it will condemn humanity to the LCL sea. If the 01 will be an ark, then it will save humanity, just like Noah's ark in the episode of the Great Flood.

I have a question: what is the original JP script of the dialogue at the lake between Kaworu and Seele? Can you copy it here, or at least suggest a site where I can read it?
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Re: Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans / Angel Rebirth

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Postby Reichu » Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:04 am

@Shun: Interesting point about taiga; I'll have to consider this. The link to the Sephirotic Tree of Life is something I knew was implicit, as well -- the only reason I didn't bring it up here was because I hadn't gotten a chance to completely think through its applicability to my idea about the Spear being a "spiritual inseminator". This concept is something I only stumbled upon this month (I think?); prior to that, I struggled to truly place (in a way that satisfied my own curiosity) what exactly the Spear was doing throughout that scene and what the Tree's "practical purpose" might be. At some point, I'll hopefully figure it out and prepare a less haphazard presentation of the ideas in this thread that I feel hold up. (Some of them are around fifteen years old at this point!)

@Derantor:

I'd like to know what you think about her taking human souls with her. I can see Fuyutsuki and Gendo going with her, but I would find it strange if she takes some random schmugs along as well, as the goal was to separate angels and humans by bringing them to different planets. You talk about her spreading humanity - will she just leave the angels on a different planet, with Adam to watch over them?

Remember, in the context of Eva, Adam's Children are humanity as well! The terminology gets very confusing very quickly, of course, since Lilin are "humanity" by default -- but we know of many non-Lilin that are also human, and in fact the first humans were not Lilin, so, uhhh... :dizzy: (You might know this already, but I just want to make sure!)

I feel fairly confident about Yui bringing a large number of Lilin souls with her. (The idea has plagued my mind for almost 15 years now; I've tried to discard it in the past as too crazy, but I keep coming back to it... This is a common theme with me. :ninja: ) In accordance with your previous post about the gods already knowing what will happen and letting the drama play itself out, the very reason Lilith splits the souls of the Lilin into multiple streams...

Image

...is because, well, same reason Adam has already entrusted Yui with the Angels. The Trinity know that HIP will only be a temporary state of being -- it will end, and Eva will leave for another world afterward. Lilith possesses an ability to see inside people's minds and determine what they truly desire, so, hypothetically, it would be entirely possible to "pre-sort" the Lilin's souls this way. Which ones will want to stay on Earth and live out the rest of their days as mortals? They go into the Black Moon. Which ones possess a drive to escape Earth and transform into something new? They go into Lilith and, in turn, into Eva-01's Chamber.

Following up on previous comments I made without visual corroboration... The souls that enter the Black Moon are accounted for. When the Black Moon is destroyed, we see the souls inside it get liberated and spread back across Earth.

SPOILER: Show
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The souls that went into Lilith, however? These are the only ones that are shown emerging from her body. The countless others that were sorted into her body are... just gone.

SPOILER: Show
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Except they're not. :wink:

SPOILER: Show
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They're with Eva-01.

Funny thing about those crosses... They represent "the Way to God" (i.e., Jesus, as represented by the crucifix, being the means by which Man and God are bridged) -- the thing Gendo was talking about in episode 21 when he had a cross ominously silhouetted behind him. These first appear in the movie as manifestations of Lilith's AATF, used to propel the souls of humanity toward Lilith. When HIP, or artificial evolution, terminates on Earth, the crosses lift up to the heavens, and become a visual element bridging the planet Earth (and the puny Lilin who lived there) with the deified Yui, who is leaving it. Potentially meaning: Yui, in the end, is the God through whom Terran humanity will achieve its evolution.

How so? Not by creating the Singular Being, but by forming a bridge of another kind between god and mortal. Eva-01 is a being who possesses both fruits. So, in theory, her offspring will be the same! Everyone riding Starship Eva (the Ark), Angel and Lilin alike, will be reborn into a race of humanity possibly like none that has ever existed before. How cool is that?

As far as Adam goes: I get the sense that Adam has retired and passed on the mantle. The reason I say this is because Adam seemingly emptied out her Chamber of Guf and then hitched a lift with Yui. If Adam intended to be reborn on another world in the capacity of completing her duties and establishing a Fruit of Life-based race, this seems an odd way of going about things. Eva-01 being taken into Lilith's Chamber of Guf and infused with souls from there indicates that the Gufs can be "nested", so hypothetically Adam could have held onto her children if she so desired. That this did not happen suggests that Yui is responsible for both Seeds' legacies. Which, given she has both Fruits, makes sense in its own way. (That said, all of this is so far from certain that I tend to let my imagination fly toward multiple possibilities at the same time. Adam finally getting to complete her mission on her own, rather than abandoning it to someone else, would be a lovely outcome for her.)

Part of me wishes Anno weren't so damned opaque about the coolest parts of the lore, but I suppose the way he forces us to think and use our imaginations, and place no small amount of faith in ideas that the story will never verify, is part of the charm.
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Re: Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans / Angel Rebirth

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Postby Rei IV » Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:47 pm

The great thing about these theories, in my opinion, is that it actually makes me able to digest (for me at least) EOE more easily. So we know that Yui's motivations aren't simply to be seen as a symbol of humanity's existence but that because she's essentially become God, she will create life another planet, and therefore, "extend" humanity (just not the way we know it) in some sense. This makes much more sense than her doing absolutely nothing until the inevitable comes. In some sense, Yui is probably the greatest humanitarian to ever exist.

:yui_grin:

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Re: Kaworu and SEELE / Gendo's Plans / Angel Rebirth

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Postby GuiBiancarelli » Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:15 pm

How I missed these in-depth lore discussions! :D
I think that's, at least, plausible that Yui took off with a Guf full of souls. I don't know if we'll have a straight confirmation regarding it, but the hints that point to it:

- The missing people in the photograph;
- The crosses rising after 3I ends;
- Rei's "ghost" looking to the "petrified" Eva-01, as a farewell and passing-of-torch;

Since we lack evidence that a Seed have any way to have contact with the souls while they're inside its Guf, I don't think that the dialogue between Yui and Fuyutsuki invalidates the idea, as the soul residing in the Seed's body will in fact be lonely.

---

Regarding the lake scene, I find unconvincing that the monoliths represent the souls of the dead Angels, based on the words they speak to Kaworu (I'll use the transcription found on the wiki, for simplicity's sake):

https://wiki.evageeks.org/Theory_and_Analysis:Kaworu%27s_Agenda

SEELE 12: "There is a man, who is not one of us, attempting to open Pandora's Box once again."


Here we see one of the monoliths refering to Gendo as "not one of us". If the group talking to Kaworu was, in fact, Angels, there would be absolutely no need at all for them to try to separate Gendo from them - he's just a Lilin, after all! But as it's put, Gendo could conceivably be "one of [them] us" and the separation must be clearly stated to Kaworu. Besides, the term "man" is used in the show only when referring to mankind as in "Homo sapiens collective", in contrast to the more generic "human", which applies to Angels and Lilin alike.
Another point is the use of the term "to open Pandora's Box". It's a clear reference to the Greek legend, a Lilin cultural creation. Kaworu, arguably the most "Lilin-versed" of the Angels, finds the simple concept of music amazing, in an alien-like way. It would be strange that a dead previous Angel, with a completely alien set of logic, motivation and vision could simply throw a culture-rooted metaphor casually in a conversation with another Angel.

KAWORU: "Hope? You're saying that is the Lilin's hope?"
SEELE ??: "Hope exists in as many forms as there are people."
SEELE ??: "And that is because hope only exists in the hearts of people."
KEEL: "However, our hope is becoming substantiated."


Here Keel is responding to Kaworu. Note that when the Angel refers to HIP as "Lilin's hope", Keel replies with "our hope", clearly indicating that he's in fact a Lilin.

After the conversation ends and the scene cuts to Misato spying on him, Kaworu states:

KAWORU: "All will be as the Lilin direct it."


So, the instructions presented to him were passed by Lilin.
In light of this, I find more credible (albeit not entirely satisfactory) the hypothesis that the dialogue was Kaworu reminiscing about his time with Seele.

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Armisael is a nice one too. I find the "impregnation" of Eva-00 analogy very elegant! Thematically speaking, it fits the imagery on the episode. It's stated that the Angel is probably trying to resurrect his brethren, but since we don't have any other clue to the actual Souls of the deceased Angels being present in him or in his "chat" with Rei, I don't actually think he would accomplish his goal in the way @Reichu puts. If we notice in the Kaworu's dialogue by the lake, Keel uses the term "resurrected" to refer to the Adam embryo fused to Gendo's hand and we know for a fact that Adam's Soul is not there. Does it means that is possible to "resurrect" something without the being's Soul? Since Project E was also called "Adam Revival Project" and the goal was to create beings akin to Adam without necessarily bringing the original, body and Soul, back to life, "resurect the Angels" in Armisael's case might mean to birth a new set of Angels with the previous forms, using Eva-00 and Rei as a "mother".

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I was write about the Longinus, but this post is already too long so I'll do it in another time. :tongue:
Please, feel free to point mistakes and criticize the points!


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