Sadamoto fighting on Twitter, denying war crimes and discriminating Koreans, possibly falling out with Khara

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:48 pm

Is Miyazaki a Nazi sympathizer? Did he endorse the killing of Jews and the invasion of Poland? Does he salute a painting of Adolf Hitler when he wakes up every morning?

Just what exactly are we mad about here?
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Postby busterbeam » Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:53 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Is Miyazaki a Nazi sympathizer? Did he endorse the killing of Jews and the invasion of Poland? Does he salute a painting of Adolf Hitler when he wakes up every morning?

Just what exactly are we mad about here?


Only one comment could be considered "angry". I just showcased his humanization and outright praise of Otto Carius as a willfully in-your-face counter to Miyazaki's safe Hollywood-created US image.

He's not a fascist, he's also not exactly a "woke ally" in a modern US internet context. That's basically what I'm saying.
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Postby BusterMachine4 » Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:04 pm

Yeah, I'm sorry for my "Fuck Miyazaki" comment, I jumped to conclusions way too hard. I've been on edge all day, so I apologize if any of my responses have seemed overly aggressive.

But I still don't think that singing the praises of an unapologetic Nazi in a cutesy talking animal comic is really a good idea. People say that the average German soldiers had no idea what they were really fighting for, but that's a misconception: everyone knew that Hitler's goal was Germanic ethnic purity and world conquest, and almost everyone supported that goal. You can talk all you want about how Hitler's unprecedented use of rhetoric and propaganda led people to actually support his goals, but don't act like the average German soldier was an innocent victim.

And I wouldn't correlate support of imperialist governments in Germany and Japan with criticism of modern-day American imperialism, either. I hate imperialism, no matter who does it: I've disagreed with almost every major US foreign policy decision from the late 50s onwards. But I still think that nationalism is not a good solution, and it feels like the people in Japan who long to return to the days of the God-Emperor and his bloodthirst army are missing the point entirely.

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Postby busterbeam » Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:13 pm

It's partly my fault for being so intentionally gung-ho and sensationalist about it, and it's completely fine to disagree with him making that manga. I just think people oversimplify the philosophies of many old manga/anime creators, who rarely fit into a simple "woke/unwoke" dichotomy (or simply transitioned completely from one to the other).
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Postby Lavinius » Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:24 pm

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:But I still don't think that singing the praises of an unapologetic Nazi

Can you please state what precisely Otto Carius did which he should have apologized for? I haven't yet seen him described as guilty of any war crimes; I haven't even seen any claims that he joined the Nazi Party.
everyone knew that Hitler's goal was Germanic ethnic purity and world conquest, and almost everyone supported that goal.

And, as I've said, everyone also knew that Stalin's goal was also (bloodthirsty) world conquest with considerable ethnic cleansing. There's a rock and there's a hard place.
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Postby BusterMachine4 » Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:45 pm

View Original PostLavinius wrote:Can you please state what precisely Otto Carius did which he should have apologized for? I haven't yet seen him described as guilty of any war crimes; I haven't even seen any claims that he joined the Nazi Party.

Well, I'd say being a literal Nazi is a pretty good reason to apologize. Just because you don't murder every Jew you see doesn't mean you don't harbor Nazi beliefs. And just because he might not have joined the Party itself doesn't mean he didn't agree with the Nazis' goals.
And, as I've said, everyone also knew that Stalin's goal was also (bloodthirsty) world conquest with considerable ethnic cleansing. There's a rock and there's a hard place.

So? Just because there's another guy out there who's just as bad as the guy you listen to doesn't make the guy you listen to any less bad. I tend to have little sympathy for people who literally supported Adolf Hitler himself.

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Postby Lavinius » Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:50 pm

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:Well, I'd say being a literal Nazi is a pretty good reason to apologize. Just because you don't murder every Jew you see doesn't mean you don't harbor Nazi beliefs. And just because he might not have joined the Party itself doesn't mean he didn't agree with the Nazis' goals.

But where do you get the notion that Carius did support the Nazis' (evil) goals?

So? Just because there's another guy out there who's just as bad as the guy you listen to doesn't make the guy you listen to any less bad. I tend to have little sympathy for people who literally supported Adolf Hitler himself.

So what do you think Carius should have done? Let Stalin conquer the world and do whatever bloodthirsty things he wished, so he can keep his hands clean of having been on the same side of the war as Hitler?
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Postby BusterMachine4 » Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:58 pm

View Original PostLavinius wrote:But where do you get the notion that Carius did support the Nazis' (evil) goals?

Well, the user who brought up this whole controversy in the first place also brought up some pretty solid evidence of the dude being a Nazi:
View Original Postbusterbeam wrote:Looking it up again, Carius was drafted. However, it's very easy to find his complaints about the "defamation of the German soldier in film" and the "desecration" of Nazi memorials celebrating his "comrades" who "fought to be saved from communism". I think it's pretty clear the man was, in fact, a capital-N Nazi and made no attempts to hide it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrZCIiXg7wQ

So what do you think Carius should have done? Let Stalin conquer the world and do whatever bloodthirsty things he wished, so he can keep his hands clean of having been on the same side of the war as Hitler?

But by supporting the Nazis, he was letting Hitler conquer the world and do whatever bloodthirsty things he wished. If the dude wasn't a Nazi sympathizer (which he was), he should have just left the country as soon as he could.

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Postby Lavinius » Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:13 pm

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:However, it's very easy to find his complaints about the "defamation of the German soldier in film" and the "desecration" of Nazi memorials celebrating his "comrades" who "fought to be saved from communism". I think it's pretty clear the man was, in fact, a capital-N Nazi and made no attempts to hide it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrZCIiXg7wQ

I can't agree at all that it makes someone a "capital-N" Nazi to have fought against Stalinism or to defend one's country against foreign conquest. Nor can I condemn him for wanting the memory of the people who died for him and alongside him not be defiled (even when those comrades were capital-N Nazis, as many of them certainly were). Certainly he had a biased, and unbalanced view of the war. So did anyone who fought in it.

(I'm afraid I don't have time to listen through the eniter 9-&-a-half hour audiobook to find the relevant context in case there's something more specific or damning.)

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:But by supporting the Nazis, he was letting Hitler conquer the world and do whatever bloodthirsty things he wished. If the dude wasn't a Nazi sympathizer (which he was), he should have just left the country as soon as he could.

Certainly, but note that 1) at least those bloodthirsty things weren't going to be done to him or those he loved, and 2) by rising in the German army he was placing himself ever more in a position where he had ever more moral control of the situation. I'm not saying that Carius was secretly planning to overthrow Hitler, but it is, all other things being equal (and they are equal, since we're admitting indefinitely high levels of bloodthirsty conquest either way), better to be alive than dead, and better to be in a position of power (where he could, for instance, stop or inhibit war crimes from occuring) than to be in a position of powerlessness (where someone else, perhaps a more devout believer in Hitler, would be making that call).
And yes, running away is absolutely a valid option, and probably the better one, but it would have done nothing to stop the bloodthirsty conquest from occurring (unless everyone on both sides ran away, which is the ideal end to almost any war, but sadly very rarely happens). And it wouldn't have done anything to protect those he cared about either.
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Postby BusterMachine4 » Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:26 pm

I think we're going in circles with this. You think the German soldier dude was a noble, upstanding guy, I think he was an unapologetic Nazi, and neither one of our opinions is going to change.

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Postby Lavinius » Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:03 pm

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:I think we're going in circles with this. You think the German soldier dude was a noble, upstanding guy, I think he was an unapologetic Nazi, and neither one of our opinions is going to change.

I'm glad you said this, because I was realizing that I really do need to clarify what exactly my position is because I've been feeling I've been defending him far more than I mean to!

No. My intent is not to say Carius* was a good person, or that he did nothing wrong, nor that he made the right decision. The only thing I mean to say is that, given the difficult circumstances, his decisions cannot be assumed (until evidence to the contrary is provided) to have been made out of an evil, hateful will, and that they are not decisions so obviously reprehensible as to make it fair to call him a Nazi in the same sense that Hitler, Mengele, Goebbels, death camp guards &c. were Nazis.
All I'm saying, in short, is that you can't put Cairus and Hitler into anywhere near the same moral category (or level of hell, if that's a clear metaphor).

*Or, rather, the ideal non-fanatic WWII German/Soviet/Japanese... even /American soldier, of whom I've been taking Carius as a possible example; what Carius himself was like is kind of beside the point
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Postby BusterMachine4 » Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:17 pm

Okay, so this is less of a debate about Miyazaki and more of a general moral question. Got it.

I guess I can sympathize with your views to some degree. The people who served Hitler, Stalin, and Tojo during WW2 were nowhere near as bad as the men themselves. But at the same time, it doesn't mean the soldiers are blameless, and it doesn't mean that the soldiers didn't commit some pretty nasty acts themselves. But this is getting really off-topic.

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Postby pwhodges » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:55 am

To be blunt, I'd be interested (and no, I don't wish for it to happen!) to see how well some of the high-minded criticism in this thread would stand up if the people making it were in the actual position of living in a country run by a tyrant being attacked by another country run by a tyrant. It's easy to be pure-minded when you really are not at any risk for it.
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Postby Zusuchan » Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:23 am

^Hail.

As an Estonian, I have a good example of the whole "generic soldier just trying to protect their country from an evil tyrant" thing-the year 1944 and the Baltic offensive, in which the USSR and Nazi Germany fought also in Estonia. Now, Russia and Estonia do not have a particularly amicable history for many reasons, mostly just the fact that Russia has been a rather consistent ruler of Estonia (it was Russia who had to be defeated in the Estonian Independence War, for example). Estonia didn't really have a good and amicable relationship with Germany, who has also had control of Estonia, either. However, many Estonians considered the USSR as someone who could legitimately take Estonia under its control once it had defeated Nazi Germany (a completely justified concern and one that came to truth in reality) and because the control of Russia was a far more recent and bitter memory, many Estonians voluntarily joined the Wehrmacht (in addition to those who had been involuntarily forced to do so) just so as to prevent Russia's domination over Estonia. Now, does this mean that them, whether meaning to or not, supporting an inhuman, brutal regime is justified just because they were trying to do what they considered the best? No. But neither does it mean they were Nazi sympathizers or that they are somehow immediately equatable to the most brutal horrors of the Nazi regime. Of course there were real, legitimate Estonian Nazis and yes, there were concentration camps in Estonia too, but not every soldier deserves to be demonized or harshly criticized for what they did. (And seeing how Stalin's rule of Estonia started with stuff, like, you know, a portion of the population deciding to relocate themselves to Siberia on a whim, they had reasons to become members of the Wehrmacht.)

(Edit: My point with this history lesson was supposed to be that simple dichotomies of "right" and "wrong" do not always exist in wartimes, especially in fights between two totalitarian governments, not that fascism was cool or awesome in any way. Apologies for any misunderstandings.)

I'm not someone who thinks Miyazaki is a super woke dude or that him having made a pretty interestingly innocent comic about the Germans and the Soviets is a fact that should be glossed over and I understand busterbeam's intent on making that fact known (though it was made known in a strange way, but whatever, I guess). I do consider the seeming innocence in the manga uncomfortable and even a bit disgusting, but I'm not going to say him daring to portray the Germans and the Soviets as anything else than pure evil and talking with a German soldier makes him an evil or even a bad person. It just means he's a complicated person, and I think busterbeam put it well-he dislikes war, but enjoys its aesthetics, leading to contradictions in his work.

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Postby baldur » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:32 pm

View Original PostLavinius wrote:I can't agree at all that it makes someone a "capital-N" Nazi to have fought against Stalinism or to defend one's country against foreign conquest. Nor can I condemn him for wanting the memory of the people who died for him and alongside him not be defiled (even when those comrades were capital-N Nazis, as many of them certainly were). Certainly he had a biased, and unbalanced view of the war. So did anyone who fought in it.

I'm sorry, what? You are aware that it was the Nazis that invaded the Soviet Union, correct? It was only the largest (and deadliest) military operation ever conducted in the history of warfare. Foreign conquest was their forté. You can take a look at Come and See (1985) if you want a little taste of what they did there.

View Original PostLavinius wrote: I'm not saying that Carius was secretly planning to overthrow Hitler, but it is, all other things being equal (and they are equal, since we're admitting indefinitely high levels of bloodthirsty conquest either way), better to be alive than dead, and better to be in a position of power (where he could, for instance, stop or inhibit war crimes from occuring) than to be in a position of powerlessness (where someone else, perhaps a more devout believer in Hitler, would be making that call).

This is a bunch of crap and you know it. Fighting in Hitler's war would assuredly not be an effective way of combatting fascism. As a matter of fact, blowing your brains out right then and there (and maybe taking some others out with you while you're at it) would be a better way of doing that as a German soldier. Let's not pretend otherwise.

I'm not surprised that Miyazaki has some "problematic" Japanese nationalist views, personally. As for Anno, I don't know much about his ideological leanings and frankly I wouldn't know what to expect. Dude can be kind of a tough nut to crack. I'm really only properly familiar with one ideological quote of his, where he criticizes American imperialism and implies he's sympathetic to Marxism (?)

Anno: I don’t hate Star Trek, but I’m not impressed by it. You can see the arrogance of America in it. It's a story of influencing or enlightening native peoples of destination planets, that features romance with their most admirable woman in a front-line way. I feel like this is American imperialism itself.

Komatsu: More than imperialism, it’s the imposition of a Christian sense of justice.

Anno: It's like Marxists are portrayed as being primitives. I can't get used to that kind of American worldview. I think the Enterprise is cool, but that's all.


Can't say I disagree with him here, lol
Last edited by baldur on Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby busterbeam » Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:59 pm

"Christian sense of justice" is a fantastic way of putting it (that's the Japan Sinks book author btw!)

Also, I figured that framing my post that way drew more attention to the manga than if I said "hey, Miyazaki made this WW2 tank manga, it's about [blahblah], oh btw it also has these elements"; everyone beyond WW2 nerds would've tuned out already. I think less people will get to use Miyazaki as a blunt weapon against "problematic" authors (like a recent "Miyazaki is a saint, Isayama is a fascist" piece I saw) if I spread it around.
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Postby BusterMachine4 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:19 pm

I don't know if Anno's views on the original Star Trek really make sense. As a former Star Trek fan, I heavily disagree with them.

In my opinion, the show isn't about American imperialism or evangelical Christianity: quite the opposite, in fact. Rodenberry was a strong opponent of the Vietnam War, and he was also a strong believer in atheism. The plot of Star Trek isn't this simplistic "Kirk conquers savages and screws their women" narrative that its critics often brand it as. Actually, most of the plots are downright anti-imperialist, with the crew deciding not to interfere with less-developed civilizations and even stopping other interstellar powers from interfering. The Prime Directive, at its core, is a non-interventionist idea. I don't think you can get any more anti-Imperialist than "no one should interfere with the natural progress of a society."

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Postby Lavinius » Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:34 pm

View Original Postbaldur wrote:I'm sorry, what? You are aware that it was the Nazis that invaded the Soviet Union, correct? It was only the largest (and deadliest) military operation ever conducted in the history of warfare. Foreign conquest was their forté. You can take a look at Come and See (1985) if you want a little taste of what they did there.

Marxism-Leninism makes a global revolution a central tenant, and the Soviets had absolutely no trouble trying to spread that Revolution violently. Fascist regimes came to power, and their excesses were tolerated, in Europe largely because they represented themselves as an effective response to the threat of communism.
During the early stages of the WWII period, the Soviets making beginning a westward push into Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_occupation_of_the_Baltic_states_(1940), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_occupation_of_Bessarabia_and_Northern_Bukovina), resuming the attempts they had made at the end of WWI; the Nazis at first cooperated/acquiesced with with the corresponding eastern push they also desired.
(See also the Spanish Civil War from 1936-1939, where the Nazis and Soviets supported the opposing sides).
It's not like the Nazis invaded out of nowhere. Both states had bloodthirsty ambitions over the same territories, and both had ideological demands that they conquer and counter-ideological demands that they stop the other from conquering. The Soviets were interested in expanding west, and it was only a matter of time- or, at least, that's certainly the plausible oversimplification the heavily propagandized media available to the German on the street would have been telling him.
This is a bunch of crap and you know it. Fighting in Hitler's war would assuredly not be an effective way of combatting fascism. As a matter of fact, blowing your brains out right then and there (and maybe taking some others out with you while you're at it) would be a better way of doing that as a German soldier. Let's not pretend otherwise.

I didn't say it was an effective way of fighting fascism. I said it was an effective way of fighting communism, and tertiarily puts one in a position of greater leverage regarding the process of fascism than if one had done otherwise.
And yes, that's another option worthy of consideration. Certainly, something like that was the only morally acceptable course of action for death camp guards and the like.

Regarding Anno, tbh I find pretty much everything he says in interviews bizarre and difficult to make sense of. He and I are on completely different wavelengths.
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Postby baldur » Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:15 pm

I wouldn't argue that the Soviet Union was not preparing for war with Nazi Germany - it definitely was. And as it turns out, they evidently were right to do so.

View Original PostLavinius wrote: The Soviets were interested in expanding west, and it was only a matter of time- or, at least, that's certainly the plausible oversimplification the heavily propagandized media available to the German on the street would have been telling him.

Of course it is, but I don't care about whatever lies Nazis use to justify themselves. Obviously, I wouldn't expect some German soldier of this time to feel similarly - but I'm not the one arguing for him not being a Nazi.

View Original PostLavinius wrote:
And yes, that's another option worthy of consideration. Certainly, something like that was the only morally acceptable course of action for death camp guards and the like.

Well, I'm certainly glad we agree there.

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Postby Lavinius » Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:02 pm

View Original Postbaldur wrote:Of course it is, but I don't care about whatever lies Nazis use to justify themselves. Obviously, I wouldn't expect some German soldier of this time to feel similarly - but I'm not the one arguing for him not being a Nazi.

The Soviet state had it as its express goal to spread communism to the entire world, that certainly wasn't a lie.
I mean, it depends on what you mean by Nazi.
Carius certainly was a soldier by his own volition under the Nazi regime, if that's your definition.
He was not a member of the Nazi Party (as far as I've seen) though that doesn't by itself say much.
But the question I think we're supposed to be asking is whether he was a Nazi in the ethical sense- whether he had an irremissably evil will, whether he supported, or was sympathetic to, the genocide of the Jews, the depopulation of the Slavic lands, and other such atrocities, whether he committed war crimes, &c.. I don't know whether he did or not (and he likely wouldn't admit to it after the fact even if he did), but no one's yet brought forth any actual claim that he did.
All I've been trying to say is that choosing to be a soldier by his own volition under the Nazi regime does not by itself prove that he had an irremissably evil will, that he supported or perpetrated the Holocaust, the genocidal aspects of Generalplan Ost &c. because there were also morally legitimate motives that could have led him to make such a choice. I'm not saying his choice was the best one he could have made, or that it absolves him from wrongdoing. All I'm saying is that making the choice to serve in the army doesn't by itself prove that he or any of his comrades were horribly evil men.
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Avatar: Dróttningin ok Drótinninn Eldíu (this is my last cope~)


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