Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Zoop » Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:41 am

Well sort of. That was the story of Darth Plagis, or at least, being able to manipulate life or give life.
Darth Sidious (emperor) tried getting those secrets from him and killed him. Tho he didnt manage to get those secrets.
Fan theory goes that his experimenting with these powers caused the Force to react and spawned Anakin.

SPOILER: Show
Anyway, they made it a big deal, a rare and extremely difficult power. And Rey, like all the Jedi skills, just happens to know them, without proper training.
The livegiving wasn't so farfetched, it was established before, but they certainly underplayed its importance.

What is, is when the Emperor gets fullpower again (unlimited powahhh) because he steals this lifegiving power (?!?) from Rey and Ben (they are linked) to restore himself (his initial plan was the same with Luke, to get striked down and let them take his place).
And then starts shooting force lightning at the Rebel Armada, knocking them out of the sky... That was ...really ... wtf... It really became fullblown space magic at that point. Oh right, and Finn is Force Sensitive too apparantly (because he feels Rey "dying") They just started throwing it around because "its cool" not because it makes sense

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Postby silvermoonlight » Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:27 am

View Original PostZoop wrote:Well sort of. That was the story of Darth Plagis, or at least, being able to manipulate life or give life.
Darth Sidious (emperor) tried getting those secrets from him and killed him. Tho he didnt manage to get those secrets.
Fan theory goes that his experimenting with these powers caused the Force to react and spawned Anakin.

SPOILER: Show
Anyway, they made it a big deal, a rare and extremely difficult power. And Rey, like all the Jedi skills, just happens to know them, without proper training.
The livegiving wasn't so farfetched, it was established before, but they certainly underplayed its importance.

What is, is when the Emperor gets fullpower again (unlimited powahhh) because he steals this lifegiving power (?!?) from Rey and Ben (they are linked) to restore himself (his initial plan was the same with Luke, to get striked down and let them take his place).
And then starts shooting force lightning at the Rebel Armada, knocking them out of the sky... That was ...really ... wtf... It really became fullblown space magic at that point. Oh right, and Finn is Force Sensitive too apparantly (because he feels Rey "dying") They just started throwing it around because "its cool" not because it makes sense


Thank you for clarification and that bit with the Amada and the thing with Finn is well out there since it's not in any of the other films or even hinted at though I really liked Finn and Rey and that was the pairing I was hoping for along with Poe getting an onscreen boyfriend but I guess that was too much to ask from JJ...who only cares about tokenism which was why I didn't want him back in the driver seat after what happened with Star Trek into darkness. I think he's only good for the first movie of any trilogy then he utterly looses it.
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Zoop » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:58 am

SPOILER: Show
Nah Finn was supposed to be paired with that Asian chick, but somehow that caused so much backlash (other than it was extremely poorly written, i dont get the hate towards her), so they dropped that and gave her only a 10 second scene.
Just like the Codebreaker, all sorts of new characters that aren't relevant one bit.
Same with Phasma, kinda expected her to have survived and return later ... but nah, more unnecessary characters, really.

Like Lando Calrissian returning, a fun lil detail for the fans, but otherwise completely unnecessary.
Als a new cute droid (bb8 wasn't enough, apparantly), but why it's in there other than selling merchandise, no clue.

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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby silvermoonlight » Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:26 am

View Original PostZoop wrote:
SPOILER: Show
Nah Finn was supposed to be paired with that Asian chick, but somehow that caused so much backlash (other than it was extremely poorly written, i dont get the hate towards her), so they dropped that and gave her only a 10 second scene.
Just like the Codebreaker, all sorts of new characters that aren't relevant one bit.
Same with Phasma, kinda expected her to have survived and return later ... but nah, more unnecessary characters, really.

Like Lando Calrissian returning, a fun lil detail for the fans, but otherwise completely unnecessary.
Als a new cute droid (bb8 wasn't enough, apparantly), but why it's in there other than selling merchandise, no clue.


I heard those people hated Rose's character as she stopped Finn making the heroic sacrifice even though it's really clear he would not have made it and her move was the right call. I heard a lot of toxic groups jumped on that as women taking over Star wars along with outright racism.

Extremely poor writing has been by the looks of it the undoing of this new set of movies like I would not have minded Rey being a super-powerful Jedi if they'd just shown real training like Luke, but you just never really get this and this causes her to dip into the deeply problematic mary sue trope and Phasma also echo's that tokenism issue like look we gave you a female stormtrooper who is badass...but no we are gonna kill her in movie 2 and give her no real character development.

It makes me genuinely sad as these films with the right elements the right writing and love for the franchise could have been amazing but as Reichu says the mouse is not worthy of your cheese...
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Postby kuribo-04 » Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:34 pm

There was never anything wrong with Rose.
But a huge ball of irrational hate formed, a combination of racism and distaste for supposedly "sjw" agendas (wtf).
Only thing I'm not crazy about is the kiss scene. Yeah, it's a little awkward and the message seems too innocent.
It's nothing that makes the character deserve that backlash though. And they could have kept using her and expanding the character.
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Postby movieartman » Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:51 pm

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:There was never anything wrong with Rose.
But a huge ball of irrational hate formed, a combination of racism

Eh, I really don't think that was a tangible part of it. The 2 Asian characters in Rogue One didn't get any hate. It's more about her being less than attractive for mainstream taste plus her character at times being overly emotional which equals her being annoying to some people. I don't agree with these stances, I found her cute at times but otherwise I was indifferent to her. Like Finn I think she was wasted in Last Jedi on the casino planet crap.

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:39 pm

^ Forgetting to mention the two Asian characters in ROGUE ONE were men and that you just talked about Rose not as a character but as an object to be looked at that was “cute at times” is a perfect summation of everything.

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Postby movieartman » Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:29 am

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:^ Forgetting to mention the two Asian characters in ROGUE ONE were men and that you just talked about Rose not as a character but as an object to be looked at that was “cute at times” is a perfect summation of everything.

(1) I was making a argument that racism wasn't the issue and so them being male wasn't relevant. Yes sexism might still be a issue.

(2) I specified that I find her cute in order to show that I did not agree with the people that dislike her because she is supposedly ugly.

(3) Just because a person discusses a characters appearance as its own thing with its own value does not mean they care only about that aspect of the character or see them as a object with that singular purpose. Your jumping to extremes too easily.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:00 am

It’s been too long since I’ve seen TLJ in order to have a fresh opinion. Gonna watch it later after I get ROS on BD just to kinda assess exactly why these Disney movies don’t work for me.

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Postby Giji Shinka » Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:09 am

I saw Rise of Skywalker through very legal means (I'm not going to give Disney my money) and it was absolutely terrible and I blame both JJ and Rian for this.
JJ set up mystery boxes in TFA that never had answers to beging with, Rian then subverts expectation just for the sake of it in a way that breaks the story, characters and serves no purpose in the grand scheme of things and then JJ has to fix Rian's mess while trying (and failing) to give satisfying conclusion to things that never had answer.
This trilogy has been a huge waste of time and potential.
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Postby kuribo-04 » Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:34 pm

∆ The two main subversions in TLJ are Rey's parents being nobodies and Kylo killing Snoke.

Rey's reveal is the hardest truth she could be confronted with.

(This also draws attention to how formulaic the story had gotten, since we all expected a "X is your father" reveal. The actual reveal is also even more crushing since we were so sure Rey would get her happy family relation due to the formula. And it all works naturally, not like IX.)

Kylo's act not only makes it clear that he is worse than Vader (he does NOT join the light after killing the "Emperor") but also sets him up as the main villain for the last movie (something JJ ignored).

How are these subversions just for their own sake? They continue the drama from the prior film and lead to the next one.
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Postby Giji Shinka » Thu Dec 26, 2019 2:34 pm

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:∆ The two main subversions in TLJ are Rey's parents being nobodies and Kylo killing Snoke.

SPOILER: Show
I would have been fine with Rey being a nobody if there was no mystery related to her parents, but no, JJ had to establish that there was something going on with them in that childhood flashback Rey had.
I hate overpowered main characters like Rey with stupid mystery (possibly powerful) parents, but at least try to explain and make sense of why they're this strong. Unfortunately, Rian made her a nobody, ruining the shitty mystery JJ set up and her being overpowered made no sense in the story when TLJ was out.
Then in ROS, JJ made her a Palpatine, which makes the whole plot point better and worse at the same time: better because now we know why she's so powerful with the force, but worse because she's a grandchild of a villain that was brought back through hack writing. It also ruins the poorly thought out "Your parents are nobody" - plotline Rian created in TLJ.

Killing Snoke in TLJ was a bad decision and the worst subversion in the movie, because we barely knew anything about him and it's made worse by the fact that he was just some clone or experiment created by the emperor.
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Postby kuribo-04 » Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:02 pm

In retrospect the Rey thing works though in TFA. SHE is obsessed with her parents and with those memories of her being left behind. That doesn't mean they actually were important.

I don't think Rey is too powerful either. The first film was called The Force Awakens, so I understood it as maybe this person is an abnormality in the Force. Similar to how Anakin was apparently stronger than normal.
It's also the same old strategy used even in things like Dragon Ball, where newer characters reach certain goals faster because it might be boring to see the entire process again. It doesn't necessarily make THAT much sense but I don't think it's that bad in this type of story. I never saw SW as a "training type" of story. Even when there are masters teaching, it's mostly about morals in the scenes we see.

Other than her fast Force learning, I think she is a pretty normal adventure heroe though.
Nobody complains that farm boi Luke infiltrates and blows up the Death Star, and is one of the few X-Wing pilots to survive (a ship he never flew before but his comrades did).

Regarding Snoke, we know what his name was, so we know more about him than we ever did about "The Emperor" in the OT.
He's also a tool to serve Kylo's development more than a full fledged character, and I think that is completely OK.
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Postby TheFriskyIan » Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:27 am

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:I don't think Rey is too powerful either.

Able to completely mind-trick a Stormtrooper without even knowing if she was force-sensitive or not (let alone train on using it), beat a trained dark-side force user without any experience with a lightsaber, takes out three TIE fighters with a single shot from a moving Falcon (it was also probably a 360 no-scope, would a gamer girl go for anything less?), shoots enough lightning out of her fingertips to completely destroy an entire ship (before this movie the worst we saw of lightning was seriously damaging/killing a person), and healing massive wounds including fatal ones.

Rey is extremely over-powered, has absolutely no downsides, and any possible threat in nullified by how Godlike she is.

Nobody complains that farm boi Luke infiltrates and blows up the Death Star, and is one of the few X-Wing pilots to survive (a ship he never flew before but his comrades did).

A bit Gary-Stu perhaps, but his character arc wasn't established outside of going on an adventure by the time of the first movie's writings. In Empire he gets his shit knocked down numerous times, once in the first five minutes of the movie.

Regarding Snoke, we know what his name was, so we know more about him than we ever did about "The Emperor" in the OT.

At the time of the OT's writing, the Emperor existed in a vacuum. We didn't need to know about him as much because there was little to no story outside 4, 5, and 6.
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:34 pm

This movie...

SPOILER: Show
EXT. SITH PLANET - NIGHT

Kylo Ren storms into the MOUTH OF AN EVIL-LOOKING CAVE.

INT. CAVE - CONTINUOUS

Ren sees a DARK, HOODED, EVIL FIGURE, tethered by EVIL CABLES to an EVIL MACHINE feeding the evil figure evil life.

Everything is all very evil.

The evil figure evilly turns to Kylo, his evil eyes evilly gleaming in the evil moon light. Evil.

The evil figure evilly speaks evilly.

EVIL FIGURE
Go for Papa Palpatine!

KYLO REN
Wait, what?

EVIL FIGURE (PAPA PALPATINE)
I made Snoke, I made your grandpa,
and I made your girlfriend’s dad, too!

KYLO REN
Ewwwww!

PAPA PALPATINE
There’s nothing wrong with a little
incest just so long as you’re trying to
keep all of the midichlorians in the
family.

KYLO REN
I guess it’s my own fault for being
concerned with bloodlines so much.

PAPA PALPATINE
Yes, now shut up while I use broken
sci-fi/fantasy tropes to resurrect
myself.

... just ruined itself by being both a typical J.J. Abrams space opera sequel AND the typical third film in a Star Wars trilogy. I don’t know what I was expecting, but I guess I was supposed to have been expecting that instead.

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Postby kuribo-04 » Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:30 am

@FriskyIan
I already adressed the Force stuff with Rey in my previous message (I'm talking about Rey in VII and VIII btw, what IX does is completely different anyway since now she's retconned into being Palpi's granddaughter and the entire movie sounds bad anyway).

I don't understand how her beating Kylo is still a debate four years later, when TFA clearly shows Kylo is conflicted over killing his father and has a wound from Chewbacca shooting him (the same weapon that one shot kills several people in the same film). Meanwhile Rey finds inner peace during the duel by not being a deranged psychopath like her adversary.
Combats being won by reflecting instead of being agressive is Star Wars as shit, why is this being questioned.

takes out three TIE fighters with a single shot from a moving Falcon (it was also probably a 360 no-scope, would a gamer girl go for anything less?)

Honestly starting to think your problem is just with her being a girl.
Also that shot of the Falcon is awesome, why would you not want that in a freakin fun space movie?

And Luke is just a bit Gary Stue, because...?
Did you see how in TLJ Rey's innocence brings herself and others in danger by starting to trust Kylo? That's her arc in TLJ, I don't care if she no scopes TIE fighters in an action scene that's meant to be triumphant after her learning experience.

And these stories were also meant to be their own thing, I would have liked the two sides to be more defined too (First Order and Resistance) but I don't see how knowing more about Snoke would have brought anything to the movie. He should have died that way anyway, knowing more about him might have been pointless runtime. He was always just the guy that pulled Kylo to the dark side.
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby C.A.P. » Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:53 pm

Saw Rise of Skywalker the day before it came out. Packed house, probably one of the best movie experiences I've had.

I have more positive memories of that audience than I do for the movie. And this is coming from someone who thought The Last Jedi is a good movie.

I feel like the Coyote having dynamite blow up on his face after experiencing this trilogy. Lucas would of made more a much more memorable trilogy.

Now if you excuse me, I'm going to find good books and games and TV shows to get my mind off these movies.

At least we got a good Hans Solo movie out of all this.
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Postby MirrorUniverseAsuka » Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:12 am

View Original PostC.A.P. wrote:Now if you excuse me, I'm going to find good books and games and TV shows to get my mind off these movies.


Try the real continuation of Star Wars, perhaps. The names Zahn, Anderson, Stackpole and Stover will guide you.
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Postby silvermoonlight » Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:17 pm

Wow, I have no words I just saw it as I had to go with friends it's just one set piece to the next with them trying to make every character have a romance even if it's not justified and makes no sense Ren/Kylo is the poorest version of a redemption story ever it's unbelievable, insincere and utterly lazy writing.

SPOILER: Show
The moment that lost the film for me was the valley alien horses running on a Star Destroyer its an utter WTF? And it jars out of the movie so bad you can't take it seriously anymore followed by the Emperor throwing lightning at the fleets, and the whole Jedi can now move stuff from one to the other like wizards.

Also, I thought Poe was meant to be an LGBT character but it appears they just had to retcon that too because now he needs to be a man's, man like Solo.
Because in this movie he is a mirror of Solo always angry always casing augments in a way that's worse than the last film as no lessons are being learnt and nothing productive is happening and his whole plan at the end is not clever or smart it's a suicide mission and he just gets lucky.

I was also pissed at the add-in that princess/general Leia gave up on being a Jedi because she saw that her child was going to be evil in a vision, this is insulting and very OOC and no Jedi ever in the franchise just stopped being a Jedi, even Luke who stayed a Jedi but marrooned himself, its deeply insulting to Leia character it's like saying she can't hack it and was forced to choose yet is never forced to make this choice from what I remember in the old 90's/2000's media despite issues with one of her to children who had the same dark side issues in their teens. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Leia_Organa_Solo

So yeah this is hands down the worst film of the series and an utter insulting joke and I don't blame fans for being angry they have a right to be on this one in my view. The saddest thing is Rei though like this whole deal with the emperor being her granddad could have worked, it could have been amazing but the writing is so poor and I want JJ out of sci-fi for good he ruined Star Trek the same way he's now ruined this
Last edited by silvermoonlight on Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:51 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby chazthesilencer » Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:06 pm

I would have walked out of the cinema after the death-star destroyer showed up; but my lift home regrettably remained in their seat, watching.

Here’s something nice to say about The Rise of Skywalker:

Probably 5-10 minutes in- the main trio reunite on the forest planet base, Rey and Poe start arguing over damaging the Falcon/BB8, and Finn tries to referee their bickering.
This is a cute scene. Poe and Rey didn’t interact with eachother until the end of TLJ … how sad is that for your trio of main characters? :facepalm: :lol: ... so it makes sense that the two of them would still be developing their camaraderie, and Finn would have to be their peacekeeper.

The only other incidental highlight of the film came at the end when-
SPOILER: Show
Ben and Rey sucked face.
A child in the audience let out an audible: “Eww”
Cue chuckles from everybody in the cinema.

A similar thing happened during my cinema outing to see TLJ- some tit in the audience went “Whoa!” reacting to the light-speed ram.
Although that partially ruined a neat moment in TLJ... at least this child made a terrible moment mildly amusing for ROS.
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