Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

[Sachi]

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.
Get back on topic or don't bother responding.

[DarkBluePhoenix]

There's a town nearby. He's probably been looting it for supplies and returning to the beach repeatedly to keep a watch-out for returners.

So would that be where he got the crude materials for the grave crosses as well? And is the town Tokyo-3 or some other town?

[Anonymous_Evafan]

She was probably referring to the town we actually see when Rei's head is falling. Tokyo 3 is gone, like it was at the center of the explosion that unearthed the Black Moon.

[DarkBluePhoenix]

Good point, but how far of a walk would that be for him? Isn't the Black Moon like 15km in diameter or somesuch?

[pwhodges]

He's not got much else to do.

[DarkBluePhoenix]

Well, he does have a lot of moping and guilt to deal with. I imagine that would eat up a lot of time.

[traumalamb]

Well, this is my first time posting, so I must apologize beforehand if I do not seem to fit the forum culture. However, I actually joined to discuss this specific topic, so I hope you can all hold on.

Before I begin, there are a few things you must know. I am 1. rather mentally disordered. I have 6 different mental illnesses, all professionally diagnosed, 2. One of them is PTSD, due to multiple forms of abuse, starting from when I was born, and 3. I am currently in therapy and medicated, so yes, it is being treated.

Also, I believe that art can have more meaning than it's intended meaning. Those who see it and what they take away from it also gives it meaning. So I don't mean to take away how NGE touched anyone else, or what it means to them. This is just what it meant to me, and feels to me.

With that, let's begin. This post is based on my most recent view of EoE, so that's the ending I'm going off of.

Shinji and Asuka are not healthy people. Let's get that out of the way. But Shinji is no worse than Asuka. Asuka physically assaults people, gaslights Shinji by making him believe he needs to live up to her unreasonable expectations (that he needs to know her needs without her telling him), and just, in general, is not really great. I am not saying she is worse than Shinji either, though. Shinji gets off to her, out of desperation and sickness, relies on her to even function, putting immense pressure on her, and just in general, is also really not great.

Rather, they are expressing trauma in different ways.

In fact, I can relate to both of them. Due to my mother's mental illness, I too, had to "grow up fast" like Asuka, and throughout preteen and teenhood, felt a need to be considered an adult. Unlike Asuka, though, the adults I met preyed on that, rather than dissuade her from doing adult things (see: Koji, one of the most heroic characters in all of NGE, if you can call any of the characters heroic) and telling her she's still a child. But much like Shinji, I run from things. I struggle with maladaptive daydreaming. I listen to music and create whole universes away from everyone else. I disassociate, curl up, freeze up, and avoid everything.

Is AsuShin healthy? No.

But Asuka isn't the only victim.

Alright, let me also get this out of the way. People who are traumatized can love. They can also feel love. Even if they are still in the cycle of abuse, even if they haven't come to terms with it, they can love. To say otherwise is gross and uneducated. However, if they have not sought help, this expression of love is often "tainted" and expressed in hurtful ways. Their love is just as valid as the love of everyone else, but it's colored by trauma and abuse, and can hurt those around them. For now, I'm focusing on the action of love, or the desire to be with someone in a mutual relationship where you work to love them, rather than the emotion. To quote one of the theory wiki pages, "She then proceeds to accuse him of not loving anyone, not even himself. The accusation in question should not be interpreted as inability to feel but as inability to translate the feelings to meaningful acts of love." (note: this does not excuse any harmful or abusive behavior, rather, it is an explanation)

Shinji and Asuka, in my mind, love each other. Truly. No joke. The issue is they are too traumatized to understand it or express it. Asuka wishes to be close to Shinji, to be understood by Shinji, to understand him, in her own way. Likewise, Shinji wants to help Asuka, to be understood and understand, to be close to her. This love is also only partially romantic. I think a lot of their love is platonic, probably most of it. They're too young to fully understand romance. But they can understand some of it.

The issue is they can't express it without their trauma getting it way. Asuka wants to be seen, so her love is expressed as a need for attention. Shinji wants to be loved and to stop feeling pain, so his love is expressed as sheer desperation. Thus, masturbating over her unconscious body. It's nasty, but hypersexuality isn't uncommon in abused preteens and teens. Let's remember, Shinji is also only 14, iirc. He's confused, hurt, and scared.

On Shinji's selfishness. Let's approach this. Yes, but as much as everyone is. When he lashes out, saying he wishes everyone was dead, Instrumentality was already starting. In EoE, remember the clip where everyone is talking about break ups and rejection? I take this as Shinji experiencing everyone's hate. Think of it as Madoka in PMMM. His wish is to erase unhappiness. He, at that moment, is starting to not only experience his own crushing sadness and existential depression, but that of others. This breaks him for a moment. A sudden reaction is not the defining moment. Your initial reaction is who you grew up to be, and your secondary is who you really are - who you want to be. Shinji grew up in an abusive childhood, so his brain developed to protect him. To minimize his hurt. It's not until it's finished, has leveled out, and he can talk to Asuka, Rei, and Kaworu, and even, eventually, Yui, therefore calming him and having a better understanding that we see who Shinji is. Broken, but strong, like every NGE character is. Abused to the point where they are shattered, yet they always put one foot in front of the other.

On Asuka and Koji. Asuka wants to have sex with Koji to prove her adulthood. I've been in the same place. But notice, she doesn't desire Koji in the same way as Shinji. Asuka interacts with Shinji on a emotional level, whereas all her interactions with Koji are merely sexual.

Another thing. Komm, süsser Tod and Thantos -IF I CAN'T BE YOURS- both, to me, almost express the feelings of Asuka and Shinji. Shinji and Asuka both realize the need for other people. Remember, Asuka couldn't let herself rely on others. Shinji didn't understand the purpose of having others since they only abandoned him. Shinj and Asuka also want to belong to each other, a sense of longing, but it is faulty due to their baggage.

I'm slightly sleep deprived, so I'm sorry if this explanation is poopbutt, but I hope this adds something. And to add, I'm not saying they are destined, or their relationship is a healthy one, but they are... trying. And at the very, very end, I like to think Asuka and Shinji's scene was symbolic of them accepting their feelings, Shinji accepting the anger inside him, Asuka accepting her need for others, and that began the journey of working through some... issues.

[Glor]

That is an excellent, well thought-out and meaningful insight. Thank you for sharing.

[NoAltRealities]

Just my two cents from months ago. And a very very brief rundown on my thoughts

I mean, at this point with all the signs that she is indeed choosing to acknowledge a mad Shinji with affection, it's pretty clear it wasn't just to save her own skin. It really isn't a coincidence the titlecard of the scene is "I Need You". Not to mention that the caress mirrors the one Yui gave to Shinji as a final goodbye. Why would they put the caress there if it didn't mean anything? And given the themes of the show are optimistic to the possibilities of self improvement, it really isn't a stretch to say it really was out of "love/affection". In fact I have no doubt.

The entire show she struggled to accurately express how she truly felt ( whatever you think it was ) due to the Barriers she put up. Eventually her relationship with others, especially Shinji, declines into failure . That Hedgehog dilemma you see mentioned to death on this site.

Instrumentality clearly affected her in some way if she went from her rather dying than being one with Shinji, to what we saw. A main reason why people don't like their relationship is because they crossed to many red lines in their eyes. This is a valid and reasonable way to think. So many people saw how Shinji failed to reciprocate to Asuka's advances, how he masturbated in the hospital, and seemingly strangle her TWICE. To many people the line was crossed and an indicator that Shinji was a big no no for Asuka ( even her own VA I think ). But while they cannot look past shinjis actions and believes that Asuka deserves someone better, let's see how Asuka herself responded to him at the end of it all.

-She ( seemingly ) chooses to return to the real world alluding to the possibility she had a similar resolve to Shinji, although there is a possibility she didn't have her self awareness during instrumentality. I like to think she did because that way it's more interesting and not a huge 'fuck you' to her imo but I digress
- she chooses to lie down next to the same other person who has hurt her deeply ( she's guilty too )
- and when he attempts to strangle her for real this time around, she responds with a caress. Huh. The last person you'd expect to show such open compassion is the very person who gives it. Contrasting to how Asuka was the one person Shinji wanted help from right before instrumentality but ultimately seems to rejects him. Now that's growth. But how can Asuka herself show such compassion? Surely it's just not realistic to think she forgot all the shit that Shinji did. And what happens next is
- "I feel sick/How Disgusting" . Yeah no, she didn't forget. A reminder that it is in fact Asuka and this is reality.
But there's also
- the last movie poster we see A/S with their backs turned to the viewers looking into the distance. Granted, can't see their faces, but we can see their BODY LANGUAGE. Neither of them seem tense, they seem relaxed. Almost at peace with each other. A rather positive scene and also the last thing we ever see of Evangelion canon unfortunately. At the very least they don't seem to be tense and dare I say they are almost comfortable

While the negative and ambiguous connotation of "I feel sick/How Disgusting" cannot be ignored, the more positive events I detailed above also cannot be ignored. Yea they fucked up. But the movie ends on the possibility of a brighter future. Otherwise you are being WAYYY too critical of a damaged 14 year old girl.

It is certainly valid to be against her and the LAS pairing and you are very welcome to do so. But it also valid to be optimistic towards it and hope for a better future between the two of them. At the root they were bad for each other because of their Barriers, lack of communication, and their own personal traumas. They immaturely seeked each other out for SELFISH comfort and support. This is why their relationship had a falling out , but in instrumentality they learn NOT TO do what they did beforehand.

Life isn't all about you ,stop pushing people away and being selfish, you need other people. Anywhere can be paradise with the will to live , love yourself( yeah you all saw the movie ).

so upon returning, she sees Shinji has gone mad and strangling her resulting in her caressing him. For the first time she's not thinking about comforting herself, but instead comforting the very person she seeked it from. It's very unexpected, especially from her, but she still does. Shinji of course snaps back to reality and cries over guilt, confusion, and relief it's all over. He learns the same message so what I like to think from the fact that he is standing up in the movie poster, is that he is accepting to be more 'up to it'. They already had their worst so now it can only improve ( added by the poster imo ) And given the show ends on hope, I would not consider it a stretch to want to see damaged teenagers learn from their mistakes and provide the support from each other that they've wanted. If there is one thing these two need, it's hope and the will to TRY if they really want a shot of happiness. Whether with each other or as individuals.
Kind of like how people IRL need to.

Jeez man just want these two to be happy together. Enjoy the greatness.

[Elian]

It seems that they were never in a real relationship.

[DarkBluePhoenix]

^ No, they were never anything more than friends, and at the very least colleagues. No matter how many of us wish they were in an actual relationship though, we can't forget that fact.

[Kharis1212]

SPOILER: Show

Yes, that's the entire point of Shinji's charcter arc and the story of NGE as a whole.

I think what Geometer wondered is whether it would be worth for Asuka and Shinji to force themselves into a relationship if they only keep making each other suffer once more. The caress is a hopeful symbol, but Asuka's coldness and 'Kimochi warui' kind of show us they haven't defeated their inner ghosts.

As I said on the "I Need You" thread, although you didn't like the sentences, there's a huge difference between "Being hurt is inevitable when you interact with others, but the joy and necessity of it makes is worthwhile" and saying, "Consistently toxic and harmful relationships are worth it because of the slim hope you'll get something good out of it". Asuka'sBigBrother, as we're discussing on the other thread, your view is quite optimistic, while mine is rather pessimistic (I've read even darker views than mine, though), and as for now, neither your now mine is "correct". I don't think what we see in Last Scene is enough to conclude that everything will go well between the both of them. It can all explode again.

Many of us think that the pain they caused to each others was simply too much to be forgotten and forgiven. It's not that they had some problems, but that they had huge problems, and those obstacles might be too hard to ignore in their future.

Being with others can hurt, but can be happy; but constantly hurting others, just for a slim sense of hope is what doesn't make any sense. The masturbation issue is already one very delicate matter Shinji will be ashamed of and Asuka will be disgusted with; but the list is a lot longer. A list of bitterness.

----

@C.T. 1290: Nice to meet you. I’m glad we share a common view on this matter. As I see it, a platonic epistolary friendship would be already a realistic “happy ending” for the both of them, after they’ve somehow reconciled, but are with more stable partners.

In any case, despite our agreement on most of things, I think you’re a bit harsh on Asuka and maybe too indulgent towards Shinji. Asuka is absolutely to be blamed for some of the things she did and how she treated others using them to release her own self-hatred. However, Shinji, albeit being the main character and being very relatable, becomes an utterly despicable person, especially near the end. He’s not free of guilt, for he behaved selfishly almost all the time, asking others to help him, while he didn’t ever try to help others sincerely (perhaps because he just couldn’t possibly help others, being as broken as he was).

He knew Asuka was similar to him, after he saw her tears while saying “Mama” in ep.9, but he never tried to become an emotional support for her. Take the kiss scene as an example: Asuka, who uses the memory of his mother to make him accept, firstly waits for him to take the initiative; he doesn’t move; she proceeds with it, and Shinji is excited with it (oh, human contact! yay!), but doesn’t move; Asuka is waiting for something else and waits... waits... waits... until Shinji, almost suffocating, pushes her. He just cared about what he felt, but didn’t even think about Asuka’s emotions at that moment. He’s a teenager after all, curious about the opposite gender and craving affection; but he’s not willing to give anything, just taking it.

Another good example would be the Last Scene: Shinji, out of madness, brutally strangles Asuka (for whatever reason, be it to prove her existence, to kill her, or as a hallucination from Instrumentality), to which she unexpectedly responds with compassion. But what does he do next? Just curl up and cry like a baby. He's received kindness from the last person he could have expected to receive it, and all he can do it to cry? Even though she's made the effort to reach out to him, he, once more, thinks just of his own pain, and cries. Well, then there's no wonder why Asuka shows such coldness in the end (that and, obviously, the nauseating memory of him "showing her some affection" in the hospital). It reminded me of how she says "No" in the Kitchen scene, seeing Shinji as the pathetic being he is. She's no less pathetic to a certain extent, but at least she was strong enough not to shed a single tear, although she had reasons to.

In contrast to Shinji's avoidant personality, Asuka was considerably more "active" trying to get closer to him, although erratically. She even dared asking Shinji for a kiss, most likely out of frustration/teenager curiosity. She even visited him in the hospital. But, what did Shinji offered to her? Nothing at all. Asuka did her best to show some sort of "kindness" towards others (even to Rei, her Nemesis). But no one gave her anything. Not even Hikari, her best friend, could manage to help her; and, of course, NERV's only purpose was to use her as a pilot, regardless of her emotional angst. She's indeed a tragic character, whose attitude didn't help her become closer to the others either.

That’s why Kaworu was like a dream to him: he offered him an impossible kind of love, in which Shinji would receive but not give. Pure happiness, but not real. Such kind of relationship simply cannot exist, and thus Kaworu died.

And, even with all that in mind, he dares accusing the Trinity of Women of being “ambiguous” with him, and even told them “to be nice to him” if they ever wanted something in exchange. He is undoubtedly selfish, and in EoE, becomes immoral and despicable. That’s why, feeling so much related to Asuka as I feel, I can’t help but to despise him. I don’t exculpate Asuka for her faults, but Shinji is far from being innocent whatsoever.

Moreover, C.T. 1290, I think you see Asuka as a kind of “red devil”, but that’s not exactly what she is. Due to her childhood trauma, she had to build a façade not to allow others see her vulnerable heart. She’s lonely, but doesn’t want to show it. She’s in need of help, but will never ask for it. She’s prideful and strong, but deep inside her soul, she’s just a crying little child.

Again me shamelessly defending Shinji :facepalm:.Because of whitewashing. :emogendo: . I am sorry my Asuka :shinji_ditto:
:asuka_wut1:
Now due to the issue I said down there it's been 11 times.oh god.here a copy paste.
Again lots and lots of white washing.Sigh I have to write this post again and again.And damn it.its only because whenever I post this comment.A forum comes in front and asks for filling of name and code and whenever I do that.my post isn't posted but my whole comment is gone

Because of that now I am sick of explaining line by line so I am pasting whole paragraph so do some comprehension for me..i hate it that I am commenting 2025(well I did another comment with same form ast this to get people's view if i wma wrong or right) I know I will get very less response(Atleast arguments)Sighhhhh.

So here I go 7th time.And this will not be my best explanation because sof that issue.sigh.

For your first 4 paragraphs.I think both have taken there first step.Shinji rejected instrumentality.Which should be hardest thing for him to do tbh.And again i know you will be same person who will say it was easy for him.Sigh he said "I should die to".And for Asuka she forgave Shinji and had shown empathy by caressing him.Now again The title I need you is not only for Shinji,The fact that both are there.To he in context why did Asuka came to Shinji walking then?(Last A).Again empathy is explained by caress but why walking to such a wishy wash person?Because she needs him as well.It could be either romantic or either human needs.But it is both logically speaking fo which.Intrumentality ans every doubt that both have for each other.And the fact that Asuka only and only came to him that she wants him.Both wanted to connect to each other before(For Shinji's 0 try I will explain later).It can imply that Shinji has longing(even if it's hormonal)if not then why else a girl like Asuka will come walking to a pathetic Shinji if he didn't wanted her.That' my ans with lots of repetition.However my romantic mixed angle can be bombed down by needy factor (Shinji asked for help)so yeah I don't mind that either. :emogendo:
I know it will be hard.But they have to do it(even alone).And again it's there wish.There's no difference between them having million childs and them killing each other.And for your slim chance comment.Both have already very slim chance to have intimacy with other(Except if we have mari and kensuke of rebuild who had gone through some shit)(However one possibility they part ways get some therapy ,And after years they can have intimacy with others and atleast become good friends,Still a happy one for me,I am not talking about eoe but aftermath).Espacially Asuka tooo.She is also a reck.Like Shinji.So again they are the ones(most probably)who can give that each other intimacy Yet it depends upon Shinji now.Sugh that's a bad ending. :emogendo:
And to be in context.The hospital scene(well that's a obvious thing i have anybody to lash out on me, it's empathy :wink: ), It's not only Shinji relieving himself(however it becomes,damn it). It's also him Daring himself to do something given to his hate for himself.Its him to communicate what he couldn't when she is conscious(Because of fear of rejection) which becomes a questionable act and it's selfish.(I am dropping this because she said "So do it like you always do,I will watch it","If i can't have all of you i don't want any of you"Which is a confession and berate but I take it as confession that she is also intersted in him sexually to and she was also not able to communicate that properly.So please be sincere).
Fro hospital scene in my opinion it is inexcusable but utterly explainable,How?
First let's what Shinji does to Asuka,First was he aware of what he is doing?Did he planned?What is his auidicity?
First read from somewhere out what is the mental problems of Shinji,What are his fears and how much they effect him and can he be blamed for those fears.It's very easy,If you have to blame him you indeed have to blame the world(around him)(I am talking about his problem fro now).Shinji utterly hates himself for not doing what he could have done though he is also neglected to a very nice extent,Think about the teacher,He is no good than Asuka's father,The fact he didn't even bothered to contact him literally after living 10 years with him,What are expecting Shinji to be.Then take sandbox scene,Now let's say that scene is about Shinji's childhood.You can feel his pain in that isolation.There was going to be extra scene where teachers,And his peers talk about him like how useless shit he is and if I take it that he endured it even for 2 years(for sensitive child like Shinji),I can't really blame for what he is there in eoe or in series instead I would call adults fool to make him pilot.
Just look around his auidicity is high now note his mental health.
Now since I have got drawn some empathy now let's come to scene.Shinji shakes Asuka,when she don't respond he stops for a moment to think and shakes her again.Now Here he is acting irrational,He knows she will not wake but still he does that,It clearly states he has some degree of thinking but it is overtaken by impulse(to be saved)because as the lake scene depicted that he has no wish to live and if he has know wish to live it means he is now on his intincts and if that's the case he is protecting himself subconsciously that's why he still insists,Now he accidentally tore or opened Asuka's gown,There is a moment of clear shock and the n.... With closed door........ .
But literally after doing it we get his pov of his hand, Immediately Asuka is blured,It is an clear panic.

The blur in itself shows when he started doing it he didn't have clear thought.And for locking the door indicates he knows what he is doing,But the question is why?
Simple,It's because he couldn't controle the urge,Because at suck times you are Dam damn damn damn desperate for some escape and I am being honest ,Sexual urge is first,Because I used to see women as a dolls(not utterly it's just i can't controle those intrusive thoughts,they never go no matter how much I try)like Shinji yet now I am alright .Shinji here saw an escape,But that's not the problem,He saw it as an escape is NOT a problem.The problem is that his thinking is impaired to stop himself.Do you think a normal Shinji of Episode 7-13 would have done that.Simple ans is NO.Here he is not thinking anything,Anything clearly.
Misato is pushing him to get him into the eva,He clearly(i don't know how clear)knows Asuka is fighting atleast 7 evas yet he still resisted Misato.It's the same boy who yet jumped into an volcano without a single thought to save her yet he has not a single obligation.Some thing has gone shit.showed genuine concern many times for her yet failed to help.He would have normally done something so that someone don't die within his hands or range.here he don't want to do it.
Let's ans if he planned.
In hospital Locking a door doesn't means he planned something.Descision here is an illusion.He don't have will to resist his intincts now,Its not a episode 9 kiss scene,He knows unlike there, he knows(not clearly because if he knew I don't think it is cable of doing by a sane man or boy)But as I said logic, Rationality and will has lost its value here.He can't controle himself.Its an irrational response to irrational trauma.

Or simply his reasoning is moderately impaired,He knows what is right and wrong but most of the act is sheer impulse.He can't controle (his body) yet knows.
Another view point.The whole scene is about Shinji.Like come on.How much Asuka did you got to see?We just got head his moans,His hands just some instruments(with nice level of art) and just Shinji's shadow on Asuka.Even after the act Asuka got blurred.
It's not to show how fucked up he but how Distant and Selfish he is.).
(That's why is saying is it is inexcusable because he knows what he is doing(not clearly).But he is also unable to controle such acts..Hence u explainable.)
(And for harm let's say Asuka is extremely harmed from such thing,Think about what will a high court judge(because he has the experience)will do? Will he jail Shinji?
No jail is not a place but a mental hospital or atleast visiting a doctor twice a week.Even a dumb will say that.)


For after that comment [email protected]. 1290.Bruhh you are again trying to put her responsibility on other characters who are also fucked up.For example (well don't count these)you call Shinji despicable in times of(near) insanity(the time when you think love is fake,it's not to be taken lightly)?If that's the case most of depressed people are despicable who once put there whole bottled up anger on one person because they became the trigger of it.The problem is not that you are keeping blaming Shinji who is(Near) insane in eoe. In Again hospital moment wasn't him enjoying Asuka.Or you want him to enjoy her? It's to show how fucked up he is(His reasoning is moderately impaired ans I will argue even that is not good which means they will indeed be very impulsive)(mostly).(Like it's same Shinji who once saved Asuka,toji and kensuke,Rei.).and you are saying many things like he likes doing that.I means wtf.its despicable and it should be criticized.But the way you are taking it personally and making comments like Asuka is an angel :asuka_chansu-2-1: and she is not at fault(she is not in eoe I am talking about her downfall).Calling a character despicable because he fell down at the worst time possible?Is that good?Calling a action despicable is good but not charcater.You can blame him but not just give him a tag which is not good on your part.Calling a Morally striving character ignoble is not good.Come on he's a human and he will develop.And what are your standards forgiveness,be honest.Even Asuka will forgive him after years even if she chooses to dump him because at that point he deserves anything.(The paragraph on your demeanor towards Shinji for not being neutral.)

Now comes the true part.for kiss part(you are too much white washing her.And creates zero difference between you and people who have infinite sympathy for Shinji).
Before that Episode 16,Commentator dzzzthhinks comments on fcg that "Asuka:“There you go, always immediately thinking that it's your fault!”
dzzthink: This is the main concept of splitting and is quite bluntly pointed out by Asuka. The unrealistic thinking of the extremes of one's self. Even the banal conversation at the beginning of the episode where Asuka shouts at Shinji becomes something that Shinji feels guilt for. The subsequent montage goes through many of the negative experiences Shinji may have felt bad about.""
Asuka's each comment can have varying effect on Shinji's perception of Asuka.If,Even a banal comments can become something he feels guilty(think about childish his thinking is).
Come on Shinji talks to Rei and I think he supported her.Because she was nice and somewhat(he was)more vulnerable than Asuka(Actually she didn't pinched his fear of rejection,He feels safe mostly to be somewhat vulnerable)(I know she has mother instinct.,but let that she berates him like Asuka.now what?)(It doesn't make Shinji good but to be on point that Shinji is not in full fault)
Now think the amount of berate she does to Shinji throughout the series.think about it how much she pushes him away.OFFCOURSE HE WILL THINK SHE HATES HIM AND DONT WANT HIN AROUND.OFFCOURSE HE WILL THINK THAT SHE DONT 'NEED' HIM.And that's why Asuka is equally in blame for that.She expects Shinji to magically understand her(or try to even after what I explained),to solve her problems without expressing that in a clear way even after knowing HE IS A IDIOT STOOGE AND WILL NOT UNDERSTAND UNTIL EXPLAINED.She is selfish in this case.Its similar as Shinji wanting but not giving.
And kiss scene is not what you want to depict.Its misunderstanding.Shinji really took her kiss as her "becuase I am bored".And my explanation explains that's why he didn't hold her.Its her who is stupid to say that(nice versa :emogendo: ).He was even disappointed from the fact(however she is not at fault here.no one is).If she is bored.Tbh if I was there I would have done same(nothing just conservative Asian things),Thanks to him being conservative(not wholly)japanes,Because she said she only wants him for her physical gratification.Or simply here's a simple comment from a guy like me https://youtube.com/watch?v=kME7NJrxhow ... MbsDjjgfHF (@ASOthepro) .Remember the whole scene is to show miscommunication between both of them.Asuka takes Shinji's passiveness as a rejection.After the kiss her reaction will clearly give a big NO to Shinji .as I explained above he will think that she is not interested in him or he fucked up but is confused how?He will get damn damn damn guilty after this.Yet still they chose to talk,how nice.

And for Asuka's mommy issue.There is not even single repetition of it.And Asuka don't let that happen.Thanks to the image she creates of herself in others.And please it's her fault.Not others.And also do you think through that moment he knew her every secret?( I will even make assumption he forgot that).

For your Asuka visiting hospital :shifty: .
You have episode 22'.You can a make a parallel between Asuka curled up on a ball and Misato leing her head on table.In Misato's case Shinji wanted but wasn't able to relieve her.In Asuka's case he knew she will shout,He was fearful at that time but didn't get away,tried to tell her the he was glad to see her alight,After her shout he was standing there,thinking of breaching those mental barriers or not,but again he was unable to get through that.So he was to be blamed after because he didn't tried to help her,However she also ran away this time to Hikari's house,She actually said herself in episode 22' "You're being sympathetic... which means I'm really down now.".Which means Shinji didn't ignores her and tried but again I think his try wasn't good enough.

And this explains most of it why Shinji didn't gave her emotional support.Becuase it's Asuka's and Shinji's mistake combined.And I think you should agree to this rather than listening to your emotioks.And blame other characters.Both are equally responsible.

And again for Hikari's case you are partially true to be honest.But again the same case applies here.She never ever showed her vulnerable tell me single time when she does show that to her except episode 23.Just getting to her apartment one night and then crying I hate everything everyone.What will she think(Again nobody at fault tbh).(However she utterly fails to catch her).

So Yes—Asuka tried, and no one reached her in a way that healed her.
But also—she made it incredibly hard to reach her.
This isn’t because she’s evil or toxic—it’s because she’s a child who never learned to believe in love. :emogendo:

Sigh She is,Actually.i call her the most pissed off character one can find in history of anime.And I think I should validate you for that.But white washing is not good.Agaik I have to cherry pick and white wash some tooo and that's because of you.

First of all let's get to imagery of the chock.Through imagery of the helm kitchen scene after chock it depicts Shinji as an abuser through imagery,Now there is a parallel between Unit 1 strangling unit 2 and him strangling Asuka.It means the strangle is not in his controle or again sheer impulse,The same case inexcusable yet explainable.Then we get imagery of Asuka rejecting Shinji thorough the series in orange.His most of rage is towards Asuka.So i agree with you that he has clear intent of killing her.here.
But let's come to Last scene.I think you are wrong here because it is very hard to say what does he wants to do.Evawiki says he was confirming if he is individual or if Asuka is a doll.Now even if it's an act of murder oke can't clearly say wtf happened here.And if I say that he had killed her.I will have no comment.Because i have not a simple clear Ans like how a calm Shinji started Strangling Asuka.His eyes are not shown.But from his mouth ,i don't think he is in rage.Because if he had been,Then he would have shown his teeth.
And if he would have done that out of fear that 'She will blame me or she will be rude with me' well it has even lesser chances.Because if he had clear intent of killing her he wouldn't have stopped after her caress and have such a shocked expression.After shocked expression he still would his hands on her neck to think to kill her or not.
Since after caress he immediately(do you understand immediately)stopped,It means he wasn't Trying to kill her but to understand something.That's because of its last A he really would have been alone for atleast 1 or 2 weeks.
And he has just saw flying Rei standing upon water.Which is not possible for real person.Saw another thing that would have asked him to confirm.And the title also kind of say that.I need you.Hence hegel fits better.
For his crying:
It could be 2, no! 3 things combined.counting last a(1)He is relieved that he will not have to die alone(given to the Asuka's grave)("Can't live without ones you care").(2)It's reality(again it's both happy and sad thin
Well this gets seperate.
g)(3).He remembered every wrong deed he did especially to Asuka.And now here he is doing that again,Failing others.(that's most probable.And I think it's a small win,Atleast sorrowful).
(Well agree with you.its self hugging)(But self hugging is a very short part.He is been a atleast 2 weeks alone if I take the dirtied cross of Misato it's even more.And I want you to forget footstep of him.He has lost his hope of watching anyone.His state should be as of Last B.Fir now I am using Hegelion method or what Hegel says.But the tears should be of happiness.but they are clearly sad.So it means Shinji i s not relieved.He remembered what he did to Asuka.because now she is not a doll(symbolically due to eoe he was able to destroy or atleast is trying to destroy the doll of Asuka in his mind).And when he cries on her because now he has her memories to.

He just realised he was on Asuka the whole time.
So many lessons in one cry.thats why I say there is a hope that Shinji will help her.Abd for his own mental problem actually both have to support each other.Because I think there will be time for 2weeks to 1 month of people coming back even then we have no evidence whome will come and can try live with them ..So they will be alone and I am pretty sure they can get suicidal.That's where both have to help each other out of there way.And the fact both of them know that is true.And for Asuka she already came out of her way.Shinji....,if he is really what I explained then I can think he can contribute.That's what i Call Asushin.).

Again she has th reasons.And she is strong.So what?she is naturally(I think due to her mother's illness she got really really mature at early age, That's where she started building herself and became strong.Shinji is opposite).Shinji is not Asuka.There failing are not equal.Shinji destroyed a world,He failed everyone.Even previous fails are with him.Eoe was also shit for him not only for her(but she suffered more).He don't even know if people will forgive him.if he will forgive himself?.Worlds cruel.Whereas Asuka suffered(oh god man it)But she only and only failed herself to be honest.Shinji failed whatever you can think of.It's hard.Asuka it's hard.

i think she needs a character like mari with whome she can open herself.Again let's say Kaji becomes her age and do what kowuru(infinite love) do for Shinji.Again she will not be able to reject and he will easily break through her walls like kowuru to Shinji.Again she will escape (i mean clinge)and escape due to Kaji.And he will become her world.The only difference is she will try to provide something.But again he will become her world and has to die.and i don't think it will be meaningfull

I think he cared for her,or cared for others but again was unable,similar to the case of Misato in episode 21'

My comment was because of you white washing her and eDepicting Shinji like monster (well I have read your other comments but you didn't edited this one my friend :D ).And again you remarks at second last paragraph proves that you are begrugding with him.(However I Support your Asuka part.And indeed she is better to some extent but if actually start counting them comment will be damn large.)but still most of eoe is out of (Near)insanity(primal instinct) and i think you can't deny that and judging or creating a mental picture due to worse time is not moral i think.i think I explained earlier.and the fact you didn't edited that I think you should educate yourself like Other extreme A/S shippers for begrugding.
But
If you call Shinji immoral and ignoble while fully knowing his trauma — the abandonment, the manipulation, the unbearable pressure — then the moral failure isn’t his, it’s yours. He’s a 14-year-old boy shattered by a world that used and discarded him, begging for basic kindness in a system built on cruelty. Condemning him for breaking under that weight isn't moral clarity — it’s shallow, performative judgment. If you know his pain and still call him despicable, then maybe it's your empathy that's missing, not his.

Again I have no need to count his mistake.Its the most discussed thing.But still I am angry.But i actually like what you do.Nice.But I pointed what I think was wrong and where you failed to understand him and where you white washed Asuka.
Shinji is responsible for his downfall.Same is Asuka.
Asuka is not a classic bitch neither Shinji a complete I explained how her erratic behaviour leads Shinji to believe that Asuka don't want him and will push him away. And if you think that you can't protect her become a feminist leader and stop million Shinji 's,Or ask anno to delete Shinji :emogendo: .Offcourse he did in one of the Live actions.

Edit:wait i think I missed many things so yeah I will take 3 or atleast 10 days(I am little busy) to edit it again.i have ignored Asuka I think because I have to research Shinji too much to understand if he has anything for her.And I think he should but the same problem is here.(Before eoe)He is childish,Asuka's berate will make him think he is not needed in her world.So he will probably not make a single move to atleast express his sexual(Well that's distant thing for a 14 year old boy)or any desire.neither Asuka is like his mother(Rei) which will make him curious of her.And he will be with her to only validate himself like her. That's where not only him but she is selfish.however he is more of a selfish.But the misunderstanding is true.that's my honesty.

Hey and I am little confused tbh.Because again I am positive mostly because of
"Theory and Analysis:Final Scene in End of Evangelion"on eva wiki
This damn thing.Abd that's why I am mostly defending Shinji here and saying that he didn't wanted to kill Asuka but see if she is real.But still i want to ask how much should I trust this source?

[Kharis1212]

@traumalamb
I think you explained most.i got wasted.
Edit:I think the thread is about Asushin.so I think the thing up there in bad writing still is my best to counter @CeasarMegnus 's arguments while also trying to defend which is pretty much i made bad curry due to, so it's better make a seperate post

So this to Counter CaesarMagnus's arguments that they are totally incompatible which which is kind of foolish to say(yet being total shipper is also foolish to say).Again it's due to eoe that we ship them.Or we r still forced to.Yet i myself ship them.Sigh,stupidity.
First of all since most accusation is about Shinji so let's unpack it.

Shinji saying that Shinji is only hormonal.I think it will be damn incorrect I explained upp there how his 0 try is kind of mixture of 2 things ,first his stooge,then his foolishness.
First let's get into Shinji's insensitiveness and sensitiveness for others.Its hard to say if he doesn't care about others perspective.If i ignore his desperate times(anything after episode 23 or simply Rei's death and her revelation)and remember healthy times(well before toji's...... )I get to see a mixture.Eg episode 12,He gets insensitive about others during party like asking why are they noisy but being party pooper himself.But also wonders why Asuka is angry and tries to get perspective,Because tbh Asuka is kind of Unreadable for him,This the dialogue from where I kind of say that he likes(not'love') or is interested in Asuka because why bothering asking then,like come on a girl just lives besides you and is kind of nice, sociable(sometimes). then He Says "yay" for Misato for giving them a steak party after knowing she is kind of upset.montage don't stop here.however after wards i don't see much of them when he sees things from others perspective But toji pointed it out right "Well, I guess it depends on what you've got to give.”.After each times he utterly fails to catch any one's perspective either because is on a very good sensitive topic or We know he is an idiot stooge.

In Asuka's case he utterly fails to catch her needs or what she wants to say.Eg kiss scene.Again I will not blame him for the kiss,Again he fails to it through her eye but I know he is clearly confused,because she said I am bored ,I guess he didn't took it seriously then and actually frozen there when she stormed of,a thinking wtf I did here.However he manages to ask her what is wrong clearly knowing that he may get Berate one of few tries to understand her.
Again after kiss scene I think he will be more terrified of saying anything because anything related to intimacy
Results her in pushing him away or Berating and above their explanation tells everything.
However it gets hard to if he really wanted Asuka because Rei could be his love interest which I don't think so is(as you said he is lusting over trinity of women,one is gone,Rei) like when he says "you act like mother",we know he really thinks like that, He compared Rei's smell in unit 0 to mother and his wording implies that he was thinking about it from a long time,and for your Misato.its mixed.I don't know tbh.acc to episode 16 and 20 maybe he sees her as mother figure, but can't figure out why he has that sexual feelings which he rejects.Again he rejected Misato's offer yet was willing to accept her offer in eoe.damn.Upon it he don't know wtf fuck is sexual feeling.

Ahem moving moving to topic.
The first interaction is Asuka and Shinji are in a position.We see Asuka being aggressive and Shinji again being passive.Since it's his minds.It means that's how he percieves it.Intimate position but unable to connect.It means he wants her intimacy but can't get through because he thinks of her as a rampaging animal.

There aren't much of his motives are ambiguous.Like during eoe Asuka says "Idiot! I 'know' about your jerk-off fantasies of me.
Do it again like usual... I'll even stand here and watch." In Japanese she says something of Side dish which implies that he had something for her.Even during intrumentality instead of totally ignoring him she opted to umm(bad english warnings) atleast pass anger filled comment ,corrected him.Which again kind of implies he had something for her But wasn't able to show her peoperly.However it is only sexual but it kinds of make me ummm skeptical.Like is that all?No romantic feelings,affection?Just sex?Well she has sexual attraction to him like then why would she open her body to him in episode 9,kiss him in episode 16.
But if she is a sex doll for him it's pretty hard to say that she would say such things.Then she would have outright rejected him like in kitchen scene.but instead she makes confession.
Because the previous strays of shot show her important part in zoom.
(And we need to note that both are constantly looking into each other's mind like then why named post-intrumentality?).
So I guess with that side dish statement she had also seen some genuine attachment and romantic feelings before.

If I come to kitchen scene.again nothing much.Again 99% of act is out of desperation and 80 %of sheer impulse.
Umm i don't know if this is pirates or something.
I am actually directly copy pasting a statement of @Weird_ocean in reddit about why Asuka rejected Shinji.And that Is the best non biased explanation.Well I guess guy you should post here,he's wise .
"She says all this, because Shinji was sitting on the fence about Asuka the whole time. He was not being able to say that he loved her, and he was not being able to tell that he hates her. He simply did not want to take responsibility. He did not want to make a decision. So when after all that he crawls down on his knees to her, she have no respect for him. It's actually like that in relationships in real life. If a partner shows up at your doorstep only when he or she have problems - that's pathetic. Shinji never GAVE anything to Asuka as a man or a lover, but there he was begging for help, saying that he loves her (I don't actually remember exactly what he said)

A partner that is only willing to TAKE and not GIVE is worse than a partner that hates you. In the same scene, he says, "How can I understand you when you don't say anything? That's why I don't understand you." But that's just an excuse. In reality, he was too afraid to take the firs step. He wanted things to be safe, he was afraid to learn the truth. What if he confessed his love, and she rejected him instead? That would hurt him. He's afraid of being hurt, he runs away from his pain. That's why he would rather not do anything. Asuka actually kissed him. Asuka did what he should have done. He's a man, he's supposed to take the initiative.

By agreeing to a kiss, and then acting like nothing happened, Shinji humiliated Asuka. She was willing to give him a chance, but he never took it.

Now, that being said, I'm not saying that Asuka was in the right. Whenever Shinji tried to act as a friend, whenever he tried to show sympathy for her, he was rejected. That's because Asuka also was unable to GIVE in this situation. She was not able to communicate with Shinji on a normal human level, because she simply was too afraid to let anyone close, to show her weakness. That's on her. But there is no doubt that she WANTED Shinji to break her walls down. But Shinji was too busy building his own."(However I don't think that,it's only after bardiel that he started doing that.)(well that can be placed with my previous explanation above there,about his selfishness)(and also Asuka utterly failed to confess anything.Shinji is just damn stooge idiot to understand what Asuka wanted to confess during kiss scene).

And his statement matches with what Asuka says about side dish.
Same can go in kitchen scene.But here Shinji just wants her to be his doll.To comfort him for(not by sex) but being nice to him unrealistically.This will validate himself.but not her.

Asuka is only able to open and able confess during end of Evangelion.Shinji was just rejecting others human needs at such point.Its until in intrumentality that he is now truly grounded and able to listen to others.Like come on most of the critiques ignore how impulsive he is yet i don't say he shouldn't be blamed,but since it's not much in his controle his culpability reduce down to a certain(well sometimes great sometimes moderate) extent.
Before attacking unit 2 he was concerned for Asuka yet he had to do that like killing kowuru.However didn't visited her in hospital because kowuru became his world or simply said I love you which just broken his every wall at such times.

However Asuka is partially wrong when she says she is replaceable.Like if Shinji is acting like sociopath.He clearly knows chances of her rejecting him are very high(it's intrumemtality,melding of minds)because before pre intrumentality was his lowest,not during post-intrumentality,However his chock is still an impulse stated by anno through imagery.Still out desperation he confessed(I am not in his favour).Which she rejects and has every single right.because at this point he is neglecting her human side.
However it's hard to say anything.Because it's intrumentality like damn why he doesn't know about her intentions neither her,like she is still talking to him.She was expecting Shinji to just pathetically again run away from her.Tgis time was not intending.He chocked her because he was Tired of her behaviour.From start to end he was tired of her behaviour.He took every berate but didn't do any harm intentionally.Yellow images of her being angry shows that most of his rage was towards Asuka.

Now it's really really hard to say.Did he watched her as a doll in good times?Did he tried to understand her?Did he even cared about her?

Because we can agree that in(nah after episode 23) eoe he is not in a right state.But he was in good times

Let's come again to Her saying you are using me as a side dish.Again as I said it's not good for a girl,If Asuka can rejecting him and his help.why not this.Why will a girl like Asuka not reject him when she gets to know that he again dolled her in his mind before.But she says that "if i can't have all of you,i don't want any of you".

Again another view point is that people like Shinji"In psychology, when connection is impossible, repression often leads to fantasy as the only "safe" outlet."
Or Shinji DAMNLY wanted Asuka or wanted to connect to her,Not sexually but emotionally also.But Asuka's haughty nature didn't gave him a way.So he started imagining her,Now his sexual thoughts very very much repressed,So I guess his sexual thoughts also got mixed here .Maybe that's how it is.He was deluding because he don't have anything else to do.
That's stated in orignal lyrics of Everything you've dreamed."I wanted to kiss her" it's an statement which means want of intimacy with someone,"but I was hurt",Meaning he was desperate at the time he told her.Or simply neglected her not because he wanted to but because he wasn't able to."i hurt her with kindness" now that even confused me.Because I guess that she hates his sympathy so that's an explanation.Om this song I can explain most of Shinji.
And again Rei or Misato wasn't the one's who said that he was using them as side dish.Asuka accused him.So I guess she was his romantic interest from a long time.

for question.I don't think so.As he stated himself,"I think feelings were true before".If that's really the truth then I don't think that.Because again,If he saw her as an escape before,it's hard to say he would have ever tried to talk to her.Because escape is always secondary.

Well yes,he tried but his try was not good enough as stated by Weird_ocean.He was afraid of her,she pinch his rejection mechanism.Though tried.But either she was mortified at that time or wasn't able to reciprocate.
Similar goes for Asuka.She tried.But with good tries came good blunders.During kiss she stated,"Because I am bored",he really thought she wants him for 'just a kiss',So why will he hold just let her kiss and go,after kiss you can see his confusion.So when she tried he was either to passive or wasn't sure of her emotions.

From what I can see he cared.He saved her,was concerned,Again indirectly saved her,Was frozen to see unit 2 thinking if Asuka is alright,was thinking about Asuka while fighting unit 2.
Heh you can make a parallel between Misato crying over Kaji and Asuka curled up like a ball.
In each case Shinji knows that something wrong with both.Like he is not stooge enough to not a parallel of Asuka in episode 9 and her now.And as I said he clearly knows that a large shout is on the way.But instead of really backing away he chose to comfort.You can see he is trying to think what he should say now.
And Asuka in herself conforms"I might have been more downcast because Shinji is showing me comfortable"(heh i don't remember the exact dialogue but meanings of both are same).So it means Shinji tried and care about her.However as I said,his try was not good enough.

I would just say that he was selfish like her,There circumstances are not right,there mental state is not alright.thats all because I am sick of typing now,I have been making this fucking post like from long time,but the same problem I mentioned above is here.Sigh I am really mortified now

[JoelcrNeto]

Although this thread has already been recently intervened by another moderator, I have decided to remove most of the recent posts.

I will be more forceful regarding certain behaviors from now on, especially toxicity and incivility. I will keep this thread temporarily locked while I look into a few more things.

EDIT: the thread has been unlocked.

[marchon]

- the last movie poster we see A/S with their backs turned to the viewers looking into the distance. Granted, can't see their faces, but we can see their BODY LANGUAGE. Neither of them seem tense, they seem relaxed. Almost at peace with each other. A rather positive scene and also the last thing we ever see of Evangelion canon unfortunately. At the very least they don't seem to be tense and dare I say they are almost comfortable

It's also a mirror of the end of 22.

22's ending has the caution tape, with Asuka pushing Shinji away, and Shinji afraid to approach others. Their issues in a nutshell.

The EoE poster has the caution tape removed; Asuka has let someone get close to her, and Shinji is now comfortable approaching others. This is purely a physical reading of the poster, but in my opinion it's meant to be taken on an emotional level as well. And the Hedgehogs have found... something comfortable at least, for now.