Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:41 am

View Original Postohno2100 wrote:Honestly, my biggest question about 3.0 (and by extension 3.0+1.0) is how different would they have been if Shinji had came out of Unit 01 early. Like, much earlier. Not like a month or few like in NGE but like, let's say 1-2 years later, maybe 3 or 4.

If Shinji had come out earlier, he would have died of suffocation in space.
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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby Archer » Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:45 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:
View Original Postohno2100#918268 wrote:Honestly, my biggest question about 3.0 (and by extension 3.0+1.0) is how different would they have been if Shinji had came out of Unit 01 early. Like, much earlier. Not like a month or few like in NGE but like, let's say 1-2 years later, maybe 3 or 4.

If Shinji had come out earlier, he would have died of suffocation in space.

Maybe he already did, and that’s why he’s tagged #3 when Wille recovers him :huh:

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:48 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:
View Original Postohno2100#918268 wrote:Honestly, my biggest question about 3.0 (and by extension 3.0+1.0) is how different would they have been if Shinji had came out of Unit 01 early. Like, much earlier. Not like a month or few like in NGE but like, let's say 1-2 years later, maybe 3 or 4.

If Shinji had come out earlier, he would have died of suffocation in space.

I think it's evident that the basis of these what ifs are that Shinji came out of 01 before it was sent in space! :D (or that it wasn't sent in space at all)
After all, we don't know how much time passed between N3I and 01's space adventures.
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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:00 pm

If Shinji had come out before, there would probably have been no need to send Unit 01 into space (as he's the trigger to awaken it and hence cause an impact). And we are told that Shinji was in space, because Kaworu says "welcome back" as he is being returned to Earth.
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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby ElMariachi » Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:53 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:If Shinji had come out before, there would probably have been no need to send Unit 01 into space (as he's the trigger to awaken it and hence cause an impact). And we are told that Shinji was in space, because Kaworu says "welcome back" as he is being returned to Earth.

I'm not sure of that, since we know so little about what an Impact Trigger is and can do and what can't be done without them. After all, Gendo's intended to use a Dummy Plug to fight Zeruel and eat its core to awake (it didn't worked only because Yui interjected), and Mark was also equipped with a Dummy Plug when it fused with Lilith and the 12th Angel and did whatever the hell it did that resulted in 3I, so it seems that an Impact Trigger pilot is not indispensable to start an Impact.
Maybe Dummy Plugs are Impact Triggers and that a regular pilot (aka Asuka and Mari) controlling an Eva can't start an Impact with it, and there are pilots that also have the power of Impact Triggers (Kaworu, Shinji, maybe Rei too, which brings us back to the question of why Shinji have it); or maybe "Impact Trigger" and "can pilot an Evangelion" come together and are synonyms, that Asuka and Mari too have a DSS Choker (or WILLE trust them enough to not fit them with one) and it's just that WILLE didn't had time to explain that little detail before Mark.09 made its Kool Aid impression! :tongue:

It's also possible that even without Shinji inside EVA-01, it can still trigger impacts on its own, since it still has Yui (and now Rei) inside it, and that even if they somehow managed to bring Shinji back earlier, they still would had to send EVA-01 in space. (which is implied by the fact it constantly generate energy and emits a shitton of L-Barrier radiation even after Shinji was extracted)
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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby baldur » Wed May 19, 2021 6:37 pm

Continuing from this thread.

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:Did they explain those things, though? From what I remember, Shinji was like "Why are you all so mean to me, what's going on?" and then Misato and Ritsuko just decided not to respond because Anno was saving the big dramatic plot twist for later. They never really told Shinji anything about what he did.

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:However, they aren't really so clear in many of these explanations. They don't really explain why the are "punishing" Shinji with the DSS Choker or why they are angry.

I'm pretty sure they never refuse to answer Shinji's questions. Some of their answers were vague, but this is also a matter of "how much do we want to drop on a very emotionally unstable 14 year old", as well as, again, Shinji's time with Wille being cut extremely short.

My point is that when Shinji asked, Wille answered. And none of their answers were misleading or false, either.

BusterMachine4 wrote:But in my opinion, the problem isn't what WILLE said, it's how they said it. They were way too hostile and cruel towards a confused 14 year old boy

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:Not to mention that these "explanations" are told with a lot of hostility.

I don't disagree, as I indicated earlier.

Konja7 wrote:This is only "explained" when Shinji heard Rei's voice and he is trying to follow it. So, I'm not totally sure if it counts like information WILLE wants to reveal to Shinji.

I mean, when would it have come up otherwise? Whether they "want" to reveal it to him or not, they still do. I don't see why that wouldn't count.

BusterMachine4 wrote: and it felt like a plot contrivance to make Shinji as depressed and alienated as possible without it really making sense. If WILLE were actually thinking logically, they probably would have just left Shinji with Sakura instead of dragging him onto the bridge and reintroducing him to all the protagonists just so Shinji can realize that all his friends hate him now.

I've never had any problem with it. I also don't think Wille actually hate Shinji, it's frequently hinted that most of them still care about him despite their bitterness, which explains why they might want to personally talk to him but still exude an air of resentment. Also, characters acting illogically does not equate to a plot contrivance. Humans don't tend to act in perfectly rational ways here in the real world either.

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Wed May 19, 2021 7:01 pm

View Original Postbaldur wrote:I'm pretty sure they never refuse to answer Shinji's questions. Some of their answers were vague, but this is also a matter of "how much do we want to drop on a very emotionally unstable 14 year old", as well as, again, Shinji's time with Wille being cut extremely short.

My point is that when Shinji asked, Wille answered. And none of their answers were misleading or false, either.

I'm pretty sure they actually did refuse to answer Shinji's questions quite a few times. I remember several scenes where Shinji is asking Misato and Ritsuko questions, and they just gave him the silent treatment. Not something you want to do when you're trying to make a good first impression.
I've never had any problem with it. I also don't think Wille actually hate Shinji, it's frequently hinted that most of them still care about him despite their bitterness, which explains why they might want to personally talk to him but still exude an air of resentment. Also, characters acting illogically does not equate to a plot contrivance. Humans don't tend to act in perfectly rational ways here in the real world either.

I think it's pretty clear that WILLE actually does hate him. Otherwise, the bridge crew wouldn't be giving him the glare of death constantly, Misato and Ritsuko wouldn't be giving him the silent treatment, and Asuka wouldn't try to punch him in the face. I don't see much hidden empathy in their actions. And also, I know that people often make mistakes in the heat of the moment. But WILLE had plenty of time to prepare for Shinji waking up. Instead of putting him on some sort of tour of shame around the ship, they should have either kept him in a cell with Sakura, or just kept him sedated the whole time. Alienating Shinji in the way they did just wasn't necessary.

Also, since my post in the other thread got deleted: I think the way Blockio told us to move the discussion was overly hostile, a complete strawman, and just condescending in general. How is treating a depressed and alienated teenage boy with basic human decency "pampering him?" Also, the whole "literally Satan" stock phrase has always been a blatant piece of flamebait. I expect more professional behavior from the mods.

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby baldur » Thu May 20, 2021 1:16 am

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:I'm pretty sure they actually did refuse to answer Shinji's questions quite a few times. I remember several scenes where Shinji is asking Misato and Ritsuko questions, and they just gave him the silent treatment. Not something you want to do when you're trying to make a good first impression.

Again, they're uncouth with him but they don't refuse to answer his questions. There's a scene where Wille is engaging in battle and Shinji has to repeat himself a bit when asking "what about me?" but they explain to him that they don't need (or want) him at the moment. I suppose I could be missing something, but you saying "quite a few times" has me fairly convinced you're misremembering things. Gendo is the one that gives Shinji the silent treatment.

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:I think it's pretty clear that WILLE actually does hate him. Otherwise, the bridge crew wouldn't be giving him the glare of death constantly

I think this is more a result of the film being very tied to Shinji's perceived reality. That being said, I wasn't really talking about the bridge crew, I was talking about the more prominent characters like Sakura, Mari and Asuka, and Misato and Ritsuko.

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:Misato and Ritsuko wouldn't be giving him the silent treatment

Yeah. And they don't. Now, I don't really think Ritsuko cares much about Shinji, but the film makes it pretty clear that Misato still has a soft spot for him despite acting rough. She can't bring herself to execute him when he flees, and when she turns up at the end and realizes she can't keep pursuing Shinji she whispers his name in what sounds to me like a tender, concerned tone.

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote: Asuka wouldn't try to punch him in the face.

She wouldn't? This is Asuka we're talking about. Mari constantly implies that she still has some feelings for him, and the fact that Asuka seeks him out in the end to lead him by the hand back to safety (mirroring Misato in EoE) says plenty.

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote: I don't see much hidden empathy in their actions.

Again - I think the fact that they actually make an effort to communicate with him, answer him truthfully, and attempt to protect him is revealing and a deliberate contrast to the faction that manipulates and fucks with him to no end. Yes, they place a bomb collar on him, but the film makes a whole point about a) this not being all that crazy as a protective measure since Shinji literally goes on to initiate the apocalypse again, and b) Wille not having the guts to pull the trigger when push comes to shove, and even going above and beyond to save him.

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote: And also, I know that people often make mistakes in the heat of the moment. But WILLE had plenty of time to prepare for Shinji waking up. Instead of putting him on some sort of tour of shame around the ship, they should have either kept him in a cell with Sakura, or just kept him sedated the whole time. Alienating Shinji in the way they did just wasn't necessary.

He wasn't put on a "tour of shame", he's brought to Ritsuko and Misato for verification and introductions, and then sent off. They are attacked and Shinji gets assertive about wanting to join the fight, to which they say that he's not wanted, and even if he was, he couldn't do anything. When things have calmed down, they meet up with him and explain to him some details about his situation. They answer every question he asks honestly. Asuka comes in to see him but is angry with him. The meeting is cut short when they're attacked again. Rei Q breaks Shinji out and Wille implores him not to leave, both for his sake and theirs. He storms off when Misato (correctly) tells him that Rei Q is not the Rei he remembers.

If you untether yourself from Shinji's POV, there's really not much that Wille do here that is too outrageous. Shinji's reaction is more about not being able to face an unbearable and sudden reality. He gets hung up on the idea that Wille is lying to him and manipulating him, but we know this isn't true, and I don't think there's much Wille could've done to prevent Shinji from getting this impression. Yes, they could've been a little less aggressive with him, but Wille's also at war currently and judging from the time Shinji spends with them they can't really afford to waste that much time on nicities and accomodations for Mr. Apocalypse Initiator. Even then, he's given what is essentially a personal assistant that's nothing but nice to him.

Also, the way Asuka and Ritsuko behave towards Shinji really isn't much different from what Shinji remembers, it's Misato who surprises Shinji so much, but she's clearly taken on a lot of responsibilities and been hardened by the past 14 years. Shinji certainly interprets her behavior as disdainful, but really, she's just being cold and detached. Gendo treated him worse 14 years ago.

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:Also, since my post in the other thread got deleted: I think the way Blockio told us to move the discussion was overly hostile, a complete strawman, and just condescending in general. How is treating a depressed and alienated teenage boy with basic human decency "pampering him?" Also, the whole "literally Satan" stock phrase has always been a blatant piece of flamebait. I expect more professional behavior from the mods.

It was a little forceful, but I don't think he was wrong about the discussion veering into off-topic territory. It's not like he was shutting down discussion, just telling us to take it elsewhere (and expressing a little tiredness about how often it's been had, which I think is fair enough).

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby pwhodges » Thu May 20, 2021 3:39 am

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:But WILLE had plenty of time to prepare for Shinji waking up.

Actually, it's not clear that they expected him to return in a recognisable form at all. They knew back in Ha that his plug depth had gone beyond the level at which they thought he would lose his humanity, and were clearly treating him as an unknown quantity when we first see him in Q.

As for taking him to the bridge and not answering questions, well, perhaps the commander of a battleship under attack has other things to concentrate on at that point than going to see unexpected visitors and indulging them in conversation - those things happen later, but are interrupted by Rei before they get very far.
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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby Zusuchan » Sat May 22, 2021 3:23 am

BusterMachine4 wrote: Also, since my post in the other thread got deleted: I think the way Blockio told us to move the discussion was overly hostile, a complete strawman, and just condescending in general. How is treating a depressed and alienated teenage boy with basic human decency "pampering him?" Also, the whole "literally Satan" stock phrase has always been a blatant piece of flamebait. I expect more professional behavior from the mods.


We have a designated place for criticisms of the staff. It would be much appreciated if such criticism was to be exposed there, instead of other places.

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby swagbuckking1 » Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:53 pm

@baldur, I can't fully address your points since it requires spoiling 3.0+1.0 outside of this forum, so here's a link to my spoiler filled post: post/922558/The-flaws-and-or-artistic-validity-of-Shin-and-NTE-as-a-whole/#922558.
Also you can check through some of my posts in the "Did 3.0+1.0 justify WILLE's treatment of Shinji?" thread that I made to get a good idea of what WILLE actually had in store for Shinji had he not left with Rei Q. I've written quite a lot on whether WILLE's treatment of Shinji comes across as realistic, necessary and coherent with some of the dialogue we see from some of the bridge crew, so yeah feel free to peruse them in your own time.

View Original Postbaldur#923269 wrote:Again, they're uncouth with him but they don't refuse to answer his questions. There's a scene where Wille is engaging in battle and Shinji has to repeat himself a bit when asking "what about me?" but they explain to him that they don't need (or want) him at the moment. I suppose I could be missing something, but you saying "quite a few times" has me fairly convinced you're misremembering things. Gendo is the one that gives Shinji the silent treatment.


I have to respectfully disagree with this. Ritsuko tells Shinji that he has a bomb on his neck and it is his punishment for "awakening" an eva, to which he understandably pleads Misato for answers as to why it is necessary. Misato doesn't answer, Ritsuko does not explain what awakening is and instead pivots to Sakura to state her name and rank. Since Ritsuko introduced the term awakening and yet failed to explain it, one can make the case that Shinji was arguably more confused than he was to begin with. I have heard other people state that they deliberately withheld information of Shinji's involvement in NTI and Unit 1's awakening to spare his feelings, but this doesn't make sense considering he was just told his mother-figure has ordered a bomb be placed on his neck and it's because he is being punished. That does not exactly show concern for his feelings. For those that say that they would have explained everything to him eventually had Mark 09 not interrupted, then I direct you back to the above point but I also ask why not explain then and there? The whole purpose of that "briefing" was to fill Shinji in, so why only partially tell him things? It makes no sense to bring him in specifically for explaining things and then leaving out key information to be told at a later, unspecified time.

View Original Postbaldur#923269 wrote:I think this is more a result of the film being very tied to Shinji's perceived reality. That being said, I wasn't really talking about the bridge crew, I was talking about the more prominent characters like Sakura, Mari and Asuka, and Misato and Ritsuko.


SPOILER: Show
Most of WILLE do not appear to hate Shinji from certain dialogue we see in 3.0+1.0. I won't go into spoilers, but it does seem that some of the crew are aware Shinji never intended to cause NTI and one even states that he is just a kid. Until I am able to see the vocal intonation of this dialogue, I will assume that WILLE are in fact understanding individuals in regard's to Shinji's mistakes but were simply made to act in a overwhelmingly paranoid manner to progress the plot.


Shinji is only dangerous when inside an Eva, this can never be emphasised enough, so why the characters would resort to such extreme measures despite this and the fact they never intended to let him pilot or anticipate he would ever escape to pilot again, is beyond comprehension.

View Original Postbaldur#923269 wrote:Again - I think the fact that they actually make an effort to communicate with him, answer him truthfully, and attempt to protect him is revealing and a deliberate contrast to the faction that manipulates and fucks with him to no end. Yes, they place a bomb collar on him, but the film makes a whole point about a) this not being all that crazy as a protective measure since Shinji literally goes on to initiate the apocalypse again,


Once again I direct you to my above point regarding Ritsuko's pivot towards Sakura. I've made a whole essay on the necessity (or lack thereof) of the choker and it's role in pushing Shinji to leave. In my opinion, it was a self-fulfilling prophecy on WILLE's part by placing the choker on him. Out of fear he would cause an impact, they placed a lethal device on him and yet this simply alienated him to leave so his father could manipulate him into causing another impact. I've written before on what a wiser step would have been:

View Original Postswagbuckking1#922558 wrote:A cell will render him harmless. If you are going to imprison him, then just imprison him. Everything else is pointless. Don't slap an explosive collar on his neck if he isn't piloting an Eva. Go talk to him in his cell instead of summoning him to you. Because in that case, he can't be that dangerous if you're letting him leave his prison cell. Don't tell him that he has a killing device on his neck and it's because he is being "punished". Don't change the subject when he actually asks what he is being punished for (Ritsuko introduces Sakura when Shinji asks Misato why the choker is needed) and actually explain what "awakening an Eva" means. Placing the DSS choker on him when you already intend to put him in solitary confinement comes across as illogical, unnecessary and sadistic.


SPOILER: Show
If I may add to that though, I now believe it would have been wiser to, as BusterMachine4 stated, to keep Shinji with Sakura at all times. I would add though that it probably would have been wise to first tell Shinji that they intend to take him to "old friends living in a certain village" the first chance they get but first they need to place him in "protective custody" (I am changing the script to suggest that this is what they should have done, not what they actually did).


It would have been wise to get Shinji away from the wunder to civilian life ASAP as here he would have been protected from the unkillable Mark 09 and he would not have felt alienated by WILLE to want to leave with it in the first place. If this was done then the likelihood of Shinji GTFOing with Rei Q the first chance he got, would have been greatly reduced.

Nevertheless, they should really have kept him in a secure cell at all times, instead of taking him to the bridge to authenticate the choker and they should not have brought him to Ritsuko for his "briefing" which only served to alienate him and arguably confuse him further. If they absolutely needed to speak to him, then they should have gone to him in his cell instead of him being brought to them.

It must also be stated that before he calls out to Rei, he says that he has "had enough". It's because of the frustration from WILLE's hostility towards him that Shinji even calls out to Rei in the first place. If they were less hostile, then the likelihood of him calling out to Rei out of frustration and giving away his location, would have been greatly reduced.

EDIT:
Furthermore, the DSS choker did not simply serve as a "protective measure". Ritsuko states that it's a "symbol of his punishment". This indicates that it transcends a purely pragmatic measure; a reluctantly employed but necessary evil for preventing impacts, but however one that serves to humiliate and shame the supposed "offender" for the emotional gratification and appeasement of the WILLE members in their (almost) vigilante-like version of "justice". If simply wearing the choker was Shinji's punishment, what guarantee is there that WILLE would have removed the choker from him if they had defeated NERV and destroyed all the Evas? There isn't any, after all Sakura herself states that "It's never coming off". We're not given any indication that this is something they are reluctantly doing to Shinji but going through with it anyway because they feel they have to, in fact we're told they're doing it to punish him. Shinji could have been wearing that choker for the rest of his life for all we as the audience know, a device to constantly shame, humiliate and remind him of his mistakes and transgressions whilst also letting him know he could be killed at any moment and there's not a damn thing he could do about it. Whilst you may think this is an irrational extrapolation, there's nothing to suggest that this wouldn't have been the case, and attempts to argue that WILLE placed the choker on Shinji purely for pragmatic reasons fall flat on their face because of this.

View Original Postbaldur#923269 wrote:and b) Wille not having the guts to pull the trigger when push comes to shove, and even going above and beyond to save him.


Mari realised that the only way to stop 4th impact was to eject Shinji, there is nothing to suggest they specifically were trying to "save" him. Asuka states to "take care of the brat's eva", this can be interpreted multiple ways. Also, there have been discussions on this forum that the AA rounds that Mari used may in fact have been lethal to Shinji had he been in a normal eva, but I digress. The point I am trying to make is there is nothing to suggest that Shinji's life being saved was anywhere near on WILLE's list of priorities as you suggest there was.
Last edited by swagbuckking1 on Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:50 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby Konja7 » Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:00 pm

View Original Postswagbuckking1 wrote:
SPOILER: Show
Most of WILLE do not appear to hate Shinji from certain dialogue we see in 3.0+1.0. I won't go into spoilers, but it does seem that some of the crew are aware Shinji never intended to cause NTI and one even states that he is just a kid. Until I am able to see the vocal intonation of this dialogue, I will assume that WILLE are in fact understanding individuals in regard's to Shinji's mistakes but were simply made to act in a overwhelmingly paranoid manner to progress the plot.


This is already a spoiler even if you want to be mysterious.

SPOILER: Show
Also, I disagree they are understanding with Shinji in that scene. It seems most of them are mainly trying to defend Misato's actions.


This isn't the topic to mention that.

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby swagbuckking1 » Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:39 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:This is already a spoiler even if you want to be mysterious.


Fine I'll make the changes.

EDIT: Okay spoiler tags have been added.

SPOILER: Show
As for you disagreeing with me on what that dialogue says about WILLE's attitudes towards Shinji, I did mention in my post that I will change my opinion depending on their vocal intonations, so there is that. We will just have to wait and see.

baldur
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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby baldur » Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:34 pm

View Original Postswagbuckking1 wrote:@baldur, I can't fully address your points since it requires spoiling 3.0+1.0 outside of this forum, so here's a link to my spoiler filled post: post/922558/The-flaws-and-or-artistic-validity-of-Shin-and-NTE-as-a-whole/#922558.
Also you can check through some of my posts in the "Did 3.0+1.0 justify WILLE's treatment of Shinji?" thread that I made to get a good idea of what WILLE actually had in store for Shinji had he not left with Rei Q. I've written quite a lot on whether WILLE's treatment of Shinji comes across as realistic, necessary and coherent with some of the dialogue we see from some of the bridge crew, so yeah feel free to peruse them in your own time.

I'm personally staying away from spoilers, so I don't really think I can make a response to your post, apologies for that. I skimmed over it and can say that you probably have some valid points regarding the necessity of the DSS Choker.

also nice baldsuko avatar

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby swagbuckking1 » Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:55 pm

View Original Postbaldur wrote:also nice baldsuko avatar


Thank you. I made it myself. I also made an edit with Ritsuko's face on DBZ Broly (but I'm sure you guys don't want to see that).


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