Netflix Release General Discussion

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Postby SEELE-01 » Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:51 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:Oh please, like a fourteen year old doesn’t know what a handful of cum looks like.


SPOILER: Show
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Edit: Anybody know a good way to get screenshots from the Netflix streams?
Try screen video recording and then screen-capture... That works for Crunchyroll's app...
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Postby cyharding » Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:30 pm

View Original PostGuy Nacks wrote:Outside of dub/soundtrack/translation feedback, one thing I was surprised to see was that EOE received the same TV-14 rating that the rest of the main series received.

I'm getting the feeling that we'll be hearing from mainstream media about Netflix's new "controversial" series a la the dustup over 13 Reasons Why.
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Postby xtr00kvltcorex » Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:26 pm

Having watched more of the Netflix version, I think most of my issues are with script, translated by Khara or not, is the much talked about literal nature of it. Some parts it's fine, but others it just seems to have the character fumble about with matter-of-fact language. A chunk of it feels unnatural. Like switching the "i'm so fucked up" to "I'm the lowest...of the low," is just a weird change, it doesn't feel like the right thing to say there. Same with Shinji and Misato's exchange in front of the elevator. The Manga dub, for all its problems, really nailed that scene. It lost its gravitas in the new dub. I've learned to appreciate certain aspects of the new VAs, especially Shinji, who I didn't care much for at all, since they seem to be the only ones trying to do their own version. Many of the others (Misato, Asuka etc) seem to be trying to hew close to the ADV dub, coming off like caricatures. That's my take on it right now.
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Postby The Divine Emperor » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:44 am

This may have been brought up before, but isn't it peculiar that given the much-publicized absence of FMTTM from the credits, a diegetic instrumental arrangement of it plays over Misato/Kaji's conversation concerning the Marduk Institute in ep. 17? I suppose that the lack of lyrics is what made this permissible from a copyright standpoint.
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Postby eldomtom2 » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:49 am

I doubt it would, considering the instrumental versions were omitted from 15 and 21. My guess is that someone fucked up.

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Postby pwhodges » Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:13 am

But the Spotify re-release of the first OST album is also missing the vocal FMTTM track while retaining instrumental ones.
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Postby pearisdriving » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:21 am

I was hoping netflix would touch up episode 16 a bit. Sephirotic did a decent job of improving the visual quality of that and I'm sure netflix could have gotten someone to do so as well. Hell, even Khara could spend a couple of days to remaster it.

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Postby xtr00kvltcorex » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:19 am

There's few things Khara could've taken a couple of extra steps to improve this release, but if their priority has been 3.0+1.0, then I can deal with this dub and watch my Platinum collection should it bother me enough, I guess.
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Postby eldomtom2 » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:13 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:But the Spotify re-release of the first OST album is also missing the vocal FMTTM track while retaining instrumental ones.

I suspect that that comes under a separate licensing deal. It's not available in all the countries that the Netflix release is, is it? In any case, it doesn't really make sense for them to cut all the instances of FMTTM instrumentals except one unless there was some sort of fuckup.

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Postby Tumbling Down » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:32 pm

View Original Postsilvermoonlight wrote:I'm not because it looks regressive rather than progressive and the rumour that studio Khara were behind it only adds to the problem as Evangelion is loved by a lot of people because it questions gender roles, sex, sexuality and you can read in to underlying themes for LGBT in to it so for this to be stripped out to some feels like direct betrayal since in the older ADV dub kept the line in and ran with it.

You're talking about one episode out of twenty-six, where the relationship in question was explicitly doomed by its very nature. I don't understand how a potential homosexual relationship between Shinji and Kaworu could be the key appeal for people. I suppose if people only saw the Rebuilds, where Kaworu is 1/3 (soon to be 1/4) instead of 1/26 of the series, it's possible, but that's not what's on Netflix.

View Original PostReichu wrote:The comparison should have really included the Collection DVD subtitles for completeness' sake. I was there when the VHS images were being collected (they were snapped by my husband, in fact), so I dunno why I failed to act at the time...

SPOILER: Show
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Image

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A lot of people experienced it solely through the dub, which in Collection uses "love" (also translates koui as "sympathy", for the curious). We would need someone with the dubbed VHS tapes to know if this was an alteration or not.

I love the (unintentional?) Fly Me to the Moon quote here.

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Postby FelipeFritschF » Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:52 pm

View Original PostTumbling Down wrote:You're talking about one episode out of twenty-six, where the relationship in question was explicitly doomed by its very nature. I don't understand how a potential homosexual relationship between Shinji and Kaworu could be the key appeal for people. I suppose if people only saw the Rebuilds, where Kaworu is 1/3 (soon to be 1/4) instead of 1/26 of the series, it's possible, but that's not what's on Netflix.


I love the (unintentional?) Fly Me to the Moon quote here.


Hah. I rarely see those people say something like "Eva is great because it explores sexuality", but rather "well Eva is big and from 1995 so if its main character was gay that would be huge" And yeah, gay, because the woman in Eva and their much longer and more important relationships with Shinji in 95% of Eva can just be cast aside. Very progressive.

Regardless, I am of the opinion that Anno put there precisely to play with the audience's expectations of a perfect yaoi saviour, not to make a point about Shinji being bi, even though I think that is a valid reading. Particularly because, with Kaworu representing fantasy and escapism, using that kinda makes the show say being gay is wrong and thus Shinji's growth process includes outgrowing that. I find that particularly interesting because in the Rebuilds Anno seems to be revising this again in an amped-up manner, with Perfect Space Jesus Kaworu brought to a logical extreme that makes him more convenient and magical than ever while also making him obsessed, delusional, manipulative and much more actively enabling of Shinji's childish behavour. (https://forum.evageeks.org/thread/14454 ... ntentions/)

As for the dub itself, I like it. I think most of us are simply emotionally attached to the old ADV dub. I have to wonder, though, if Tiffany and Spencer and Allison are coming back for Funi's 3.0+1.0 dub. As far as I can tell they are contractually obligated to so (as if they needed to be obligated...), but after Khara's handling of both the 3.0 redub and how closely they seem to have supervised this new localisation, I am not so sure that is going to happen anymore.

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Postby Reichu » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:39 pm

Having made it to episode 24, some further thoughts on the subs:

- It has Misato regularly calling Kaji "Ryoji", even though in the original the ONLY time she does this (IIRC) is when she sticks a gun against the back of his head and hails him with his full name.
- A "Mr. Langley" gets dropped in an Asuka flashback, even though her father is never once named in the Japanese. (That his surname is "Langley" is something we've had to infer using multiple data points.)
- Honorifics are implemented very haphazardly. This kind of falls in line with the "Ryoji" thing. There doesn't seem to be a very consistent policy about how to handle them overall. You'll get "Kaji-kuns" getting turned into "Ryojis", "Ritchans" being left alone, "sempais" being left alone, and it goes on.
- The subtitles insistently use "Unit ##" for the majority, then suddenly in episode 24 they're using "Eva-##". (The latter is more 'correct' when you take a broad view of how the Eva unit designations are written in romaji, but unlike other terminologies this doesn't seem to be enforced when large amounts of text/dialogue are being translated.)
- For all the complaints about "literalness" but the script is a REALLY eclectic blend of the weird rigid interpretations people are complaining about, and completely nonliteral (and at times needlessly liberal) interpretations of lines. It can be really uneven. Platinum was much more even.

- Some people annoyed with my brand of interpretation are going to like this: Dan's subtitles do everything in their power to quash the possibility of Adam maybe actually being female. The "mother" line is softened to Adam only acting in the CAPACITY of a mother, and male pronouns are used insistently (note: Adam is never once referenced by gendered pronoun in the Japanese). Looking back on former forum antics, the "not actually a literal mother, you sillies!" thing was presaged by this thread. Maybe this was the right translation choice, but for me the ambiguity of what these beings actually were enriched the experience greatly, and having the khara-sanctioned subtitles telling me to bugger off with all that is... unpleasant.

Still, rather than screech about it on social media, which would only serve to have people tell me "told you so!" along with far less civilized things, this is overall a good cue for... pausing, and being self-reflective. I guess if you really think about it, show creators getting a little pushy about how you should watch their works doesn't rob you of the feelings and ideas that the work provides you. None of that can be taken away, and you can do with it whatever you please. Something I have to repeat to myself is: don't rely on the idea of external approval for validation; create your own validation. (In other words: create your own works in your own image... and actually finish them.) Sorry that came out a bit long, but it's been weighing on me a little because I'm a strange person with strange preoccupations.


Unfortunately I wasn't taking notes during our viewing, so most of the niggle-worthy things went right past. Would take a more dedicated watch to make a list of good things, bad things, neutral things. Could be interesting, but not sure if I'll get around to it or not.

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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:34 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:
. Looking back on former forum antics, the "not actually a literal mother, you sillies!" thing was presaged by this thread. Maybe this was the right translation choice, but for me the ambiguity of what these beings actually were enriched the experience greatly, and having the khara-sanctioned subtitles telling me to bugger off with all that is... unpleasant.


So, we've all lost something here...All the same, it feels very unfair. I for one can't unthink Kaworu's love for Shinji nor can I relinquish the idea that Adam, Lilith and the other 5 Seeds are all cosmic mothers. that being said, and I acknowledge that it's a string word to feel or use, but I rather hate what Netflix Genesis has done...
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Postby Chuckman » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:40 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:I guess if you really think about it, show creators getting a little pushy about how you should watch theit works doesn't rob you of the feelings and ideas that the work provides you.


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Postby FelipeFritschF » Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:25 pm

Alright, made a wiki article surrounding Kaworu's lines: https://wiki.evageeks.org/Theory_and_An ... Episode_24

I am glad Khara announced the 3.0+1.0 preview in just a few weeks. This should swift discussion away from all this into something new.

I would like some more evidence regarding the 3.0 original dub and the re-dub. Some VAs seemed to have expressed their opinion but I am not entirely sure if I can find something concrete.

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Postby Literary Eagle » Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:53 pm

View Original PostFelipeFritschF wrote:Alright, made a wiki article surrounding Kaworu's lines: https://wiki.evageeks.org/Theory_and_An ... Episode_24


In your article you mention a book called Schizo/Parano, but those are actually two books, one called Schizo and one called Parano. Also, in 2014, Hideaki Anno revealed that he wrote them. You can read about that here: https://otakumode.com/news/5458c7dadb7b183963e68abf/Evangelion-20th-Anniversary-Bombshell-a-Mysterious-Work-Just-Like-Attack-on-Titan-and%E2%80%A6-Hideaki-Anno-Talk-Show-%E2%80%9CDirector-Edition%E2%80%9D-Report

For those who don't want to read the whole page that I linked to, the relevant part is "One other new Evangelion truth was revealed. Two books containing long interviews with Anno, Schizo Evangelion and Parano Evangelion, were published after the end of the broadcast of Evangelion. This is a monumental interview collection in which Anno’s raw thoughts from that time can be read. The truth, however, is that these books aren’t actually long interviews but rather as Anno said without divulging anything further, he wrote them himself. Fans who have known of Evangelion for years were given a huge shock with this news."
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Postby FelipeFritschF » Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:23 am

...oh yeah I actually knew about this but forgot lmao. Gonna fix it. Thanks.

This is interesting though, all this says is that Anno wrote the interviews but it says nothing about the other ones or the book as a whole. Numbers-kun says the character guide is by the interviewers (editor?), and this article says it is in a separate section of the book, apparently written by the editor, Kentaro Takekuma, So I am going to keep that in. In fact, Numbers-kun also says Takekuma is one of the interviewers.

Vox article wrote:This is a section of the book that is separate from Anno’s interviews, and perhaps was written by its editor, Kentaro Takekuma, and not taken from Anno himself. But the inclusion of this reference to the love between the two characters makes it clear, at least, that an explicitly queer reading of the characters was officially on the radar as early as 1997.

In his email, however, Kanemitsu noted that Anno makes no reference to the characters’ sexuality in the interviews that appear in the two books. He shared with us quotes from Anno, taken from the other companion book. (Vox has verified Kanemitsu’s translation.) In that book, Hideaki Anno Schizo Neon Genesis Evangelion, Anno repeats several times in his interview that the series is meant to be ambiguous, something of “a Rorschach test.” As translated by Kanemitsu in his email, one passage in particular implies that Anno intended for everything to be up for debate:

Anno: [Eva is a work] where the remaining process [of completing the work] is in the hands of the audience. I place strong emphasis in that relationship. After you get to a certain point, I want them to make their own judgment. There are portions where things are left ambiguous, so it all depends on how you view [and judge it for yourself.] I think the character of the person [e.g. a personality] reveals itself in that process. [Eva is a work] where if ten people watch it, not all of the ten will [compliment] it. In that sense, it’s very Japanese.


Plus, the books include some interviewers with other people that Anno isn't a part of, I am guessing the editor was responsible for organizing this into a book, would be strange for Anno to do that sort of work. Also seems strange for Anno to just make an outright statement about something so specific when he still actively avoids it even during the interviews in that book and even defends the open-endedness of everything, almost everywhere, including in that same book. Just making a character guide in the first place is so... un-Anno-y.

Numbers-kun wrote:The books contain three interviews: two long interviews with Anno, dated June 19, 1996 (Schizo) and August 28, 1996 (Parano); and a long roundtable with Otsuki, Sadamoto, Sato, Tsurumaki, and Masayuki, which is split between the two books and undated.

[...]The roundtable takes place over drinks, and is very candid from the outset ^^ The interviewers are Mitsunari Oizumi and Kentaro Takekuma (with a few brief contributions from Yuichi Akata).


Here is Takekuma mentioned again. I think it is safe to assume that Anno wrote the two long interviews, but the rest of the book is by Oizumi and Takekuma.

Or is he just trolling? This is weird... the interviews are so amazing and interesting, and have so much detail, even stuff like Oizumi's relationship with Aum Shinrikyo. Would Anno really make all of this stuff up? If we assume the article is quoting this in the order Anno talked about them, he also jokes afterwards that:

Otaku Mode article wrote:“Because the intervals (between Evangelion: 1.0, 2.0, and 3.0) steadily grow longer, I wonder if having the next one take place four years, no, six years later would be good.”


Then again, THIS I would like to see. Good thing the preview is coming in just 10 days.
Last edited by FelipeFritschF on Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:39 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Netflix Release General Discussion

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Postby honsou » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:19 am

Having just finished the Netflix version, I'd have to say that all in all the Netflix dub is a major improvement overall. Especially in regards to Shinji and Asuka. All of that leads up to the vast improvement in regards to the netflix dub of EoE, especially compared to how terrible the original dub was.

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Postby eldomtom2 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:19 am

From what I heard saying that Anno wrote Schizo/Parano is a mistranslation or misinterpretation - what actually happened was that in some cases Anno changed or edited his answers after the interview, and then had to edit the interviewers' comments.

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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:34 am

I thought that this was interesting:

https://kotaku.com/a-translation-change ... 849965/amp

It's an opinion piece, but it does make some level of sense about context, even with the difference being split on "Love" or "Like"
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