Netflix Release General Discussion

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Re: Netflix Release General Discussion

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Postby MirrorUniverseAsuka » Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:54 pm

View Original Post天使 | Nyo | 天使 wrote:...I didn't watch the Netflix Dub. :| I put it down after watching the first episode of it and then I found out the ADV Dub exists, which is A LOT better in terms of being accurate to the original translations, heck, they even got Kaworu saying "I love you" and everything. It gets better over time as I have been told, and I've seen it for sure. Don't watch the Netflix one, it's just...boring to me, I like the cheesy nature of the ADV Dub and Shinji sounds much more boyish compared to the Netflix dub.


I completely agree, and I quite like the extra sprinkling of German in Asuka's dialogue. It really helps to sell that aspect of her character. And I really liked Sue Ulu's performance, her voice makes Ritsuko sound a lot warmer a person than she might otherwise be and that makes it all the more shocking when it's revealed just how messed up she really is. The Netflix dub might be more technically accurate but it's about as appealing a performance as a dead fish.
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Re: Netflix Release General Discussion

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Postby WunderBah » Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:08 pm

View Original Post天使 | Nyo | 天使 wrote:Don't watch the Netflix one, it's just...boring to me, I like the cheesy nature of the ADV Dub and Shinji sounds much more boyish compared to the Netflix dub.


This is similar to my impressions, except i mostly went off various clips and yeah it's a pass for me too. It actually gave me a mild appreciation for ADV's take in retrospect (even when taking into account of obvious pitfalls).

It was not worth the wait.

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Postby Reichu » Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:33 pm

Guys, there's a whole separate thread for dub discussion: thread/19824/Netflix-English-Dub-Discussion/

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Postby 天使 | Nyo | 天使 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:02 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Why is it a good thing that it's "accurate to the original translations"? What does "original" even mean? There are three different sets of subtitles that ADV produced for the show; only the most recent of those -- Platinum -- is any good in terms of accuracy. The dub was created side by side with ADV's original VHS ("Genesis") subtitles and is riddled with all sorts of unnecessary inaccuracies. The Netflix dub is more accurate in every way, both in terms of fidelity to the original (as in, Japanese) script and fidelity to the original character performances.


True, there are some unnecessary things (like some of the stupid sound design changes in EoE, like when Misato shoots the soldier in the head and a splat cartoony sound is played which is also played during the 3rd Impact with the Mass-Production Eva Units), but I thought since it was the older version, I would mean a more accurate dub. I personally enjoy it more because of the whole thing with Shinji and Kaworu in Episode 24 with "It means I love you" vs "It means I like you." Both can still indicate that Kaworu likes Shinji, it's just that love was the original translation at the time, the Netflix Sub is a more literal translation and still works, but it doesn't feel as powerful as it could be. They have a strong bond, there's no denying that, it's just the wait it is delivered/translated is different because of time.

Now the accuracies to the originals thing, if I'm watching a show in Sub, I want to get the right, full meaning out of the dialogue, so, therefore, I want the best version of a Sub to exist, and really none of them win. ADV's Subs are older and contain inaccuracies, and the Netflix one, while newer, is very literal, making older viewers question what certain previous pieces of dialogue (i.e. "it means I love/like you") suddenly confusing to the older viewers.)


Personally, I watched the Netflix Sub as my first experience with NGE and I thought it was great, I drew my own conclusions on certain pieces of dialogue if I were confused between the "original" and the "new" parts (again because of some pieces of dialogue being changed for what seemed like "no good reason" to the old fans.) If you haven't watched the show before, the Subs are the way to go, otherwise, probably (maybe?) try the Platinum version of the show if you want a perhaps "different" experience, as some of the dialogue is of course changed. I think it's all down to the viewer at the end of the day, I just like the original for saying "love" really instead of "like" in terms of Shinji and Kaworu, because it gives more passion on Kaworu's love for Shinji. Especially since Evangelion 3.0 is apparently about Shinji and Kaworu's relationship and I guess you could call that long-distance foreshadowing or something like that.

They're both good and bad in their own ways, again, I feel like it's up to the viewer to watch whatever version they seem fit (even if the other side might not agree with their choice.) :shrug:


Sorry for the late response, I keep forgetting to have posts notify for when replies are posted. :|
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Re: Netflix Release General Discussion

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Postby Reichu » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:32 am

Your response is more confusing than clarifying, in the sense that it barely feels like a response to my post at all. But that aside, three points:

- ADV did not work on the original movies. That was Manga Entertainment. So talking about an "ADV dub" and then referring to stuff in EoE as if it were part of the "ADV dub" is simply incorrect. "ADV" is not another way of saying "the English dub before the Netflix one"; it was the name of a company.
- This so-called "original translation" of yours DID NOT use "I love you" for Kaworu's line. The Genesis subtitles, the oldest ones put out by ADV, in fact used "I like you". I would refrain from using vague wording like "original translation"; specify the actual version you're talking about, by name.
- "ADV's Subs are older and contain inaccuracies": Reminder that there are THREE DIFFERENT SETS of subtitles by ADV and they are not created equal. The first two are obsolete now, but Platinum is still an invaluable resource.

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Postby 天使 | Nyo | 天使 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:27 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Your response is more confusing than clarifying, in the sense that it barely feels like a response to my post at all. But that aside, three points:

- ADV did not work on the original movies. That was Manga Entertainment. So talking about an "ADV dub" and then referring to stuff in EoE as if it were part of the "ADV dub" is simply incorrect. "ADV" is not another way of saying "the English dub before the Netflix one"; it was the name of a company.
- This so-called "original translation" of yours DID NOT use "I love you" for Kaworu's line. The Genesis subtitles, the oldest ones put out by ADV, in fact used "I like you". I would refrain from using vague wording like "original translation"; specify the actual version you're talking about, by name.
- "ADV's Subs are older and contain inaccuracies": Reminder that there are THREE DIFFERENT SETS of subtitles by ADV and they are not created equal. The first two are obsolete now, but Platinum is still an invaluable resource.


Hey, sorry again for the semi-late response. I'm here to clear up some of the confusion since I was in a bit of a rush when I first wrote the post to write all the stuff down and didn't really proofread it, entirely my fault. :facepalm: :

1. I am aware of the Manga Entertainment Involvement on EoE, I probably just forgot to mention such. I probably just assumed since it used the same actors/actresses from the ADV dub that it was made by ADV, a very dumb mistake, but a mistake nonetheless. I assumed also that it was probably part of the whole "ADV" umbrella also because of the actors.

2. I do know of the existence of the other subs, however, I haven't seen ANY of those versions nor have I done really any research on them (I know of the Platinum and VHS versions, didn't know about the one at all), it would take money and time that I don't currently have at the moment to sift through and give comparisons. I personally wasn't trying to refer to those subs, as I've only seen the Netflix Sub and ADV Dub and I was comparing the two. (the two aren't related really AT ALL, but I guess I just did that. :| ) I guess those were the two I was trying to talk about in this case.

3. Yes, even the newest ADV sub is technically irrelevant, the Japanese language along with the translations and translators change with time. However, I do understand what you mean with the Platinum version.

4. Apologies for the usage of vague wording, I assumed that since the ADV was the first (as far as I know) to do any translating of subbing OR dubbing that it was the "original translation." When I see the very first version, I see such as the "original version."

5. The version I saw DID say "it means, I love you." I watched the ADV from a typical illegal anime streaming sight (don't recall the name of them at this point.) I will most likely also be using that same site to watch the three Rebuild Movies on there if I can find it again because I believe they had on the site too. I'm positive in this case I was watching rips of the Platinum Edition, because I recall watching the show very vividly, it's only been a few weeks or so since I've finished watching the ADV dub.

Now that's out of the way. I did happen to find an interesting little tidbit about that picture. Now, I'm definitely not the first to see this and probably won't be the last but I thought it was interesting nonetheless: The first two ADV dub translations of Kaworu's line seem to reference a lyric from Fly Me To The Moon in there, perhaps that is a little bit of foreshadowing that went over our heads when we first watched it. Though I guess we've definitely picked up on it by now. :shifty:




Oh yeah, and about the hate towards the Netflix dub. For me it's not so much the translations or dialogue or anything that bothers me, it more or less is about the actors/actresses in the Dub. As MirrorUniverseAsuka previously mentioned, it sounds like a "dead fish." The reason I like the ADV dub more is that the performances were better, they were more expressive and fun with the way they said the dialogue, and the usage of Asuka using german swears was a fantastic addition to her character. The acting was what the only thing that killed it for me, and THAT'S where my dislike for the Netflix dub comes in. And then I kinda I de-evolved my posts into a mess complaining about something that wasn't even relevant for the main topic I was trying to discuss. I was strictly focusing on acting NOT the translations, I don't wanna get into that because it's a whole can of worms that I wouldn't poke with a 15-foot pole. So...yeah, I really need to just go on Eva discord if I wanna ramble off about stuff I don't have the proper knowledge of. Hope that isn't gonna happen again for a while, heck that's why I'm staying away from the Rebuild Thread. :asuka_miffed:
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Re: Netflix Release General Discussion

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Postby Reichu » Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:37 pm

View Original Post天使 | Nyo | 天使 wrote:Yes, even the newest ADV sub is technically irrelevant, the Japanese language along with the translations and translators change with time.

Sometimes translations can be such a quantum leap forward that older ones simply become obsolete, but this isn't one of those times. At all. One could translate NGE again right now and get a translation exactly like much of Platinum right now. It's far more literal than Kanemitsu's version but for something like NGE that serves a perfectly valid purpose, since the anime is scrutinized very heavily and every word can matter sometimes. With Platinum, it's almost always a given that the wording will be very close to the original Japanese, making it an invaluable tool for someone who wants to study the anime more thoroughly but can't read Japanese much or at all. Platinum completely changed the Eva-analysis scene for the better and it won't be going anywhere.

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Postby 天使 | Nyo | 天使 » Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:32 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Sometimes translations can be such a quantum leap forward that older ones simply become obsolete, but this isn't one of those times. At all. One could translate NGE again right now and get a translation exactly like much of Platinum right now. It's far more literal than Kanemitsu's version but for something like NGE that serves a perfectly valid purpose, since the anime is scrutinized very heavily and every word can matter sometimes. With Platinum, it's almost always a given that the wording will be very close to the original Japanese, making it an invaluable tool for someone who wants to study the anime more thoroughly but can't read Japanese much or at all. Platinum completely changed the Eva-analysis scene for the better and it won't be going anywhere.


Agreed, it's still one of the better versions because of it. If I can find it for cheap (or at least cheaper than what places like Amazon or offering), I'll probably pick it up someday, who knows how long the Netflix version will be around for before it gets taken down or something. Comparing the older subs (all of them) to the Netflix one, there's changes, sure, but not too big of changes. That's probably the version I hold up in such high regard when I think "Evangelion" (asides from the Netflix version of course.)
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Re: Netflix Release General Discussion

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Postby FelipeFritschF » Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:09 am

I don't wanna spam this again, Nyo, but the fact that we've had a stronger debate on "like/love" just means the Khara dub is having the same effects the show had in Japan. Japanese is ambiguous enough that you can say this sort of thing to people point blank and they'll have to ask "but do you mean in this way or that way"? Anno could have easily used unambiguous language, but he didn't.

We have an article on this:

https://wiki.evageeks.org/Theory_and_An ... Episode_24

Megumi Ogata tweeted about this and flat out said she interpreted it as "like". I remember reading the comments to the Yahoo Japan news article and *everyone* saying "obviously, it can go either way", and I saw multiple comments saying they preferred "like" to get that point across, and one saying that neither word translated well enough. Even stuff like "Westerners want to impose their opinions on everyone".

http://twitter.com/SailorStardust0/stat ... 1319630848

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Re: Netflix Release General Discussion

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Postby 天使 | Nyo | 天使 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:11 am

View Original PostFelipeFritschF wrote:I don't wanna spam this again, Nyo, but the fact that we've had a stronger debate on "like/love" just means the Khara dub is having the same effects the show had in Japan. Japanese is ambiguous enough that you can say this sort of thing to people point blank and they'll have to ask "but do you mean in this way or that way"? Anno could have easily used unambiguous language, but he didn't.

We have an article on this:

https://wiki.evageeks.org/Theory_and_An ... Episode_24

Megumi Ogata tweeted about this and flat out said she interpreted it as "like". I remember reading the comments to the Yahoo Japan news article and *everyone* saying "obviously, it can go either way", and I saw multiple comments saying they preferred "like" to get that point across, and one saying that neither word translated well enough. Even stuff like "Westerners want to impose their opinions on everyone".

http://twitter.com/SailorStardust0/stat ... 1319630848


I guess that last part with the "Westerners imposing their opinions" makes sense since I heard from GoatJesus and his BL Analysis video of Kaworu saying "it means I love you." I just want the most accurate translations of the show. I was just wondering then what the line's TRUE kind of translation meant, and how that affects the power of Kaworu's confession to Shinji, does it make it more or less impactful. I have no clue since the translation has varied over the years, the first two subs (according to Reichu, who I was discussing with earlier) are old and most likely aren't the true translation. So, what I got from that was that the Netflix version is technically the most literal translation of all the dialogue.

For reference, Reichu linked me to this picture here comparing all versions of the line I was questioning here: https://wiki.evageeks.org/images/1/12/E ... arison.jpg
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Postby FelipeFritschF » Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:58 am

No, it's simply the most accurate one. GoatJesus also has a video listing some of the many outright mistakes in the old translations which created many problems in interpreting the series. Those were all fixed. "suki" doesn't carry enough weight by itself in Japanese to fit the English "love", particularly when it followed "koui". Again, it's all explained in the article.

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Postby 天使 | Nyo | 天使 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:51 pm

View Original PostFelipeFritschF wrote:No, it's simply the most accurate one. GoatJesus also has a video listing some of the many outright mistakes in the old translations which created many problems in interpreting the series. Those were all fixed. "suki" doesn't carry enough weight by itself in Japanese to fit the English "love", particularly when it followed "koui". Again, it's all explained in the article.


Yes, I saw that today when I was spell-checking the wiki today. You are also referring to "The Mistranslations of Evangelion" too, I get that. I agree with it as being the most accurate one, I wasn't really calling such into question either. Kaworu's confession is more strongly shown as a liking rather than love in the Netflix version, they instead emphasize his love with the use of the line "being worthy of my grace" rather than using love, because it's inaccurate.

Read it through today, I just didn't do my research when discussing the translation stuff.
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Postby FelipeFritschF » Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:28 pm

If you're referring to when Kaworu says "you deserve/are worthy of "koui"" I can tell you for a fact no official translation has ever translated that as "love". This is a myth that popped up because some tweets used some old fansub as proof, but that's based on plainly mishearing what Kaworu says.

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Postby WunderBah » Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:40 am

View Original PostFelipeFritschF wrote:No, it's simply the most accurate one. GoatJesus also has a video listing some of the many outright mistakes in the old translations which created many problems in interpreting the series. Those were all fixed. "suki" doesn't carry enough weight by itself in Japanese to fit the English "love", particularly when it followed "koui". Again, it's all explained in the article.

This is about the sub, right? What kinds of errors did he made in regards to translations out of curiosity?

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Postby FelipeFritschF » Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:48 pm

View Original PostWunderBah wrote:This is about the sub, right? What kinds of errors did he made in regards to translations out of curiosity?


I was referring to this video, which concerns the ADV/Manga translations.

Hilariously enough, some of the weirdness and mistakes on the Netflix sub *were* corrected by Dan but Netflix did not seem to incorporate these corrections in their original release. See: http://forum.evageeks.org/post/889685/N ... on/#889685

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Postby FelipeFritschF » Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:40 pm

View Original PostMistaL wrote:THEY PUT OUT AN UNFINISHED VERSION OF THE SUBS HOLY SHIT I CAN'T FUCKING BREATHE


I just checked and they still haven't updated this.

We really should try and get Netflix to update the subtitles. I remember they fixed something with Ritsuko on Ep 1.

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Postby 天使 | Nyo | 天使 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:47 pm

View Original PostFelipeFritschF wrote:If you're referring to when Kaworu says "you deserve/are worthy of "koui"" I can tell you for a fact no official translation has ever translated that as "love". This is a myth that popped up because some tweets used some old fansub as proof, but that's based on plainly mishearing what Kaworu says.


[I believe we are in the wrong section for this. If so, this is the last response to this translation stuff (though I want to wrap this up anyways.)]

I assumed that the Episode 24 Image (https://wiki.evageeks.org/images/1/12/E ... arison.jpg) I put up earlier was from all the different official releases of Evangelion (with each of them most likely using like or love.) I never heard of this fansub myth before, so I could be wrong. But I assumed these were the official translations of these lines. My original ramble way before all this translation stuff was just about how I disliked the dub, and how the dialogue for it was written differently compared to the ADV Dub (and also how I hated how boring the actors/actresses played the characters. :| )
"Eva broke me so hard...I fell in love with it HARDER. Now I think Shinji x Kaworu is the hottest couple in all of Eva...yeah nothing wrong here." -This Boi

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Re: Netflix Release General Discussion

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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:27 pm

View Original Post天使 | Nyo | 天使 wrote: My original ramble way before all this translation stuff was just about how I disliked the dub, and how the dialogue for it was written differently compared to the ADV Dub (and also how I hated how boring the actors/actresses played the characters. :| )


Apparently we're not allowed to make that argument in any meaningful way without being directly sequester with "But it's more accurate (Netflix)" argument or our objections being outright silenced...Essentially this stupid purist fan mentality sees to it that we're not even allowed dot have or voice our opinion on it. It's really stupid if you ask me.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:53 pm

No one is silencing you. Your posts are still right there for everyone to see. "I like the ADV dub" is an opinion and you're allowed to have it, but since this is a forum with other people on it, who have their own opinions, they too are allowed to express their views. Your personal preferences also don't affect factual matters like which dub is more accurate, which is important information that is not going to be suppressed here.

Comments like "this stupid purist mentality" are an actual direct attack on others vented in full public view. Frustration is understandable, but keep this kind behind closed doors please.

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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:44 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote: Your personal preferences also don't affect factual matters like which dub is more accurate, which is important information that is not going to be suppressed here.

Comments like "this stupid purist mentality" are an actual direct attack on others vented in full public view. Frustration is understandable, but keep this kind behind closed doors please.


Sorry for the outburst. I just feel that people have a certain mind to put the rest of us (this that actually like the ADV dub and the dub itself) on blast by throwing their intellectual weight around. It just feels kind of unfair because they're saying "Yes, you're permitted to like or prefer it more" while also telling us we don't have a leg to stand out. To add to this, Netflix didn't even give us the option all while heralding their more "accurate" depiction of NGE.

My truest argument on this matter is as such:

Sure the ADV/Mange dub isn't the most concise. But the die hard fans know where the weak spots are and know where to go here or on reddit to find the correct info. Further, the old dub is wild like cowboys on a frontier, wrought with passion and improvisation by use of some very crude tools. Similar to the artistic merits of the latter episodes of NGE's OA version, there's a kind of inhibited wildness to the whole thing that resonates with a kind of earnest purity that displays a great deal of heart despite its flaws and imperfections. In a meta sense, this kind of reflects the very nature of what Evangelion is about in the sense of things being deconstructed and falling apart.

So yes, while the new Netflix dub has the value of being the most perfectly accurate in its portrayal, such perfection comes at a cost. Namely, the dub as a kind oft tiff lifelessness to it. It's like a sculpture or painting that's pretty to look at, but it's cold and lacks a genuineness that the earlier iteration had. Plus, the other sacrifices made (such as the loss of Fly Me to the Moon, which is more than a theme song, but rather, an iconic touchstone of the show) has really left a sour taste in our mouths (mine at least).


You can say it's nostalgia coloring my perception and that I'm ultimately wrong in my understanding of NGE, but I know I'm not the only one who feels this way.
FROM EVANGELION:
"Acts of Man are greater than acts of God!"

"I'm saying that I love you."

NOT FROM EVANGELION:
"You are excrement. You can change yourself into gold."


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