What are your guys' thoughts on Shinji & Kaworu's Relationship (Episode 24 of the OG Series)

[天使 | Nyo | 天使]

[DISCLAIMER: I'm only discussing Episode 24 and other moments from the OG Series/Movies, I have not seen the Rebuilds, but I am aware of Evangelion 3.0 and its own relationship with Shinji and Kaworu, I just don't want any of that stuff spoiled.)

So...I recently looked around on some old forum posts (and yes I'm aware that this is VERY OLD by this point, http://www.kaworu.com/kaworu/controversy/) and it got me wondering what people think of the relationship between Shinji and Kaworu as seen in Episode 24. I personally see it as well...them both loving each other (though probably more on Kaworu's side than Shinji's.) BUT, that's not what all fans believe from the source I linked above and I understand that. I've already sort of talked about the dialogue on here (though accidentally from the Netflix General Discussions, again, apologies for that) and I just see it (in ALL versions) as a Kaworu confessing to him...though I may just be obsessing over the fictional shipping of the two and I could just be rambling.

So basically I'm asking these questions when I ask one question. Confusing I know. :

1. Do you think the two are..well..gay and why?

2. What do you think the actions/dialogue seen in the episode speak about both Kaworu and Shinji as...well lovers?

3. Do you think their relationship is genuine?

4. In EoE, the Giant Rei turns into Kaworu to comfort Shinji after he has a breakdown upon seeing her, and since we have seen that the different Reis turn into the person the (victim?) trusts the most, does this mean Shinji saw Kaworu as "the one" basically?

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I honestly couldn't know for sure, but I just like to think they love each other...spices up the show a bit if you know what I mean.

[jcmoorehead]

Generally I try to avoid much shipping discussion/drama, mostly because I'm primarily an AsuShin shipper and I've seen the way some people can be towards that online and also because it gets a bit cyclical but here are my thoughts.

1. Do you think the two are..well..gay and why?
No I don't think they're gay. I do however think that Kaworu is most likely to be Pansexual and Shinji is Bisexual. I think Kaworu is likely to be Pansexual because he is an alien being and it is mentioned that he sort of embodies that love between humans. I think because of that gender would not be a boundary/issue for Kaworu whatsoever. I think if it had been Asuka in that episode, he'd have acted the same way towards her.

For Shinji being bisexual, throughout the series we do see clear evidence of his attraction towards woman. We see it towards Asuka, Misato and Rei but it's hard to really deny how he acts towards Kaworu as well. Being honest I think Shinji is at a stage where he is still figuring out his sexuality. He still see's himself as pretty worthless and unlovable in the series so I don't know how much he thinks about relationships/sexuality but I think he's likely to be bisexual.

2. What do you think the actions/dialogue seen in the episode speak about both Kaworu and Shinji as...well lovers?

I think it's difficult to say because we don't know too much of Kaworu's true feelings. We know he is there for a particular purpose and a lot of that does unfortunately involve manipulating Shinji. I do however thing there is a genuineness in how he feels towards Shinji, some of it is possibly religious analogue, he is seen as a 'Jesus'-esque figure so his love for Shinji could be his love towards humanity in general. Also we don't know just how much SEELE has fed him too.

I think Shinji definitely feels something, we see him blush so much we see him smile genuinely and it is nice. It's hard for me to really see too much into it though because it's 21 minutes and even beyond that it's pretty limited.

3. Do you think their relationship is genuine?
I think in terms of the episode their relationship doesn't move beyond friendship. I think there is a genuine friendship there. I think Kaworu was sent with a purporse, to maybe manipulate Shinji into a certain position but I think by the end of the episode he regrets betraying him which is why he lets humanity live on.

4. In EoE, the Giant Rei turns into Kaworu to comfort Shinji after he has a breakdown upon seeing her, and since we have seen that the different Reis turn into the person the (victim?) trusts the most, does this mean Shinji saw Kaworu as "the one" basically?

I think Kaworu certainly has a calming influence on Shinji at this point but I don't think it means Shinji see's Kaworu as 'The One', I think it's a bit of a mixture of Shinji having some feelings for Kaworu but also Shinji still feeling a lot of guilt at killing Kaworu so Kaworu appearing has a calming effect, rather than the creepy giant Rei.

I think if Shinji saw Kaworu as 'The One' he likely would have ran to Kaworu first in the Instrumentality sequence for help. Instead he jumped straight to Asuka. Not necessarily because he thinks she is 'The One' but I think he's just scrambling for friendly faces and someone to help him at that point.

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For what its worth I think the ship is valid but I ultimately think Evangelion isn't supposed to have a defined ship as such. I think it's supposed to show possibilities maybe and we as fans can run with it if we desire it or not at all. So for me I think AsuShin is as valid as KawoShin which is as valid as nothing for him.

(Worth noting too, that I also like the idea of Asu-Kawo-Shin too :P)

[天使 | Nyo | 天使]

Generally I try to avoid much shipping discussion/drama, mostly because I'm primarily an AsuShin shipper and I've seen the way some people can be towards that online and also because it gets a bit cyclical but here are my thoughts.

1. Do you think the two are..well..gay and why?
No I don't think they're gay. I do however think that Kaworu is most likely to be Pansexual and Shinji is Bisexual. I think Kaworu is likely to be Pansexual because he is an alien being and it is mentioned that he sort of embodies that love between humans. I think because of that gender would not be a boundary/issue for Kaworu whatsoever. I think if it had been Asuka in that episode, he'd have acted the same way towards her.

For Shinji being bisexual, throughout the series we do see clear evidence of his attraction towards woman. We see it towards Asuka, Misato and Rei but it's hard to really deny how he acts towards Kaworu as well. Being honest I think Shinji is at a stage where he is still figuring out his sexuality. He still see's himself as pretty worthless and unlovable in the series so I don't know how much he thinks about relationships/sexuality but I think he's likely to be bisexual.

2. What do you think the actions/dialogue seen in the episode speak about both Kaworu and Shinji as...well lovers?

I think it's difficult to say because we don't know too much of Kaworu's true feelings. We know he is there for a particular purpose and a lot of that does unfortunately involve manipulating Shinji. I do however thing there is a genuineness in how he feels towards Shinji, some of it is possibly religious analogue, he is seen as a 'Jesus'-esque figure so his love for Shinji could be his love towards humanity in general. Also we don't know just how much SEELE has fed him too.

I think Shinji definitely feels something, we see him blush so much we see him smile genuinely and it is nice. It's hard for me to really see too much into it though because it's 21 minutes and even beyond that it's pretty limited.

3. Do you think their relationship is genuine?
I think in terms of the episode their relationship doesn't move beyond friendship. I think there is a genuine friendship there. I think Kaworu was sent with a purporse, to maybe manipulate Shinji into a certain position but I think by the end of the episode he regrets betraying him which is why he lets humanity live on.

4. In EoE, the Giant Rei turns into Kaworu to comfort Shinji after he has a breakdown upon seeing her, and since we have seen that the different Reis turn into the person the (victim?) trusts the most, does this mean Shinji saw Kaworu as "the one" basically?

I think Kaworu certainly has a calming influence on Shinji at this point but I don't think it means Shinji see's Kaworu as 'The One', I think it's a bit of a mixture of Shinji having some feelings for Kaworu but also Shinji still feeling a lot of guilt at killing Kaworu so Kaworu appearing has a calming effect, rather than the creepy giant Rei.

I think if Shinji saw Kaworu as 'The One' he likely would have ran to Kaworu first in the Instrumentality sequence for help. Instead he jumped straight to Asuka. Not necessarily because he thinks she is 'The One' but I think he's just scrambling for friendly faces and someone to help him at that point.

---

For what its worth I think the ship is valid but I ultimately think Evangelion isn't supposed to have a defined ship as such. I think it's supposed to show possibilities maybe and we as fans can run with it if we desire it or not at all. So for me I think AsuShin is as valid as KawoShin which is as valid as nothing for him.

(Worth noting too, that I also like the idea of Asu-Kawo-Shin too :P)

Amazingly well-spoken response. Here's what my other thoughts on the whole thing:

Personally, for me, I agree and actually connect pretty closely with the Shinji on the whole "bisexual" part (I've also seen the moments where he's shown attraction to woman, most notably with Episode 05 when Shinji goes to deliver Rei's card...but it gets a little...funky. ) I'm still figuring it out myself and maybe that's why Shinji's my favorite character out of everyone on the show,), he's confused and is trying to find himself not only in others but also in himself, he wants to be worth something wants to "be able to attract the attention of others" (according to the ADV Dub...please don't kill me ) EoE, does show Shinji is quite uh...well there's something with him and Asuka for sure. He just wanted someone to be with because pretty much everyone he was friends with (Kaworu, Tohji, and Kensuke) were gone, so to see him so desperate to Asuka is definitely something interesting, considering the two didn't originally get along the best...and at the end of the movie that's sort of still the case, that or he just wants to confirm people still want to reject and hate him, the sexuality stuff makes sense too, since his self-destructive nature I guess reflects how others "love" and "treat" him.

Also kind of noteworthy (at least to me) was Kaworu talking about how Shinji was afraid to open himself up to others because he's afraid of intimacy, he's afraid of people liking him, and he doesn't know how others would treat him. The line of him saying that he was "born to meet him" was also pretty brilliant because not only is it a romantic-sounding line, but it also adknowleges Kaworu knew what SEELE was planning to do with him.

It's rather unfortunate just how fast the relationship and ended for Shinji and Kaworu (granted again, we got Evangelion 3.0, but I still need to watch 2.0 first, I've only seen 1.0...and that ending alone got me hyped to watch the next ones! However, I still gotta watch 1.0 in Dub, since I watched the OG Series in both Sub and Dub. )

[jcmoorehead]

Totally get that on connecting with Shinji thing, there are a lot of aspects in Shinji that I see in myself. With the finding yourself thing, it is something that takes time. I kinda view the series/films as Shinji's journey to just accept that he is who he is and he has worth and value and is capable of being loved and of loving.

I think post series would be when he starts to establish things like his sexuality, or perhaps even gender. A lot of people don't really discover themselves in those regards until later, I know I didn't really accept my bisexuality until my early 20s.

---

Yeah, i know what you mean about how quick the relationship ended, obviously it had to go that way because of who/what Kaworu was but I think it would have been good to maybe have him interact a bit more with Shinji and the others. I know we get that in the manga but if I'm being honest, I'm not the biggest fan of Kaworu in the manga.

Enjoy watching the remaining Rebuilds, I really enjoyed them.

[chee]

Extremely Gay, even with the Netflix subs

that framing and body language don't lie

[天使 | Nyo | 天使]

Extremely Gay, even with the Netflix subs

that framing and body language don't lie

True, Netflix couldn't take away THAT part.

[Kendrix]

I think there's outright confirmation from the cast and crew that there was very much intended to be a romantic component there, regardless of what contemporary label one wishes to use.

The central themes of the episode were basically Shinji's desire for love and acceptance (of any form) and how it related to his self-isolation, as well as his self-hatred coming to a boiling point. Kaworu's basically designed so that, in Anno's words, "Shinji couldn't help but develop a complex", in terms of the story, this serves to get Shinji to the breaking point, to create a crisis that would bring all his inner struggles to the boil

Also it has been said that they made Kaworu a boy because he's Shinji's 'negative' or Shadow, like the ideal of what he would want to be like, so they're the same sex to highlight the parallel. "He's a sci fi/fantasy creature" doesn't cut it as Shinji is still very much human. I've yet to see anyone argue that a boy having a crush on a feminine-looking robot or alien isn't heterosexual.That said It should be noted that this doesn't negate or overshadow both their friendship an the philosophical dimensions of the matter.

You often see a hero who encounters a villain who is sort of just like them and challenges their heroic image of themselves by having similar bad qualities - but Shinji's self image is highly negative, so his shadow, while still technically an antagonist, would be positive.
He's notably artsy, philosophic and kind, which are good qualities that Shinji aspires toward and reaches in his best moments, but unlike Shinji he doesn't have the fear of rejection holding him back. And obviously someone who shares the same values and can impress you with qualities that you value can be attractive. If you like music you might be impressed by a musical guy. If you value kindness you're gonna like nice ppl (especially if you're trying to be nice in the hope that others will be nice to you and have hangups about communicating what you want or need)

So he's this great, perfect super-likeable dude (at least for Anno's / Shinji's definition of great and super-likeable, obviously not everyone will agree) and then Shinji has to go and kill him for suvival, exascerbating many of the the issues that Shinji's been struggling with since day #1:
- Feeling unworthy - He sees Kaworu as much better and now he's alive instead of him
- fear of opening up, since it comes with the possible consequence of being hurt or hurting others. He was really glad to receive the approval and kindness he always wanted, but the end result was pain since they were fated to fight. If they never became friends they would be strangers and it wouldn't hurt as much - but now they have to fight a friend and it hurts.
- the occasional unfairness of the world and the pragmatism it necessitates. the inevitability that not only will you be hurt but sometimes you will hurt others

Shinji tends to be reluctant in interactions since he's afraid of getting hurt. Kaworu, by contrast, wanted to get to know the people who were supposedly his enemies (perhaps in parallel to how Shinji expresses curiosity about the angels in ep 11) and forms a friendship even though he knew it wouldn't last - Shinji's a bit hurt by this immediately after the reveal thinking he was "betrayed" yet again but it the end he can't deny that he cared about Kaworu and can't rationalize that away by saying at he was an enemy

While I see how some might find it interesting to consider the possibility that he was manipulative evil or just operating on blue& orange morality from a plot or sci fi concept perspevtive, I dont think thats the intended read.
They'd say that having him be what he seems would be an easy escape i there wasn't a catch but there already IS a catch namely that he dies, and I'd argue that "he wasn't good/desirable to begin with" an easy escape from the conundrum of having killed a good person out of self-preservation. (or, in Rebuild, caused their death through a fuckup) Unlike the Touji situation, Shinji can't blame this one on Gendo.


Even "Evil Manga Kaworu" was characterized more as an attempt to make him less mature compared to the very dignified, in control character we see in the series who, by virtue of showing up in only one episode, was a static character.


Thus Shinji's forced to once and for all confront the questions that are central to either version of the ending: Does he have a right to be here? And can he come to terms with knowing that interacting with others always comes with the chance of being hurt and/or fucking up?


Also I think GNR turning into Kaworu was like the counterpart of the various floating Reis turning into Misato, Ritsuko etc. - Not Necessary "the one" but rather the one person feel most calm around and lower their mental defenses (equivalent to AT fields)

It couldn't have been any of the others as a big part of what was going on at this point was that Shinji was too afraid to face them/ no longer sure how to deal with them and social interaction in general. This is expounded upon at lenght in the pre-instrumentality scene. Kaworu's just kinda the most reassuring/disarming also it's a relief from his guilt over killing him

[天使 | Nyo | 天使]

Excessive quote of above post removed -- Admin

A fantastic analysis indeed. But personally I was more asking more about the show (though I understood why you used the Manga Kaworu, I just haven't read it yet and had to do some research before replying.)

What I like about them personally is the fact the whole "Kaworu being very much like a fold to Shinji" sort of thing, it's exactly like how Rei is a fold to Asuka, it's genius really in how all these characters contrast one another while still being similar with their situations (the problems they face mentally throughout the entire series), the characters just react to these problems differently because they're all very different types of people, which obviously makes sense since the characters are meant to be as down to earth and real as possible (which is primarily why I personally love the show so much now.)

The review with Anno on Kaworu was GREAT in my opinion, explaining not only what Kaworu was mean't to do, but more importantly, why, I mean, it's coming from the man himself after all.