Gendo's silent line: new theory

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Re: Gendo's silent line: new theory

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Postby nullyoaG » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:19 pm

yep she is one of the higher ups in the organisation and knows the military side of things.....basically she knew they were going to come and get them but she did not expect it to be so soon. Kaji's mission was to use Misato to screw up nerv and ritsuo was originally supposed to be a double agent working for nerv but switched sides after she found out she was reis replacement in that nude scene. Kaji managed to get inside Misato's bed and gleaned from her a lot of stuff which he should not have had access to which is why he got shot. Gendo most likely alredy knew rituko was going to betray later on him when he said he was very dissappointed. (the dummy plug system was there for an important purpose which ritsuko sabotaged ....and nerv was also not supposed to cooperate with the other organisations because Gendo had his own secret agenda. ) here let me simplify: 1. nerv's purpose was to save humanity 2. gendo has intention to ditch humanity for his own needs 3. gendo's superiors found out that gendo was going to betray them so Kaji was sent to spy on nerv 4. gendo knows Kaji is a spy and sends ritsuo to seele to act as nervs own version of Kaji (ie. get inside seele's bed and steal their secrets). 5. Kaji exploits Misato 6. ritsuko betrays gendo and ruins his plans etc etcetc ....which is why misatio was completely taken by surprise that they were deployed so early ahead of time and also that they were being overun by the whole coup (she already knows that Kaji was a spy sent to betrayed her...but she does not know there is another traitor in nerv which is why she was taken by surprise....the secrets she divulged to Kaji would not have allowed the enemy branches to complete the eva series so early ahead of time and also Kaji was dealt with and assasinated by nerv so there was no explanation how nervs secrets got into the hands of the enemy branches.... )

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Re: Gendo's silent line: new theory

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Postby Blockio » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:30 am

You didn't come here to discuss, you came here to assert your crazy headcanon to everyone else as a fact and refuse to listen to anyone saying otherwise. This conversation is over.
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Re: Gendo's silent line: new theory

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Postby nullyoaG » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:01 am

okay okay, my opinion only, cheers

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Re: Gendo's silent line: new theory

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:31 pm

Okay, since we’re doing this, here are my thoughts on the issue:

First of all, we’re chasing the wrong rabbit. We notice a muted line of Gendo, and we’re all “OMG! A SILENT LINE! EVA IS SO MYSTERIOUS. I MUST SOLVE THIS.” But we’re missing the forest for the trees when we do that. Yes, Gendo’s line is silent, but that’s not because the audience isn’t to supposed to hear it, it’s because Ritsuko isn’t listening to it. We’re not supposed to ask “What was that line?” Instead, we’re supposed to ask “Why isn’t Ritsuko listening?” Seriously, go back and watch that scene again. Gendo’s line is perfectly audible right up until Anno cuts to Ritsuko’s POV of Gendo. As soon as it cuts to the POV, Gendo’s line goes silent. Why does it go silent? Because it’s shot from Ritsuko’s perspective, and she probably doesn’t care what Gendo says at this point because she knows life for her is no longer worth living. (She probably even knows that she going to die at that point. Betraying Gendo doesn’t go unpunished.) She doesn’t hear it because it doesn’t matter; anything that comes out of that mouth is a lie. (She even says that she believes as much.) It doesn’t matter because the world at that point is now fucked. The line is silent because it doesn’t matter to the character. That’s what I mean by “It doesn’t matter.” All of Eva Air is spent stripping meaning from life before the second half builds meaning back up from the ground. Ritsuko's unhearing response to Gendo’s words reflect this, and help establish that atmosphere.

And I know that there was a real line that Anno wrote that made Yuriko Yamaguchi feel “defeated,” but filmmakers (directors and actors alike) will quite often share information with each other that help establish a mood for their audience, even if that exact information is never publicly shared.

That’s my whole take on the silent line. You guys can explore the possibilities of what that line was all you want, but it’s not gonna unlock any new meaning to the series; there was already meaning in the silence.
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Re: Gendo's silent line: new theory

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Postby kuribo-04 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:46 pm

∆ Never quite saw it from that perspective.
Very interesting.

I always just felt it was more universal that way than a specific line.
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Re: Gendo's silent line: new theory

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Postby nullyoaG » Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:10 pm

yes art is a product of both the artist and the art viewer.... originally the art is only the way artist intended when he created the art..... and then there are things that go unintended and then finally at the very end there is the final product as viewd by the viewer (which in some cases is conpletely different from original intention of the artist).....rebuild of eva illustrates this perfectly i think

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Re: Gendo's silent line: new theory

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Postby eldomtom2 » Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:30 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Okay, since we’re doing this, here are my thoughts on the issue:

First of all, we’re chasing the wrong rabbit. We notice a muted line of Gendo, and we’re all “OMG! A SILENT LINE! EVA IS SO MYSTERIOUS. I MUST SOLVE THIS.” But we’re missing the forest for the trees when we do that. Yes, Gendo’s line is silent, but that’s not because the audience isn’t to supposed to hear it, it’s because Ritsuko isn’t listening to it. We’re not supposed to ask “What was that line?” Instead, we’re supposed to ask “Why isn’t Ritsuko listening?” Seriously, go back and watch that scene again. Gendo’s line is perfectly audible right up until Anno cuts to Ritsuko’s POV of Gendo. As soon as it cuts to the POV, Gendo’s line goes silent. Why does it go silent? Because it’s shot from Ritsuko’s perspective, and she probably doesn’t care what Gendo says at this point because she knows life for her is no longer worth living. (She probably even knows that she going to die at that point. Betraying Gendo doesn’t go unpunished.) She doesn’t hear it because it doesn’t matter; anything that comes out of that mouth is a lie. (She even says that she believes as much.) It doesn’t matter because the world at that point is now fucked. The line is silent because it doesn’t matter to the character. That’s what I mean by “It doesn’t matter.” All of Eva Air is spent stripping meaning from life before the second half builds meaning back up from the ground. Ritsuko's unhearing response to Gendo’s words reflect this, and help establish that atmosphere.

And I know that there was a real line that Anno wrote that made Yuriko Yamaguchi feel “defeated,” but filmmakers (directors and actors alike) will quite often share information with each other that help establish a mood for their audience, even if that exact information is never publicly shared.

That’s my whole take on the silent line. You guys can explore the possibilities of what that line was all you want, but it’s not gonna unlock any new meaning to the series; there was already meaning in the silence.

It is worth noting that 25' was directed by Tsurumaki, not Anno, and thus the decision may have been his. The Anno-penned draft script we have explicitly makes Gendo's line inaudible by the sounds of the battle outside.

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Re: Gendo's silent line: new theory

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Postby LPeyrani » Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:38 pm

Ritsuko's face changes expression while listening to Gendo. To me it is clear that she does hear him very well.

Moreover, I don't think she's following Seele's orders. She decides to reprogram the Magi when she gets the chance. Why on Earth should she seek revenge doing what Seele tells her? She was a proud woman: I think her idea was to ruin both Gendo's and Seele's plans.

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Re: Gendo's silent line: new theory

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Postby nullyoaG » Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:57 pm

Seele is a puppet master (nerv/gendo is the disobediant puppet, ritsuko was his partner in crime). seele are the ones who initiated ritsukos betray. Since Nerv was the hope of mankind....Ritsuko would have been the top 3 or 4 most powerful person in the world and not directly controlled by seele. Nothing is revealed in the series other than that Seele was successful in breaking the bond between the 2 lovers (the nude scene was the turning point in their relationship)

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Re: Gendo's silent line: new theory

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:43 pm

View Original Posteldomtom2 wrote:It is worth noting that 25' was directed by Tsurumaki, not Anno, and thus the decision may have been his. The Anno-penned draft script we have explicitly makes Gendo's line inaudible by the sounds of the battle outside.

What battle sounds outside? Anno was the chief editor, which includes shot cuts and sound effects. They cut to a POV while cutting out SFX, so...

Also, speaking of directors, Anno was still chief director over Air. People tend to forget that many animated films have multiple directors, and that many of their jobs simply involved approving animations, with much of the actual narratively creative work done prior to animation beginning. Tsurumaki job as director for Air was approving animations for all of the shots required, not making grand, sweeping storytelling decisions.
Last edited by FreakyFilmFan4ever on Mon Mar 02, 2020 12:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby nullyoaG » Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:48 pm

the facial expression shown by ritsuko indicates there was some kind of flattering comment/understanding that only the two of them understood/shared (possibly sexual and censored - i tend to agree with OP in this sense, but it was not about the mother it was more like "you really screwed me up ritrusko", "liar(who the one screwing who))
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:50 pm

^ or, given the context of the rest of the scene, snide rejection. No one is flattered by a man with a gun pointed at them. (Unless that’s your kink, man. I’m not here to kink shame you.)

Also, dialogue censorship in a film that flaunts giant naked Rei hand vagainas? I seriously doubt it. But, sure, if you want to believe that Gendo’s Big mysteriously line of dialogue was a very flattering (?) “lol, ur moms a hoe,” well, like I said, I’m not here to kink shame you.
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Postby nullyoaG » Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:00 pm

censored not because it was obscene or offensive...but rather because its considered too revealling/telling about humans/affairs power/corruption etc....the series is already depressing/serious/deep/psycho with/without the censoring/parts (and ofcourse there is no doubt there would be kink involved when we are talking about the most powerful man in the world with 4 women 2 affairs with a mother and daugther, a prepubescent Rei etc

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Re: Gendo's silent line: new theory

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Postby LPeyrani » Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:38 pm

No one is flattered by a man with a gun pointed at them.


I think that the gun didn't affect very much Ritsuko emotionally, since she pointed her first. She expected that gun, because she was very aggressive in the first place. Gendo's words, on the other side, were gratuitous: she listened to them and changed face expression.

Maybe it was not clear because this discussion has had long gaps of silence, but I was trying to confute the theory presented above that stated that we didn't hear Gendo's words because Ritsuko wasn't listening to them (and we are looking through Ritsko's perspective in that moment). It seems to me that, apart from the content of those words, most of us agree that she did hear what we couldn't.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:04 pm

...and what would the point of a character hearing something that the audience couldn’t? Especially when the film uses the characters perspective when conveying inaudibility? Answer that, and you have the keys to whatever extra-textual theory you want to believe in. I’m simply trying to keep these ideas based in the text and context of the film itself.
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Postby nullyoaG » Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:47 am

to show the audience that what was said was something only understood/shared between the two of them as a couple....ie. the title for the ep after "air" was "my true heart/feelings/thoughts".....its exact contents/wording is private and not meant to be understood by audience(but the hint was you get the gist of it if you solved the "puzzle" from the hints etc).....(showing a POV perspective and then the facial reaction indicates special understanding/impact/response)

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:03 am

I do believe that this is the first and only time I’ve ever seen it argued that a the information that makes up a POV shot of a character in a movie is not accurately portraying the perceived experience of said character within that movie, so you’ll forgive me if I take that logic with a grain of salt.
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Re: Gendo's silent line: new theory

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Postby Blockio » Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:55 am

Yeah I'm with Freaky on this one, what you're proposing sounds like bs to me
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Re: Gendo's silent line: new theory

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Postby eldomtom2 » Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:11 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:What battle sounds outside?

The draft EoE script explicitly that Gendo's words should be inaudible due to "an explosion or something".

Also, speaking of directors, Anno was still chief director over Air. People tend to forget that many animated films have multiple directors, and that many of their jobs simply involved approving animations, with much of the actual narratively creative work done prior to animation beginning. Tsurumaki job as director for Air was approving animations for all of the shots required, not making grand, sweeping storytelling decisions.

And you have a source for this? It seems to be that you are confusing "director" with "animation director". We know from other sources that the episode directors on the TV series were not mere instruments of Anno's will.

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Re: Gendo's silent line: new theory

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Postby nullyoaG » Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:42 pm

View Original Posteldomtom2 wrote:The draft EoE script explicitly that Gendo's words should be inaudible due to "an explosion or something".


that wouldnt have worked....because then Ritsuko would have to say "sorry what was that? say what?"......which is why they had to silence it so that ritsuko could say her line


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