Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:23 pm

I am VERY skeptical about the Justice League movie. I have very little faith in it being good, and I'm still trying to figure out what the hell the deal is with Cyborg. I have no problem with Cyborg as a character, but as a founding member? They couldn't get the rights for Green Lantern? Or the Martian Manhunter? Bit of a nerd-rant, but the whole thing feels disjointed, rushed, and awkward to me.

Not to mention Parademons means Dark Seid which means pulling out the heavy guns first off the bat. Maybe it's just Steppenwolf or another 'minion,' but goddamn...this is looking like all the same problems BvS had: too many story threads, all the main stuff up front first, general frigging mess, and the Eight Deadly Words.

...but Wonder Woman was fantastic. At least we have that!
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Postby Chuckman » Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:27 pm

I'm speaking from experience here.

One of the things that hurts a work of fiction the most is impatience. Writing is fun, and writing the big exciting parts is the most fun. In fact, Rachel Aaron, author of 2k to 10k, turns that into advice: Never write anything boring. Everything you write should be fun.

The problem with the DCCU is that they rushed it. Yes, they needed a full length Wonder Woman and probably a fully length Batman before they even made BVS. BVS tries to cram too much development into one flick: Establish Diana, have Bats and Supes meet, and establish a new, non-Nolan Batman. A Superman movie made in the 2010s has the luxury of defining itself; the last Superman is from the 80's with an oddball sequel from the mid-2000's, so Superman has a relatively clean slate. Batman, on the other hand, is coming off a successful movie series that firmly replaced the Burton films in the public consciousness and played a major part in defining the superhero film genre. Even with X-Men, Spider-Man, etc, comic book movies weren't a genre, they were weird one-offs that all did their own thing. Nolan really established an aesthetic and style that influenced everything that followed him.

So you have a Batman who is a totally different character, Wonder Woman who is visually recognizable but basically unknown character in the public consciousness, with her last big mainstream presence from a cheesy old tv show, and you have the problems of Snyder's Superman, who is, oddly enough, far too slow in character development because I truly think that Snyder just didn't know what to do with him. Look, he's going through a personal tragedy, but I'm not talking about him, I'm talking about a movie he made years ago: Man of Steel is a plodding, ponderous film that doesn't know what it's about and raises questions it doesn't answer and just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

That is a tremendous amount of heavy lifting for one movie to do. They need to slow down.

Unfortunately it's already set in stone that they're not going to and Justice League is going to turn Darkseid into a big angry goon with laser eyes and piss everyone off. Like every movie I will go in wanting to enjoy it but I fully expect it to be a life action adaptation of Justice League: War.

Here's a protip for writing Darkseid: No one should ever punch him.

He was the main antagonist of Superman: The Animated Series and Superman didn't hit him until the last episode.

https://youtu.be/ZyILB1cVS7g?t=1m21s
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Postby Gob Hobblin » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:35 pm

And there was a good reason for that: Darkseid is the top of the mountain. He is, for all intents and purposes, one of the ultimate DC villains in the pantheon. Instead of taking us up the trails, they just helicoptered us to the top. We've missed the journey for the destination.

It doesn't help, either, that the people creating these movies don't understand, or care to understand, the characters they're working with. Superman became a weird, quasi-objectivist story about...something. I dunno. I didn't care. BvS so fundamentally changed Superman and Batman and made everyone so goddamned dreary and SERIOUS I didn't care, either. It's the eight deadly words all through these movies:

I Don't Care What Happens To These People.

There's nothing in the Snyder films that makes me even WANT to care. I mean, I COULD care about a Batman that kills people and a Superman weighed down by the gravitas of his position as a living god, but...it never happens. We just see Batman kill people and Superman mope. It's lazy.

Wonder Woman did not fall into that trap. I wanted so badly to see where they would go with it. I loved watching Steve and Diana on screen together. I wanted to see more of Themyscira and the Amazons (thank GOD for the Amazon scene! They actually showed women with muscles! Massive women! Who could fight! And had scars and blemishes! And according to my rodeo-queen friend who saw the movie with me, actually knew how to ride horses!). I was THRILLED to see Wonder Woman go over the top and charge through No Man's Land! The latter third did drag, but I was still invested in it. I wanted to see where her story went.

That was good storytelling. Man of Steel and BvS was bad storytelling.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:06 pm

^ Yep.

Justice League is most likely going to be a lost cause. It was a project fully up & running before BVS hit theaters with the exact same creative team repeating what they did on that disaster. There will be comedic elements added to JL for sure to act as "course correction" but that'll be no different than comedic punch-ins usually done for a film. The comedic/lighthearted elements of the film won't feel natural to the story they were looking to tell which by all accounts was a continuation of "dark tortured souls & the dumb masses they don't really want to protect". JL will get a dramatic box office boost as the film where "Wonder Woman returns!" but the film will still probably be a repeat of Man of Steel & BVS. People will overreact & proclaim the DCU dead again but it won't be. I have high hopes for James Wan's Aquaman, Joss Whedon's Batgirl, Matt Reeve's The Batman & the soon to be announced Wonder Woman 2 from Patty Jenkins. I would be excited if another filmmaker was doing Gotham City Sirens but David Ayer is already on that so I'm sure that will be another tone deaf male gaze movie made up of nothing but ass shots. Still, things are up for DC. They seem committed to embracing the filmmaker driven ideology they once announced was their goal with this universe. With this & the MonsterVerse WB can hopefully turn things around.

Honestly, I'd put Wonder Woman up there with any of the great post 2000 superhero movies that elevate above the never ending superhero genre. Basically movies that work as actual character driven movies. It's a small list - Spider-Man 2, The Dark Knight, Logan & now Wonder Woman. It was great to be with characters who felt authentic & not victims of the Marvel Writing Syndrome where everyone is a quippy knock off of Tony Stark. The middle section of WW where the banter between Diana & Steve becomes key is wonderfully akin to charismatic storytelling of old cinema like "It Happened One Night".

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Postby Chuckman » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:33 pm

Burton's Batman kills people casually and I consider Batman Returns one of the best comic book movies ever made.
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Postby Guy Nacks » Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:34 am

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:It doesn't help, either, that the people creating these movies don't understand, or care to understand, the characters they're working with. Superman became a weird, quasi-objectivist story about...something. I dunno. I didn't care. BvS so fundamentally changed Superman and Batman and made everyone so goddamned dreary and SERIOUS I didn't care, either. It's the eight deadly words all through these movies:

I Don't Care What Happens To These People.

There's nothing in the Snyder films that makes me even WANT to care. I mean, I COULD care about a Batman that kills people and a Superman weighed down by the gravitas of his position as a living god, but...it never happens. We just see Batman kill people and Superman mope. It's lazy.


This 100 percent.

WW is, far and away, the most enjoyable of the DC movies post-Dark Knight Rises. I liked it, but not enough that were I to flip to it on TV I’d keep it on. Although, few movies I see these days do that anyway.

Chuckman wrote:Burton's Batman kills people casually and I consider Batman Returns one of the best comic book movies ever made.


Returns is so batshit with having grimdark gothic Burton visuals yet being completely fucking camp in parts (Bruce's sick CD scratching, fucking penguins with rockets, etc.) that it’s probably the most interesting Batman film from a tonal standpoint.
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Postby Chuckman » Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:56 am

Returns is the exact point he starts crawling up his own ass, but it's not tiresome yet.

Of course Sleepy Hollow came later and it's not too burdened by Burtonisms.
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Postby Gob Hobblin » Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:43 am

That proves the point well, Chuckman: Burton gave us a very violent Batman, and those movies were so damned good. It was good storytelling, and he got the character in a way few people do. It was camp, but he also took the concept seriously, which gave us a strong set of movies.

They tried to give us a 'new Batman' in these movies, and all they came up with is 'he kills a lot of people.' But even that's not new. Burton did it first (in cinema), and better.

The only thing that saved the character was Ben Affleck. Can you imagine what he'd do with a good Batman characterization? It would be amazing!
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Postby El Squibbonator » Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:47 pm

Just got back from watching Wonder Woman. For the most part, it really is as good as they say. It has the sort of humor and heart that are sorely lacking from the other DC movies of late, and it does an admirable job of highlighting the inevitability and futility of war. The only major issue it had was its over-reliance on romance, when it wasn't strictly necessary to the plot. That could have been improved, but compared to the other DCEU movies it was already a major improvement in and of itself. Whether the DCEU will retain this newfound competence when Justice League comes out is another matter entirely. Recommended.
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Postby movieartman » Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:44 am

Jenkins says WW2 will take place in America which I personally find disappointing, was really hoping for a Cheetah story out in exotic jungles & such.

View Original PostChuckman wrote:The first third or so takes place on a literal paradise and everything there is absolutely gorgeous and bright and colorful, and that is the point. This contrasts with the rest of the film, which takes place in World War I. It is drab and brown and muddy and things blend together for a purpose, and despite that blending it remains visually interesting.

Something Snyder did in Bvs just not to this degree.
SPOILER: Show
Image


View Original PostChuckman wrote:This movie could have easily turned into fetish fuel- imagine an island of Amazons and a superhero in a one-piece swimsuit and boots under the direction of Zach Snyder.

I seriously doubt it would be much different then what we got. Snyder never sexualized Lois or Gorgo at all except their individual single sex scenes. Faora & Dawn of the Dead's Ana wasn't sexualized at all. Silk Spectre was but such was unavoidable because of her outfit, he never zoomed in on her butt or anything like that. Sucker Punch was the exception as he was intentionally going for a sexy fantasy anime vibe which such is appropriate for.

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:Not misogynistic hate-filled manifestos written to angry 12 year old boys

Speaking on Snyder specifically, If you think...
- Giving us the most competent, least bitchy, least drooling over Clark, least overly emotional Lois we have ever gotten on film.
- Giving us one of the most badass female villains in years with Faora.
- Showing Perry & Lombard willing to stay & die if they can't save Jenny in Mos.
- Making Martha Kent a key part of Clark's life to the point that he still calls her or visits when he needs advice & is filled with uncertainty.
- Naming Man of Steel's production title after his daughter (the one who killed herself)


Is the work of a Misogynist you don't know the freaking meaning of the term.

If the rape scenes in 300 or Sucker Punch had been presented in a manner that suggested the female characters enduring it deserved it, you might have a argument but they did not, it was treated as vile ugly actions as they should be. Your blatantly wrong, Zack Snyder does not hate women. Period.

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:They tried to give us a 'new Batman' in these movies, and all they came up with is 'he kills a lot of people.' But even that's not new. Burton did it first (in cinema), and better.

Genuinely asking. How is Batman smiling, sticking a wrap of Dynamite into a guys pants next to his dick, throwing him into a pit to be blown to pieces handling Batman killing better then Snyder making it a actual plot point & showing it as a non positive that Batman needs redemption for?
Regardless if you think the end result worked writing wise, its crystal clear Snyder put more effort & thought into using Batman turned killer then Burton did.

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Postby Ray » Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:35 am

^ I generally agree with what you're saying, but in Dawn of the Dead. The rich guy had sex with the blonde in a pretty explicit sex scene in a montage, and had him with a top less woman in the end credits. . . So that kind of goes against your narrative. Although to be honest that was Snyder's first film before he broke into the mainstream with 300 and Watchmen.
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Postby Chuckman » Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:01 am

Sucker. Punch.
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Postby movieartman » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:51 am

Ray
Fair, it's been a while since I saw DOTD.
That said, remember DOTD was written by James Gunn and for all the good stuff he has done he was the director of one of the segments of Movie 43 which is probably among then worst movies in the history of cinema. (Or so I have heard)

Chuckman
I haven't seen Sucker Punch, from what I have heard he was going for a different tone & style to the Dceu. With Faora in BTS stuff, the designers said they wanted to balance sexiness with combat believability and Snyder told them to lean towards combat believability. I think he would go with the same for the Amazons.

With Sucker Punch the problem that I have gathered is that he tried to...
1.) Make a sexy carefree fun anime fantasy with fanservice & such of the female characters while kicking ass.
simultaneously while...
2.) Making a dark personal tragedy of female characters enduring abuse and fighting through it emotionally.
Both of those ideas are valid things to make that aren't harmful on their own but the problem was in doing them together #1 made #2 feel exploitative.
Snyder just didn't realize such, that makes him dense (or too close to the project) not a woman hater.

Yall want to talk shit about Ayer not doing anything with his female characters but being eye candy, be my guest, but with Snyder his positive choices towards his female characters absolutely out ways the bad. That isn't my opinion that is simple math. Only non positive female choice he made in the Dceu was having Martha Kent be kidnapped, that's 1 poor Choice vs the 5 positive choices I listed.

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Postby Sachi » Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:18 am

It's a good thing Wonder Woman is as good as they say it is. Being a female lead superhero film, directed by a female, you can imagine how bad things would be if the movie flopped. We would have had to wait another ten years before they attempted another female superhero, and then you'd get a bunch of people who'd believe that women can't direct action films and deny them opportunities for such in the future. I'm glad this film turned out great, even if I don't particularly care for the character herself.
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Postby El Squibbonator » Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:23 pm

I was actually more impressed by the film's discussion of the nature of war. Not many mass-market films--especially not superhero films-- go out of their way to mention that violence and warfare are something that humans will never fully overcome. War isn't caused by corruption by an evil force, but by a tragic aspect of human nature. The movie doesn't shy away from this fact, and for that I respect it.
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Postby movieartman » Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:37 pm

Angelina Jolie & Jessica Chastain are up for the same unknown role in X-Men: Supernova/Dark Phoenix...
The News that Magneto & Mystique would be returning brought this project way down for me but this piqued my interest for sure.
People are suggesting Lilandra? Really they are going to introduce aliens to the Fox X-verse this late in the game? I doubt it.
Maybe Emma Frost.

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Postby Ray » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:48 pm

Fox DOES own the rights to the Shiar, the Brood, and Skrulls (though the Skrulls are tied up with the Fantastic Four Copyright so who knows if they can even use them in the X-Men movies). So it's possible. I'm a big fan of the Shiar from the comics and the Ultimate Alliance video games. So If they do pull it off, I'm really looking forward to it.
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Postby movieartman » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:59 pm

Black Panther teaser.
Looks so damn good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxWvtMOGAhw
I have said previously this & Aquaman are the films I am most excited for, this has shown nothing to diminish that hype ^_^

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:07 pm

Just got back from the movies, and boy, I'm glad I picked these movies - Guardians of the Galaxy Vol2 and Wonder Woman.

First, GotG2, with it was simply another Marvel sequel, it certainly was a great sequel on par with Winter Soldier and Iron Man 2. They delved very well into Peter's origins, and casting Kurt Russel as Ego was probably the best choice they could make. Yondu was certainly the star of this movie though, and the fallout from the first film is tied heavily into this one. Groot was absolutely adorable, and having Gamora and Nebula make nice with each other sets up Infinity War pretty well. The plot was exciting, and certainly threw me for a few loops. The effects were as always quite excellent, and of course, it had a heap of feels at the end that I didn't want to deal with. Overall, I'm hoping they make GotG3, cause if they don't, somehow I think they're missing an opportunity.

Now, onto DC's newest installment, Wonder Woman. For once, the reviews about a DC film are correct, it was an absolutely wonderful film. First, the origin story for Diana was exceptionally done. The casting for her mother and aunt were on point (and Robin Wright did an excellent job). Gal Gadot pulls off the whole naïve innocent thing pretty well, and that lasts up to the last act of the movie when things come crashing down around her. Also, the use of WWI as a backdrop was far better, as its such an underused war in terms of current cinema. It was nice to have some Germans not being Nazis for once, saluting and all that shit. Chris Pine really added in a lot of comedy with his part, and he really lucked out with the speeches and everything, like he was explaining things to a child. I have to say even though the previous three DC films set fairly low bars, this one met that and set the bar to new heights, and if DC keeps this up, maybe Justice League will be fairly decent, but I digress. The action scenes were incredible, and the slow motion was tastefully done (no gratuitous panty shots), and the ending, once again, gave me a lot of feels. Having romance being a subplot to the movie makes sense, as I know some disagree, but it was integrated well enough that it didn't seem forced. Overall, I'm looking forward to her next solo outing.
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Postby Chuckman » Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:34 pm

Wow that looks like it'll be awesome.
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