Asuka isn't Justified

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Re: Asuka isn't Justified

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Postby silvermoonlight » Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:14 pm

View Original PostHopelessromantic wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbr.com/neon-genesis-evangelion-worst-things-asuka-did/amp/

All the more reason why I despise Asuka.

What I really want to see is her get on her knees in front of Shinji and apologize for everything she’s done. That would really be a plus for fan service.

User has been warned for use of click-bait and obstinate refusal to watch the show they feel qualified to argue with others about.


:facepalm:

I could write a whole thing here but I feel its already been said, all I'm going to say is this reminds me of the toxic bullshit that drove me out of this fandom in 2002 because I got so tired of crap like this going Asuka deserved it, Shinji should have totally raped her cos she's a bitch and she had the none consenting wanking off coming.

These responses always comes from people who have watched the show and only see the surface level of the characters and have not looked in to the deeper themes or understood that both Shinji and Asuka are equally flawed and the relationship at this point is highly toxic and they both still have a lot to work out and post EOE is their chance for growth and change.

Instead, they just want to pick a side and beat their (So called Alpha male chest) while not getting that their own actions are highly toxic and they need to take a good long look in the mirror and reevaluate themselves.
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Re: Asuka isn't Justified

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Postby cyharding » Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:26 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I never saw any of the Back to the Future movies (true story!)

I...I'm not alone anymore. :w00t:
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Re: Asuka isn't Justified

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Postby C.T.1290 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:07 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I never saw any of the Back to the Future movies (true story!),


Wait, seriously? You never saw Back to the Future before!? Where have you been this whole time!? Not criticizing, just a little shocked.

And I do agree, maybe hating on Asuka is getting pretty old for everyone here. I know, I’m not without blame here. I’m well aware of that kind of shit I did here, now I’m wanting to move on from that. Like I said earlier before, the kids needs some serious therapy. I can’t stress this well enough.
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Re: Asuka isn't Justified

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Postby Hopelessromantic » Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:50 pm

In all seriousness, none of the characters in Evangelion are fully justified either. The motives behind their actions are understandable and relatable. But are they acceptable? Not exactly, especially when their decisions affect others directly, when they make others suffer for their own personal hatred. This aspect are what makes each character not only flawed, but also hesitant to confront their inner demons.

There’s a quote I like to live by. “You can never get rid of your inner demons, only learn to live with them. Eventually your inner demons will learn to live with you.”
Throughout my life, I’ve tried to fit in with the norm. Now I’m embracing the fact that I am a full fledged bohemian. Who said standing out has to remain a bad thing?

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Re: Asuka isn't Justified

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Postby C.T.1290 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:06 pm

View Original PostHopelessromantic wrote:There’s a quote I like to live by. “You can never get rid of your inner demons, only learn to live with them. Eventually your inner demons will learn to live with you.”

Well, this is going to be tricky for some people.

The least we can do is to not let our inner demons get the best of us and hurt those we care about. Best to keep them under our constant watch.
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Re: Asuka isn't Justified

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Postby Kendrix » Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:57 pm

On the one hand it's refreshing to see some backlash to the narrative of bashing Shinji & holding him responsible for all of Asuka's problems.

There's no special magic about romantic relationship and I see no logical reason to suppose that he could have done anything more than, say, Hikari, even if he had been on perfect behavior, and he cannot be expected or be considered to have an obligation to someone who acts hostile if not bullying, whatever the reasons - beyond basic human decency & politeness that is.
The loud drunk person on the subway is probably having the worst day of their life but you'll still probably keep some distance.

This is why I wish the alt live action scene hadn't been cut for time cause IMHO it does a great job at dissecting Asuka's character flaws & showing that everyone else would manage to make problems for themselves even if Shinji weren't there;

That said, I think it's just as absurd to turn around & demonize Asuka or call her an abuser or any sort of heavy emotionally loaded label, or blame her for Shinji's problems.

That framing might be helpful for political disputes or at family court, but it's not a magic hammer and everything is not a nail; Applying it to darkfic rather misses it's point, as it is there to vent & explore dark emotions in a 'safe' setting where the only ones impacted are fellow cartoon people.

She's a somewhat mean schoolgirl. Not more, not less. Mildly unpleasant maybe, but hardly a capital offense; People grow out of that if they don't get mind-probed by aliens or left to center their whole lives around piloting a soul eating artificial god because it's convenient for the people in charge.

An aspect is that I think doesn't get enough attention here is that the initial "its all his fault" response is no coincidence -
We're seeing the narrative through Shinji's pov and he blames himself, for the same reason that he always reflexively apologizes for everything - because he's got a deep-seated fear of being hated by people & has the experience of total powerlessness from when his parents left him lodged pretty deeply in his heart.
In the end no matter how young you are you see yourself as a person making meaningful decisions in control of their fate (heck, are adults perfectly free of outside influence? Certainly not!); often ppl prefer the idea that someone fucked up to the reality that no one was in control at all, at least not them.
Ultimately Asuka's problem is that she's a child soldier in the hands of a callous organization that works their tools until they break.

The point being missed here is that what we're really seeing here is the humiliating experience of being unable to help a friend; For all intents and purposes, EVA 02 might as well be big bottle of booze or drugs or work-related burnout.
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Re: Asuka isn't Justified

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Postby Hopelessromantic » Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:29 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:On the one hand it's refreshing to see some backlash to the narrative of bashing Shinji & holding him responsible for all of Asuka's problems.


I completely agree. I believe it is wrong to blame someone for another person’s problems, especially when they are not the root of the issue.
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Re: Asuka isn't Justified

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Postby Kiiwiibird » Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:00 am

Honest to god i can't believe this thread was made in 2019 (with the most recent reply being months old as of 20 fucking 21) and there are still people legitimately out here saying shit like 'asukas an evil bitch! its all shinjis fault!!' or god forbid 'Shinji did nothing wrong he's baby!'

please can we as a fandom collectively agree to leave this shit in 2008?

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Re: Asuka isn't Justified

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Postby BernardoCairo » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:26 am

In April of last year, I've decided to take some time from Evangelion after going through, what I believe to be, the most useless, ridiculous and embarrassing discussion I've ever been to. In fact, I even left Facebook because of it. I simply couldn't conceive what I was reading! How could anyone misinterpret an anime so badly?
Basically, a guy was trying to convince me that Asuka had the best life of any character from the series, because she had gone to college and had a step mom. Therefore, her actions were completely unfounded. He also said that Shinji did nothing wrong at all and that he did "too little" to hurt her in the end. It was in this day that I realized how toxic the Evangelion community can really be. It was also when I truly comprehend how far people can go to justify their hate on a fictional character.
Let me say this in a way that everyone can understand. Shinji and Asuka are both 14 years old! They are still maturing! Not only that, but they have also been through the worst childhoods I can possibly imagine (specially Asuka). And it doesn't even end there! Both Shinji and Asuka are carrying the weight of humanity in their backs during the entire series (handling a power similar to the one of God)! Expecting any type of emotional maturity from them is completely unreasonable!
By the way, the whole point of their relationship is to be a raw representation of the Hedgehog's Dilema. Basically implying that, yes, Shinji is capable of hurting her as well. The series takes a lot of effort to explain how both her fake personality and his inertia are horrible not only for themselves, but for those around them. Both are unhealthy ways to escape from reality. If you don't believe in me, that's ok. Just go read what Anno himself wrote in his original version of "Everything You've Ever Dreamed For".
About the whole "Shinji had no duty to help Asuka", I agree. But it's very convenient for him not to move a finger to try to understand her and, in the end, to expect her to love him unconditionally, basically serving as his "emotional crutch" (someone that he wants to use just to feel less bad about himself). Well, how could I expect anything else? In the end, that's the guy who would rather fap to your unconscious body than do any move while you're awake.
What I want to say with all of this is that they were both kids in pain and there is no point in trying to see who was the worst one. Shinji isn't perfect, Asuka isn't perfect. Shinji isn't a complete monster, Asuka isn't a complete monster. They are simply humans! People capable of hurting and being hurt! That's all!
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Re: Asuka isn't Justified

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Postby Berserk EVA-02 » Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:39 pm

View Original PostRobowang wrote:
View Original PostBlockio#892748 wrote:...what

When Asuka drains the bathwater and says "I'm not going to use the same water Misato and Idiot Shinji bathed in," she precedes that with, "Disgusting."
Then when she's reformed from the LCL "water" in EoE, she says the same thing (or close equivilent). I wonder if there's any intended connection there.

I believe Shinji also says 'Kimochi warui' when first entering the dummy plug, and one a scrapped script for The End of Evangelion, Asuka was also intended to say 'Kimochi warui' when waking up on the bottom of the lake.

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Re: Asuka isn't Justified

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Postby BernardoCairo » Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:55 pm

I think there is no connection here. That's because, in the original script of The End of Evangelion, Asuka would not close the movie by saying "kimochi warui", but rather something on the lines of "I’d hate to be killed by a bastard like you!".
That was changed because Anno, after recording the movie, dissatisfied with Yuko Miyamura’s (Asuka's voice actress) performance on that specific line. He made her repeat it over and over again, but with no success. He even went as far as to make Megumi Ogata (Shinji's voice actress) choke her.
Then, after many failed attempts, he simply asked Miyamura what she would say if a stranger snuck into her room while she slept and, instead of raping her, just masturbated in front of her body. She said she would be disgusted, he agreed and "kimochi warui" was recorded.
Therefore, it was not something planned at all. It was just how Asuka's voice actor felt about the question.
I feel bad for Miyamura, who had to go through all this. But I'm also glad they recorded the line. It is my favorite one from the series.
If you want to read more about it, I would recommend this article. https://qmisato.tumblr.com/post/614603255701471232/i-wanted-to-erase-evangelion-about-yuko
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Re: Asuka isn't Justified

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:04 pm

Warning: that article is somewhat misinformation. Anno didn’t make Ogata choke Miyamura: Ogata came up with the idea, and Miyamura agreed to it. That “QMisato” lady has been trying to cancel Anno for a long time, so she can’t really be trusted. The rest is correct, though.

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Re: Asuka isn't Justified

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Postby Blockio » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:26 pm

Yeah, anything Qmisato claims on anything tangentially related to sexual abuse in or around Eva is probably hot bullshit.
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Postby Kiiwiibird » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:33 pm

considering one of the 'sources' is the imdb link to the movies page (?) and another is broken, i gave the only remaining one a read and not once does she mention Anno, she says that working for eva was hard and implies that she didn't have the fondest memories of it for a long time (and there were issues with stalkers and scary fan interactions) but she doesn't talk about him or that scene at all.


its a bit bullshit
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Postby BernardoCairo » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:52 pm

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:Warning: that article is somewhat misinformation. Anno didn’t make Ogata choke Miyamura: Ogata came up with the idea, and Miyamura agreed to it. That “QMisato” lady has been trying to cancel Anno for a long time, so she can’t really be trusted. The rest is correct, though.

Oh, I didn't know. I was not judging Anno for it anyways. I just found the article to be interesting (aside from some grammatical mistakes), that's why I shared with you guys. Anyway, I had seen this story in several places and it was almost never different. Thanks for warning me, I guess hahaha!
By the way, the fact that Miyamura agreed to be choked is common sense. Imagine if Ogata had just jumped on her out of nowhere hahahahaha. I still feel a little bad for her, though. Recording this scene must not have been a pleasant experience. Interpreting Asuka, in general, must have been a very difficult task. But then again, I'm grateful for her! She brought my favorite character to life!

EDIT 1: I was doing some research and this is what I got. According to EvaWiki (from evageeks it self), the ending I was talking about was actually planned (https://wiki.evageeks.org/Episode_26%27). Also, according to Evamonkey (who seems to be a legit source), "kimochi warui" was a line thought by Miyamura (http://www.evamonkey.com/writings/mdwig ... -warui.php). I was just not able to find anything related to the "choke" and "question" incidents yet (precisely the most absurd parts). But I swear I've heard about it before (Buster Machine 4 seems to be familiar with it too).
Finally, I believe that QMisato did not write the article herself. I found the exact same one in another page hahahaha

EDIT 2: AH HA! I FOUND IT! It is on EvaWiki (evageeks itself)! BusterMachine4 was completely right! https://wiki.evageeks.org/Statements_by_Evangelion_Staff

Rough translation of her talk is as follows:

Miyamura:
I had been thinking directors should convey their ideal how the show shold be to us. But Anno pitches us questions such as "What do you think for yourself if things went on such and such ways to you?" After recording all lines of the movie, I was called to the studio because the final line needed to be revised. Ogata came there too as it was Asuka and Shinji's scene. Asuka's final line was "Anta nankani korosareru nowa mappira yo!" in the film scenario. Anno didn't live with my line no matter how many times I tried. Ogata and I were at a loss how we should play what Anno wanted to express; she even tried to ride on me and choke me to meet his demand. He must have been pursuing reality. Concerning the final line we adopted, I'm not sure whether I should say about it in fact. At last Anno asked me "Miyamura, just imagine you are sleeping in your bed and a stranger sneaks into your room. He can rape you anytime as you are asleep but he doesn't. Instead, he masturbates looking at you, when you wake up and know what he did to you. What do you think you would say?" I had been thinking he was a strange man, but at that moment I felt disgusting. So I told him that I thought "Disgusting". And then he sighed and said "... thought as much." He said. " I thought as much. "


EDIT 3: Take a look at this interview with Ogata as well (EvaWiki pointed it as a source). https://web.archive.org/web/20010507021 ... gata1.html
Man, I feel bad for Miyamura...
Last edited by BernardoCairo on Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Asuka isn't Justified

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:11 am

Yeah, that's the actual quote. If I'm not assuming malicious intent, I'd say the best explanation for the incorrect tidbit is a misinterpretation of the "to meet his demand" line. The article makes it seem like Anno demanded that Ogata choke Miyamura, when what actually happened was that Ogata tried to choke Miyamura, with Miyamura's full consent, in order to meet Anno's demand for a better performance. Ogata clarified as much in another interview.

But given that the article ends with a lengthy rant about how Anno is an evil hack fraud who doesn't deserve any credit for Eva, I'm gonna assume the misquote was an intentional bad faith move trying to slander him. I will continue not to trust anything QMisato says.

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Re: Asuka isn't Justified

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Postby BernardoCairo » Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:27 am

Are you talking about those cringe last two paragraphs? I don't know how Tumblr works, but I believe that was just someone's comment hahaha. But, I agree with you. The article can be misleading. I didn't noticed it on my first read, but now I can clearly see it. It's funny how, by considering Anno as the guy behind the "choke incident", the writer was able to distort the whole situation.
It was actually good that you gave me the warning. "QMisato" might not be the one behind the text, but she shared it. I've never heard of her, but now I see why I shouldn't pay much attention to what she says.
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Re: Asuka isn't Justified

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Postby Jäeger » Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:31 am

View Original PostBernardoCairo wrote:Just go read what Anno himself wrote in his original version of "Everything You've Ever Dreamed For".
About the whole "Shinji had no duty to help Asuka", I agree. But it's very convenient for him not to move a finger to try to understand her and, in the end, to expect her to love him unconditionally, basically serving as his "emotional crutch" (someone that he wants to use just to feel less bad about himself). Well, how could I expect anything else? In the end, that's the guy who would rather fap to your unconscious body than do any move while you're awake.
What I want to say with all of this is that they were both kids in pain and there is no point in trying to see who was the worst one. Shinji isn't perfect, Asuka isn't perfect. Shinji isn't a complete monster, Asuka isn't a complete monster. They are simply humans! People capable of hurting and being hurt! That's all!


As I said in other post, the original lyrics of the song are the perfect instruction manual for the movie. And yeah, both children are "guilty" of the their clash, because they are broken and have no idea abouth dealing with their feelings. I always recall how during instrumentality Shinji reproaches Asuka her inability to openly speak to him....with the kiss scene crossing the screen. And he is right!!!

From my POV it wouldn't be fair to charge Shinji for his inaction during Asuka's battle against MP Evas...because he is close to the state she was before her "resurrection" against JSDF.
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