Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:18 pm

View Original PostBlockio wrote:Well yes, but if they put it on him they still assumed that he himself can still be an impact trigger

No, they don’t. The event they explicitly refer to as being the reason for placing the DSS Choker on Shinji (and the footage they replay of said event) is the moment when Eva Unit 01 awoke in outer space during Asuka’s earlier mission and the beginning of the film. N3I was never mentioned as the reason for the DSS Choker.

I’m beginning to think that most of people’s hang ups with the film would be absolved if they simply watched it in good faith; paying attention to the character motivations that are clearly expressed throughout the film.
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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby Blockio » Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:32 pm

The only purpose of the DSS Choker is to prevent impact events - Deification Shutdown System, with Deification being what happened during NTI and later 4I. It's right there in the name; if they didn't think that Shinji could still pose any danger, they wouldn't have bothered with it.
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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby Settie » Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:10 pm

^ Been a while since i last saw 3.0 but i'm fairly sure there's a shot of unit-1 in its radiant giant stage when they're explaining the choker to Shinji. Also pretty odd to put an anti-piloting device on someone they had 0 intention of letting pilot again.

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby Derantor » Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:50 pm

View Original PostSettie wrote:Also pretty odd to put an anti-piloting device on someone they had 0 intention of letting pilot again.

Which can only mean that they fear that he has some way to do it against their will, whether on his own or with help from NERV, which would also explain their attempt to get him to submit to their will, as that is only relevant if he is free to excercise that will.

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby intermediateO » Fri May 01, 2020 12:11 am

View Original PostBlockio wrote:the inherent flaw with that theory is that
a) the entire point of Q is characters being morally grey, so "Wille is lying and literally satan" isn't really gonna cut it and
b) Nerv and especially Kaworu lied to Shinji a lot more than Wille ever had the chance to.

Also I have no idea what exactly counts as gaslighting in your book, I've seen that thrown around as a buzzword so much that it has basically lost all meaning beyond "I don't like this thing that someone may or may not be doing" at this point; please elabortate on that


I too, have only encountered the word "gaslighting" in recent years, because of it's obvious upswing in usage due to the spread of bad faith tactics online and in real life.
I emplore you to look up the etymology of the word and it's rise into modern usage, it's quite facinating, but to keep things simple:
Gaslighting is basically the manipulation of someone to question their own understanding of reality.
A good real life example is Munchausen Syndrome, where parents will purposefully raise their child to believe they have certain allergies or other illnesses to manipulate them into being more dependent on them.
On the low-end of the scale you have people who tell their girlfriend, "You didn't see me with that other girl last Saturday! You're crazy!" when being directly confronted with their SO's discovery.

Obviously, people lie and manipulate other people, and gaslighting is just a more "hip" way that makes calling it out more convenient. I know some people have an aversion to new "woke" terms, but I really recommend googling the etymology of them when this aversion comes up, because it really helps see that the words and the acts they are describing have been around for soooo long, and if anything, it's sad that we are only now addressing them so openly.

Moving on.

a) I don't think you can say this as fact. In my opinion, we can't know the "point" of 3.0 yet. It was a movie that presented a lot of questions and had a lot of setup, seemingly to lead into Shin Eva and have the stuff answered and plotlines concluded. This is something that the staff said recently themselves in the 3.0 commentary. And they have always said that 3.0 and Shin were supposed to go together.
I do agree with you that grey morality is a "theme" of the movie though, whether intended or not. But that's the thing that is rather frightening about the movie though.
For me, Misato's characterization is either one of two things.
ー1)Bad writing(characters doing counterproductive things to the motivations we've been given)
ー2)Misato is a bad guy. Basically, a new Gendo for Shinji. (And the way I see it, she's even worse. Again, I hope that this is the case. Basically, both Gendo and Misato have goals in mind that are bigger than Shinji, and instead of handling him more delicately, they chose not to, knowingly causing him unnecessary anguish.)
There is a large part of the fandom though that seems adverted to both of these takes though. That's what frightens me. A common take is basically, "The writing is straightforward and makes sense, and Misato is still a gung-ho good guy!" And what frightens me even more, is that maybe that was actually what Anno wanted.
In a way, 3.0 felt to me like they split up a whodunit mystery novel into two parts. But the whole point of a whodunit is, well, who done did it, isn't it? And usually, any good one, has you surprised in someway, and looking back and what came before in a new light. Basically, you kinda gaslight your audience, but in kinda a fun way they are already expecting, for the sake of entertainment.
If 3.0 and Shin were originally released as a double feature too, I could see something like this having had worked, people watching 3.0 and getting TV ending WTFness levels from it and chatting about it during intermission, and then coming back into the theater to see Shin and then getting EOE levels of resolution and contentment.

So please, just imagine if everything I said about Misato being the bad guy and gaslighting comes true and is adressed in Shin. Imagine how painful it has been to watch a director basically gaslight his own fans for 8 yesrs and let them fight each other.


b) Nerv? In 3.0? Or as a whole up until now? In 3.0, Nerv(basically just Gendo and Fuyutsuki) pretty much has had minimal interaction with Shinji, and thus, basically no chance to really lie to him. They basically just order him around.
As for Kaworu, I actually like to believe he is lying as well. In my original post I even said he was one of the main people gaslighting Shinji too. I didn't dive too deep into it though, to keep the topic more focused on the "Misato" part of the forum title rather than the "or anyone" part.
Plus, Kaworu himself is hard to adress for two reasons.
ー1)To what extent is Kaworu himself being gaslit? Because he is, even by his own admission. Gendo(and maybe Seele too) gave him false information of the spears in Domga. In the original series too, Kaworu is gaslit basically his entire life by Seele, believing that they are raising him to one day reunite with Adam in Dogma. In both instances, he only realizes their lies and scheme at the last moment.
ー2)Who even IS this Kaworu? It's not a theory of my own, but I cannot ignore the possibility that this Kaworu is not the one we see at the end of 2.0. If there are Rei clones (and multiple seemingly active at the same time too) then why can't there be Kaworu clones? At the end of 1.0 too, we see a Kaworu awaken from the 3rd opened "coffin" of a set of 5. There are even fans who think that the Kaworu shown in the teaser for Shin Eva is in fact the Kaworu from 2.0, alive and with Wille. Again, not my theory, or my hope, but I respect that it is a possibility and that 3.0 gives us no evidence of a continuity between 2.0 Kaworu and 3.0 Kaworu.

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby pwhodges » Fri May 01, 2020 3:28 am

View Original PostShinji Ikari Expy wrote:Shinji did cause N3I, but it’s not clear how much that contributed to the state of the world in 3.0. We know a lot happened since then. Regardless, he’s partially responsible for the way things are.

But it should be remembered that he did not do that deliberately or knowingly.

Misato was his commanding officer at the time, so she's partly responsible for what happened. Leaders are always held accountable for their subordinates and disasters that occur on their watch. The difference is that she has had to face the consequences of her actions; he has not.

It has never occurred to me to think about whether that feeds directly into the formation Wille. Perhaps it wasn't a rebellion (as I've assumed), but that after Misato was disciplined or thrown out, her local subordinates went with her to help her set up a counter-organisation.
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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri May 01, 2020 5:19 am

View Original PostBlockio wrote:The only purpose of the DSS Choker is to prevent impact events - Deification Shutdown System, with Deification being what happened during NTI and later 4I. It's right there in the name; if they didn't think that Shinji could still pose any danger, they wouldn't have bothered with it.

That name was given to it because it was initially designed and built for Kaworu to wear, as the film also clearly states is the scene where Kaworu takes the chocker from Shinji. The naming convention behind the device and the motivation to place the device on Shinji were explicitly stated to be two different things.

I’m sure you’ve actually watched this movie at some point, but it sounds more like you’re referencing Wikipedia or TV Tropes or something in order to construct your arguments.
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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby intermediateO » Fri May 01, 2020 5:52 am

View Original PostShinji Ikari Expy wrote: Shinji did cause N3I, but it’s not clear how much that contributed to the state of the world in 3.0. We know a lot happened since then. Regardless, he’s partially responsible for the way things are.

I just fundamentally disagree with this thinking and think it is very dangerous and harmful. It is the same leap of logic that child abusers use to beat their own children.
"It's your fault Mom left. You cried to much and annoyed her. You deserve to be punched"
"Your younger sister was scared of you so she practiced biking by herself and got ran over. You think this hurts? You should have been the one to who died."

Scary logic, no? What did Shinji do wrong? What things fall under his responsibility at the end of 2.0?

Probably the most damning thing about this take though, is that textually, Shinji STILL SAVED THE ENTIRE PLANET AT THE END OF 2.0.

Zeruel was no longer code blue and could walk up to Lilith and initiate 3rd Impact herself.

We don’t know what Wille has been telling its newest members about the events of N3I.

True
Your scenario of the old Nerv staff blaming everything on Shinji is unlikely.

I'd wouldn't say it is unlikely. It's just one of the possibilities. But I also wouldn't say I think they blame him for everything, just that they blame him for things that weren't actually his fault.
It's pretty easy to see, even from the outside, he was manipulated by someone else.

I'm wondering were you're getting this from? Do you have someone specific in mind? To me, I read 3.0 as a movie were basically everyone is manipulating Shinji in some way or another.
Wille is angry at Shinji for his recklessness and disregard for everyone else; they're also afraid of what he might do next.

I do think that on a surface level this is how things appear to be, but this information is never directly depicted. We don't know what the others have been told about Shinji or what they really think about him. But when you think about it, things don't really add up again. If we're talking only what the text has literally shown us, we would have to extrapolate that Wille members are disgruntled at Shinji because he saved the world? The reaction doesn't fit, and I don't think it's supposed to until we find out what people really think of him in Shin Eva.
Kaworu was likely manipulating Shinji. I won't go into it because it has been covered here numerous times, but don't take his words at face value. The world doesn't blame Shinji for everything; the world has moved on from Shinji. He has to come to terms with the fact that it doesn't revolve around him anymore.

I pretty much agree with all of this. I also said in my original posts that Kaworu is one of the main gaslighters in my eyes. Again though, we really don't know what the world blames Shinji specifically for, because it is mainly only communicated through harsh glares and clenched fists.
Misato was his commanding officer at the time, so she's partly responsible for what happened.

I agree that she should be.
Leaders are always held accountable for their subordinates and disasters that occur on their watch. The difference is that she has had to face the consequences of her actions; he has not. Regardless, her new subordinates at Wille can see past that and have faith in her. That should give you hope for Shinji.

This is the kinda gaslighty stuff I'm talking about. None of this is depicted, or even hinted at in 3.0 at all. This is all just fan theory that you have come up with. I agree that it is one of the possibilities, but this just plainly is not supported by the movie itself or any tangential media.

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby pwhodges » Fri May 01, 2020 7:15 am

View Original PostintermediateO wrote:I agree that she [Misato] should be [held responsible for her subordinate's actions].

This is the kinda gaslighty stuff I'm talking about. None of this is depicted, or even hinted at in 3.0 at all. This is all just fan theory that you have come up with. I agree that it is one of the possibilities, but this just plainly is not supported by the movie itself or any tangential media.

3.0 tells us exactly nothing about the origin of Wille, so we have only fan theories to fall back on. I suggested above the possibility of Misato's blame or punishment being part of that.
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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby Derantor » Fri May 01, 2020 7:29 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:The naming convention behind the device and the motivation to place the device on Shinji were explicitly stated to be two different things.

Unit 01 awakens in 2.0, because Shinji loses control of his emotions -> Near Third Impact happens, is stopped by Kaworu.
"Shinji, we put this choker on you, in case you can not control your emotions while piloting."

I mean ... it is pretty straight forward here that they are worried about Shinji causing another (near) Impact, isn't it? What else would warrant lethal force in case of a repeat performance? Shinji's tantrum where he threatened to destroy the NERV-pyramid? To point to the fact that they don't explicitely tell him that is kinda moot when you expect us to extrapolate their motivations from their reactions at all other points, not taking everything they say at face value.

intermediateO wrote:But I also wouldn't say I think they blame him for everything, just that they blame him for things that weren't actually his fault.

They clearly blame him for Unit 01 awakening, thus making an Impact possible and starting the aborted Near Thrid Impact (blaming him for anything more should be impossible, since Misato saw Kaworu stopping the Impact - unless, of course, they assume that Shinji was in cahoots with that strange Eva Unit appearing out of nowhere). And while it technically is his fault, as he did indeed trigger it, at least two of the people at WILLE, Ritsuko and Misato, must know that they themselves never told him about the possibility of Unit 01 awakening in that manner - whether they knew that beforehand themselves or not is another question. But to assing ill attempt to him, they must assume that he did it deliberately, so they must also assume that somebody else told him how to do it and that Shinji knew of the potential consequences of letting his emotions dictate his actions.

Misato is obviously projecting her own guilt onto Shinji, as she said to him "Do it for yourself (meaning piloting)" - whether he actually heard that or not, she obviously assumes he does. Which explains why she does not tell him exactly what he did, as he'd then just say "What? I didn't know that! I didn't do that intentionally!" (as it happens in pwhodges continuation fic "Afterwards ..."), making her house of cards collapse and shifting the blame back onto her, the adult in the room, who is responsible anyways, thanks to being an adult, being Shinji's superior officer and his legal guardian/foster mom. And while it is of course understandable that you'd want to shift blame onto somebody else, if matters of this magnitude are concerned, it doesn't exactly paint a picture of Misato as anything other than a hypocrite at best and a villain at worst, as she is technically guilty of child abuse (as is the rest of NERV, WILLE and SEELE).

To pick up on something Shinji Ikari Expy said previously:
Shinji Ikari Expy wrote:On a sidenote, I have a deeply unpopular opinion: this particular criticism of 3.0 (i.e. "Wille didn't tell him anything!") is fueled by fans who are upset at seeing their favorite character become an in-universe pariah. So they frame this argument as cinematic criticism.* It's cope.

Since basically every character takes a turn to the decidedly "Black" side of grey morality (out of mallice, immaturity or sheer stupidity, your pick), I'd rather say it is fans desperately trying to find some non-fanfiction explanation or excuse to be able to like any of the characters enough to be able to possibly forgive them, as failing to do so can only mean that you stop caring about the characters, and thus the franchise as a whole. "But they are trying to save the world" only works as an excuse for so long before darkness (or confusion) induced audience apathy sets in.

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby intermediateO » Fri May 01, 2020 8:52 am

View Original PostDerantor wrote:...it doesn't exactly paint a picture of Misato as anything other than a hypocrite at best and a villain at worst, as she is technically guilty of child abuse (as is the rest of NERV, WILLE and SEELE).

Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding

Since basically every character takes a turn to the decidedly "Black" side of grey morality (out of mallice, immaturity or sheer stupidity, your pick), I'd rather say it is fans desperately trying to find some non-fanfiction explanation or excuse to be able to like any of the characters enough to be able to possibly forgive them, as failing to do so can only mean that you stop caring about the characters, and thus the franchise as a whole. "But they are trying to save the world" only works as an excuse for so long before darkness (or confusion) induced audience apathy sets in.

Bingo Bingo Bingo

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby Blockio » Fri May 01, 2020 11:22 am

Can we all get back to actual evidence-driven debate instead of throwing ad hominem and whatever that last post is supposed to be at one another? This thread had some serious potential, but as things look right now we're just spinning in circles at this point.
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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri May 01, 2020 11:32 am

^ I’m on it.

View Original PostDerantor wrote:I mean ... it is pretty straight forward here that they are worried about Shinji causing another (near) Impact, isn't it? What else would warrant lethal force in case of a repeat performance? Shinji's tantrum where he threatened to destroy the NERV-pyramid? To point to the fact that they don't explicitely tell him that is kinda moot when you expect us to extrapolate their motivations from their reactions at all other points, not taking everything they say at face value.

Shinji did have a tantrum in 2.0, and they didn’t put a collar on him then. Referencing that event is objectively irrelevant to whatever point you’re trying to make here.

Also, insisting that we can’t take Wille at face value kinda contradicts the desire to have Wille explain things to Shinji. What’s the point in demanding an explanation from Misato if you’re simply gonna claim she’s lying the whole time? Furthermore, where does this notion of Wille being untrustworthy come from? They told Shinji that pilot of Mark.09 wasn’t Rei, and they were discovered to be 100% factual. Misato tells Shinji that he wasn’t needed to help Asuka, and she ended up being 100% accurate there as well. They side with wanting to destroy Nerv, and it turns out that Nerv was up to no good. Based on that track record, where is this weariness from the audience expected to come from within terms of their relationship with Wille or its members?
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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby Derantor » Fri May 01, 2020 12:15 pm

Edit: Scratch what I previously wrote. Yes, their stated motivation for putting the trigger on Shinji is to make an Awakening impossible. We can therefore not say that they are afraid of Shinji still being a trigger for Third Impact, as an Awakening is a prerequisite, not an Impact itself. I'll leave my original reply up in the spoiler below, where I argued that it would be likely for them to be afraid of such an occurence, while you were strictly speaking about what is actually made explicit in the movie.

SPOILER: Show
View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Shinji did have a tantrum in 2.0, and they didn’t put a collar on him then. Referencing that event is objectively irrelevant to whatever point you’re trying to make here.

The question is: Why would they put a collar on Shinji?
The answer: Because they are afraid he might do something harmful.
What was harmful in Shinji's past that should not be repeated in the future?
Stated Reason: "Shinji losing control of his emotions."
Occasions where Shinji lost control of his emotions:
1.: Temper Tantrum at NERV-HQ
2.: Triggering Third Impact
Which of those incidents would cause more harm if Shinji does it again, thus be a good reason to use lethal force to stop it from occuring again? Or if you want to stick to their exact wording:
00:25:48 {Ritsuko} It's a physical safety device that prevents Awakenings.
00:25:51 {Ritsuko} It symbolizes both your punishment, and our mistrust in you.
00:25:55 {Shinji} What do you mean?
00:25:56 {Ritsuko} Should you succumb to your emotions while piloting an Eva, and the risk of Awakening becomes too great to avoid,
00:26:04 {Ritsuko} this will intervene by terminating your life.

"While you are piloting" - meaning, that it is not a device to simply make it impossible for him to pilot, but there to stop an "Awakening". An "Awakening", then, must be something different than merely activating an Eva, and it has a condition attached to it: "Should you succumb to your emotions [there is a risk of "Awakening" taking place]." So, saying "We are afraid that you succumb to your emotions" actually means "We are afraid that you will cause another Impact", as "Awakening" is a prerequisite for an Impact occuring. That's why I said that I find it strange that you expect us to take "everything at face value", when there are clearly hidden reasons and unstated motivations behind their words. I'll apologize for the confusing formulation anyways.

I am sorry if that sounds patronizing, but I am honestly starting to feel like you are arguing in bad faith here.

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat May 02, 2020 6:37 am

Okay, to finally put to bed this whole “Misato should have explained things (better)” argument, lets break all of this down using facts, logic, and even math.

First, how long is it gonna take for Misato to explain all that Shinji discoverers throughout the film in one sitting? To find out, we need to timestamp the major exposition all events in the narrative. I’ve used the timeline in Khara’s official YT uploads as a source for the timestamps listed in my post (video now unavailable, timestamps may differ in the Bu-ray/DVD releases), so now it’s easier than ever for detractors to debunk me. :wink:

25:13 - 29:25
Misato explains Wille’s use of Eva Unit 01, DSS Choker purpose, time jump, what happened to Toji’s sister, The Curse of Eva.

30:53 - 32:00
Shinji is warned that Rei isn’t Rei, Wille isn’t Nerv, Nerv isn’t good, and that Evas are not his friends.

32:46 - 32:54
Ritsuko realizes for the first time that Shinji can also still be an impact trigger. (Can this be included? They didn’t even know this piece of information in order to tell Shinji until now, and even Shinji remains oblivious to this for quite some time. Ah, whatever. I’ll include it anyway in the spirit of being unfair to Wille.)

50:47 - 53:34
Kaworu explains N3I, and how it’s all might be Shinji’s fault. (While some of this information is useful for understanding lore, the specific claims Kaworu makes about Shinji’s involvement feel rather dubious, as they seem to contradict the ending of 2.22.)

55:49 - 58:15
Fuyutsuki explains where Evas come from, where Reis come from, and where Mom went to. (He’s even got a photo so Shinji can visually compare Yui and Rei.)

And you know what? Those spears at the end of the film seemed rather important in the grand scheme of things. Misato should have warned Shinji about those too.

1:03:00 - 1:03:55
Kaworu promises Shinji world changing spears.

1:12:53 - 1:13:21
Kaworu warns Shinji about false spears.

I tallied up all those timestamps, and Misato explaining things to Shinji would have taken 12 minutes, 9 seconds. But, that’s assuming that Shinji would believe her as soon as she said those things. (Misato did warn him about Rei, for example, and see how well that went?) So she probably needs to SHOW Shinji some of these things in person, a lot like Kaworu and Fuyutsuki did. This way, Misato’s explanation will be flawless.

So now Misato needs to infiltrate Nerv, steal Fuyutsuki’s photograph so she can show that to Shinji, break into the Ayanami series storage bin so she can show him the Rei clones, fly around the moon, and penetrate the barrier so she can show Shinji Lilith and the spears. Planning for as many variables as possible could take several hours, and execution could take up a few days. So we need to add, let’s say, 72 hours to the explanation? That’s a conservative number, I think. Also, infiltrating Nerv could cost several lives and damages. We need to account for those costs as well.

It would take Misato 72 hours, 12 min, 9 seconds, the lives of several innocent Wille crew members, and the untold destruction of weaponry and good will to successfully explain things to Shinji while citing her sources. (And those 9 seconds are really important. That’s like, all of Ritsuko realizing that Shinji is still an Impact Trigger.)

Now, let’s go back and review the film itself. Does Misato have 72:12:09 of uninterrupted time to dedicate to explaining things to Shinji? Can she afford the manpower and equipment usage? Can she risk the moral of her crew like that? (She’s already playing dangerous as it is, you know?) lol, maybe we’ll never know.

But, even assuming that Shinji believed everything that Misato said, she was still cut off from her 12 min, 09 sec explanation about 4 mins and 12 secs into it. And then everything changed forever after that. We logically can’t possibly blame that on her. The fact is, she tried and was interrupted by a life-or-death situation.
Last edited by FreakyFilmFan4ever on Wed May 13, 2020 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby Derantor » Sat May 02, 2020 11:29 am

@FreakyFilmFan4ever: Yepp, I agree. Since I was one of the people who argued against you, I'd like to explain myself, as I think we had a misunderstanding I feel responsible for and would like to remove.

To quote myself:
It's a fixed part of his journey and setup for the final movie, that's also why it doesn't matter what they did or did not tell him - as was made clear later on with Kaworu, where Shinji only listens to advice and absorbs information when it confirms his biases or promises him to fulfill his (impossible) dreams, ignoring everything else.

I am not complaining that they aren't telling him everything, (as you seem to think, given your "This will make the movie citizen Kane" line), as I don't think that would work.

To quote myself again:
Ok, if there indeed was no time, that still leaves the question as to why they chose to spend it the way they did, with a seemingly counterproductive approach to handling Shinji.

I admit, I was unsure about how much time they actually had, but that wasn't my actual issue to being with, as I don't think they need much time at all. My main issue always was the bolded part. That's why my proposed alterations to their first meeting include even less factual information than Shinji actually got, and why I added this explanation:
That's about 75 seconds of screentime, and contains pretty much everything I think is essential for Shinji to know. They don't have to tell him anything else for the whole movie. I don't think there's anything in it that isn't implied in the movie anyways, but some things, like there being a way for Shinji to earn their trust back, are made explicit.


What my alterations do is establish some ground rules for Shinji, so that he can hold onto something and build trust.
Misato: ... That is a question I can not answer right now. Just know that we do not trust you. We might trust you again, but if you want to have any chance at all, you will have to sit tight and do what we say.

I kept it a little vague, but she is telling him three things:
1. I can not answer that question right now. Two things are implied here: Time constraints, and that she will tell him later.
2. The trust part should be straight forward: We do not currently trust you, but we might do it again.
3. She then tells him exactly what he must do to earn their trust back.
Shinji is given framework to work with, with this one sentence (I assume he will not understand what is actually said here). It is competely detached from any specific plot points or background information. It works independent of their own characters or Shinji's specific issues as well, and I even said it can be delivered in a hostile manner, to obscure the meaning on first viewing.

I called the whole of WILLE stupid because every single one of them failed to follow this basic rule: Shinji is, essentially, a child, and children need a clear framework to function. WILLE obviously planned to talk to him - for whatever reason. My whole spiel about their options (like killing or sedating or decieving him) was to point to the fact that I don't think they have to talk to him, as I consider the attempt to be pretty futile and counterproductive to begin with. But they made that decision anyways, so they thought it worthwhile enough to try, which is why I questioned their intelligence when this apparently planned action (they set time aside to meet him, after all, and gave him Sakura as a companion) was missing such an important step.

There is another opportunity in the movie to show that they know what they are doing: Ritsuko says to Shinji that she knows this must be confusing. But instead of telling him what she will do next (namely, have Sakura start explaining things from the ground up), which would lessen his confusion, she asks Sakura to tell him that fourteen years have passed - which can only increase his confusion at that point, as he was apparently unaware of any time-skip to begin with.

The bit about Sakura not telling him he was at WILLE stems from this line of thinking about establishing basic rules of trust. Shinji asks a question, but WILLE went with the worst option of not answering at all. Even something like "I am not allowed to tell you" implies that somebody else might tell him - silence means he won't be getting answers to his questions. The reason I picked that scene is because it is the first interaction Shinji has with WILLE, and right from the start, they handle the situation wrong, if their goal was to ensure Shinji's cooperation (which I assume they want to do, as you and others pointed out that they indeed start to explain things). Which is why I questioned their intelligence, as they apparently are not able to choose an approach benefiting their stated goals (Save the world -> Kill Shinji) or implicit goals (Save the world AND save Shinji -> Talk to Shinji). It is painfully obvious, too, as Shinji is calm when they talk to him, no matter what they tell him (notice he reaction to being told he is punished) but gets anxious when they ignore him, which should make them reconsider their cold, distant and strictly factual approach.

Misato is another example of this, after Rei attacks. She tells Shinji "That is not Rei. Rei Ayanami is dead." Her obvious goal is to dissuade Shinji from going with Rei. They already told him that, though, so the approach they took has failed to work so far. After reiterating what was said, Misato fails to switch to another approach, which is not intelligent behaviour. Saying "That Rei is a clone" can only benefit WILLE in this situation, while there are no obvious downsides, so why she would not give Shinji that bit of information (whether he believes it or not) is beyond me - especially because it is implied that they intended to fill him in on everything anyways.

To reiterate, I don't think any of that would have worked on Shinji. I still think it would have benefited the movie to choose a different approach regarding the interactions of WILLE and Shinji, as instead of an exploration of failed communication, it reads like plain refusal of communication to me (even though they do talk), as the mistakes are so painfully obvious and avoidable (the biggest offenders are the repeated occasions where characters stay silent completely or do not answer direct questions with expected/obvious/fitting answers). In a sense, the movie feels contrived, as it is constructed to achieve exactly a situation where these obvious mistakes are seemingly unavoidable, but that only becomes apparent with careful study - which harms the movie, because the first impression doesn't encourage a deeper look. Which is also a reason for why people complain that "Everybody is stupid": At surface level, everything is really easy, thus any explanation we can come up with later feels needlessly contrived and complicated in contrast, and doesn't even explain away all the mistakes commited while simultaneously making the plot contrievances obvious.

To bring this back to the actual topic of the thread: My guess is that the "Why didn't they tell him anything?" complaints have this "They are talking to him in the wrong way" complaint at their base. I mean, it is obvious that they are talking to him. To claim that they do not tell him anything is plain wrong. A wish for a more detailed explanation is nothing but a wish for WILLE to change tactics if their current approach (giving sparse, even though factually accurate information) is failing them.

I am sorry that I expressed myself less clearly before. Ironically enough, this discussion itself is a repeat of what happened with Shinji and Wille, as I failed to explain things as I should have and also failed to understand what you were saying. Which is why I hesitated to participate in this discussion in the first place: I am not able to express myself as clearly as I want, and fail to get many nuances of the english language, as it isn't my mother tongue. Which is also why I, if I were in WILLE's shoes, would have sent somebody who is good at communicating to interact with Shinji instead of going myself, as going myself would be an easily avoidable mistake - and if that option wasn't there, I'd just have sedated him an not talked to him at all.

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby ErgoProxy » Sat May 02, 2020 12:29 pm

They sent Sakura.

Okay, my two cents I'm not happy to throw, but whatever.

The problem which is addressed in this thread was encountered long time ago by the generation of our grandfathers. They were fighting a total war of attrition and they were constantly pushed to report what they are doing now and what's their status. So they eventually came up with a one-word solution: snafu. Situation Normal: All Fucked Up.

And this is exactly what can be seen in the movie. This is also exactly what you should expect (and rapidly adapt to) if you were thrown in between of a motley crew manning the flagship of an uprising - and preparing right now to do some risky procedure they had never done before, but they are resolute to do it, despite of condition red.

And that's what I love 3.33 for (and the original Ghostbusters movie BTW). This is not yet another cliche show made to entertain or please anyone out there. This is a fucking documentary. Set in a fictional world. With the fictional people displaying the most probable behaviour, given the terms they have to cope with.

If you're not an escapist, you should have no problem with that. But if you are an escapist, then what's your problem? Shit got real?
In my spirit lies my faith
Stronger than love and with me it will be
For always

- Mike Wyzgowski & Sagisu Shiro

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby Derantor » Sat May 02, 2020 2:49 pm

Since you are not happy to throw your two cents, and I am not happy with my behaviour in this thread, can I suggest that we don't start another discussion or take it elsewehre? My last post was meant as an explanation and an apology to FreakyFilmFan4ever, which I chose to do in public as the argument itself happened in public. I think it would be best if I refrain from posting in this topic, as the actual topic is already done and I do not want to drag this situation out even more. I apologize again for derailing this thread and arguing in a bad manner.

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat May 02, 2020 8:22 pm

Thanks for the apology, I appreciate it. To be honest, I’m used to discussions far worse than this. (You should read some of the threads debating the quality of 2.0. Holy Christ, some of those threads made everyone unhappy.) This discussion was actually kinda fun and challenging for me.

Just so I’m also clear, my last post was a general post directed at the OP’s question, not directed at anyone in particular. (I probably also should have made that more clear, and I’m sorry.) And it’s totally okay to hate 3.0 or whatever. 3.0 is a very aggressive story about confusion and loneliness. The filmmakers did a very thorough, detailed, and extreme job writing it as such, but all that effort and talent was poured into a film that’s supposed to make people feel confused and lonely. It’s more than okay to not like a film for those reasons. But I just wanted to make a post detailing the reasons why, diegetically speaking, Misato did what she did. That way anyone who comes across this thread in the future has some sort of answer to their questions, which will most likely come from confusion and loneliness.
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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby Derantor » Sat May 02, 2020 10:41 pm

@FreakyFilmFan4ever: I am glad to hear that. ^_^ And yes, I took your post as directed at nobody in particular, I just saw an opportunity to explain that I realized we were talking past each other as we were arguing completely different points. So, no ill feelings on my part. I'd be happy to discuss the merits of 3.0 and its execution at a later date, when I get around to bring my arguments into a somewhat coherent form. I can only say that it really is a challenge arguing with an Eva veteran, so, next time, I'll hopefully be more prepared.


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