Best Pair: What Eva Characters Do You Ship?

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Re: Best Pair: What Eva Characters Do You Ship?

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Postby Zusuchan » Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:14 am

SPOILER: Show
YTPrenewed wrote:
Do you think this scene was written with the phrase it would remind English-speaking viewers of in mind

I really don't think so. It would require way too much on random strings in the audience's mind making half-cooked connections to actually work, which is the reason I feel it probably isn't the case.

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Postby BernardoCairo » Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:42 pm

While looking at Shinji and Asuka's relationship, I think it's impossible to "blame" a single person for what happened. Otherwise, you end up limiting your analysis. There is more to look at than "who is to blame". It's fairly common to see people glossing over Shinji's actions in EOE. Sure, the character was at his lowest point. However, he's still Shinji Ikari. We are not looking at a new person. Ikari's mindset (which is the driving force behind his behavior) didn't come out of nowhere.
Shinji is, by all intents and purposes, a self-centred person. He basically looks at the world through a lock. As Asuka pointed out, Ikari is a dense guy. I mean, he was the last soul to notice that Toji would be Unit 03's pilot. Still, he cares about other people (he saved Soryu at the end of Magmadiver, for example). He just has a hard time looking at things outside of his narrow perspective. After hearing Asuka crying for her mother in episode 9, he immediately brought the situation to himself (commenting on how she is a child). Anyway, this "self-centered nature" greatly shapes his character in EOE.
Throughout the series, Shinji doesn't do much to understand Asuka. That, in itself, is okay. I mean, she sends mixed signals and is a difficult person at times. It's also okay for her to feel hurt by it, though. The "pathetic element" comes later. At his worst, after doing so little, Shinji begs Asuka for help. When she needed him, he wasn't there. Still, he wants her to love and stay with him forever. That's when his egocentric side comes out and leads him to do some horrible things
In this movie, Shinji and Asuka's interactions can be divided into three main sequences. These are the hospital, kitchen and beach scenes. Each of these moments complements the other and it's possible to notice some patterns when analyzing them.
The tone of their relationship is set by the hospital sequence. Frankly, Shinji was in that room for himself and no one else. He begged for Asuka's help, she obviously didn't meet his expectations and he proceeded to use her as an object. He completely disregarded her humanity just to feel worthy of being hated. He hurt her for his own benefit. It's not just about the action itself, but his mindset.
In the kitchen sequence, Shinji approached Asuka by saying that he wanted to "help her". Full of his bullshit, she tells him to leave. Note that she stopped engaging with him after episode 22. He is the one who keeps looking for some kind of dialogue (like that time he thought it was a good idea to tell a sick child that her favorite person had been murdered). Honestly, Asuka seems to want distance from Shinji. Unfortunately, he can't take "no" for an answer and that's when everything falls apart. Shinji was scared and came crawling to her when it was convenient. She finds him pathetic and incapable of loving himself. He cannot accept rejection and retaliate by giving up on her and humanity. Shinji hurt Asuka again.
Don't get me wrong, I feel there was some honesty in his words to her. We know that Shinji cared a lot about Asuka and was attracted to her. However, it was too little too late. He was trying to expand their relationship for every possible selfish reason.
Finally, there's the last scene of the movie. While Shinji is using Asuka's body to confirm his own individuality, he also hurts her (giving sequence to their "cycle of pain"). She could have responded to his actions in a number of ways, but chose to express kindness (stroking his face the same way Yui did). Asuka, who matured a lot during this movie, stopped projecting herself on Shinji and accepted him. Communication doesn't have to be agonizing all the time. Pain exists, but it can be forgiven.
In hindsight, Shinji is not a monster. However, he isn't a saint either. Through the circumstances of EOE, we see the worst side of him. (some of his poorer quirks were exacerbated). Even so, he has many qualities and Asuka herself noticed this on several occasions. I decided to focus on him because people usually only talk about the girls. Of course, Asuka isn't perfect either. That's why I'm a fan of their relationship. It's not cute, but realistic, hopeful and interesting to watch. Remember, I only talked about the movie. There's a lot more to cover in the series.

On the "crackship side", my favorite one is AsuKen. That's because of Angelic Days. Kensuke is so pathetic in this story that it's impossible not to laugh. He keeps trying to reach her again and again, even though it's obviously useless. She doesn't even know how to react. Like, she's not mean to him or anything. She just tries to ignore the whole thing (lol). That sequence outside of Asuka's apartment is so miserable that I truly feel sorry for the guy. Honestly, he's a nice person and seems to care more about her than Shinji (at first). Poor dude. I like him.
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Re: Best Pair: What Eva Characters Do You Ship?

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Postby YTPrenewed » Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:15 pm

I'm not sure what you're referring to as when Asuka needed him. The only moment referred to by Asuka herself in the Arael sequence was when Shinji hesitated to kiss her in ep 15. She left out the part about how immediately prior to that she claimed Kaji was the only man for her. (It's not made clear whether Shinji knows Kaji's supposed to turn down her advances.) Of course he's going to be hesitant to let her kiss him out of "boredom" if he fears feeling bad about her regretting it. If anything, that should be taken as a further sign of how much he's come to care about her, especially considering that in ep 9 when he had yet to admire her quite as much he contemplated kissing her in her sleep. She also said "you won't hold me" but... it's not like she had a track record of reacting so favourably to him having his hands on her, even through a plugsuit, even for the most practical of reasons. (Ep8 battle, anyone?) She should've been more honest about what she wanted from him.

Ep 24 doesn't tell us how what happened to Kaji came up.

EoE he truly goes off the deep end, but maybe some people watched NGE and then commented on it before they got around to anything more than a few random clips of EoE. I know I used to earlier, but I just happened to have heard of the hospital scene from TV Tropes before getting into the show at all. If you're referring to the time he just sat there and stared at the bakelite, his own life was in almost as much danger (for all he knew) as Asuka's and he wasn't hesitating because he didn't care, he was hesitating because he thought the whole situation was hopeless.

This isn't to say Shinji isn't selfish, even pre-EoE; when you really think about it, even craving the approval of others can be considered a selfish motive, (as already pointed out in ep 25) just more subtly so than something like materialistic greed. But perhaps it feels more subtle because we're wired to sympathize with it. There's plenty of possible reasons craving the approval of others; and/or sympathizing with that; could've been more useful for much of evolution than it is now; perhaps it's common for the same reasons? Look at every online echo chamber or every other setting in which people cave to peer pressure. It's more normal than people like to pretend.

But I think it's not just "people-pleaser" tendencies, nor do I think the only other part of this is how cute Rei and Asuka looked. Maya Ibuki looked almost as cute, yet we didn't see his threats uttered at NERV HQ come with any "er... after I've offered Maya a fair chance to flee" sidenote. It seemed more like Rei and Asuka's faces drew his attention to how tough and clever they were, and between that and how they're both squadmates of his and therefore often around him anyway, his admiration of them snowballed from there. Whether it fell short of outright love or not, by the end of the series the same emotions could bias him toward harming them or protecting them from harm... protecting them when others seek to harm them, harming them if they reject him bluntly enough. (Not that he faced that choice with Rei, but if one were to extrapolate from the similarities between how he interacted with Asuka and Rei...)

. . .

I don't think 100% pure altruism is all that realistic to expect of people anyway, nor should we need to. We just need more constructive ways to channel the emotions we already have. It's like how kids pity the Trix rabbit even though he's fictional and has no bearing on their lives; they identify with being denied something they want. Not every emotion has to be categorized into pure selfishness or pure altruism, some are just biased empathy.

But yeah, where emotions can't be channelled more constructively, society needs to be the designated driver.

EDIT: Fixing some misworded parts of the post I can't believe I missed until now.
Last edited by YTPrenewed on Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby BernardoCairo » Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:50 am

YTPrenewed wrote:I'm not sure what you're referring to as when Asuka needed him.

There's one particular moment which comes to my mind. I'm talking about the end segment of episode 22. Shinji tries to console Asuka, but fails miserably. We can clearly see a space gap between them. His words to her sound vague and shallow. He doesn't understand the scope of what she just went through. It's a miserable scene. I don't know how she didn't cry.
I'll give him credit for trying to do something, at least. I see Shinji as self-centered, but not narcissistic. He cares about Asuka. I mean, he felt bad for surpassing her in episode 16. He knew how that was important to her. That said, he has a hard time looking at things outside of his narrow perspective. He fails to notice her in episode 10 or kiss her back in episode 15. That's fine. Shinji was not morally obligated to support Asuka and she sent some mixed signals. However, it's a bit "far-fetched" to ask her for love after everything that happened.
What Asuka needed was more friends like Hikari. Unlike Shinji (who had a nice bond with Misato, Kaji and the boys), she was basically alone. Despite caring about her, Shinji was unable to understand Asuka in general (during Instrumentality, Ayanami even questions if he truly tried). She felt hurt and started to distance herself from him. He continued to go after her, though. That led her to openly reject him and Shinji responded "aggressively".
I feel like Asuka was expecting a bit too much from Shinji. At the same time, he was unable to fully embrace her. Anyway, she was in the right position to reject him at that moment. He had literally dehumanized her in many ways and was looking for an emotional crutch. This was partly the result of his poor qualities being exacerbated, of course.
As I said in my original post, I believe that their future is hopeful. To understand the other, you must understand yourself. They both came out of the LCL sea and Asuka was willing to accept him.

YTPrenewed wrote:Ep 24 doesn't tell us how what happened to Kaji came up.

It's unsure how the conversation started. However, Shinji certainly thought it was a good idea to hammer Kaji's death over and over again. He was unable to cope with her denial. It was obvious that Asuka probably knew he wasn't lying. She was just trying to protect herself from the truth and he couldn't accept it for some reason. Maybe he was looking for ways to communicate with her, or something.
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Postby YTPrenewed » Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:59 am

View Original PostBernardoCairo wrote:There's one particular moment which comes to my mind. I'm talking about the end segment of episode 22. Shinji tries to console Asuka, but fails miserably. We can clearly see a space gap between them. His words to her sound vague and shallow. He doesn't understand the scope of what she just went through.

She didn't say. And it's not made clear whether her remarks during that sequence were in her own head or out loud on the radio. It doesn't exactly help that she pretended being saved by Rei was what upset her instead of, you know, being reminded what happened to her mother. Not exactly the most constructive first step for anyone looking for help or sympathy.


View Original PostBernardoCairo wrote:I'll give him credit for trying to do something, at least. I see Shinji as self-centered, but not narcissistic. He cares about Asuka. I mean, he felt bad for surpassing her in episode 16. He knew how that was important to her. That said, has a hard time looking at things outside of his narrow perspective. He fails to notice her in episode 10 or kiss her back in episode 15. That's fine. Shinji was not morally obligated to support Asuka and she sent some mixed signals. However, it's a bit "far-fetched" to ask her for love after everything that happened.

Eh, he's not entitled to it regardless of what he's done for her anyway. I get that. But he should have been entitled not to be smeared in-show as the one who was rejecting her.

And "fails to notice her"? Are you referring to the pool scene? He's trying to catch up on his grades his commanding officer called him out on while trying not to let himself be distracted by a girl who had already made him out to be a pervert multiple times; sometimes a valid criticism, sometimes less so. It's kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't for him at that point. Of course he'd go for the option that'd get him in less trouble.


View Original PostBernardoCairo wrote:What Asuka needed was more friends like Hikari. Unlike Shinji (who had a nice bond with Misato, Kaji and the boys), she was basically alone. Despite caring about her, Shinji was unable to understand Asuka (during Instrumentality, Ayanami even questions if he truly tried).

Again, that might come back to biased empathy. While being on opposite ends of the "emotionally repressed/emotionally volatile" spectrum (and even then, having a lot in common for what made them that way) they're still both girls he initially admired for their looks and eventually came to admire for their clever and brave ways too. And by EoE that admiration gave way to being upset they couldn't be his. Of course that'd prime Rei to identify with Asuka, especially during instrumentality. She's probably not as familiar with being offered a kiss by someone who'd on multiple occasions branded her a pervert, sometimes even for the most unintentional things, and then lashed out at for accepting the kiss.

Hikari was a damn near saint compared to most characters in that show. The other girls just smiled through their teeth and then sneered when Asuka's back was turned. Though I'm not sure if they'd expect some thrill-junkie like Asuka to be bored by mere platonic friendships; she was so bored by her date at an amusement park that she just ditched him, much less a platonic friend. Say what you will about how timid Shinji is, at least he's fit enough to relieve her boredom in other ways than just kissing if need be. If only she were more more honest what she wanted from him, he could've met more of her emotional desires as well.

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Postby BernardoCairo » Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:06 pm

I don't know why, but you're acting like I'm judging Shinji for not responding to Asuka's "advances". That's not really the case. As I said before, there is more to look at than "who is to blame". You can spend all day coming up with reasons why Shinji didn't notice Asuka in specific situations. However, it is impossible to deny that his attitude had an impact on her. Their dynamic is simple. Asuka tries to get Shinji's attention, but fails and feels rejected. It's easy for us to judge things based on our "outside perspective", but I can see why Asuka would feel hurt by Shinji's inertia. Is he guilty of it? No. I mean, he's dense and all (this is something we literally see on the show). That said, she did send mixed signals and wasn't clear enough. Frankly, I feel like Asuka didn't know what she wanted from Shinji until episode 22' (when she realized that he occupied a place similar to Kaji's in her heart). It was her pain, though. She acted upon it by avoiding him. Unfortunately, he wasn't able to accept it.
Is there anything more pathetic than asking for help by pretending to want to help? When did Shinji approach Asuka as he did in the kitchen? When did he say "I want to help and be with you forever"? He sought her out when it was convenient. We can trace this back to when she was in that hospital bed. Even Misato commented on how miserable it was for him to ask an unconscious girl for help. It's even worse when you remember that he broke after being rejected. That's when Shinji dropped the ball, in my opinion. He was idealizing Asuka and ignoring the fact that she was hurt as well.
As for her date, Asuka obviously wasn't interested on him. She was interested in Shinji, though. She rightfully praised his cello skills. What did he do after that? He despised himself. Shinji hates himself so much that he can't even take a simple compliment. That's why he initially decided not to pilot Unit 01 in EOE. It's not because the situation was hopeless. He just wasn't confident in himself and didn't want to take responsibility.
If you think about it, Shinji and Asuka shared a number of nice moments together. If the two weren't so lost in themselves, they could have built something special. When I mentioned Hikari, I wasn't talking about a "strictly platonic relationship". Just someone who would accept and truly care for her. Shinji needed it too (even if he already had Misato).

Anyway, their relationship is really intriguing. For me, the original version of "Everything You've Ever Dreamed", written by Anno, is the best way to describe their bond in just a few lines.
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Postby YTPrenewed » Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:03 pm

View Original PostBernardoCairo#927089 wrote:Their dynamic is simple. Asuka tries to get Shinji's attention, but fails and feels rejected. It's easy for us to judge things based on our "outside perspective"

"Judged" is a bit more subjective a term, but if what someone did was wrong, and they are at fault, they at the very least should be blamed. And misrepresenting someone's actions, whether deliberately or through misunderstanding, is wrong. Doesn't mean you can't also pity her; the idea that "hurt people" hurt people is underappreciated in real life, let alone fiction (and Asuka's last stand against the JSSDF was one of the most unforgettable moments in movie history); but you need to distinguish, if not separate, pity from blame. If we let pity impede blame, any would-be slanderer would think that all they had to do to get away with it was convince people it was an innocent misunderstanding.


View Original PostBernardoCairo#927089 wrote:Is there anything more pathetic than asking for help by pretending to want to help? When did Shinji approach Asuka as he did in the kitchen?

I mean, it was instrumentality. He had more reason than usual to believe he could understand her enough to help her in return. Just because you turn to someone with selfish motives at first doesn't mean you can't contribute your fair share. It was initially out of self-interest Asuka wanted to kiss him as well.

Besides, to a people-pleaser like Shinji, just feeling better about himself by actually!helping her would have been the next best thing. He settled for that before, like when he jumped into that volcano. The "easiest and least painful thing to do" would have been to date his fangirls in ep 3. He didn't do that.


View Original PostBernardoCairo#927089 wrote:Even Misato commented on how miserable it was for him to ask an unconscious girl for help. It's even worse when you remember that he broke after being rejected. That's when Shinji dropped the ball, in my opinion. He was idealizing Asuka and ignoring the fact that she was hurt as well.

I mean, that's only part of his more general pattern of underestimating what others were going through. Look at how he reacted in ep 23 after Ritsuko's stoic facade came tumbling down, tumbling down, tumbling down...

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Postby BernardoCairo » Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:07 pm

YTPrenewed wrote:Doesn't mean you can't also pity her

It's not really about pitying her. It's about understanding why she distanced herself and rejected him. I legitimately believe that there's more to human relations than "who's to blame". I acknowledge that Asuka was partially responsible for what happened to their relationship. However, I won't act like it's 100% her fault. Every relationship is a "two-way street". As hammered in EOE, he is also capable of hurting her. Don't take my word for it. Take a look at the original lyrics to "Everything You've Ever Dreamed". Also, although it wasn't his responsibility, he could've done more to help her (if that's what he truly wanted). He basically showed up when it was convenient and she pointed that out. Shinji was simply afraid of everyone else.

YTPrenewed wrote:I mean, it was instrumentality. He had more reason than usual to believe he could understand her enough to help her in return.

I think it has nothing to do with Instrumentality. As I said before, he was trying his best to use her as an "escape valve" since the beginning of the movie. Considering how he reacted to her rejection and brought the whole situation to himself (screaming that he wanted someone to love and notice him), I really doubt he was that interested in simply "helping". I'm not saying he was necessarily lying about his feelings (there's probably honesty in some of his words). That said, he was there for selfish reasons and she was in the right position to say "no".
It's funny how you brought the "kiss scene" into the table. There are several parallels between these sequences. Shinji and Asuka's roles are reversed, though. This time, he's the one looking for attention and having to deal with "rejection". The scale of what's happening is also bigger, of course.

YTPrenewed wrote:I mean, that's only part of his more general pattern of underestimating what others were going through.

Yeah, it's one of his character flaws. He is also unable to understand what Misato is going through, for example.
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Postby YTPrenewed » Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:16 pm

Eh, regardless of creators' supposed original intentions, I generally go by what made it into the final version.

I think one key difference between the kiss scene and the kitchen scene is that Shinji at least wouldn't try to deceive people into thinking he looked down on Asuka. (Not even that he's a paragon of honesty or anything, just that this doesn't seem like something he'd even want people to think.) Closest thing to that was his ego trip during ep 16's battle, helped along by her own flattery, and he regretted even that. It seemed almost out of character for him, (and I still wonder if the word choice "chauvinist piglet" was meant to sound like an accidental admission she considers him cute) but I bet even then if they asked him what he thought of Asuka he'd probably have called her the second-best warrior in the universe after himself. Before that moment, he was deferring to her judgment when wandering the tunnels. Since that moment, seeing her and Rei fight the angels without his help motivated him to return to combat.

By comparison, before the kiss scene, Asuka had just spent much of their time together calling him an idiot and pretending not to want him at all. If he calls her bluff, he risks never living down being wrong. He'd rather leap into a volcano for her without knowing the consequences than leap to conclusions at odds with her own words. Maybe Rei was Asuka's foremost rival for his attention (without even intending to be, for that matter) before he learned the truth about Rei. Or maybe he always wanted Asuka more, and she only mistook him for "turning to her out of convenience" because that's exactly what she did with him when she couldn't have Kaji. (Unless she preferred Shinji all along, in which case it's her own fault she pretended otherwise.) But in either case acting like his admiration for her comes out of nowhere is pushing it.

Speaking of which, blame isn't everything, but that doesn't mean it should be ignored. It's how you identify the source of problems to cut them off at the source.

I never interpreted "I can help you" as a claim of 100% pure altruism so much as "ok, ok, I just spent the past few minutes talking about what I want from you, now I guess I might as well briefly mention some of what I think I can offer in return." Again, I get that she's under no obligation to accept the offer, but I'm thinking of all the prior moments in the instrumentality scene where his longing for her were made clear... there's no way to disguise that as pure altruism and I don't think he was trying to.

More than anything else, I guess it's just somewhat refreshing this show rejects the false dichotomy between "guys just want sex" vs. "but if they want anything else from her, then surely they're saintly shining knights." Shinji doesn't quite fall into either category. Now if only more of those out there who can't challenge that dichotomy without jumping to conclusions about everyone who ever bought into it would just step aside to make way for those who can...

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Postby BernardoCairo » Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:46 pm

YTPrenewed wrote:Eh, regardless of creators' supposed original intentions, I generally go by what made it into the final version.

Fair enough. That said, it's important to point out that this song was eventually released. It's a nice blueprint of Shinji and Asuka's bond, even if it's not in the movie itself.

YTPrenewed wrote:Speaking of which, blame isn't everything, but that doesn't mean it should be ignored. It's how you identify the source of problems to cut them off at the source.

Sure. That's exactly why I'm not going to act like everything that happened was 100% Asuka's fault. It takes responsibility away from Shinji's initial inertia and subsequent aggression. Again, I acknowledge that she was partially responsible for the deterioration of their relationship. I'm just focusing on him because people usually only talk about girls.

There's another interesting difference between these scenes. Shinji wanted to kiss Asuka. That's something we know he was eager to do since episode 9. He wasn't forced to go through that situation. In the kitchen sequence, however, Asuka asked Shinji to leave and he insisted on staying. I don't buy the idea that he was there to help her in any way. Notice how fast he goes from "I want to help and stay with you forever" to "somebody please help me". I legitimately think that Asuka nailed it. Shinji was afraid of everyone else and came running to her. Even if he had feelings for Asuka (which I believe he did), anyone would be enough. That's why she said "no". If Shinji truly wanted to help her, he wouldn't have hurt her right after being rejected. This is not to say that his admiration for her came out of nowhere. However, he only took action when it was convenient. Up until that point, he was fine with hiding and using her as a mere "side dish".
At best, Shinji is a person who doesn't love himself. He is self-centered, but cares about his friends. Unfortunately, he "outsources" his happiness to other people. That's extremely unhealthy for a number of reasons. He idealizes Asuka, only to break down when she rejects him. She was right about this as well. Shinji is all he has and he never learned to like himself (this is one of the things they have in common).

YTPrenewed wrote:More than anything else, it's a little refreshing this show rejects the false dichotomy between "guys just want sex" vs. "but if they want anything else from her, then surely they're saintly shining knights."

Yeah. That's why Shinji is an interesting character to follow. He's human, nuanced and flawed.
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Postby YTPrenewed » Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:31 am

For the record I do not intend to make excuses for violence... nor the instrumentality equivalent thereof, which even without lasting consequences would at least feel like violence to those involved. I just don't think before that Shinji was trying to pretend his "help" toward her was some sort of charity thing, so much as what he can do for her in return for what he thinks she can do for him. It's all open to interpretation, of course.

If "anyone" would be enough, what was with his reluctance to even so much as smile back at his fangirls in episode 3? Or his statement that "nobody" wants him, as if they literally didn't even register in his mind at the time? Asuka said Shinji's "afraid of" Misato and Rei... yeah, Misato's twice his age and has authority over him (and if the sand pyramid scene is anything to go by, he hasn't fully let go of that pseudo-maternal image of her just yet) and he found so many truths about Rei jarring. But regardless of reasons why he wouldn't just "run up to anyone" the point still stands that he wouldn't. (And quite frankly, Asuka had waited until only a couple minutes prior to that to even say that keeping him to herself would've mattered to her.)

Other than that I don't think we disagree on quite as much as I previously thought.

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Postby BernardoCairo » Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:55 pm

When Asuka said "anyone will do", I think she was talking about the people he interacted with. You're right, though. He didn't choose the easiest path possible. He could have hooked up with any of those girls, but they didn't interest him. Shinji cared about Asuka and that's undeniable. The problem is that he took the initiative too late and didn't leave when she asked. This is not to say that Asuka's responses to his late advances were perfect. She could have handled the situation better. Anyway, I understand she was tired and frustrated. Also, the circumstances under which this particular conversation took place were dire, to say the least.
Shinji could have phrased his words better and Asuka could have listened to him. Would the end result have been different? I don't know. Probably. At the end of the day, we are talking about immature teenagers who have tried their best to understand themselves and one another. I still believe that Shinji was there mostly for himself. Whether this is "okay" or not depends on Asuka. She also wanted him, after all. That said, she had her reasons for saying "no".
The kitchen scene is important for a number of reasons. It's the climax of Shinji and Asuka's relationship. It's essential that we see their lowest point in order to truly appreciate the last scene of the movie (in which they finally start to accept each other).
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Re: Best Pair: What Eva Characters Do You Ship?

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Postby YTPrenewed » Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:42 pm

Yeah, "greater the issues, greater the catharsis" and all that.

But bear in mind the whole "not taking initiative" thing is because she spent the rest of the series pretending not to be interested in him. He could've gone full Kaji and tried to call her bluff but there's no accepted standard for what kind of evidence for calling her bluff, if any, outweighs her own word.

Besides, she takes charge on missions, so I'm not sure why she couldn't take charge elsewhere.

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Re: Best Pair: What Eva Characters Do You Ship?

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:02 pm

SPOILER: Show
View Original PostBernardoCairo wrote:While looking at Shinji and Asuka's relationship, I think it's impossible to "blame" a single person for what happened. Otherwise, you end up limiting your analysis. There is more to look at than "who is to blame". It's fairly common to see people glossing over Shinji's actions in EOE. Sure, the character was at his lowest point. However, he's still Shinji Ikari. We are not looking at a new person. Ikari's mindset (which is the driving force behind his behavior) didn't come out of nowhere.
Shinji is, by all intents and purposes, a self-centred person. He basically looks at the world through a lock. As Asuka pointed out, Ikari is a dense guy. I mean, he was the last soul to notice that Toji would be Unit 03's pilot. Still, he cares about other people (he saved Soryu at the end of Magmadiver, for example). He just has a hard time looking at things outside of his narrow perspective. After hearing Asuka crying for her mother in episode 9, he immediately brought the situation to himself (commenting on how she is a child). Anyway, this "self-centered nature" greatly shapes his character in EOE.
Throughout the series, Shinji doesn't do much to understand Asuka. That, in itself, is okay. I mean, she sends mixed signals and is a difficult person at times. It's also okay for her to feel hurt by it, though. The "pathetic element" comes later. At his worst, after doing so little, Shinji begs Asuka for help. When she needed him, he wasn't there. Still, he wants her to love and stay with him forever. That's when his egocentric side comes out and leads him to do some horrible things
In this movie, Shinji and Asuka's interactions can be divided into three main sequences. These are the hospital, kitchen and beach scenes. Each of these moments complements the other and it's possible to notice some patterns when analyzing them.
The tone of their relationship is set by the hospital sequence. Frankly, Shinji was in that room for himself and no one else. He begged for Asuka's help, she obviously didn't meet his expectations and he proceeded to use her as an object. He completely disregarded her humanity just to feel worthy of being hated. He hurt her for his own benefit. It's not just about the action itself, but his mindset.
In the kitchen sequence, Shinji approached Asuka by saying that he wanted to "help her". Full of his bullshit, she tells him to leave. Note that she stopped engaging with him after episode 22. He is the one who keeps looking for some kind of dialogue (like that time he thought it was a good idea to tell a sick child that her favorite person had been murdered). Honestly, Asuka seems to want distance from Shinji. Unfortunately, he can't take "no" for an answer and that's when everything falls apart. Shinji was scared and came crawling to her when it was convenient. She finds him pathetic and incapable of loving himself. He cannot accept rejection and retaliate by giving up on her and humanity. Shinji hurt Asuka again.
Don't get me wrong, I feel there was some honesty in his words to her. We know that Shinji cared a lot about Asuka and was attracted to her. However, it was too little too late. He was trying to expand their relationship for every possible selfish reason.
Finally, there's the last scene of the movie. While Shinji is using Asuka's body to confirm his own individuality, he also hurts her (giving sequence to their "cycle of pain"). She could have responded to his actions in a number of ways, but chose to express kindness (stroking his face the same way Yui did). Asuka, who matured a lot during this movie, stopped projecting herself on Shinji and accepted him. Communication doesn't have to be agonizing all the time. Pain exists, but it can be forgiven.
In hindsight, Shinji is not a monster. However, he isn't a saint either. Through the circumstances of EOE, we see the worst side of him. (some of his poorer quirks were exacerbated). Even so, he has many qualities and Asuka herself noticed this on several occasions. I decided to focus on him because people usually only talk about the girls. Of course, Asuka isn't perfect either. That's why I'm a fan of their relationship. It's not cute, but realistic, hopeful and interesting to watch. Remember, I only talked about the movie. There's a lot more to cover in the series.

On the "crackship side", my favorite one is AsuKen. That's because of Angelic Days. Kensuke is so pathetic in this story that it's impossible not to laugh. He keeps trying to reach her again and again, even though it's obviously useless. She doesn't even know how to react. Like, she's not mean to him or anything. She just tries to ignore the whole thing (lol). That sequence outside of Asuka's apartment is so miserable that I truly feel sorry for the guy. Honestly, he's a nice person and seems to care more about her than Shinji (at first). Poor dude. I like him.


You said a lot of nice shit in there brother.
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Re: Best Pair: What Eva Characters Do You Ship?

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Postby Alan_81 » Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:10 am

But I don't understand the argument that the main pilots need to remain cute and recognizable. The whole point of the 14 year time skip in 3.0 is that it thrusts Shinji into an unfamiliar and dark world, and the audience is supposed to feel weirded out and alienated as well. Aging up the pilots so that they look noticeably different would really help with that feeling.


I get this initially plays heavily on the audiences confusion as we are trying to see and understand the world through Shinji’s eyes. The very reason he doesn’t twig straight away is because the people he knows look vaguely the same and he can’t understand their reactions towards him.

Would you really have preferred a 28 year old looking Asuka? And a 43 year old Misato? Never mind guessing Maris real age would have her needing to look at least 60? Lol. Now that would leave me feeling “weirded out” big time.

Anime Characters we grew up with and love should never be allowed to age that much.
Let’s just leave that role to a Harrison Ford playing Han Solo in a wheel chair. There is something special about watching EVA and been transported right back to your youth when you first watched NGE. I was 15 at the time, so it’s maximum nostalgia and escapism for me.

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Re: Best Pair: What Eva Characters Do You Ship?

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Postby Archer » Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:19 am

Honestly, I WOULD prefer a 28 year old Asuka in 3.0. I think her whole character arc is kind of muddled by the fact that she still looks 14 and still acts like she hasn’t matured all that much in 3.0, despite 3.0+1.0 now insisting that (unlike Shinji) she is a grown adult in a child’s body even though IMO this doesn’t really match how she behaves in 3.0. I don’t think Misato needed a significant visual change (insert “Asians don’t visibly age until they turn 60” meme) and could’ve gotten by with a few more lines on her face to show how hellish the last 14 years have been for her. I think Maya is the one who really needed an age-up, because she looks almost identical despite going from her early 20’s to her mid 30’s. Mari on the other hand clearly has had something fucky going on with her since the very beginning, so she actually has a valid reason to stay the same age. Her still being “stuck in the past” (and happy about it) would also give her a bit more of a connection to Shinji.

Going full fanfic mode here:

Like, imagine if instead of Sakura breaking the news to Shinji through the honestly kind of underwhelming revelation that she’s Tohji’s younger sister, Asuka is the one to “inform” Shinji (and the viewers) about the timeskip by straight up just appearing as a full-grown adult who can’t pilot the Eva anymore. Nothing could have sold the timeskip better than that, IMO. This also more or less writes Asuka out of Shinji’s story, leaving Mari to take her place, and Mari in general desperately needed a lot more screen time throughout the series.

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Re: Best Pair: What Eva Characters Do You Ship?

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Postby Retromantique » Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:48 pm

View Original PostZusuchan wrote:orcot:
Also, aren't we supposed to be talking about the TV series here? The manga is basically useless in these kinds of discussions.


I haven't read the manga. Why do you say that? Is it that much less informative? I was hoping I'd find more information about the MAGI system/Akagi Naoko... :'(

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Re: Best Pair: What Eva Characters Do You Ship?

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Postby YTPrenewed » Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:31 am

View Original PostArcher#930755 wrote:Honestly, I WOULD prefer a 28 year old Asuka in 3.0. I think her whole character arc is kind of muddled by the fact that she still looks 14 and still acts like she hasn’t matured all that much in 3.0

Is how angry one is or isn't at him about the near third impact really a matter of "maturity" or lack thereof? All the supposed adults in the remainder of the Rebuild story arc are at least as angry at him, with the possible exception of Rei, who if it's the same Rei (and maybe if she is a different one) is still emotionally repressed, and Sakura, who'd probably heard many nice things about him from her brother, and maybe Misato... actually, even Misato comes pretty damn close (and with her having encouraged him to do what she's angry at him over, she hardly has a leg to stand on, on that front). Or were you referring to something other than the anger?


View Original PostArcher#930755 wrote:I don’t think Misato needed a significant visual change (insert “Asians don’t visibly age until they turn 60” meme) and could’ve gotten by with a few more lines on her face to show how hellish the last 14 years have been for her.

Her threatening to kill Shinji if he did the same thing she used to encourage him to do, and almost exclusively scowling at him in 3.0 instead of the wider variety of facial expressions she previously had in her interactions with him, helped drive home that point clearly enough regardless of her appearance.


View Original PostArcher#930755 wrote:This also more or less writes Asuka out of Shinji’s story, leaving Mari to take her place, and Mari in general desperately needed a lot more screen time throughout the series.

She may be more endearing than Asuka, but of the two main combat-enjoying uber-confident action-girl Eva pilots in the series, Asuka is the one fans of the old show would be more used to seeing than Mari. I think portraying the two facing combat together as squadmates was a nice way to multitask giving NGE fans their fix of their nostalgia for Asuka and giving Mari fans their fix of, well, Mari.

. . .

Speaking of which, as if to come back from our thread-branching full circle, what do you all think of Mari getting with Shinji in 3.0+1.0? I think it's great that they found a character to pair him with sans the age gap / authority gap implications of Misato, the semi-incestuous implications of Rei, and the borderline-abusive aspects of Asuka. I'm not saying he's entitled to a perfect girlfriend or anything like that; or any at all for that matter; but I don't think one should be encouraging those aspects of Shinji/Rei, Shinji/Misato, or Shinji/Asuka, whereas Mari's habit of nicknaming him "doggy" and Asuka "princess", however valid those nicknames may be, still comes across as a flaw, just one more within the bounds of reason than flaws beyond it. I used to hope Shinji and Asuka could make it work, but they have less reason to if her crush on him was eroded by his immaturity, much less if someone with a sweeter and more affectionate personality is into him...

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Re: Best Pair: What Eva Characters Do You Ship?

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Postby jedi_spectre1 » Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:26 am

View Original PostYTPrenewed wrote:getting with Shinji in 3.0+1.0? I think it's great that they found a character to pair him with sans the age gap / authority gap implications of Misato


I think Mari is actually worse than Misato in this front, if it is a romantic relationship between them. Mari is probably in her 60s and literally was there when Shinji was born and was the person that got his parents together. Just thinking of it, to me, is grosser than any of the questionable things with Rei and Asuka.

Since I'm posting here, I ought to post who I ship. I like both Shinji/Rei and Shinji/Asuka, but I won't lie, I do have a preference for Shinji/Rei. The Shinji/Rei relationship in 2.22 and the manga is what made me like it. The end of 2.22 is still one of my favorite moments in the whole franchise. Their relationship in NGE I also like, but I think Shinji/Asuka in the anime is more fleshed out and has a better arc. Though Rei realizing her how much she cares about Shinji only to sacrifice herself for him always hits me in the feels.

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Re: Best Pair: What Eva Characters Do You Ship?

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Postby YTPrenewed » Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:49 pm

View Original Postjedi_spectre1#931420 wrote:
View Original PostYTPrenewed#931362#931420 wrote:getting with Shinji in 3.0+1.0? I think it's great that they found a character to pair him with sans the age gap / authority gap implications of Misato


I think Mari is actually worse than Misato in this front, if it is a romantic relationship between them. Mari is probably in her 60s and literally was there when Shinji was born and was the person that got his parents together. Just thinking of it, to me, is grosser than any of the questionable things with Rei and Asuka.

Since I'm posting here, I ought to post who I ship. I like both Shinji/Rei and Shinji/Asuka, but I won't lie, I do have a preference for Shinji/Rei. The Shinji/Rei relationship in 2.22 and the manga is what made me like it. The end of 2.22 is still one of my favorite moments in the whole franchise. Their relationship in NGE I also like, but I think Shinji/Asuka in the anime is more fleshed out and has a better arc. Though Rei realizing her how much she cares about Shinji only to sacrifice herself for him always hits me in the feels.

No doubt. Each version of the show is a treasure trove of "cuteness + shock value + more emotionally moving than what you typically expect from anime that blend cuteness with shock value." It's what kept me coming back no matter how many cuter and/or more shocking anime are out there.

Is the "Mari is in her 60s" aspect canon or just a fan theory? I certainly don't recall anything in the movies about her having been that much older than Shinji, though I'll admit I wasn't paying attention very closely.

All else held constant, though, "age gap + authority gap" is still worse than just "age gap." Especially when Misato was Shinji's commanding officer, while Mari and Shinji were more comparable in role. It'd be difficult for Misato to prove the relationship itself wasn't a direct order, bringing new meaning to the phrase "get in, Shinji"! He might've saved her career by rejecting her in ep 23. (Also, kudos to Thrice Upon A Time for making Misato's last conversation with Shinji unforgettable without resorting to portraying a kiss or any references to going further. Don't get me wrong, EoE's kiss scene was strangely beautiful in its own way between the colours, the circumstances and the emotions running high... but still not the sort of thing to generally be encouraged...)

My problem with Shinji/Rei is not just the clone of his mother aspect but also how emotionally repressed she is, and how Shinji might feel bad about having difficulty understanding let alone meeting her wants. In Rebuild 3.0 he was even shown being outright frustrated with her over it. With Asuka it's the opposite problem... he's so emotionally frail it's not clear how well he could handle her abrasive-bordering-on-abusive personality. Though incidentally that's also part of the reason that before Mari was introduced I had hoped they'd portray Shinji/Asuka as somehow working out anyway. It'd be such a good microcosm of a redemption theme. Maybe it's for the best they not portray it as working out lest it encourage that sort of thing in real life.

Also, Shinji/Mari is a good way to drive home the point that Shinji/Asuka vs. Shinji/Rei is a false dichotomy. Which should've been even more obvious in the original show given Shinji's fangirls there, but still...


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