Netflix English Dub Discussion

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Re: Netflix English Dub Discussion

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Postby 天使 | Nyo | 天使 » Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:49 am

View Original PostFelipeFritschF wrote:Huh. It seems Netflix has recently revised their subtitles a bit. Kaworu's "grace" line has been changed to "affection", although it remains "grace" in the scene at the end of the episode with Misato and Shinji, plus the dub remains unchanged. It doesn't seem they made any other changes (like the stuff Dan mentioned sending to them for corrections), which is disappointing.


Well, that's something I haven't seen with an anime before. Like, they literally just changed only that one part? Strange that they didn't change it for the other languages...or maybe they just don't want to re-dub something every time they change something, I dunno. :shrug:
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Postby Kendrix » Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:34 am

So I decided I should rewatch the show in time for the new movie and to spice something up I decided to give the Netflix german dub a chance.

The quality of dubs really went down since there has been this pressure for quick releases
The pronunciation of the names has somehow gotten worse, Maya sounds way too old and Misato sounds like a Ghetto Prostitute named Chantal who lives in a Communist era concrete appartment building in Berlin and reads no newspapers but the Bild, which like, is an aspect of her she's probably meant to sound a little silly but the old VA always gave her a certain warmth & earthyness which is imho closer to the original

The pronunciation of the names somehow got ~worse~, even though they kinda partially added the suffixes & kept the original use of first name/ last name which ok, the Rebuilds also did, but goes against the point of a dub imho, someone with previous knowledge of Japanese culture is probably watching it with subs anyways. A dub is meant to make it accessible for someone who has no clue about Japanese whatsoever, but I guess that's a philosophical opinion.
I do like that they subtitled a lot more of the written text.


In a sense I thought it might be interesting to see a new interpretation of the characters (Gendo's new VA is thinking Mephistopheles, Shinji's is doing a slightly more childlike take on him but clearly the direction sucked 'cause he didn't "click" until the confrontation in the cage)
I kinda really, really liked Gendo's old VA tho, he could do bastard but he had more range, so maybe I'm biased



But what I can't quite forgive - and what the original dub from the 90s did very well - is that they're not really conserving the tone well. The verylifelike dialogue is one of the best parts of EVA imho and that's lost if they don't take care that the soldiers sound like soldiers, the scientists like scientists...
Especially since the intellectual cynism is something that would normally really resonate with an audience back home in Mordor.
When I watched the rebuilds in a theater everyone laughed at "politics only creates problems" line

I also think the original dub did something right when they decided to pronounce "EVA" like the bible character.

They also left "Human Instrumentality Project" as an English term (the 90s dub translated it), which yes was deliberately chosen to be a reference to an oldersci fi work and is maybe realistic - maybe its just my personal annoyance at gratuitous english terms everywhere, but I think it's more ominous if it's translated like, it's not just a name of something, you're forced to consider what the words mean

I might continue this for entertainment value tho, lets see what Kaworu, Asuka and Rei get saddled with...

I hope whoever dubs Q at least sticks with the cast from the first two films


What I'm really appreciating in this rewatch is how well, detailedly & lifelike the subtle details in the expressions are animated

EDIT: Touji is pretty good though! Another point of disagreement seems to be wether it's der, die oder das Entryplug, ah the age old argument.

But they definitely effed up the tone of the script at crucial points. I really don't think Rei would use the word "verpeilt" ^^° the whole thing comes off rather comedic instead of mysterious
Alas poor Kaworu, I knew him well...

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Postby robersora » Fri Nov 06, 2020 5:07 am

^
Yeah the English and German Netflix dubs are on par quality wise; while it's a huge step upwards for the English version, it's kind of a step down for the German. The old German dub (done in the 00s not 90s, but who cares, lol) was actually very carefully done! As you suggested, I also blame most of this problem on time constrains, since the Netflix dub in general seems very hastily done, not much thought put into the details not much time to get it right. (which is weird considering how much time went by from announcement to actual release)

On the gratuitous use of English terms: The old scriptwriter said that they used English Terms only when they were in English in the Japanese Dialogue, so the First Children stayed First Child (minus the Engrish - good call), but Eva-01 (called Shogoki in Japanese) became Einheit 1 for instance. This is the level of care, the Netflix dub definitely didn't take.
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Postby UrsusArctos » Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:13 am

Overall the Netflix dub is better in quality but I find the ADV dub more comedic in places like Episode 08, when Misato's confronting the Captain/Admiral on the aircraft carrier in a hilariously over-the-top way. So while I'm not a fan of the ADV dub or dubs in general (unless it's superlative dubs like Bebop or Ghost in the Shell: SAC), the Netflix dub's made me appreciate the elements that they actually did well!

Also, the problem with the bad pronunciations seems to affect the English dub as well. ADV put an effort in pronouncing "Fuyutsuki" right, while the new dub mangles it. It really seems like the new voice actors didn't listen to the pronunciations of the names very well, or the dub director rushed them through before they could correct their takes.
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Postby robersora » Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:30 am

^
From what I've heard, the English ADV was, if anything, very lively as opposed to the very lethargic delivery of the Netflix dub. I guess they tried to replicate the (for anime standards) very subdued Japanese original. But while being relatively down to earth it always remained nuanced and expressive at the same time. It's a delicate thing to get right and Evangelion's Japanese dub is rightly celebrated for getting this tightrope walk perfectly right.
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Postby dzzthink » Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:33 pm

View Original Postrobersora wrote:^
From what I've heard, the English ADV was, if anything, very lively as opposed to the very lethargic delivery of the Netflix dub. I guess they tried to replicate the (for anime standards) very subdued Japanese original. But while being relatively down to earth it always remained nuanced and expressive at the same time. It's a delicate thing to get right and Evangelion's Japanese dub is rightly celebrated for getting this tightrope walk perfectly right.


What i notice listening to the Japanese version is that it is more natural and there are appropriate uses of silence or pauses to convey emotion or drama. I agree with how the netflix dub tried to adapt this style from the Japanese version but the most of what they translate just falls flat to me and lost in translation. While the ADV tries to fill a lot of these moments with often gratuitous word play and sound effects I actually enjoyed the adv more than the netflix and i will give three scenes where it worked even better than the Japanese:

1. ep 11. When all three pilots are crawling through the ventilation duct and Asuka threatens Shinji about looking up her skirt:
subtitles: if you look up, you're a dead man....idiot! jerk! jerk!
Netflix: don't you dare look forwards, I'll kill you if you do.....idiot! idiot! idot!
ADV: If you dare look up my dress, I'll kill you, do you hear me Shinji??......you looked!! (flurry of German insults)
The use of German in the ADV was a nice touch and Shinji getting kicked in the face is extra funny because it seems like he was only looking up because Asuka asked him a question.

2. ep 15. When Rei and Shinij are together in the elevator and Rei responds to Shinji after he says she'd make a good housewife:
subtitles: what are you talking about?
Netflix: don't be ridiculous.
ADV: you're embarrassing me.
I feel like the ADV line works better with Rei's personality and seems more abstract about how Rei feels towards Shinji in comparison to the more blunt responses. I get the feeling that Rei would rather voice her own confusion about how she feels rather than become defensive in order to hide her feelings. Rei does this when she does not know how respond to certain situations, like when she sees Shinji cry in front of her after defeating ramiel.

3. ep 26. In dream world where it is just the pilots as school kids
subtitles: you two an item or something?
Netflix: you two seeing each other or something?
ADV: you riding his baloney pony?
Obviously the infamous line was a liberal interpretation of what was in the script but nevertheless hilarious and fit well with the absurdity of the scene in general.

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Postby Kendrix » Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:16 pm

i for my part could really could have done without the obnoxious "foreign person peppers in random foreign words" trope

no one talks like that irl

Particularly with a character like Asuka who is already some degree of shrill and over the top, you have to be careful not to turn her into a joke/carricature completely

It would be one thing if it was just a comical side character but you're actually supposed to have empathy for her by the time she gets met with a horrible fate
Alas poor Kaworu, I knew him well...

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:53 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:i for my part could really could have done without the obnoxious "foreign person peppers in random foreign words" trope

no one talks like that irl

I wouldn't be so sure about that. It's been demonstrated a lot in real life that people who are speaking a second language tend to revert to their original language when experiencing a strong emotional response. I know this from experience: my mom was an Estonian immigrant, and she tended to revert to Estonian quite a few times (most commonly when she was upset).

And to be fair, the 90's dub didn't actually have Asuka speaking German that much. She did a lot in Episode 8, but that makes sense since she had literally just arrived from Germany. After that, she typically only speaks German when she gets very emotional, which fits with how it works in real life.

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Postby Zusuchan » Sat Nov 07, 2020 4:20 am

dzzthink: I agree with the first example, but not with the other two. Rei straight-out saying "you're embarrassing me" is a Rei-like thing to do, but I think it also would mean she has a far clearer understanding of her feelings re: Shinji than the other parts of the anime really let on. She knew she liked him as something approaching a friend, but she didn't even realize her romantic interest in him until Armisael specifically showed it to her. So, in my opinion, "you're embarrassing me" sounds like she's a bit more clear about what she feels about him.

The third option I also dislike, mainly because it's very liberal, as you yourself said. It's the sort of thing high school students in the '90s might have said, but it feels off for me and yet another one of ADV's decisions to make stuff easier to digest. I may be alone in this, but I like translations to adhere as closely as possible to the original text. Translations are never going to be fully accurate in any way, so changing stuff because it "sounds better" and so on is something I really dislike. I want the original work, not some better-sounding screw-up of it.

BusterMachine4: Your mother was Estonian? What a coincidence! I'm half-Estonian as well, also on my mother's side. (My father's Dutch.) I do also agree that people do tend to revert to their native language when highly emotional.

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Postby Nao » Sat Nov 07, 2020 8:25 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:
The pronunciation of the names somehow got ~worse~, even though they kinda partially added the suffixes & kept the original use of first name/ last name which ok, the Rebuilds also did, but goes against the point of a dub imho, someone with previous knowledge of Japanese culture is probably watching it with subs anyways. A dub is meant to make it accessible for someone who has no clue about Japanese whatsoever, but I guess that's a philosophical opinion.
I do like that they subtitled a lot more of the written text.

Yeah, honestly the horrible pronunciation is – besides the unsuitable voices – one of the reasons why I dislike the (german) Netflix dub so much. The ADV dub is far from perfect as well, but still manages to have a better pronunciation. Also: The voices and the voice acting are actually suiting and good in the ADV dub! I haven't watched Episode 8 on Netflix (I have the Platinum DVDs from ADV here, so I only watched some episodes of the Netflix dub) but there's a comparison of Asuka speaking german in this episode on YouTube and somehow Asuka can't even speak german in the german dub anymore! I know they probably tried to stay true to the original but Asuka is a native speaker ... her german isn't meant to sound awful.
Honestly I would be fine with honorifics and the original use of first name/last name if it was done correctly. But "Shinji-kun" sounds like "Shinjiken" ... which was the case in the first NTE-movie as well, but come on, they did better after this. All in all I'm still unhappy with the Netflix dub and hope that 3.0+1.0 will use the cast of the NTE-movies.

BusterMachine4 wrote:I wouldn't be so sure about that. It's been demonstrated a lot in real life that people who are speaking a second language tend to revert to their original language when experiencing a strong emotional response. I know this from experience: my mom was an Estonian immigrant, and she tended to revert to Estonian quite a few times (most commonly when she was upset).

I kinda agree with both of you (how many EVA-fanfictions have I seen with Asuka randomly swearing in wrong german ...), on one hand it's an annoying trope but on the other hand I know people that tend to fall in their first language in certain situations. So it's not entirely unrealistic but it comes of as an overused trope in anime.

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Postby Kendrix » Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:38 am

Having been raised bilingual myself (part Spanish on my father's side) I'd argue that there is a BIG difference between "reverting in emotional situations" and "randomly peppered in foreign words" and that the ADV dub (and so many, many bad fanfics...) clearly did the latter.

Realistic: Maria the Mexican detective says "Dios mio!" after finding the latest dead body. Or, she is talking to her mom who also speaks Spanish, and switches to Spanish because she finds it easier to express a particular phrase

Random: Maria the Mexican detective calls every hat a "sombrero" for no reason and doesn't seem to know common English greetings. She uses random spanish words for no other reason than to show off that the author can use google translate
Alas poor Kaworu, I knew him well...

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:16 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:Having been raised bilingual myself (part Spanish on my father's side) I'd argue that there is a BIG difference between "reverting in emotional situations" and "randomly peppered in foreign words" and that the ADV dub (and so many, many bad fanfics...) clearly did the latter.

I think it might be best for you to watch the ADV dub again. Having just watched them a few months ago, I feel confident in stating that Asuka still spoke English more than 90% of the time. The only times she peppered in German words were in Episode 8, when she was still getting used to the Japanese language, and in the rest of the show when she got angry or upset. Both of those match up with real life.

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:19 am

So do we have a general consensus on the Netflix dub's quality?
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Postby Luigi shinji » Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:01 am

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:So do we have a general consensus on the Netflix dub's quality?


no

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Postby robersora » Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:22 am

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:So do we have a general consensus on the Netflix dub's quality?


Yesn't. My take from what I've gathered is;
Due to being a much more professional production, it superficially adheres closer to the naturalistic tone of original, while simultaneously suffering from it being a rushed and ultimately loveless production, which expresses itself first and foremost through quite a few minor slips and much less liveliness in expression.
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Postby Blockio » Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:23 pm

The only aspect of it there is a consensus on apart from people who don't want it to be true for one reason or another is that the new translation is far more faithful to the original than the old ADV dub
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Postby Kendrix » Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:14 am

View Original PostBlockio wrote:The only aspect of it there is a consensus on apart from people who don't want it to be true for one reason or another is that the new translation is far more faithful to the original than the old ADV dub


Kaworu is definitely saying "koui" not "koi" XDD

this whole thing is so annoying rly.

No one would argue that everything has to be unsubtle and spelled out if one of them was a girl (indeed no one but Misato gets to drop the l word because the whole point of the story is that 80% of the cast have major communication hangups), but the tumblr crowd has no listening comprehension whatover anyways. Nothing can be subtle dark or ambiguous anymore, there has to be a clear meaning and it has to be correct(tm).
Still, these days it kinda feels its the least worse place left out there ever since most of the inet either got all corporate & standardized or overrun by the alt right.
Alas poor Kaworu, I knew him well...

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Postby silvermoonlight » Wed Nov 11, 2020 7:26 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:Kaworu is definitely saying "koui" not "koi" XDD

this whole thing is so annoying rly.

No one would argue that everything has to be unsubtle and spelled out if one of them was a girl (indeed no one but Misato gets to drop the l word because the whole point of the story is that 80% of the cast have major communication hangups), but the tumblr crowd has no listening comprehension whatover anyways. Nothing can be subtle dark or ambiguous anymore, there has to be a clear meaning and it has to be correct(tm).
Still, these days it kinda feels its the least worse place left out there ever since most of the inet either got all corporate & standardized or overrun by the alt right.


The problem with the tumblr crowd is they want a very black and white narrative the villain the hero but real people are not this way they are flawed and many shades of grey and Evangelion regardless of what dub or sub your watching is not a black and white narrative your watching characters who can be equally bad and equally good and make mistakes, so the clear meaning root falls short in my view and the subtle dark and ambiguous makes way more sense.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:47 pm

Bumping this to add a twitter thread from AWL where she spills some beans


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Postby Blockio » Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:54 pm

Oh amazing, AWL at it with her usual lies again. Move over folks, nothing to see here....
I can see why Gendo hired Misato to do the actual commanding. He tried it once and did an appalling job. ~ AWinters
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