Why do people (or maybe you personally) dislike episodes 25 & 26 (the TV Episodes) so much?

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Why do people (or maybe you personally) dislike episodes 25 & 26 (the TV Episodes) so much?

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Postby 天使 | Nyo | 天使 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:13 am

I personally didn't find these episodes all that bad, I actually really like the abstract look and deep meaning these episodes had going for them. I mean, I know people would be mad because they wanted an "epic final battle" to end the show off with a bang or something, but I like this stuff too. I mean, End of Evangelion exist so...I guess people can perceive whatever ending they want (though personally I prefer EoE for sure. :shifty: )

What are your guys' thoughts?
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Re: Why do people (or maybe you personally) dislike episodes 25 & 26 (the TV Episodes) so much?

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Postby Luigi shinji » Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:53 pm

I don't hate ep25 and 26 but they're definietly not as memorabol as EOE. I think people hate it becouse its give them a pretty big anit climax.

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Re: Why do people (or maybe you personally) dislike episodes 25 & 26 (the TV Episodes) so much?

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Postby Reichu » Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:52 pm

I mostly "dislike" EoTV in the context of people claiming that it's the only ending that's needed and EoE is shit. Taken completely on their own merits, I do indeed think the TV episodes are pretty hot garbage; as part of a greater whole, they're fine, even interesting. They're a fundamentally incomplete ending that completely betrays NGE's highly interwoven nature, and has helped perpetuate the unfortunate meme that anything other than what a story is "fundamentally about" (whatever the hell that means) is just "window dressing". In other words, there is nothing in NGE that's actually important other than people standing/sitting there, telling the camera how they feel. I actively despise this sentiment and find it, at BEST, thoroughly misguided, as it devalues most of the highly intricate art of storytelling. If NGE had wanted to be nothing more than people in folding chairs telling us how they feel, then it should never have taken on all of these other premises and dimensions; there's nothing admirable in utterly failing to bring closure to your own work, just because your failure happens to be "avant-garde" in nature.
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Re: Why do people (or maybe you personally) dislike episodes 25 & 26 (the TV Episodes) so much?

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Postby 天使 | Nyo | 天使 » Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:13 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:I mostly "dislike" EoTV in the context of people claiming that it's the only ending that's needed and EoE is shit. Taken completely on their own merits, I do indeed think the TV episodes are pretty hot garbage; as part of a greater whole, they're fine, even interesting. They're a fundamentally incomplete ending that completely betrays NGE's highly interwoven nature, and has helped perpetuate the unfortunate meme that anything other than what a story is "fundamentally about" (whatever the hell that means) is just "window dressing". In other words, there is nothing in NGE that's actually important other than people standing/sitting there, telling the camera how they feel. I actively despise this sentiment and find it, at BEST, thoroughly misguided, as it devalues most of the highly intricate art of storytelling. If NGE had wanted to be nothing more than people in folding chairs telling us how they feel, then it should never have taken on all of these other premises and dimensions; there's nothing admirable in utterly failing to bring closure to your own work, just because your failure happens to be "avant-garde" in nature.


I absolutely agree! Really to me, it comes down to just the fact that EoE exists that makes the ending of the original episodes kind of redundant or at worst (at least to me) unnecessary. The last couple of episodes also contradict in tone compared to the rest of the series in my opinion, which makes them also a little weird to watch for me.


BUT, I do like these episodes in terms of visuals and writing, I actually liked a lot of deep psychological stuff that people didn't really "understand." Especially for someone like me who relates to a lot of these characters in my own ways. Sort of a redeeming factor I guess for these episodes I guess. :shrug:
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Re: Why do people (or maybe you personally) dislike episodes 25 & 26 (the TV Episodes) so much?

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Postby Reichu » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:42 pm

They're not really redundant. (Episode 25 includes character material that exists nowhere else and without which those characters can't be understood, for instance.) But because the one ending already existed, there's a lot of stuff that EoE didn't have to do again, instead enabling it to focus on new and complementary stuff.
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Re: Why do people (or maybe you personally) dislike episodes 25 & 26 (the TV Episodes) so much?

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Postby Tomballian » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:07 am

I definitely wouldn't say i hate the episode, i think they are actually a pretty interesting watch. Its just that its to artsy for me, it being basically the second half of EoE but even more confusing.

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Re: Why do people (or maybe you personally) dislike episodes 25 & 26 (the TV Episodes) so much?

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Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:54 pm

View Original Post天使 | Nyo | 天使 wrote:I know people would be mad because they wanted an "epic final battle" to end the show off with a bang or something
Not so much as no final boss fight, but the way the TV ending appears to drop all the running plot threads (e.g. what about those other Eva units talked about in episode 22?), apart from the one that was just bubbling in the background since episode 2, the Instrumentality Project.

That style of reaction can be seen in both the belated addition of those episodes' script to the Literal Translation Project, and the prefatory remarks there
LTP episode 25 wrote:I'd like to know what do you think after you watch Eva series.

Captions, Captions, Captions, Captions, Captions, Captions, Captions,
Captions, Captions, Captions, Captions, Captions, Captions, Captions,
and speech, without motion... That's the very beginning of the final
stage of Evangelion. No solution to the problems, no clues to the
mysteries.


LTP episode 26 wrote:I have nothing to say. Eva#26 the final Episode was a collage of
grafiti, and a collection of the words of cult or sect leaders.
"The instrumentality of man project" was nothing but brainwashing.

I have a good suggestion for those who read this script. Replace the
name "Shinji" with "GAINAX", and replace "Eva" or "piloting Eva" with
"The making of Evangelion", the resulting script will completely make
sense.

Now that it is obvious that the making of Evangelion itself has been
the excuse to make Evangelion, after all.

You might know that when A.D. Vision announced the international
release of Eva, they said something like "Eva is being remade for the
international release. The resulting Eva will be of OVA quality."

I really anticipate the remake. At least the last two or three episodes should
be remade. Nobody wishes to buy LDs that contains exactly the same
scenes as the TV version.
# But I will buy.

In this sense, the video recorded TV show will be a very rare
collectors item.


My rejoinder, especially to the episode 25 piece, would be "read more c1990 science fiction, especially the wave of techno-chiliastic works from that period", because that was exactly how it came over to me -- a sort of the aftermath of Marooned in RealTime meets The Last Battle* in one of Greg Egan's polein.

*that one's from the 1950s
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Re: Why do people (or maybe you personally) dislike episodes 25 & 26 (the TV Episodes) so much?

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Postby 天使 | Nyo | 天使 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:32 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Not so much as no final boss fight, but the way the TV ending appears to drop all the running plot threads (e.g. what about those other Eva units talked about in episode 22?), apart from the one that was just bubbling in the background since episode 2, the Instrumentality Project.

That style of reaction can be seen in both the belated addition of those episodes' script to the Literal Translation Project, and the prefatory remarks there




My rejoinder, especially to the episode 25 piece, would be "read more c1990 science fiction, especially the wave of techno-chiliastic works from that period", because that was exactly how it came over to me -- a sort of the aftermath of Marooned in RealTime meets The Last Battle* in one of Greg Egan's polein.

*that one's from the 1950s



Yeah, I absolutely get that. I mean, we went from Shinji getting guilty from killing another (technical) Human being to going to a therapy session, an interesting therapy session, but really not much more. And yes, it did kinda drop some of the depression with Asuka, since she doesn't seem as depressed as she should be after everything she's been through (making Asuka in EoE WAAAAAY better and more relevant to the series, but that sort of meant to be the true ending, so of course she's more like herself in that movie compared to these last two episodes, there some small bits here and there of it though.) Again, I actually REALLY like the art for those episodes, so what it makes for in the lack of action or anything else (which isn't always necessary because Evangelion has a lot of good moments outside of battles), it makes for in solid, crazy, beautiful visuals and some rather interesting writing specifically focusing on Shinji and his condition, and it gives a resolution/ending to Shinji's Characters ARC (though it still leaves some stuff open for interpretation and leaves questions about him unanswered.)

I dunno. I'm just kinda babbling here, most of the stuff I put here isn't even really related to the quote I'm replying to. :shrug:
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Re: Why do people (or maybe you personally) dislike episodes 25 & 26 (the TV Episodes) so much?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:41 am

I am not sure why the TV series ending got so much hate. In fact, I don’t even know that the TV series got that much hate from audience at the time. Much of the hate mail we see recorded in End of Evangelion refers more to the Death & Rebirth film than it does the TV series ending. (I don’t even think the hate mail displayed in the film even references the TV ending.)

Most American audiences were expecting something a bit more action-oriented, I guess. I dunno, it’s weird. The pacing in Episodes 16 and onward certainly begin to abandon any conventional action pacing in its editing, instead becoming more somber. The show starts to linger on the awkward pauses between characters introduced in Ep 6. Instead of picking up the pace of the editing in order to build adrenaline in the audience, Anno pauses to contemplate the killing of Kaworu as the last Angel trying to track Lilith. I can’t imaging the slow, methodical pacing of Ep 24 giving way to more action-oriented, traditionally read as “climactic,” film techniques in the last two. The ending was always going to be paced more slowly and methodically. The existence of EoE really only proves that case rather than dismissing it. The only real traditional action scene for this genre in that film is Asuka’s final battle, and even then it doesn’t build up excitement inasmuch as it builds up a sense of dread.

People who are privy to the characters’ needs in the series aren’t upset by the TV ending. I remember introducing a therapist friend of mine to NGE by lending her my DVD copies (which happened after the Netflix release, because fuck Fly Me To The Moon’s absence), and she texts me half way through Episode 25 asking “Wait, the last two episodes are basically an intense therapy session for Shinji?” Later on she tells me that it was her favorite part of the show.

View Original PostLuigi Shinji wrote:I don't hate ep25 and 26 but they're definietly not as memorabol as EOE.

That’s tough for me to figure out. Almost everyone I’ve talked to about the show seems to mention EoTV before going on into EoE. That thing has a reputation; infamous even, to some. That legacy almost overshadows the film version. But then, the explicit and unhinged imagery in EoE certainly leaves its lasting impressions on the viewers as well.
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Re: Why do people (or maybe you personally) dislike episodes 25 & 26 (the TV Episodes) so much?

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Postby cyharding » Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:59 pm

This is making me wonder if it as the TV ending that started the show's rise in the Japanese popular consciousness or was there some hype over the show in the middle of its run?
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Re: Why do people (or maybe you personally) dislike episodes 25 & 26 (the TV Episodes) so much?

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Postby 天使 | Nyo | 天使 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:26 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I am not sure why the TV series ending got so much hate. In fact, I don’t even know that the TV series got that much hate from audience at the time. Much of the hate mail we see recorded in End of Evangelion refers more to the Death & Rebirth film than it does the TV series ending. (I don’t even think the hate mail displayed in the film even references the TV ending.)

Most American audiences were expecting something a bit more action-oriented, I guess. I dunno, it’s weird. The pacing in Episodes 16 and onward certainly begin to abandon any conventional action pacing in its editing, instead becoming more somber. The show starts to linger on the awkward pauses between characters introduced in Ep 6. Instead of picking up the pace of the editing in order to build adrenaline in the audience, Anno pauses to contemplate the killing of Kaworu as the last Angel trying to track Lilith. I can’t imaging the slow, methodical pacing of Ep 24 giving way to more action-oriented, traditionally read as “climactic,” film techniques in the last two. The ending was always going to be paced more slowly and methodically. The existence of EoE really only proves that case rather than dismissing it. The only real traditional action scene for this genre in that film is Asuka’s final battle, and even then it doesn’t build up excitement inasmuch as it builds up a sense of dread.

People who are privy to the characters’ needs in the series aren’t upset by the TV ending. I remember introducing a therapist friend of mine to NGE by lending her my DVD copies (which happened after the Netflix release, because fuck Fly Me To The Moon’s absence), and she texts me half way through Episode 25 asking “Wait, the last two episodes are basically an intense therapy session for Shinji?” Later on she tells me that it was her favorite part of the show.


That’s tough for me to figure out. Almost everyone I’ve talked to about the show seems to mention EoTV before going on into EoE. That thing has a reputation; infamous even, to some. That legacy almost overshadows the film version. But then, the explicit and unhinged imagery in EoE certainly leaves its lasting impressions on the viewers as well.


I guess it makes sense to have something different since the show WAS changing around A LOT during the second half of the series. Anno was given a book on psychology by a fellow employee and I assume he wanted to experiment Eva with that (information for such is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMgnQ7e7o44, I don't really mind the other opinionated stuff throughout the video though.) If you ended it off with a bang, people would assume that "this is the end" and whatever else they had planned would've had to have been thrown out. Personally, I like these episodes because of how screwy they are, and they were the defining episodes that got me the closest in terms of relating with Shinji (which is something I VERY FREQUENTLY discuss here.)

Also, the same thing on the whole therapist thing, except I introduced the show to him and told him about how the show affected me (though I didn't go too in-depth with personal stuff because LORD KNOWS what kind of stuff I'd be saying to him. :facepalm: )

EoE is the more tangible, real-feeling ending at the end of the day though. It's probably even a bit more psychological in terms of visuals and ending just the entirety of the show.

It may have not been the conventional way of going about ending a show, the GODDAMN, the ones we got were something else! :D
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Re: Why do people (or maybe you personally) dislike episodes 25 & 26 (the TV Episodes) so much?

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Postby Zoop » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:48 am

I really didn't like the episodes on my first viewing, (the whole second part of the series).
Mostly because I didn't expect it all, my only experience with Anime up to this point were shouty shonens like Dragonball Z.
So I kept expecting a happy end, surely all this has to improve at some point?
It didn't, it got worse and depressing. Didn't like it all, but also couldn't stop watching.

By the end of 26, I was like, wait, that's the end? At least it's sort of a happy end, I suppose?

Then found out about EoE, an "alternate" ending, preview of Asuka fighting the harpies, oh boy, this must be the proper ending.
I just stared blankly at my screen as the credits rolled by ... wtf was all that. I was like 14 years old or something, I didn't get it at all.

So if you'd say people dislike ep 25&26, I'd totally understand why.
But afaik, it wasn't the series themselves that got shit on, but Death & Rebirth.

Ever since I must have seen the series at least a dozen times, I got to appreciate it for what it is.
There's very few friends that I managed to get interested in Eva, it certainly isn't for everyone, I can imagine a lot of people wouldn't understand shit from ep25&26.

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Re: Why do people (or maybe you personally) dislike episodes 25 & 26 (the TV Episodes) so much?

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Postby 天使 | Nyo | 天使 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:07 pm

View Original PostZoop wrote:I really didn't like the episodes on my first viewing, (the whole second part of the series).
Mostly because I didn't expect it all, my only experience with Anime up to this point were shouty shonens like Dragonball Z.
So I kept expecting a happy end, surely all this has to improve at some point?
It didn't, it got worse and depressing. Didn't like it all, but also couldn't stop watching.

By the end of 26, I was like, wait, that's the end? At least it's sort of a happy end, I suppose?

Then found out about EoE, an "alternate" ending, preview of Asuka fighting the harpies, oh boy, this must be the proper ending.
I just stared blankly at my screen as the credits rolled by ... wtf was all that. I was like 14 years old or something, I didn't get it at all.

So if you'd say people dislike ep 25&26, I'd totally understand why.
But afaik, it wasn't the series themselves that got shit on, but Death & Rebirth.

Ever since I must have seen the series at least a dozen times, I got to appreciate it for what it is.
There's very few friends that I managed to get interested in Eva, it certainly isn't for everyone, I can imagine a lot of people wouldn't understand shit from ep25&26.



True, I realize that now. Since I've heard only a select number of fans in actuality really disliked those last two episodes, I took those few peoples' opinions who don't like those episodes as the majority opinion. I like both endings as I previously stated, both have their merits.

As for Death & Rebirth, I guess Gainax just wanted to put it out early. They wanted the fans to know that the end was coming, otherwise, fans would've probably been more mad about just getting a recap movie and having really nothing else new (except for the segments with Shinji, Asuka, Rei, and Kaworu playing their instruments.) In my opinion, it seems almost ungrateful. HOWEVER, as a result, we got one of the most emotional, psychological, and most screwed up endings we ever got to an anime...maybe even ANY piece of media (that's just my biased opinion though.) :D
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Re: Why do people (or maybe you personally) dislike episodes 25 & 26 (the TV Episodes) so much?

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Postby FelipeFritschF » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:03 pm

I quite love the D&R string quartet. Though I do miss Touji, poor underrated boi. Here's one of my favourite old analysis: post/550728/The-Eva-Pilot-Quartet/

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Re: Why do people (or maybe you personally) dislike episodes 25 & 26 (the TV Episodes) so much?

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Postby The Flying Fortress » Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:03 pm

In some ways I still feel uncomfortable when someone asks about watching Evangelion for the first time and someone makes the infamous warning: "You can disregard 25 and 26, the real end is End Of Evangelion." And yes, I think the last few episodes have delivered us a raw chicken, but I also find it an incredibly unique experience and I like the crazy psychological trip they were forced to make on the low budget. For greater effect all the main arguments are there, even before EoE and the abstract end of the series was scandalized, there were already samples that the anime could go that way, see episodes 16,20,22 ...the seeds were there, no new narrative was created at the "last moment"

In EoE it's cool to see mankind turning orange juice, you know, but I still prefer my marginalized TV episodes.

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Re: Why do people (or maybe you personally) dislike episodes 25 & 26 (the TV Episodes) so much?

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Postby notnamnam » Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:32 am

I quite liked Eps 25-26, I thought they were really trippy but did give an interesting ending. I think people don't like these episodes because theyre more confusing, vague and don't give an as conclusive ending as EoE does. But to say EoE had a conclusive ending is a stretch, to say the least...
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Re: Why do people (or maybe you personally) dislike episodes 25 & 26 (the TV Episodes) so much?

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Postby Tumbling Down » Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:11 am

My dislike of episodes 25 and 26 has nothing to do with the format. The format is fine, because I cared more about the psychology characters than about the literal events of the series. The problem is that it feels like a phony media depiction of depression, whereas EoE is brutally honest. Shinji simply deciding to love himself and then getting a seemingly happy ending is nonsensical, because wanting to not have bad thoughts doesn't make the bad thoughts go away, let alone stop those bad thoughts from influencing your behavior. The AU scene was also nonsensical. "Imagine a world where your mom isn't dead, and also where you aren't an Eva pilot" isn't a statement against escapism, it's a statement that Shinji should EMBRACE escapism, and imagine a better world instead of living in the real one. If 26 was meant to be a dark ending where Shinji accepts Instrumentality, that could work, but that doesn't seem to be what Anno was going for. I don't know what he was thinking, unless he only intended for that scene to be interpreted metatextually and not within the context of the character's own journey.

View Original PostReichu wrote:(Episode 25 includes character material that exists nowhere else and without which those characters can't be understood, for instance.)

What stuff are you referring to? I only remember Rei talking about how she longed for the release of death, but is dreading it now that she knows it might actually happen.

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Re: Why do people (or maybe you personally) dislike episodes 25 & 26 (the TV Episodes) so much?

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Postby Reichu » Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:15 am

If you can only remember a single line of Rei's as being unique and important content, I'd say a rewatch is in order.
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Re: Why do people (or maybe you personally) dislike episodes 25 & 26 (the TV Episodes) so much?

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Postby Blockio » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:40 am

Yeah, definitely. There is a lot of important stuff going on - if you only remember a tiny fraction of it, no wonder you feel like the episodes are shallow
Why don't you save the Princess next time instead of being such a baby? She would love it and maybe you could get a sweet kiss. ~ sadly not Mari in Q (Joseki)
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu


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