Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby Shun » Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:40 am

Yep, before writing I have reread your posts "Blue goo" and "Give me wings", and I reviewed the scene in 2.0, I understand what you mean: because of the 9° Angel Asuka comes into contact with the part of himself asleep and forgotten. I don't remember if you wrote it in your posts, however in the storyboards of that scene the other entity in the Plug should have spoken with Asuka with the voice of Kaworu.
https://www.gwern.net/docs/eva/2010-crc#asuka-in-unit-03
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But it isn't the only solution. In fact, they (Khara) may have thought makes Kaworu talk to Asuka for two other reasons: because Kaworu is the only Angel who speaks and Akira Ishida is the only seiyuu of the Angels, so why give money to others people when you can give money to Ishida / Kaworu? This make sense.

Also, why use only one color (red) for the eyes of destroyers (Shinji, Kaworu, Rei), while for the eyes of protectors (Asuka, Mari) two colors are used (green and blue)? My scheme is simple and effective.
Blue is the color chosen for angelic infections, in fact it is used both for the ninth angel that contaminates 03 and for 09 that contaminates the Wunder.

As I said, your theory is interesting, but this thing about "awakened eyes" has put a doubt in my head. We'll see.
Btw, an excel summary table would be helpful, with Children, colors, Adams, zoas, etc what do you think?

I'm wait your post about cycle's nature!
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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby UrsusArctos » Sun May 17, 2020 2:10 am

Well, wow. I'll have to re-read everything here and redigest this, but this is an astounding amount of analysis. Very well done! I'd be shocked if at least some of this doesn't turn out to work in 3UAT.

(One does have to ask, “Why didn’t Seele have Mark.09 neutralize both of Wille’s Evas before attempting such a delicate procedure?”, and… beats me, honestly.)


Both Eva-02 and Eva-08 were effectively out of the way when Eva-13 ascended and Mark.09 began its attack on Wunder, and there was no point in trying to fight the Evas and risk getting destroyed when they could just get on to the Wunder and finish extracting Lilith's soul/taking control of the vessel for their own purposes, and turn the captured Wunder or the merged Eva-13/Mark.09 against the two Evas if they posed a threat. If it weren't for Wunder's wingtip dragging on the surface, Eva-02 wouldn't have been able to jump aboard and tackle Mark.09 anyway.
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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Sat May 30, 2020 5:34 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:

So, we have Eva-13’s transcendental Awakening contrasted against Kaworu’s complete, blood-soaked Fall. Also note: Evangelion 13, 13th Angel. These things are connected.

...\

I imposed our favorite gods on top of it this time for the hell of it. (Here’s the unaltered original.) Pay special attention to Kaworu and Eva-13. Kaworu, as Urthona, is in the top sphere, which is all “Adam” and untouched by “Satan” influence. Alternatively, Eva-13 is Urizen, in the bottom sphere, which is all “Satan” and untouched by “Adam”.

Does any of the “Kaworu falls, Eva-13 rises” stuff make actual sense if this image is consulted? Well… Kaworu/Urthona’s starting position is at the top. Eva-13/Urizen’s starting position is at the bottom. Through Gendo’s bizarre machinations, Kaworu falls from 1st to 13th, and Eva-13 awakens. In other words, the one on the top falls, and the one on the bottom rises -- they trade places, effectively. It's not merely a matter of reassigning an ordinal here, either -- both of these entities undergo some sort of (meta)physical transformation. Kaworu actually gets physically ill, right before Eva-13 starts to go through the throes of Awakening (with the first step being the shift to red in the eyes and eye stripe). What in the world is happening?

While I don’t understand the exact mechanism that allows Gendo to MAKE it happen, or why Kaworu would start to show up as a '13th Angel that shouldn't exist' on scanners, the overall gist of things is apparent enough. Kaworu possesses some purity of quality that Eva-13 lacks, and this is somehow drained out of him to enable Eva-13 to ascend. A sort of alchemical transfer of… essence, for lack of better term. (Possibly relevant in some way, even if only as a thematic tie-in: the Key of Nebuchadnezzar, which represents both Kaworu's original body and Gendo's complete dominion over Urthona, incorporates a syringe... a tool that is used to transfer contents from one place to another.) This sacrificial aspect was clearly planned, and a matter of open conspiracy between Gendo/Fuyutsuki and Seele. I’m slightly less clear on why this “draining” inevitably results in Kaworu’s death (as implied by "deicide"), but that’s something that can be worked out in time.

Need to read the rest of the thread before responding again, but wanted to mention this:

Unit-013 changing from colors mimicking Unit-01s (both pre and post-awakened Unit-01, namely purple, bright green, and a crimson red) to becoming blindingly radiant white in tandem with the events of the Fourth Impact (both Eva-13 eating the reduced down bloody fetus of Lilith+12th Angel, as well as with Kaworu's head exploding into a bloody pulp that paints his side of the cockpit with blood) serve as an obvious reference to what happens during the End Time. That is, when the garments of humanity are washed with the blood of the Lamb and become a 100% pure white, cleansing us of our sin and our imperfect mortal, corporeal nature as perfect divine, eternal souls housed in flesh in a process that restores us to perfect divinity, and unifies us with God. Heaven is the reconciliation with and reunification of humanity with God, and Hell is both the punishment that follows the result of failure to reconcile with God (failure to achieve Infinity?), the suffering that takes place before actually finally dying, and being eternally separated from and never unifying with God.

I feel like that likely has something to do with what's going on. I also find the coincidence that two Spears of Longinus (which, at least in the original are associated with insemination of the SoLs at least somewhat, or otherwise are at least undeniably very phallic) are impaled in an Eva piloted by two Yaoi-bait pilots isn't something we can just ignore. Asuka is seen using something akin to Cassisus earlier in the film, associating it at least in part with femininity, as well as the fact that both spears are required to do something that likely involves creation and at least involves more than simply penetrating something for it only to go into stasis or die (like with Longinus). Not to mention both types of Spears are named after Gaius Cassius Longinus, and Cassisus comes before Longinus (which mirrors the Gnostic beliefs that the Sophia came before the Demiurge). Then again, that last bit is really grasping at straws. Either way, meant to evoke homosexual imagery of some kind? I dunno, forget about it, lol.

In any case, the fact that Eva-13 has a dual-plug entry system but lacks any kind of core seems awfully suspicious. Gendo remarks that Misato and WILLE reacted exactly as they'd expected and desired for them too. Unit-08' and Unit-02' wind up being combined into a single Unit in the next movie, assuming the idea wasn't scrapped. If their cores become one core, and it also relies on a dual-entry plug system, then the possibility arises that Mari and Asuka become assimilated within that core, and then that core and Unit-01's core, which contains two cores, could theoretically be placed within Unit-013. Then, somebody (Gendo?_ could use the fact Kaworu is dead/headless to take his position using the Key of Nebuchadnezzar in one plug, and then use Shinji in the other plug to reawaken Unit-013. This gets all the other souls of the Adams + Lilith within the awoken Unit-13. Perhaps Gendo wouldn't take Kaworu's spot, but instead the Key of Nebudchadnezzar would be used to allow Lilith's soul to take Kaworu's spot.

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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby Reichu » Sat May 30, 2020 11:03 am

View Original PostStrokeMeGoat wrote:an obvious reference to what happens during the End Time.

Obvious to you, perhaps, but not to godless heathens / unwashed philistines such as myself. :devil: (You'd think that Evangelion would have gotten me to read the Bible by now, but... sigh.) Anyway, thanks for pointing this out! Cool stuff. I'll look deeper into the allusions you mention.

As you note, the Spear of Longinus likely retains its masculine associations from NGE, while the Spear of Cassius is... almost blatantly feminine. It's not just the fact that Asuka wields the heat spear in Q.

SPOILER: Show
Image

It's the way you can read the blade as a highly stylized vulva, complete with a vaginal opening. (The gem is the clitoris; the rest falls in place from there.)

The fact that opposing spears were apparently "supposed" to be used together, and that we saw two male pilots synchronizing inside an Eva that has a female incarnation (Eva-13's association with Asuka) makes me think that there is something alchemical going on, but I suck at alchemy so I'm not entirely clear how this works.

Why do you say that Eva-13 "lacks any kind of core"? The structure is implied to be there, since Kaworu impales Eva-13 right where a core would be. And despite the seeming lack of effect in Q, this action did do SOMETHING...

Shin spoiler  SPOILER: Show
as we can see a glow where the spears enter the body.

Image


There's also a strong possibility that Eva-13 is, SIGH, yet another full-core being (which doesn't negate the possibility of there being a distinctive core as in "red ball in the chest"; and I really wish "core" had never been co-opted to refer to an entire SUBSTANCE as opposed to a discrete structure.....), and the reason the part of the body we see -- the "wings" -- doesn't have the live core texture is simply because the core ISN'T live. I still need to get around to making a post on this.

Regarding the material covered in your last paragraph, my own thoughts go something like this:

Shin spoilers  SPOILER: Show
3+1's events will lead into a massive merging event that reunites Lilith's body and soul, rejoins the four Adams, and brings Gendo and Yui back together. Lilith joined with the Adams joined with Mortal Man & Woman. I posted a couple of relevant images over here, but didn't explain them in the context of that thread yet. The first one shows Lilith's paralleled spiritual and physical resurrections, anticipating the rejoining of body with soul. The second anticipates Evas 01 and 13 being used to (in addition to resurrecting Lilith) create a seven-part being called the True Evangelion. (I'm a little annoyed that the horns aren't split neatly between 01 and 13 the same ways the eyes and souls are, but... oh well. I group 01 and 06 together on the left simply on account of both Evas having a preexisting mysterious connection to Lilith.)

Image
Image

My own best guess for how this being comes into existence involves the following rough sequence of events:

1) Gendo uses the Key on himself (gross) and enters Eva-13 (the "unbirthing" imagery here doesn't leave much to the imagination). This places two souls within Eva-13 (Kaworu and Gendo), enabling any necessary dual-Spear shenanigans.
2) Final Impact is triggered.
3) Eva-02 and -08 overlap to oppose Eva-13. They fail and both get absorbed into Eva-13 one way or another. (If the two Evas' cores remain separate, as was the case when Eva-01 combined with Eva-00's core, then a Gunbuster reference is possible. If Asuka is the "true owner" of Eva-13's body, she might attempt to take advantage of this after a normal confrontation has failed; forcing Eva-02's core to absorb her, and then relying on Mari to plant the core into Eva-13. This does not have the desired effect, and Mari would be forced to join the party soon after.)
4) With her warriors gone, and the Wunder's own firepower ineffective against Eva-13, Misato is forced to sortie Eva-01 with Shinji inside as a last resort.
5) Of course, she's playing right into Gendo's plans, and 01 and 13 fuse together into the True Evangelion (maybe after having a RahXephon-style sing-off).

Far as an Eva-13 pilot goes, trailer 2 gives me the feeling that it's going to be Rei Q. When the trailer 2 cuts are ordered sequentially, we get a bunch that are toward the beginning of the film, then a large gap, and then scenes happening during Third Impact. The last cut from the first grouping is this:

Image

While we don't technically know which Rei this is, it's implied to be Rei Q. Observe:

Image

Paralleled shots. (Kudos to Velorex for noticing this one.) The one in Q happens in the context of Rei realizing, thanks to a rather scary-looking Asuka, that she doesn't have to stay in Mk.9 and wait around for some horrible fate; she actually CAN self-determine. Shin seems to be making Rei's journey a bit more difficult than "just walk away and you're free". Based on Rei 2's words in Ha, along with visuals from Until You Come To Me, it seems very likely that Rei Q depends on regular treatments in her capsule to live. For this reason, she'll be forced to return to Nerv instead of defecting to Wille. Another set of parallels hints at her fate:

Image
^ Q

Image
^ Shin

I'll just quote a prior write-up I did on the matter (from my analysis of Shin Trailer #2):

The end of Q left it an open question whether Rei would pick up the SDAT after Shinji dropped it, and this seems to confirm that she did. This shot mirrors the one from 3.0, where Shinji was looking at the SDAT after Ritsuko gave it to him.

Without additional context, this is a little ominous… Back in Q, the SDAT was the sole token Shinji was left with of “his” Rei. Remember that in 2.0, Shinji actually threw the SDAT into the trash, and he only got it back because Rei found it and took it into battle with her, and ultimately it somehow followed Rei’s soul into Eva-01’s entry plug. And then, later in Q, Shinji “discards” the SDAT once again — albeit for entirely different reasons — and, because of a different Rei, it’s ended up back in his possession again. The fact that he’s looking at it in a very similar way as when he first got it back… Is this maybe a hint that something happened to Rei Q?


So then, feasibly, in the shot with Fuyutsuki, we're getting a dark reversal of Rei's moment from Q. Fuyutsuki could be telling her that, no, she doesn't have any free will -- she's just a puppet who doesn't even have a soul to call her own. Or who knows. Whatever the case, this would also provide a dark recurrence of Fuyutsuki's moment with Shinji; he's doing his part to make it psychologically inevitable that Shinji/Rei will pilot the Eva they're supposed to.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby Lavinius » Sun May 31, 2020 8:11 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:The fact that opposing spears were apparently "supposed" to be used together, and that we saw two male pilots synchronizing inside an Eva that has a female incarnation (Eva-13's association with Asuka) makes me think that there is something alchemical going on, but I suck at alchemy so I'm not entirely clear how this works.

They could be... bombarding Eva-13 with masculine energy so that it changes sex so Gendou can inhabit it and use it as a body to mate with Yui?
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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby Reichu » Sun May 31, 2020 8:45 pm

View Original PostLavinius wrote:They could be... bombarding Eva-13 with masculine energy so that it changes sex so Gendou can inhabit it and use it as a body to mate with Yui?

That'd be hot. :nyao:

For whatever it's worth, the gender-bending weirdness goes both ways here, what with Yui and Rei occupying Luvah's body.

Luvah -> incarnated as male (Shinji) -> given soul of Yui (Lilin woman) -> also given soul of Rei (female incarnation of Lilith)
--versus--
Urizen -> incarnated as female (Asuka) -(speculah)-> given soul of Kaworu (male incarnation of Adam/Urthona) -> also given soul of Gendo (Lilin man)

One element of this "gender-swapping" that might be important is how, quite possibly, all three of the surviving (non-Urthona) Adams may have split out of "Mega-Adam" at Second Impact only to immediately undergo fusion with something else. Luvah's case is already written up for this thread: he merged with Lilith's surgically removed core. I still need to write up what I think happened with Urizen and Tharmas, but, for the short and completely unjustified version: I suspect that most of Urthona was divided between them somehow. Urthona's head "overlapped" with Urizen (resulting in the additional set of eyes), and Urthona's body "overlapped" with Tharmas (providing an explanation for why the neck and head resemble Lilith while the rest of the body looks typically Adamsian). Suspiciously, Mark.06 and Eva-13 also have a couple of things in common that they don't share with Eva-01: they're both used for Seele's True Evangelion (with the one that is a greater percentage Urthona given greater priority and used first, though I suppose it helps that Tharmas isn't Satan), and they're the only Evas we see Urthona's incarnation piloting. This also makes greater sense of the Key of Nebuchadnezzar being called a "spare" -- it's a tiny remnant(???) of Urthona that didn't get taken into Tharmas or Urizen.

In any case, this idea would bring 01 and 13's counterpart nature all the way round.

Eva-01 / Luvah
- original soul is incarnated as a male
- assimilates the spiritual vessel (core) of female-incarnated Lilith at Second Impact
- ensouled with a Lilin woman
- becomes (via the chest, where core is) container for Lilith's spiritual resurrection at Near Third Impact
- also ensouled with female-incarnated Lilith at Near Third Impact

Eva-13 / Urizen
- original soul is incarnated as a female
- assimilates part of the physical vessel (head) of male-incarnated Adam/Urthona at Second Impact
- becomes (via the head) container for Lilith's physical resurrection at Fourth Impact
- ensouled with a male-incarnated Adam/Urthona at Fourth Impact
- also ensouled with a Lilin man

Male-female, body-soul, Adam-Lilith... Transformations, things being moved from one container to another... Much alchemy, very :dizzy:.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby Reichu » Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:26 pm

I threw together a compilation of visual comparisons between Mari, Eva-05, and Mark.06 (guest-starring the Spear of Cassius, Eva-08, and Lilith). This would have been useful earlier in the thread, when I matched the pilots to their respective Adams, but better late than never, I suppose. The Lilith comparison is a bit of a tease, I suppose...

open in separate window for biggest  SPOILER: Show
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What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:44 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Obvious to you, perhaps, but not to godless heathens / unwashed philistines such as myself. :devil: (You'd think that Evangelion would have gotten me to read the Bible by now, but... sigh.) Anyway, thanks for pointing this out! Cool stuff. I'll look deeper into the allusions you mention.

Eh, I just do a lot of repeat readings on Judeo-Christian lore, Gnosticism/Hermeticism/the Kabbalah, etc., lol. Given the influences of alchemy on NTE this time around, some good reading material that will probably help yield some insight is Carl Jung's psychoanalytic theories and whatnot. His views on psychology incorporate a lot of world mythology that shares with one another and is influenced by the unconscious human psyche, Gnosticism and Alchemy, and he has a habit of expressing a lot of things in alchemical terms. Even if you don't discover any specific links to NTE/NGE besides what already kind of classically existed, perhaps thinking of the world through his perspective might help some things click into place for you. Aside from that, it's all super interesting anyway.

edit:
Doing some further reading on the Tree of Life brings this up:
The tree of life first appears in Genesis 2:9 and 3:22-24 as the source of eternal life in the Garden of Eden, from which access is revoked when man is driven from the garden. It then reappears in the last book of the Bible, the Book of Revelation, and most predominantly in the last chapter of that book (Chapter 22) as a part of the new garden of paradise. Access is then no longer forbidden, for those who "wash their robes" (or as the textual variant in the King James Version has it, "they that do his commandments") "have right to the tree of life" (v.14). A similar statement appears in Rev 2:7, where the tree of life is promised as a reward to those who overcome. Revelation 22 begins with a reference to the "pure river of water of life" which proceeds "out of the throne of God". The river seems to feed two trees of life, one "on either side of the river" which "bear twelve manner of fruits" "and the leaves of the tree were for healing of the nations" (v.1-2).[15] Or this may indicate that the tree of life is a vine that grows on both sides of the river, as John 15:1 would hint at.

Of course, this is likely a metaphor for the eternal life promised by God/Christ that occurs when one accepts Jesus Christ as the Lord God and as their savior. They are then washed with the blood of the Lamb, which erases from them the stain of sin... their garments being a symbol for their soul, and pure white being symbolic of the stain of sin being washed from it, as well as a symbol for becoming divine or "like God". The new garden of paradise is the reunification with god, and having access to the tree of life once again of course allows for life eternal.

Interesting here is the mention of the ToL in the new garden of paradise bearing 12 manner of fruits. The tree of life bears 12 manner of fruits, and the tree of knowledge bears an additional 1 fruit, making 13? How exactly it might line up with NTE, if meant to at all, requires further reading. I mean, Kaworu only becomes the 13th angel after Unit-13 ingests the 12th angel when it had assimilated with Lilith.

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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby Giji Shinka » Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:51 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:I threw together a compilation of visual comparisons between Mari, Eva-05, and Mark.05 (guest-starring the Spear of Cassius, Eva-08, and Lilith). This would have been useful earlier in the thread, when I matched the pilots to their respective Adams, but better late than never, I suppose. The Lilith comparison is a bit of a tease, I suppose...

open in separate window for biggest  SPOILER: Show
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I'm not sure I can buy these visual similarities yet. Hopefully your future analysis on Mari and Adams can convince me.
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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby Reichu » Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:23 am

View Original PostGiji Shinka wrote:I'm not sure I can buy these visual similarities yet. Hopefully your future analysis on Mari and Adams can convince me.

The image is meant to go along with this post. It's not supposed to be convincing independent of all other context. The context is specifically "given these indications that there is something funny going on with the pilots suggesting they might actually be the Adams, can they be individually matched to the Adams without difficulty?" And the answer is of course "yes".
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby Giji Shinka » Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:43 pm

Ah, okay.
Since this thread is partially about which Eva units/pilots are specific Adams, do you think that units-00, 02, 03, 04, 05 and 08 are related to certain "Adam-units" or pilots (Mari, Eva-05 and 08 seems to have some similarities to Mark.06 based on the image you provided) or are they just generic/mass produced clones of an Adam/Lilith? And what about Mark.04 and the various forms it takes throughout 3.0 and 4.0?
clones of Eva-04, who is likely a clone of an Adam?
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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby Derantor » Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:31 pm

Not sure if this is relevant, but I just stumbled on the fact that pre-adolescent children can identify their mother and their siblings by smell - this might explain Mari's comments regarding Shinji, one way or another, if they indeed share history at the Artificial Evolution Laboratory.

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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby ShinjiStranglesAsuka » Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:40 am

Image

Just realized that EVA-13 turns red for a split second before becoming a Radiant Giant. Maybe there is something to this Urizen after all.

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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby Giji Shinka » Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:24 am

View Original PostShinjiStranglesAsuka wrote:Just realized that EVA-13 turns red for a split second before becoming a Radiant Giant. Maybe there is something to this Urizen after all.

Unit-13 turns red for a second because it's whole body is becoming core material (It's white appearance soon after is just more intense version of core material), same as Unit-01 and Failures of infinity (Who look like Unit-01).
I think Unit-13 becoming red/white is just common thing among awakened Adam-units.
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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby Reichu » Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:53 am

View Original PostGiji Shinka wrote:Unit-13 turns red for a second because it's whole body is becoming core material (It's white appearance soon after is just more intense version of core material), same as Unit-01 and Failures of infinity (Who look like Unit-01).

I've never heard this idea before. Why do you think the white glow means "core"? When Eva-01 pseudo-evolves in 2.0, Ritsuko specifies that its body is becoming an energy condensate. Presumably this is the same thing, since Eva-13 goes purple and red (pseudo-evolution stage 1) immediately before flashing red and then turning white (said to be stage 3+, whatever that means). Remember also that we did not actually see Eva-01 transition from stage 1 to stage 2; the transition happened offscreen, so she may have flashed red for an instant as well.
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Postby Giji Shinka » Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:05 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:I've never heard this idea before. Why do you think the white glow means "core"?

The reason why I think the white glow is the same as red core, except more intense, is that when Unit-08 grabs onto Unit-13, it's arms start to deteriorate the same way as when Unit-00 grabbed the core of Sahaquiel.
Mari and Rei also have similar deterioration effect on their arms.
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Postby Blockio » Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:53 am

I'd say that's a false positive there; it's probably not touching the core that causes that effect, but everything else around it; the 8th did have a rather substantial ATF up, and 13 was all sorts of stuff going on that could cause this
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Re: Adams, Children, and the Nature of the Cycle

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Postby Giji Shinka » Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:53 am

View Original PostBlockio wrote:and 13 was all sorts of stuff going on that could cause this

I would love to hear an alternative theory since all visuals in the two movies point to white glow being related to core material.
In 3.0, 02 loses it's arm when it's in contact with 01 who is now made of core and 08 loses both it's arms when in contact with 13, who less than a second prior to turning to a radiant giant looks completely red like 01.
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Postby Reichu » Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:09 am

View Original PostGiji Shinka wrote:The reason why I think the white glow is the same as red core, except more intense, is that when Unit-08 grabs onto Unit-13, it's arms start to deteriorate the same way as when Unit-00 grabbed the core of Sahaquiel.
Mari and Rei also have similar deterioration effect on their arms.

Core uses a very, very specific animated "filler". It can be seen on all objects that are actual live cores, and it's similarly seen on everything that is made of core material. (See also this post.) At no point does Eva-13's body use this effect -- it simply glows white. Eva-08's arms are indeed turned into core (this is confirmed by the script and by very close and careful examination of the frames), but Eva-00's arms, despite the otherwise similar visual effect, are not; the floating, drifting "speckles" simply aren't there. (The similarity is IMO very much intentional, and I discussed the reason much earlier in the thread during section about destiny. That section should probably be expanded at some point, because the iconography of the Eighth Angel battle is pretty overwhelming in its reach...)

Again, we're told that evolving to radiant giant means turning to "energy condensate", not core. It's effectively right there in the name (literally "giant of light"), and the "energy" part is emphasized so highly during the transformations that there really isn't any reason at the moment not to accept this at face value. The coreification phenomenon has not been explained at all; there is no rule that says "only something made of core can cause things to turn into core". Lumping distinct but related phenomena together as if they were the same won't get us any closer to what's actually going on. (Note I say "distinct but related" -- I'm not denying a connection, because there could easily be one; but establishing a connection should utilize all of the information we have available.) The awakened Evas turning everything they touch into core may have an implied explanation in the wacky world of alchemy; here's an interesting bit I ran into the other day:

The Tower of Alchemy wrote:The universal medicine is an actual physical substance, produced by alchemical Sages from their own physical bodies. (...) [It is] often referred to as the "red tincture", since it permeates all it touches.

The substance being referred to is the "elixir of life", a theme that comes up a lot when researching NTE's mythological and occult inspirations. I'm still in the midst of said research, so this is all I'll say on the matter for the time being.

Now, there is some evidence that Eva-13 is made of core when it's NOT a radiant giant, in the same way that Eva-01 is made of skin and bones normally. I'm not going to go over all the evidence right now -- I have too many things I need to finish catching up on first -- but for the easiest ones:

(A) The crimson wings. Previously I dismissed the idea that these were made of core on the basis that they lacked the telltale core texture, but I forgot something -- said texture indicates LIVE core. Eva-13 has no A.T. Field, implying it's an empty vessel with no soul. Its core-body being a dull red would make sense in that case.
(B) When Eva-08 pulls out the emergency ejection switch, the base becomes submerged in some kind of dark red ... stuff. Reddish fluid also comes flying out when the switch is pulled. (Cores have both solid and fluid properties -- see for example Eva-02 diving through the Seventh Angel's larger core to disembody the smaller one inside.)

If it's true that Eva-13 is normally some variety of core-being, then this would explain the pinkish flash: that's it transitioning from core (red) to energy condensate (white).
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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