C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:31 am

So, a character doing something more unbelievable (piloting Eva) is more believable than a character doing something believable (going to college)?

Got it.

I mean, I get you point. I really do. I just can't justify it in the logic of the show itself.

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby TheCarkolum » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:33 am

I think you people who try to guess if Asuka is "bad" or "good" are treading water. Real people is not good or bad. People does shitty things, and people usually achieve great things. First of all, you are morally judging or in general? I mean, you are discussing the fact that she goes to college at 13, or the fact that she is very talented. Does it make her better? Worse? In what sense?
View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:I still have a hard time understanding Asuka, like if she's a good person or not


The way you formulate the question makes me guess that you think there is a "deep inside" Asuka, don't you?
I mean, in the show she despises people, she only cares for herself and so on, but also is very nice sometimes and even funny (until she's not). For what I think, you want to like(or understand) Asuka, but you can't ignore the things that she did, so you're looking deep and try to find out what is her true being like. So, the problem is you're looking for something that is not there. My best advice is: accept Asuka as she comes, and try to understand she is a very "troubled" but a very brave and smart woman. Forget about the good or bad thing.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:56 pm

View Original PostTheCarkolum wrote:I think you people who try to guess if Asuka is "bad" or "good" are treading water.
The way you formulate the question makes me guess that you think there is a "deep inside" Asuka, don't you?
For what I think, you want to like(or understand) Asuka, but you can't ignore the things that she did, so you're looking deep and try to find out what is her true being like. So, the problem is you're looking for something that is not there.

What do you mean by that her inner self isn't there. We must remember that her brave(yet cocky) personality is her front, or at least some extension of her personality. So you mean to say that her arrogant and proud attitude is all that is there, so she therefore can't be humbled?
Forget about the good or bad thing.

Actually, the good and bad are a part of the foundations of life, the moral standards we set for ourselves. If we do wrong, we get Judged. If we do good, we receive gratitude. And remember that the choices we make determine our outcome, wether good or bad, depending on our choices.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:12 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:And remember that the choices we make determine our outcome, whether good or bad, depending on our choices.

And they are all mixed up; the world is grey, as are the people in it. Such a simplistic view (that people can be simplified to either "good" or "bad") is bound to lead to disappointment in practice, and may even have dangers; fiction which espouses this view is loses impact as a result - fortunately that is not the case with Eva.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:19 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:And they are all mixed up; the world is grey, as are the people in it. Such a simplistic view (that people can be simplified to either "good" or "bad") is bound to lead to disappointment in practice, and may even have dangers; fiction which espouses this view is loses impact as a result - fortunately that is not the case with Eva.

What do you mean by those points you've made there? That there is no good or bad? And how do such a view lead to disappointment and danger as you say?

And also, how do some work of fictions loses impact, if you don't mind my asking? Just out of curiosity.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby TheCarkolum » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:11 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:What do you mean by that her inner self isn't there. We must remember that her brave(yet cocky) personality is her front, or at least some extension of her personality. So you mean to say that her arrogant and proud attitude is all that is there, so she therefore can't be humbled?

Even if you ignore her cocky personality she still is very determined and brave, that's why she got the strength to be who she is. I mean by "there is not a true inner self" that there is not a real me. I am pretty aware that Asuka says "That's not me!" when she is mind-raped, but I think that she is just ashamed of herself. Yes, that's Asuka.

If you behave of a certain way toward the others as a façade and you keep it all your life, the façade becomes you. That's a basic fact. In the case of Asuka, when her mother dies, she decides to be self-dependent, full of herself and all the things she needs to build a strong façade, even when she is broken in the inside. She does that because she want to become strong so that nobody hurts her, but that brings up collateral effects: she becomes a cocky, as you said it. That's her and her attitude towards the others. But when she claims that "that's not me!", it's because she feels guilty of watching herself like that ego goddess she made herself. I guess if you can call true self to anything Asuka is, that would be "loniless". But that's just a feeling. How Asuka copes with that is what Asuka is.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:25 pm

^Hmmm. I've never really expected that Asuka would actually feel guilty (ashamed even) for the way she treated others. I'm willing to bet that after Instrumentality, she would look back on how she was before, do some self reflection, and later feel bad for the way she's been towards people, including Shinji especially. And maybe later on, she would try to make amends for how she acted and treated her "close friends" back then. But I guess we won't be seeing that happening anytime soon, now will we? Considering how the ending was left off. If Asuka has any chance of becoming a better person than she was before and start treating people with more respect, I would like to see it happened. Only then would I find her admirable.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Irohas » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:14 pm

Hmm actually to say they weren't ever attracted to each other is a bit nonsensical. Though it may have been for the wrong reasons, or because they were the only ones around each other when there was no one else, they still chose to rely on each other for the comfort they were looking for. That in itself with the multiple people around them that they could have confined in (Toji, Rei, Kensuke etc.) Gives us good insight that though there were other options around it was each other that they ended up relying on. The kiss scene may have been just a fling for Asuka to try, or just consolation that she wanted from anyone but it still ended up being Shinji that she wanted that consolation from.

Throughout the series mostly in the beginning it's very clear that she thinks low of Shinji, she sees him as some boring boy that she likely will never have any interest in. But as he begins to surpass her in Eva piloting her judgement of him begins to get proven wrong, and in response to this she reacts the only way she knows how, by constantly bashing him and his personality since she doesn't know how or doesn't want to admit that she's wrong or show respect for him. This is why her caressing his cheek in the end of the movie was huge development for her character, this girl that never wanted to show care for Shinji finally begins to approach him differently.

While it's true that she felt nothing but resentment for Shinji for most of the series, to say that that resentment never had moments of attraction is just simply not true. It's definitely a stretch to say that they loved each other, loving someone is so much more than what they were going through, they never shared a good understanding of one another until the end, or a real reason of seeing something special in each other.

Rebuild is a completely different story, we can say for sure that Asuka was at least interested in Shinji shown by her attempt at cooking for him, though this may have been in response to her jealousy of Rei attempting to connect with him. I also think that Rei harbors special feelings for Shinji in rebuild as well. But one thing to remember is that just because you look to someone for consolation, it does not necessarily mean that whatever you felt for that person was fake. Being attracted to someone and loving someone are entirely different things, but being attracted to someone is definitely the first step to loving them.

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:13 pm

You know, looking back on some of these posts and upon reflecting on them, I began to wonder, how can some people on here be so positive and certain that Asuka really isn't this bad or mean person I've been making her out to be? And that she has the potential to make things right with Shinji and others? And does she really care about Shinji? If so, how much? And what improvements can she make for herself after her experience in Instrumentality? And is there really this kind and caring person under that abrasive shell that Asuka has made herself throughout all her life? And in some fanfics, would she really be out of character for being genuinely nice to Shinji, or being outright mean to him, to a point of physically hurting him? Is she really that desperate to be close to someone that she doesn't care who they are, that anyone would do? Is that facade really what she is? All that there is to her? Or is there someone deep within the layers she put up? And what could she be without the EVA, if she were given a chance to be someone else, something more than what she is?
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Reichu » Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:10 pm

Asking questions for other people to answer does not seem to be giving you what you're looking for, and you know what they say about doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. So, at great risk of overstepping, I'd like to suggest a couple of things, from one autistic person to another.

The first thing is to acknowledge the limitations imposed upon you by virtue of your autism. You are prone to extremely dichotomous thinking, and show severe difficulty inhabiting the mind space of someone to whom you cannot already identify. The way you write, you don't really show any cognizance of the ways your own wiring is working against you. If you are higher functioning, there are ways to compensate for some of these built in limitations so they aren't quite as limiting.

Another thing is... One technique that helps me wrap my head around something that boggles or scares me is to just write about it. The words are for me alone, nobody else ever has to see it. Doing this forces my mind to approach a problem in a new way, process it with different kinds of mental machinery. You writing about Asuka, for instance by taking her POV and trying to experience things through her eyes, might help you because you'd be forcing yourself to actively identify with her and make sense of the link between her experiences and her behavior.

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:15 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:You know, looking back on some of these posts and upon reflecting on them, I began to wonder, how can some people on here be so positive and certain that Asuka really isn't this bad or mean person I've been making her out to be?

Simple: some people express their optimism, and the human condition is clearly observed to be that no one is all good or all bad.

Also, the amount of information available about a fictional person is tightly bounded, and generally far less than is known about real people - so remembering that absence of information is not good evidence for the absence of a condition, we simply are not in a position to say that she does not have the capability for good.

Finally, it is clear that some people interpret what evidence there is differently from you. Given the absence of further corroborative evidence, again due to the finite amount of information available, there is no indisputable cause to reject an interpretation which is not the one you prefer.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby anonymaus » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:58 pm

The reason people hesitate to call Asuka a bad person is because there are logical reasons why she's that way, and because there's another side to her that she doesn't expose to others because she thinks it would be perceived as weakness.

At the surface level she is obviously not a good or kind person. Anyone watching the series immediately realizes that. As you learn more about her backstory it suddenly makes sense for her to behave this way. In fact it would be strange if a thirteen-year-old who's gone through so much had a healthy sociability.
A polite and considerate human is a difficult thing to produce. There are different theories on what sort of upbringing is best, and none of them look anything like Asuka's horrifically traumatic childhood.
It's actually difficult to consider anyone to be a bad person once you understand the reasons for their behavior. This goes for real people too. Trauma stays with people and they pass it on through their behavior toward others.

The second reason why it's difficult to call Asuka a bad person is because there's clearly more to her than the face she puts on in public. In NGE we see her covertly check on Shinji in the hospital. We see her worry about Toji's induction into the program. In Rebuild she takes an honest interest in helping Shinji's relationship with his father, questioning him about it at night and learning to cook just so she can make food for their reunion.
It's not like you can consider her actions towards others 'fake'. They're a product of her true feelings. But how she interacts with others is only a small aspect of her personality, yet it's over represented because that's the only part people can see. Calling Asuka a bad person based on her surface level interactions is like judging an iceberg for the jagged harsh looking portion exposed above the water's surface. You're not wrong about that part, but you're also forgetting the 90% which is submerged.

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:21 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Asking questions for other people to answer does not seem to be giving you what you're looking for, and you know what they say about doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Well, the thing is, no matter what sort of answers I get in regarding Asuka's character, I still have a hard time being convinced that she can be capable of having any positive traits (other than being a good EVA pilot, of course.), e.g. her being nice to people, feeling guilty for being so mean, having a
heart of gold, ect. And because of the bitterness between the main characters, I don't really see her actually doing any of those things, as it would be considered out of character by some people. And there's also so many conflicting views and opinions on Asuka that it's difficult to tell which of them are true. And as TheCarkolum put it, there's nothing at Asuka's inner being (her true self) other than what we're seeing at a surface level. And that front she's put up is her real personality, the kind of person she actually is.

I know I've been asking these kind of questions before, and they get kind of repetitive, so I apologise for that. Some answers didn't quite struck me as clear, so I felt that the way was to dig a little deeper. And I believe the way for me to be totally convinced is for something to hit me like a ton of bricks. Though I think I'd be willing to try the methods you've suggested me.
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Postby Settie » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:58 pm

Well the outward facade is just that, a facade. There's quite a few examples of Asuka being kind and considerate, like one of the things that come to mind at the moment is Misatos offer to take the pilots out to eat, Asuka could've stubbornly asked for something extravagant but asked for a simple dinner instead. It's those kind of small details that show that Asuka wasn't what she appears at first glance. In regards towards Shinji, during her fight against the MP evas she asks why Shinji hasn't come out to help yet, that's Asuka having no problems asking and wanting Shinjis help which her pre mother catharsis wound never accept.

Perhaps rewatching the Asuka relevant episodes and looking at all the little details will help you with the issues you have with her character, as no one can tell you what opinion you should have of her character, we can only give you our opinions of it.

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Sachi » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:04 pm

Your position currently appears to be a Frankenstein's monster of different ideas pulled from different people, as if you're trying to appeal to all opinions. I think that asking others to inform your position is a good way to never reach a satisfying conclusion. Instead you should embrace your opinion of Asuka and justify it to others. During discourse, you may find more evidence to support your position, or you may find compelling reason to change your position, but try to keep the rationales logical.

When someone tells me Asuka is incapable of being a good person, my mind automatically jumps to the counter-examples of that thesis. My favorite moment of selfless good intent from Asuka is when she compliments Shinji on his cello playing. She may be a rather selfish character a lot of the time, but she's not like that all of the time.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Irohas » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:45 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:Well, the thing is, no matter what sort of answers I get in regarding Asuka's character, I still have a hard time being convinced that she can be capable of having any positive traits (other than being a good EVA pilot, of course.), e.g. her being nice to people, feeling guilty for being so mean, having a
heart of gold, ect. And because of the bitterness between the main characters, I don't really see her actually doing any of those things, as it would be considered out of character by some people. And there's also so many conflicting views and opinions on Asuka that it's difficult to tell which of them are true. And as TheCarkolum put it, there's nothing at Asuka's inner being (her true self) other than what we're seeing at a surface level. And that front she's put up is her real personality, the kind of person she actually is.

I know I've been asking these kind of questions before, and they get kind of repetitive, so I apologise for that. Some answers didn't quite struck me as clear, so I felt that the way was to dig a little deeper. And I believe the way for me to be totally convinced is for something to hit me like a ton of bricks. Though I think I'd be willing to try the methods you've suggested me.


To be fair to say that she's incapable of any positive traits is very unethical, one should never be judged for the mistakes they make as a young teenager. While there is logical reasoning that who she really is may be the type of girl that puts up facades we see her first real change in the EoE movie. Showing concern for Shinji is a huge step up for her character in a positive light, but to say she has a heart of gold is far-fetched. No one has a heart of gold and we can only do what we can to better ourselves, unless we're content with continuing mistakes and never changing.

Part of the reason Evangelion is left ambiguous is because human behavior in general is ambiguous, we can never know for sure where they'll end up or who they'll become in the future. What we do know is what's presented in the story, and Anno made it very apparent to us that Asuka at the very least made one small step up by showing concern for Shinji instead of completely cursing him.

In regards to her being out of character for feeling guilty or being nice to people i'll respectfully disagree with that, if she was completely incapable of being a genuinely nice person she wouldn't have done what she did post instrumentality, or volunteered to be a test pilot in rebuild so Shinji and Rei can have their dinner party. Maybe she'll be a bi*ch for the rest of her life, but to say she can never connect and work with people despite her flaws is far from the truth.

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:08 pm

View Original PostIrohas wrote:To be fair to say that she's incapable of any positive traits is very unethical,

Unethical how?
Showing concern for Shinji is a huge step up for her character in a positive light,

What we do know is what's presented in the story, and Anno made it very apparent to us that Asuka at the very least made one small step up by showing concern for Shinji instead of completely cursing him.

When was the part where she showed concern for him? Was it during the movie, or the series? Can't recall the part where she did that. That was at the end, right? Or somewhere in the film?
In regards to her being out of character for feeling guilty or being nice to people i'll respectfully disagree with that, if she was completely incapable of being a genuinely nice person she wouldn't have done what she did post instrumentality,

What did she do in post Instrumentality, again? That was where she stroke his cheek, right? Because that was after Instrumentality, not sure it was during her time in it.
Maybe she'll be a bi*ch for the rest of her life, but to say she can never connect and work with people despite her flaws is far from the truth.

How would it be far from the truth? I mean, we're not exactly shown what she learned during her time in Instrumentality like we did with Shinji. So we don't really know what improvements she may have made with herself, or rather planning to do. Also, Instrumentality doesn't seem like one big thearpy session to me, more like an acid trip. But I could be wrong about Asuka, as usual.
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Postby Sachi » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:14 am

Post-Instrumentality = after Instrumentality.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby pwhodges » Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:18 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:Unethical how?

You are judging her by denying the normal human process of growth and change.

When was the part where she showed concern for him?

You've been given two examples in the past few posts.

What did she do in post Instrumentality, again? That was where she stroke his cheek, right? Because that was after Instrumentality, not sure it was during her time in it.

Nobody said it was during it.

How would it be far from the truth? I mean, we're not exactly shown what she learned during her time in Instrumentality like we did with Shinji. So we don't really know what improvements she may have made with herself, or rather planning to do.

We saw her caress Shinji; and beyond that you seem to be once again denying the possibility of growth and change that you haven't already seen (and some that you have!). Also "planning" personal development is a mighty cold way to look at it.
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Postby TheCarkolum » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:44 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:^Hmmm. I've never really expected that Asuka would actually feel guilty (ashamed even) for the way she treated others.

Not for the way she treated others, but for the way she sees herself. In the moment she says that she is very vulnerable, and for a moment she is not in a -let's say- defensive position, and then looks herself and she refuses to accept she is like that (conceitful, demanding for attention, etc.). I mean, imagine you're sending to Vietnam (I know, it's an stupid example), and then you become a killing machine in order to survive. Then you return home and they send you a footage of you being in Vietnam killing Vietnamese people like crazy. Maybe you'd freak out wondering yourself how you were capable of doing such things and maybe refusing yourself to believe that's you. Well, that's what's going on with Asuka. Her entire life is a very stressful situation, where she made up her entire being in order to bear all the shit she went through, and now she has to be sticked to that personality in order to sustain herself. Of course, remember what I said before, her personality becomes her over the years, but when Arael attacks her, her entire world vanishes. Why? Because Arael in some way kills her. He strips off her pride, her guts and everything, because he breaks her armor. So, what's left of Asuka? Maybe her aim to fight loneliness and her will to survive (remember EoE's Asuka, she doesn't wanna die). Anyway, she now suffers a great trauma, because her amor has been forced.

C.T.1290 wrote:I began to wonder, how can some people on here be so positive and certain that Asuka really isn't this bad or mean person I've been making her out to be?

I don't understand you. You try to figure out whether Asuka is bad or good, but now it seems you firmly believe it's a mean person? Maybe you should stop letting you being influenced by other's opinions, because you know, a lot of people gonna love Asuka because she's hot and they gonna forget her personality. Asuka has done mean things, nobody can deny that. Top 3 worst things she did:
1- Leaving the poor guy on the rollercoaster without saying a word.
2- Slapping Rei for her pride, basically.
3- Hating everyone just because Shinji always won (when it was always EVA's fault, not Shinji's).
That's it. She didn't do too much, apart from these 3 things. Notice 2 of them (2 and 3) come from her pride. I admit the first one was unneedlessly cruel. So, is she a bad person? I don't know. I mean, we all have done shitty things in our life. Add the fact Asuka had problems.

However, I find curious that you feel that way towards Asuka and not towards Gendo, for example. I mean, he has done far worse things than Asuka has, and he is loved by many fans. So, why this attitude towards a teenager and not a grown-up man?
“The tragedy of growing old is not that one is old but that one is young.” - Oscar Wilde



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