Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby 93rd » Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:53 pm

I can only assume it would've been helpful to explain the situation instead of giving him the cold shoulder. I read in the FAQ about 3.0 that Misato's lack of conversation with Shinji was due to the fact that she was a captain, but that doesn't mean that someone else couldn't have done it.

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby Reichu » Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:14 am

They did start explaining things. Ornette did a thorough breakdown of the first section of the movie here that goes into this:

post/742030/30-In-Shinji-Shoes-Shinji-and-Willes-perspectives/#742030

The FAQ should probably be updated to account for the common "They didn't tell Shinji anything! :| " complaint, but I'm personally pretty burned out on the whole thing. Some other posts I was able to find quickly that address the topic (the threads themselves are probably worth a look-through since they touch upon the general Shinji/Wille clusterfuck):

post/673244/How-is-Shinji-responsible-for-anything-Free-Will-in-NTE/#673244
post/853840/Impact-trigger-discrepancy/#853840
post/664812/The-Moral-of-Rebuild/#664812

Here's a thread that discusses the Misato/Shinji relationship, as well.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby Derantor » Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:12 am

View Original Post93rd wrote:I can only assume it would've been helpful to explain the situation instead of giving him the cold shoulder.

That would have made the whole movie pointless. It is basically an extended version of the "You misunderstood from the very beginning" line of EoE, with Shinji trapped in his own view, assuming things and acting on incomplete information to achieve his selfish, childish goals, because he can not grasp the reality of others. It's a fixed part of his journey and setup for the final movie, that's also why it doesn't matter what they did or did not tell him - as was made clear later on with Kaworu, where Shinji only listens to advice and absorbs information when it confirms his biases or promises him to fulfill his (impossible) dreams, ignoring everything else.

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby Blockio » Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:24 pm

I also wish that Wille would have tried to explain the situation to Shinji although with the rest of the movie playing out as is; that would have made it clear to more people that Shinji really is the one to blame and not that the world has conspired against innocent puppy boy
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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:09 pm

I've always been of the mindset that they would have eventually told Shinji everything. It's A LOT to take and Misato knowing Shinji personally is aware that he would need time to process things because he'd blame himself and go into a self hatred spiral. Shinji would have been slowly educated on everything piecemeal most likely once they reached their base or wherever it was safe.

But, before they could do that Rei, "the one" he threw the world aside for in the last movie, shows up to take him away.

Funnily enough, later in 3.0 Shinji is given exactly what vociferous critics of the film argue Misato should have done. Kaworu & Fuyutsuki separately pull Shinji aside and tell him the facts about what happened to the world and what the deal with Rei is and he is destroyed. Those info dumps leave him with a desperate need to undo the wrongs he feels responsible for and that is what leads him to latch onto a vague idea of redemption - get the spears and everything is okay again - and he is willing to push through to attain that goal no matter what else he is told.

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby Derantor » Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:42 pm

@Gendo'sPapa: Except that what Kaworu and Fuyutsuki told him was designed to push him to act according to their plan and wasn't the truth at all ("What a wretched role I play" - Fuyutsuki). Unless the after credits scene of 2.0 is not canon anymore, Shinji's near third impact made the immediate vicinity of the Geofront a little dusty (didn't even kill Misato who was standing maybe a mile away), which is a far cry from the global holocaust Kaworu asserts he initiated.

Q-Misato obviously doesn't know Shinji well - if she did, she'd known that he fears rejection most of all, yet that's precisely what she did with him: Reject him outright, in the coldest manner possible, without a hint of softness or compassion. Clearly, his wellbeing was not their priority here, otherwise they wouldn't have had Asuka stomp in or put an explosive collar around his neck and told him they will kill him if he acts up. He also doesn't need to blame himself: "That is your punishment, and a sign of our mistrust in you."

@Blockio: Shinji can be guilty and the world can conspire against him at the same time - and it did.

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby Reichu » Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:19 pm

View Original PostDerantor wrote:Except that what Kaworu and Fuyutsuki told him was designed to push him to act according to their plan and wasn't the truth at all ("What a wretched role I play" - Fuyutsuki).

Where are you getting the idea that Fuyutsuki wasn't being perfectly honest? We see him alone with Gendo acting frustrated with the man for not saying anything to his son. Fuyutsuki has zero reason to put on a show for his own co-conspirator -- that scene is showing us how he really feels. He's playing a "wretched role" because telling Shinji all of these awful things that nobody else would was left to him.

Some of the things that Kaworu says are iffy, but the movie doesn't make ANY sense at all if everything Kaworu says is simply dismissed as a lie. He's one of the most important sources of information we have, and most of what he says can be put to quite effective use in deciphering the movie's various mysteries. It's best to assume what Fuyutsuki and Kaworu say is true EXCEPT when there's obvious conflict with something we unambiguously know. "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater."
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby 93rd » Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:46 pm

View Original PostDerantor wrote:That would have made the whole movie pointless. It is basically an extended version of the "You misunderstood from the very beginning" line of EoE, with Shinji trapped in his own view, assuming things and acting on incomplete information to achieve his selfish, childish goals, because he can not grasp the reality of others. It's a fixed part of his journey and setup for the final movie, that's also why it doesn't matter what they did or did not tell him - as was made clear later on with Kaworu, where Shinji only listens to advice and absorbs information when it confirms his biases or promises him to fulfill his (impossible) dreams, ignoring everything else.

I guess that makes sense. The entirety of the movie was pretty mind boggling, hard to process on a first watch I guess. Thanks for explaining things dudemangs.

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby Derantor » Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:23 pm

Reichu wrote: "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater."

Guess I have to plead guilty on that.

I just don't trust either Kaworu or Fuyutsuki as far as I can throw them. One is Gendo's and/or Yui's henchman, the other an angel. "Not the truth at all" was too harshly formulated, but whatever truths they told Shinji served a purpose, as both had their own (hidden) goals and agendas. Fuyutsuki's line "What a wretched role I play. I hope this will suffice, Yui", combined with his snake eyes when he is observing Shinji, gauging his reaction, gave me the impression that he despised having to go along with her plan and setting Shinji up somehow, but still did it. With Kaworu, I was mostly referring to his lie regarding Third Impact.

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby Señor Sepia » Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:03 am

The movie is just really bad and the characters are now angry stupid people for the shake of moving the plot forwards.

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby Blockio » Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:45 am

View Original PostSeñor Sepia wrote:The movie is just really bad and the characters are now angry stupid people for the shake of moving the plot forwards.

If you had actually read any of the previous replies to this thread, you would have encountered more than enough evidence to the contrary
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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby Señor Sepia » Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:57 am

View Original PostBlockio wrote:If you had actually read any of the previous replies to this thread, you would have encountered more than enough evidence to the contrary

Honestly i don't think the replies in this thread are evidence of anything, but everyone can believe whatever they want.

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:35 pm

Would you like (preferably in a new thread, I guess) to explain why you think the movie is really bad? And maybe try to counter the points made in other threads by people saying why they think it's really good. Then we'd have something to discuss.
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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby intermediateO » Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:56 pm

View Original PostSeñor Sepia wrote:The movie is just really bad and the characters are now angry stupid people for the sake of moving the plot forwards.


Whoa! You can't just say that!
(Though, I agree. :D )

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:48 pm

Of course they (and you) can say just that. But for your opinion to have any effect, for people who feel the opposite just as strongly to take notice of it, some explanation supporting the view would be helpful.
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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:37 pm

I feel like we’ve stopped discussing why Shinji wasn’t told anything, but I’ll answer the question anyway.

Diegeticly speaking, it’s because they lacked the opportunity. At first Misato was pulled away from briefing Shinji because Nerv was attacking. Then when Misato and Ritsuko finally got around to briefing Shinji, there were both pulled away from briefing Shinji halfway through because Nerv was attacking. (Again.) Kaworu explained only a little bit to Shinji (and maybe even honestly? We’re not sure?) because it was either that or play more piano.

Non-diegeticly speaking, I think Anno wanted to convey a hectic environment (Wille) where people were trying to stop Shinji from being the most important thing ever, and then contrast that with a more empty environment (Nerv) where Shinji becomes one of the most important things ever. The hectic state of Wille meant there was little time for chatter or debriefings, and the emptiness of Nerv results in very little motivation to talk about anything for very long. (Unless someone teaches you piano, that is.) I guess you could consider 3.33 the fall after Shinji’s pride at the end of 2.22. I personally think it’s some very good stuff and an simply fascinated by how the film weaves these themes in its narrative in a rather unconventional way.

As for the characters being stupid, I personally haven’t tested their IQs, nor have I read any results of any IQ test any of them may have taken. If anyone has some info on that, please feel free to let me know. :wink:
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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby Derantor » Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:16 am

FreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Diegeticly speaking, it’s because they lacked the opportunity.

The very fist thing that happens when he is back is this exchange:
Sakura: Do you understand what I am saying?
Shinji: Where am I?
Sakura: He is able to talk. His conciousness has returned.

So, contrary to there being no opportunity to tell him "You are at WILLE", there was a deliberate choice not to tell him. This theme continues throughout the movie: Shinji gets dehumanized completely. He is ignored, not addressed by name, etc. Again, a deliberate choice, not something forced onto them beceause of time constraints (they might have a good reason to do all that, but that's besides the point). Then the attack happens, then a cut, and Shinji is in some cell. Then Ritsuko explains a few things to him. The amount of time passing between the first and second attack is unclear, as far as I can tell, as is the amount of time between his recovery from space and the installation of Unit 01 as the engine of the WUNDER.

FreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:As for the characters being stupid

Well ... "Shinji, we do not need you. You are not important to us anymore. You will not pilot Eva ever again. Just do nothing. Oh, but we tell you exactly where Unit 01 is, if you ever feel the need to pilot something. Also, this choker. If you succumb to your emotions while piloting, we will kill you. But you will not pilot anyway, right? Except we expect that you do, hence the choker. ;) But you can't, because your synchrate is 0.000000000%, but you activated Eva 01, so you cannot pilot anyway, but you can if you want to."

A simple test to see if they are stupid: Do they take actions which further their stated goals or don't they? Let's take a relatively clear cut thing: Misato saying "Don't do anything." Ok. If I put myself in her shoes, I can think of a few things they could have done. Hook him up on VR-Anime where he sees nothing but Rei all day, for example. Keep him sedated. Tell him that Unit 01 is lost, and that they'd love for him to do something, but he cant. Shoot him. Lobotomize him. Give him some pointless job pulling levers which don't do anything. Give him an actual job which doesn't include piloting but makes him feel important. Get a little creative: Tell him they are trying to get Rei back, but for that to succeed, he has to do this very specific thing (which in reality does nothing). Tell him "We mistrust you, but you can earn our trust back if you do x y and z", where x y and z all amount to "doing nothing counterproductive" like running away to NERV. (Granted, none of that has any chance of working, since there is the narrative need for Shinji to act as counterproductive as possible (Which is also the reason why they do not tell him "anything"), so the end result would just be the same.)

Instead they indirectly tell him that there is a way for him to pilot and where Unit 01 is, treat him like a subhuman and expect that he will just sit still because they say so. Whatever their reasons or motivations for that are, it is still counterproductive and stupid. Not being able to control their own emotions is understandable but stupid. Telling him he gets punished but not what for is cruel and stupid. Telling him he gets punished to begin with is stupid if you want him to sit still, as he will naturally try to escape punishment. Giving him every reason to escape by treating him like shit is stupid. The "There just wasn't time!" excuse doesn't count here, since the time they used to treat him the way they did could have been used to treat him differently instead. The "Shinji just misunderstood them" excuse doesn't count either, unless what we are shown is literally Shinji's warped internal perspective, where Asuka says "Oh, Shinji, I missed you so much!" in reality, but he understands "I hate you, stupid brat!", where he asks "Are you really Misato?" and she says "Yes, I am", but he doesn't hear her because he went deaf for a second.

So no matter what their excuse is, or how intelligent they theoretically are, they act stupid, which makes them stupid. Oh yeah, and Shinji is stupid too, as is Kaworu:
Kaworu: Yo, dude, those are not the lances we need.
Shinji: For real? Nah, let me just ignore that and go through with it anyway. <- stupid
Kaworu: Shinji, please stop.
Shinji: Nope. <- stupid
Kaworu: ...
Shinji: Hm ... on second thought ... why wouldn't it work?
Kaworu: ... <- stupid
Shinji: Dude, talk to me!
Kaworu: ... <- stupid
Shinji: Hm, ok, here I go. <- stupid
Kaworu: Edit: Ah, now that you have made the mistake, let me take control of Unit 13 to pierce us with the lances and self destruct to stop you, which I COULD have done before but chose not to. Because I couldn't act before, I will now take control. I could have still talked to you, but I chose not to. <- stupid or plain evil
Shinji: ... really dude?
Kawuro: *splat*
Last edited by Derantor on Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby Reichu » Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:19 am

Derantor wrote:Kaworu: Ah, now that you have made the mistake, let me take control of Unit 13 to pierce us with the lances and self destruct to stop you, which I COULD have done before but chose not to. <- stupid or plain evil

Well, about that...
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby Derantor » Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:31 am

@Reichu: Ok, point taken, I'll cross it off the list.

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Re: Why didn't Misato (or anyone) tell Shinji anything in 3.0?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:49 am

View Original PostDerantor wrote:The very fist thing that happens when he is back is this exchange:

Shinji is having a preliminary phycological and physical screening performed by Sakura in order to identify whether or not he was, in fact, Shinji. Disclosing important information to someone who may not be the individual to which you would like to disclose said information could prove detrimental. (Which kinda goes against your stupid “stupid” claim about the characters.) Seeing as how Rei clones keep popping up all over the place, and how Wille (or us audience members) cannot be sure what exactly happened to Shinji at the end of 2.22, these preventative measures appear to be necessary in order to make sure the right information is directed at the correct individual.

Also, Sakura isn’t authorized to tell Shinji anything, nor is she in a non-professional relationship with Shinji that would incentivize her to disclose unauthorized information to him. She’s clearly accompanying the security team guarding Shinji. Pointing to Sakura and asking why she didn’t tell Shinji delicate information is like pointing to the security guard of a hospital and asking him why he didn’t tell you that you have cancer. I mean, that would be kinda stupid. (Again, going against your stupid “stupid” argument for the characters.)
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