The idea of a timeloop

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:11 pm

You say many, yet so far, I only recall the one beginning/ending shot you've referred to. Care to mention all the others, and why a time loop is what they're pointing towards?
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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:20 pm

View Original Posteldomtom2 wrote:I have to keep repeating this same basic point - Watsonian explanations are not Doylist explanations. You have to explain why so many hints that seem to be pointing to a time loop more than anything else were put in if the actual reason was something completely different.

To be blunt: no we don't. We don't agree with your "so many hints that seem to be pointing to a time loop more than anything else", so for us there is nothing to explain.
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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby eldomtom2 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:15 am

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:You say many, yet so far, I only recall the one beginning/ending shot you've referred to. Care to mention all the others, and why a time loop is what they're pointing towards?

Kaworu's lines. Those massive chalk outlines. The blood stain on the Moon. Probably more that I'm forgetting. And lest we forget, the title of 3.0+1.0, which is extremely blatantly hinting at a time loop unless you take it as referring to the lore despite none of the previous Evangelion titles doing so.

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:13 am

Kaworu's lines: the most we can determine from them is that Shinji and Kaworu have supposedly met before, but Shinji doesn't remember. While this may point to a time loop on the surface, NTE offers us another possibility, memory wiping, first mentioned in Jo and revealed to be an actual plot point in Q. Of course, there's also Reichu's theory

The chalk outline: Didn't the script for Jo telll us that was from 2I? Not sure how a time loop is the conclusion drawn here

Blood stain: Impossible. The stain in NGE was large enough to be visible from Earth, the NTE stain only looked between a few and a dozen meters wide
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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby pwhodges » Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:56 am

View Original Posteldomtom2 wrote:the title of 3.0+1.0, which is extremely blatantly hinting at a time loop

It make no reference at all to the series, which is what you have been trying to link a time loop to. And in any case, there are other explanations which have been proposed and discussed.
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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby Reichu » Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:43 am

Indeed, like the lore-based one Sachi recently proposed. It made me feel like a fool for not thinking of it first; it was staring us in the face for years now.

I'm as perplexed by the attitude that's plagued the fandom as Mr. Tines. How in the world is proposing that some esoteric "looping" mechanism which has not been directly addressed or implicated by the work even a little considered something reasonable to do on the basis of signifiers as vague as call-backs and references to past events? In what universe is this not regarded as self-evidently insane levels of pareidolia and "been watching too much bad TV"?

I've been rewatching Nadia, and I swear it's almost disappointing that conspiracy theories about it and NGE in line with the ones about NGE and NTE aren't a force infesting every element of the conversation online. :p The last shot of the Nadia OP, for example, is almost identical to the storyboarded version of the cut in NGE's OP leading into the title (the final version of which was not so much completely changed as highly stylized). The ending of Nadia's opening sequence... leading into the Eva titles?!? WHY WOULD ANNO DO THIS IF IT DIDN'T MEAN THEY BOTH TAKE PLACE IN THE SAME TIMELINE?!??!!

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby pwhodges » Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:46 am

Don't get it started...
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby eldomtom2 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:51 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:It make no reference at all to the series, which is what you have been trying to link a time loop to. And in any case, there are other explanations which have been proposed and discussed.

The spelling revert, the repeat sign, and "+1.0" are all hinting at something, and I can't see what else except a time loop (leaving out explanations involving the lore which go against all previous patterns in titling).

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby Mr. Tines » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:18 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:WHY WOULD ANNO DO THIS IF IT DIDN'T MEAN THEY BOTH TAKE PLACE IN THE SAME TIMELINE?!??!!
Wasn't that actually going to have been the case, at least at one point in the development process? As things ended up, there's just similar team ( = similar stylistic quirks) plus fossils from early development.

View Original Posteldomtom2 wrote:the repeat sign
I think we went through that when the title was first revealed; the last movie was "Evangelion : Q" and the next one is "Shin Evangelion : ||", not "Shin Evangelion : :||" -- so the colon is as much part of the "||" as it is of the "Q"
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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby Reichu » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:53 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Wasn't that actually going to have been the case, at least at one point in the development process?

I did hear this claim somewhat recently, but no source was provided at the time, and the burden of proof was on them so I didn't look into it either.

the last movie was "Evangelion : Q" and the next one is "Shin Evangelion : ||", not "Shin Evangelion : :||" -- so the colon is as much part of the "||" as it is of the "Q"

Anno really loves titling elements that can be read more than one way, so there's a near-zero chance it's not supposed to be both :|| and ||.

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby eldomtom2 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:39 pm

Further thoughts: The unique spelling of Evangelion is only for the first three Rebuilds' titles, right? So it has to be referring to Evangelion the work, not Evangelion the mecha, as some non-time loop theories suggest.

Also, the English titles as seen in the Rebuilds' "commercial breaks" have a second final N, coloured and recessed back...

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:56 pm

Various signs could be pointing to an internal timeloop within the New Movies, sure. But, at most, any connections between NGE and New Movie Edition are thematic callbacks. For instance, Eva Q felt very much spiritually like an EoE-sequel (seemingly the world at large blames Shinji for an Impact occurring), but nothing like a literal one, given how Impact mechanics are obviously quite different in both series.

Like Reichu pointed out, too: Anno loves various callbacks/cheeky references in his numerous works, whether it's Nadia to NGE, or just music callbacks (e.g. utilizing Saigsu's non-Eva GAINAX work for the New Eva Movies).
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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby eldomtom2 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:05 am

"They're callbacks and references" only goes so far, especially when they're callbacks to the original version of a work.

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby pwhodges » Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:12 am

It can go all the way - it's just your choice to see it differently. Do you want us to start on the connections between Evangelion and Nadia next? Because they're there to be found without looking very hard. Many artists just love carrying common themes and ideas through their work, sometimes treating them similarly and sometimes in a contrasted manner.
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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby eldomtom2 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:43 am

When you're doing the sort of "callbacks" that Rebuild has done, it goes from "hah, neat" to "what are you trying to say?".

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby Blockio » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:49 am

View Original Posteldomtom2 wrote:When you're doing the sort of "callbacks" that Rebuild has done, it goes from "hah, neat" to "what are you trying to say?".

Not really, no. I'm 100% with hodges on this one
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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby Bryan » Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:49 am

"They" are callbacks and references, but "they" are not. Virtually any remake or rehash is going to have inevitable callbacks and references and this is no exception. But those are separate from the signs that point to some sort of time loop. The most obvious being "This time, I'll make you love me.". At least the main purpose of that line can't be to call back to NGE Episode 24 because that wouldn't fit with anything else in any of the movies. Lets not get that so easily conflated.

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby Zoop » Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:54 am

There are hints at a cycle (see Reichu's topics about her theories about it), Kaworu's lines, for example.
I too thought about a loop when the cycle-hints started stacking up. But if you think about it, it wouldn't make sense.
Too many things are actually different for it to be the same continuity.

One of the most direct references is in the second one when the three boys are eating icecream. Kensuke is talking all excited about the new Evangelion and who the pilot is going to be. In NGE, Touji was shitting his pants at this point (because he knows he's the pilot, but really doesn't want to, but it's to help his sister). In the original, he drops the basketball in shock when he hears Kensuke talking, in NTE he's "surprised" he didnt win anything from the popcicle.
Then a few scenes later, Touji is absent from school, because he's releasing his little sister from the hospital.
(and later in the third one, Touji's shirt popping up was kinda freaky, as if they're saying that he still ended up piloting anyway, or it was just to deliberately shock Shinji).

All this was a direct callback to the events in NGE, but also made it really clear that this is going in a different direction, as to make sure it's saying "this is not a remake". Now, I get how such things would seem like a loop (same events playing out, each a bit different every "loop"). But just references like these are not enough. Just like the many iterations of Marvel/DC/etc comics, one contuinity is not necesarily the other, unless directly stated (by Marvel logic, at best, this would be an alternate reality). Hinting/referencing like this is a common thing in media (also frequently referencing other shows), doesn't have to mean anything to the story itself. Other than indirect hints, there isn't anything in-universe that would explain time-travel or some sorts. If shit would actually literally start over after Instrumentality it would defeat the purpose of the whole thing.

Anyway, I like the idea of a loop, but it's much too different to make sense. And not just "it's different this loop" kind of differences, but mechanics that work totally different. Like the resident souls in the cores, no mention of LWM, the Adam's, Seele's origin etc.
Ofcourse we could be proven wrong with the final movie, but I highly doubt it. I think it will debunk "loop-theory" completely (when/if it becomes clear what Kaworu meant with his lines).

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Re: The idea of a timeloop

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Postby Adam » Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:46 am

Perhaps one of the scriptwriters of True Detective Season 1 (2014) has watched Eva, or at least made up a similar theorie. One of the main characters, who has a rather realistic (or as he further explains, in philosophical terms :"pessimistic") personality, makes the following statement during an interrogation in S01E05:

00:31:22
RUSTIN COHLE: You ever heard of something called the M-brane theory, Detectives? It's like, in this universe, we process time linearly. Forward.

But outside of our space-time, from what would be a fourth-dimensional perspective, time wouldn't exist.

And from that vantage, could we attain it, we'd see our space-time would look flattened.

Like a single sculpture of matter in a superposition of every place it ever occupied.

Our sentience just cycling through our lives like carts on a track.

See, everything outside our dimension, that's eternity.

Eternity looking down on us. Now, to us, it's a sphere. But to them, it's a circle.


00:39:34
RUSTIN COHLE: In eternity, where there is no time, nothing can grow, nothing can become. Nothing changes.

So, death created time to grow the things that it would kill.

And you are reborn. But into the same life that you've always been born into.

And how many times have we had this conversation, Detectives?

Well, who knows? When you can't remember your lives, you can't change your lives.

And that is the terrible and secret fate of all life. You're trapped by that nightmare you keep waking up into.


Here you can find the clip on YT (this particular part is starting at 0:45):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7ooqpI3Fr0

Plus this comment:
It has nothing to do with physics. It's just TV writers making dialogue that sounds smart and complex. Rust's philosophy are bits and pieces taken from pop philosophy. Just understand it has no bearing on the real world, it's all for the show and the drama of what's going on in the show.

But he's a really pessimistic guy. His idea of time never ends. It's like torture. People live and relive their lives over and over and over for eternity. Making the same mistakes, going through the same pain. 'Flat circle' just emphasizes that it's one-way. There is no up, down, or backwards. It's just forwards, forever. When you die you come back as you and do it all over again.

The character is kind of crazy and broken.

From here: https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/2p0w0m/eli5_rust_coles_mbrane_theory_true_detective/

So even if these two shows are completely unrelated, putting it into context with Eva, it seems like Kaworu is trying to help Shinji out of this flat circle.


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