Netflix English Dub Discussion

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Re: Netflix English Dub Discussion

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Postby hui43210 » Sat May 22, 2021 1:43 pm

View Original PostJKun76 wrote:
View Original Posthui43210#923398 wrote:
Yes, I'm the only person who doesn't like that dub. Good thing I have Anno's ear and made him switch dub casts. You caught me.

Love how you ignored how I mentioned that every dub in every country ever makes changes. I've never seen anyone but English Anime fans get so torn up about it however.

AWL still didn't work on the Rebuilds either so I don't see why she's in your conversation about why the cast deserved to be changed. Keep in mind, also, Khara didn't do this with any other redub of NGE and many of them got to keep their original casts, even those who also made a lot of changes in their dubs. You have a lot of biases here and it's kind of weird.


Didn't address the fact the dubs aren't literal 1 for 1 translations because that's obvious. Problem is when dubs screw up the intention of work which the ADV dub did often, and while Funimation was better, still took some odd liberties that screwed up the first dub of 3.0.

Didn't mention that AWL wasn't in Rebuild because I know, I don't have a vendetta against her, I just don't agree with her Eva takes. I just don't think either dub is very good. English Anime fans get caught up in this because we suffered through so many censored garbage dubs in the early days of the fandom. Ever heard of 4Kids?

If having a preference for which dub I like is weird, I don't know what to tell you. What I find weird is it was so hard to find anyone who liked the ADV dub on the internet before 2019, but then it seemingly got raised to the same level of the Cowboy Bebop dub after the Netflix version. It's like the Star Wars prequels, nobody had anything nice to say about them until Disney got involved. Then the internet started treating the prequels as the work of an incredible Autor.
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Re: Netflix English Dub Discussion

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Sat May 22, 2021 2:52 pm

View Original Posthui43210 wrote:English Anime fans get caught up in this because we suffered through so many censored garbage dubs in the early days of the fandom. Ever heard of 4Kids?

I'm not part of this argument, but I don't really think that logic makes sense. Just because a lot of dubs used to suck doesn't mean dubs suck now. It's a shame that companies like 4Kids and Manga Entertainment have given the American anime community such a burning hatred of dubs as a whole. I keep hearing sub purists saying things like "Dubs suck because they either censor the show or they have bad acting!" and I think to myself "Have you guys even watched a single dub in the past 15 years?"
What I find weird is it was so hard to find anyone who liked the ADV dub on the internet before 2019, but then it seemingly got raised to the same level of the Cowboy Bebop dub after the Netflix version. It's like the Star Wars prequels, nobody had anything nice to say about them until Disney got involved. Then the internet started treating the prequels as the work of an incredible Autor.

I don't think it's a matter of "They just changed their tune because they wanted to hate on the new thing," more like "Fans of the old thing started coming out of the closet once the new thing being hated on caused their views to no longer feel controversial." Just like you could find prequel fans even before the sequels if you looked hard enough, the same thing was true with fans of the ADV dub. There were a lot of dub viewers back in the pre-Netflix Eva fandom, it's just that the majority opinion being anti-dub and the "dubs suck" undercurrent in the anime community as a whole caused them to not be as visible back then.

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Re: Netflix English Dub Discussion

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Postby WunderBah » Sat May 22, 2021 11:35 pm

View Original Posthui43210 wrote:What I find weird is it was so hard to find anyone who liked the ADV dub on the internet before 2019,

I've actually came across plenty of fans that have expressed fondness over the ADV dub while knowing it's flaws.

but then it seemingly got raised to the same level of the Cowboy Bebop dub after the Netflix version.

Bolded most certainly never happened or at least not to the degree of such, and had more to due with the Netflix being saddled with a host of new issues bought forth between it's aggressively stilted script (leading to arguably inferior performances to ADV) to glaring omissions i.e. Fly Me To The Moon debacle.

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Re: Netflix English Dub Discussion

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Sun May 23, 2021 8:43 am

^ This is also true. Like I said, if you looked outside the EvaGeeks echo chamber, you could find plenty of ADV fans even before Netflix. And from what I've seen, ADV fans are perfectly okay with recognizing that their preferred dub has glaring flaws. They just think that the flaws of Netflix are even worse.

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Re: Netflix English Dub Discussion

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Postby pwhodges » Sun May 23, 2021 11:21 am

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:the EvaGeeks echo chamber,

Why perpetuate this myth? Just look back over the 17 years of posts in the forum and see the arguments about everything and anything, and you'll see that description is laughable.

My view of the ADV dub is that it was one of the better ones of its time, but not the best. It's actually worn quite well, but the Netflix dub is better. The fact that Netflix have done everything with the same cast is a considerable advantage, too.
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Re: Netflix English Dub Discussion

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Sun May 23, 2021 1:44 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:
View Original PostBusterMachine4#923424 wrote:the EvaGeeks echo chamber,

Why perpetuate this myth? Just look back over the 17 years of posts in the forum and see the arguments about everything and anything, and you'll see that description is laughable.

I know there have been plenty of arguments in the community over the years, and to expect otherwise would be ridiculous. But what I meant is that there have been many accepted “default opinions” held by the majority of EvaGeeks over the years. “Asuka and Shinji are in love,” “3.0 is great,” and most relevant to our discussion, “The ADV dub sucks.” Every community is an echo chamber to at least some degree, and you have to visit multiple communities to form an unbiased opinion.

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Re: Netflix English Dub Discussion

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Postby Zusuchan » Sun May 23, 2021 1:50 pm

I don't really disagree with what you're saying, but I have to wonder if "3.0/Q is great" is really that much of a "default opinion"-there are still pretty regularly timed discussions on its qualities and worth as a film. If anything, I think there might be a slightly higher percentage of Q fanboys here than in most places and certainly more people who like it-but I'd say over-all the lovers and the haters are still more-or-less equally divided. At least it certainly appears that way.

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Postby Blockio » Sun May 23, 2021 1:59 pm

Yeah, that's a complete strawman, especially on the AsuShin and ADV side of things. If it really were as much of a "default opinion" as you claim it is, then explain to me why both of these are still so hotly debated every time they get brought up?
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Re: Netflix English Dub Discussion

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Postby GentlemanX » Sun May 23, 2021 6:32 pm

Blockio wrote:Yeah, that's a complete strawman, especially on the AsuShin and ADV side of things. If it really were as much of a "default opinion" as you claim it is, then explain to me why both of these are still so hotly debated every time they get brought up?

I mean, this is a website that has an entire page claiming that AsuShin is "the show's primary relationship". Regardless of whether that's true, could be argued as not being inherently romantic on face value, or not speaking for the opinions of all or even the majority of the forum's members or staff, it's still a pretty clear circle being drawn around the concept by EvaGeeks for others to focus on.

I'm in the process of rewatching Eva recently. I've seen the ADV-Platinum dub numerous times over the years (and heard the original dub once on TV back in the 2000s), but with the all too real possibility that I won't be able to finish NTE with the FUNimation cast, I decided to give the Japanese version and VSI translations a try. I started with the Japanese version with the Platinum subs, which up until the Netflix release creating some debate, were considered the gold standard I believe by the fandom. I had no real issue with those subtitles, everything made sense and sounded natural to an English speaker.

I won't go too in depth my impressions of the Japanese cast, but I found them to be about on par with the ADV dub - with some exceptions one way or the other (Ishida I find better than any of ADV or Manga's actors for Kaworu though Jerry Jewel I think is equal, much of the incidental cast are better too such as Hayshibara as Yui, while others are good in different ways such as Ogata's Shinji compared to Spencer or Hayashibara's Rei compared to Winn-Lee, and some I prefer in English such as Grant's Asuka compared to Miyamura or MacAvery's Gendo compared to Tachiki). The manga subs for EoE weren't as good as the Platnium subs for TV, but still did the job fine. No complaints about the FUNi subs for 1.0, 2.0, or 3.0 either (watched the theatrical subs for 3.0, which from my memory seem to be identical to what I saw in theaters back in 2014).

I decided to next watch through the series with the VSI subs and am currently 10 episodes in. The subs are... quite the step down from the Platinum subs to be frank. At least once every episode something will take me out of the experience, such as not subtitling the German in episode 8 (even as German as ADV did) or using less natural sounding language like saying Rei is "all thumbs at living" in episode 5 rather than saying she "not adept at living" in ADV's translation. Overall, Kanemitsu's translation is just struggling to sound natural a lot of the time and when it drops the ball it drops hard. I haven't heard the dub yet obviously, I plan on rewatching the ADV/Manga/FUNi dubs before I watch the VSI version, and I might share my thoughts when I get to it, but as I've heard these same complaints by most of the new dub's detractors, that the dialogue is stilted and unnatural sounding, seeing this first hand with the subs isn't making me look forward to getting there eventually.

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Re: Netflix English Dub Discussion

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Postby Blockio » Sun May 23, 2021 6:41 pm

Fair point; however, two things. firstly, as you pointed out yourself, it's not specified what kind of relationship it is; just that it is the one that is explored in the most depth, not necessarily romantic in nature.
And secondly, that page in large parts stems from a time where the wiki was de facto run by an absolute lunatic that has since been banned, but traces of his garbage still remain; it's been on the cleanup list for a while now.

Either way, back on topic we go.
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Postby UrsusArctos » Mon May 24, 2021 2:27 am

^ yeah, we have a lot of ancient garbage on the wiki that needs to be purged, often in places where we don't pay nearly enough attention or lack the time or the manpower needed to do so. If nobody volunteers to help us, there's going to be no change.

On the matter of casts, I think the Netflix English cast is superior overall to the ADV cast in terms of how well they emote, but the trouble is that they're being told to keep their emotions down (in addition to the issues posed by Kanemitsu's odd translation choices). The ADV dub actually did pretty well when it came to comedic moments but wasn't good at Eva's subtle, somber moments. The Japanese dub and its cast are always going to be the definitive version, in my opinion, and the original cast beats any dubbed version I've heard by miles.
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Postby Xenoblade » Mon May 24, 2021 2:15 pm

The entire Netflix cast did a good job, no complaints here.

But speaking of the original cast and its voice acting...I've wondered if Miyamura (and Asuka) speak in the Kansai Dialect, or at least have a discernible accent to Japanese people at all. The voice actress seems to be from the right area at least.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansai_dialect#Vocabulary

Apparently being called baka is even worse than it usually is in Japan in that region, lol. If true, I imagine that nuance (and other unique features of the dialect) aren't easy to translate into the English language. Just food for thought.
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Postby UrsusArctos » Mon May 24, 2021 10:07 pm

Asuka speaks in standard Japanese and there's nothing I know of that indicates an Osaka/Kansai-region connection to her character, so "baka" doesn't have the worse connotations that it does in that region. From what I can make out in most anime, characters meant to be from Osaka (case in point, Toji) tend to have very prominent accents, reflecting just how different Kansai-ben is to standard Japanese.

I've heard Miyamura speak in interviews before and she doesn't sound like she's using a different accent or dialect than she does when she's playing Asuka. If she does have a lingering Kansai influence to her accent, it would need a native speaker or someone highly familiar with spoken Japanese to pick it out.

Speaking of kansai-ben, it's usually rendered with a Texan accent in English dubs. I haven't listened to Toji's Netflix dub performance but I do know that the ADV dub made him speak with the same accent as all the other characters. I thought that sort of odd since ADV used to be based in Texas (IIRC) and it would've been a simple matter to have one of their VAs put in a Texan accent for Toji.
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Postby FelipeFritschF » Mon May 24, 2021 10:31 pm

I find it weird you guys are even debating this when many people here go out of their way to point out they don't venture out into the larger fandom to find out what those opinions are like. I'd say, instead, that pre-2019 a majority of fans were anti-dub in the same way most anime fandoms are. After Netflix, ADV had several, shall we put it, "loyalists" who didn't like the dub for a variety of reasons. This included even the shipping faction that spent years accusing ADV/Manga of censoring and distorting the show against their ship in exactly the same way they did with the Khara sub years later. Suddenly ADV (and only some versions of it...) was the "original official canon translation by Anno", even when they were unknowingly talking about an obscure 1999 fansub instead.

So after Netflix people start growing nostalgic sometimes even for the hell of it and you have the smallest nitpicks over the changes made just for being changes, even when they're more accurate and add a lot of nuance that ADV missed or even deliberately removed. "balls to the wall" and "international civil servant" come to mind. I can understand being more used to the ADV VAs, and I still associate the characters with them myself, I also agree VSI treated them badly and the fake auditions were a deplorable behaviour. But accuracy should take priority over all. Khara allowed Funi, another American fan-run company with a questionable history, to reuse some of the ADV VAs, at a time when it didn't seem like such a problem. But ADV was still responsible for a huge amount of myths and misconceptions. This is also (probably) why didn't change everything for the other languages. There was no need for it. In Portuguese Shinji is still dubbed by Ash Ketchum 25 years. Since the 3.0 sub was made by Kanemitsu as well, I am not wary of speculating that VSI's production was probably rushed to a considerable degree. They even use an unfinished script from Kanemitsu. At the same time I see new fans not giving a damn about ADV. They look at snippets of it and see a weird, cheesy and inconsistent 90s dub... which is exactly what it is. Yes, it's a labour of love, I don't think anyone disputes that, but that's not enough. If anything EvaGeeks is probably still more ADV-friendly than the average fan space out there these days.

Personally I'd be great if GKids has an updated version... and while I could have both casts (though TBH it'd be the Rebuild cast, not the varying ADV/Manga OA/DC/EoE casts), the ADV script and its nefarious influence needs to be buried.

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Postby UrsusArctos » Tue May 25, 2021 12:30 am

^ I have a pretty good idea why there are people who like the ADV dub more than the Netflix dub and why this discussion continues, but I won't venture into it for fear of driving this thread hopelessly off-topic. And, as I said, even once you remove ADV's thoroughly non-professional behavior and tendency to generate the most ludicrous misconceptions (both of which are best put into separate topics of their own), the Netflix dub is much superior in terms of overall quality.
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Postby FelipeFritschF » Tue May 25, 2021 12:39 am

Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily blame them (though some motivations are clearly in the wrong), but either way we need to get over it for good. It's only a problem in English fandom, for that matter, but that is also generally speaking the international fandom, aside from the Japanese one obviously. I still hope GKids can make a "proper" Khara dub, but if they can't, let them keep just Netflix.

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Re: Netflix English Dub Discussion

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Postby pwhodges » Tue May 25, 2021 4:06 am

View Original PostFelipeFritschF wrote:pre-2019 a majority of fans were anti-dub in the same way most anime fandoms are.

Remember that fandoms are self-selected fragments of the market that the companies are marketing to, and their opinions are just that. Companies make dubs because the market as a whole benefits from them.
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Postby FelipeFritschF » Tue May 25, 2021 10:59 pm

Certainly, but it is also a small segment of fans that bother complaining about small details in different localizations in the first place, too. You can debate about the relative importance of hardcore fans versus casual fans or casual watchers, but I digress...

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Re: Netflix English Dub Discussion

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Postby Blockio » Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:38 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Bumping this to add a twitter thread from AWL where she spills some beans


So remember this stuff? Yeah turns out AWL was, once again, full of shit.

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Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu

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Postby hui43210 » Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:28 pm

What an absolute shocker. Sadly, I imagine this correction won't go as far on the internet as the original statement by AWL.
I mean, predictability is the central attraction and the narrative hook that we've all come to expect from the Evangelion franchise. How come Anno can't realize this? Twice? - FreakyFilmFan4ever


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