Godzilla & Kaiju General!

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Postby Chuckman » Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:52 am

Re: Ghidora

SPOILER: Show
They threw in imagery comparing Ghidora to William Blake’s Great Red Dragon paintings, and you know what? They actually earned it. They made him awesome and terrible.
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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:29 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:Re: Ghidora

SPOILER: Show
They threw in imagery comparing Ghidora to William Blake’s Great Red Dragon paintings, and you know what? They actually earned it. They made him awesome and terrible.


SPOILER: Show
Giving each head a unique personality added a lot. Am I reading into it too much or were they trying to imply that he was the origin of all mythological dragons?

Did you see the MechaGodzilla tease in the credits?


According to Box Office Mojo the movie is performing on the lower end of studio expectations but it was #1coming in just shy of $50 million domestically and roughly 179 million globally. So it's at least made production budget back. I'm worried it's going to struggle since the market is so saturated right now. John Wick 3, Aladdin, Dark Phoenix opens this week, I think...The big one coming down the pipe is Spider-Man. Surely all these big movies are cannibalizing each other.
Someday I hope that we'll be reunited if that is what's destined to be. Perhaps we'll discover that elusive bible. And then we will finally be free!

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:33 pm

This movie is the Mad Max Fury Road of Godzilla movies, and that's a fantastic thing.

I get the complaints critics have with this one, really I do. But I also get watching Godzilla movies. There's a reason why Toho poured money into this franchise, even in the 60's when things were getting sillier, goofier, and more expensive, and that's because there's an inherent, primal, almost carnal desire for these kinds of movies.

I agree with the sentiment that it's kinda like one of the 90's Godzilla movies. It did remind me a lot of a Takao Okawara Godzilla movie within terms of near-flawless visuals and over-the-top fight scenes, but I feel that the human characters were slightly better integrated in this movie than those particular 90's Godzilla movies. So basically, if you're down with a Takao Okawara Godzilla flick, then this movie is paradise for you. It gives you the attention to detail in the spectacular nature of the monsters scenes in this film on a modern scale while also shaping up the human drama to better coexist with the monster battles.

However, if you're expecting the 60’s, Ishiro Honda + Shinichi Sekizawa dream team levels of human drama and sci-fi lore, it doesn't quite match up to that. (And I think that this is what the critics are complaining about.) The comparison to Honda/Sekizawa's Destroy All Monsters is an apt one, for sure, but my unpopular opinion among Godzilla fans is that it was one of the weaker movies by that creative duo anyway. (It's not bad, but I'll gladly take their Mothra vs Godzilla or any of their Ghidorah-focused films over Destroy almost any day of the week.) Both DAM and GKotM19 have wonderfully fantastical and fun sci-fi lore, but lack the finer nuance to the human stories that much of their first chunk of Showa-Era Godzilla movies had before Jun Fukuda was tasked to take on the role as director. (And Fukuda never excelled at human dramas anyway, so...) There's a needless comic-relief character in here played by Bradley Whitford that'll probably be divisive among audiences, (I personally don't mind him, really), but at the same time, how else can one constantly look at the face of ancient gods and still remain sane?

I don't think this movie really MEANS anything either, despite it's explicit and tactless environmental message. It has no depth, nuance, or any further discussion of any kind except for what it says on the tin. (Though there is some neat little reconsideration of the "needs of the many over the needs of the one" mentality before that also gets sidelined entirely.) But environmental awareness is definitely something that the film's late producer (and director of Godzilla vs the Smog Monster) Yoshimitsu Banno felt strongly about, so it's no surprise that this message is in there. (And it's not detrimental to anything either, narratively or in the public discourse. It just doesn't amount to much in the narrative themes either.)

So yeah, I'd definitely recommend this movie. Watch the Hell outta this. I'm gonna watch this at least a few more times in some other choice theaters.

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Postby Chuckman » Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:08 pm

The sheer artlessness of the environmental message is itself an artistic choice. This isn’t a movie for subtlety.
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Statistical fact: Cops will never pull over a man with a huge bong in his car. Why? They fear this man. They know he sees further than they and he will bind them with ancient logics. —Marty Mikalski

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:34 am

I see a lot of other Godzilla fans having mixed feelings on this one as well, and I can see why. One of the weirdest things that struck me about GKOTM19 is how much American culture changes everything about how Godzilla tropes function in the film’s narrative. I’ll do a more spoiler-riddled, in-depth critic on that when I get the chance. But yeah, there were a lot of parts of the film that worked on an emotional level that the more traditional part of my brain kept going “Wait, what’s this about? That’s kinda wrong. A Japanese Godzilla movie would never do this without awful, terrible consequences occurring.”

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Postby Zeta_One » Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:23 pm

If things continue in the direction they're currently heading it looks like Godzilla vs Kong will be the final installment of the Monsterverse. While it might have won the weekend box office, King of the Monsters opened below already low projections in almost every market and is flirting with potential bomb territory. The Rotten Tomatoes critic score has plummeted to 39% with an average rating of 5/10 and it seems like the audience score has been slowly falling as well (going from 90% to 86% over the weekend).

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:According to Box Office Mojo the movie is performing on the lower end of studio expectations but it was #1coming in just shy of $50 million domestically and roughly 179 million globally. So it's at least made production budget back.

It hasn't. Studios only get 50%-60% of the total gross. Also, there isn't a consensus on how much the film cost to produce. Some estimates put it as low as $170 million and as high as $230 million. Which probably doesn't factor in promotion costs either way.
Last edited by Zeta_One on Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Chuckman » Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:33 pm

As long as they go out on a high note, that’s fine. This feels like a trilogy anyway.
the prophecy is true

Statistical fact: Cops will never pull over a man with a huge bong in his car. Why? They fear this man. They know he sees further than they and he will bind them with ancient logics. —Marty Mikalski

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:43 pm

View Original PostZeta_One wrote:It hasn't. Studios only get 50%-60% of the total gross. Also, there isn't a consensus on how much the film cost to produce. Some estimates put it as low as $170 million and as high as $230 million. Which probably doesn't factor in promotion costs either way.

That’s not quite right. For the first month or two, all domestic ticket sales profits go to the studios for most theaters. And worldwide markets have grossed $400 million in the past for other MonsterVerse films, so this shouldn’t be any different.

EDIT: I’ve read from two different sources that the production costs were $200 million, with a $150 million marketing budget. That’s not quite as much as I was expecting, honestly.

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:32 am

View Original PostZeta_One wrote:If things continue in the direction they're currently heading it looks like Godzilla vs Kong will be the final installment of the Monsterverse.

From what I understand, Legendary's deal with Toho expires after Godzilla vs Kong anyway and Toho is set to roll out their own new series starting in 2021. If that's true then it seems like the worst case is the Monsterverse just ends as originally planned without an extension. And frankly if what critics want is more movies like Godzilla 2014, then I'm fine with that. I defended that movie hard after it first came out and I remembered really liking it, but after watching it for the first time in a couple years to get ready for KotM, I found my opinion on it has turned rather sour over time. You have to sit through so much boring human drama to get to the good stuff with multiple fake-out teases, and then when it gets to the good stuff in the final battle it's so damn dark it's hard to see anything. That, at least, I chalk up to issues with the home video transfer because I don't remember it being that dark in theaters. It does have some great scenes though, like Godzilla at the Golden Gate Bridge and the terrifying scene where the soldiers run into the female MUTO on the railroad bridge.

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:^ Exactly. When they first announced a Godzilla anime, I was wondering how they would realize the movement of such a creature in animation. After watching the Godzilla anime, I still wonder how they would realize his movement because Godzilla hardly moves in these movies.

Replying to an older post here, but have you ever seen How to Train Your Dragon 2? There are kaiju-sized dragons called Bewilderbeasts that are really well done.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:59 am

Yes, I’ve seen that movie. They did do a good job with that, but Anime Godzilla isn’t in that same visual style, so it was more difficult for me to imagine what his movement would be like.

Seems as though the same was true for the filmmakers, too.

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Postby Zeta_One » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:00 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:That’s not quite right. For the first month or two, all domestic ticket sales profits go to the studios for most theaters. And worldwide markets have grossed $400 million in the past for other MonsterVerse films, so this shouldn’t be any different.

EDIT: I’ve read from two different sources that the production costs were $200 million, with a $150 million marketing budget. That’s not quite as much as I was expecting, honestly.

According to i09, "studios generally take in around 50-55% of the US box office money." If I'm not mistaken, I recall reading that Legendary/Warner Brothers will only get 25% of the Chinese box office and Toho takes all of Japanese box office. Reaching $400 million or less ($129 million less than Godzilla '14 with a far larger budget) would make King of the Monsters a failure. Some sources even put the budget at $230 million.

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:It did remind me a lot of a Takao Okawara Godzilla movie within terms of near-flawless visuals and over-the-top fight scenes

Are you saying Okawara Godzilla films have near-flawless visuals or over-the-top fight scenes? I'm not even going to ask you to look at Godzilla vs Biollante. Compare Godzilla vs Mothra to Godzilla vs King Ghidorah or the first two Heisei Gamera films.

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:02 pm

It's not looking good for the MonsterVerse from a profitability standpoint, no.
If Godzilla: KOTM does less than the 2.15x multiplier of the 2014 film there's a chance KOTM won't make $100 million in the US. On Monday it took second place at the US box office after Aladdin 2019 which was in its second week. Even if it does do the 2.15x multiplier of the 2014 original it will only make $102 million total. That's probably the low end opening weekend number the studio had in mind when they planned this film as the first "Avengers of the MonsterVerse" all those years ago.

Honestly, in my opinion I just think there isn't an audience for Kaiju films. I mean there is, yes, of course there is BUT not a global audience large enough to sustain giant super-productions of the scale these films have been made at. Godzilla 1998, King Kong 2005, Pacific Rim, Godzilla 2014, Kong: Skull Island, Rampage, and now Godzilla: King of the Monsters - all of these movies have been SUPER sized productions and whether good or bad they've all underperformed their initial expectations and in most cases barely scraped together a profit theatrically. While I love what Legendary is doing letting me see my favorites fight it out on the biggest of screens in realistic glory (I liked King of the Monsters a lot but prefer the 2014 version, this was a very rushed film with far too many elements being juggled and some of those really dragged the film down for me) if they want to continue they're probably going to have to find a way to do these films for much Much MUCH cheaper. A combined $200 million+ production budget AND a $150 million global marketing budget in a genre that has yet to have one film pass $600 million worldwide is a dangerous gambit. If they could find a way to do these films at a $75 million production budget & a $80 million marketing budget they'd be in the clear. I think it's possible. They just have to find the right places where to spend the money and where to not.
For example, Colossal is a small drama that cost $15 million BUT it does contain some sequences of giant monsters duking it out and when they are they look great.

At the moment for the MonsterVerse to continue past the next film I think Godzilla Vs. Kong will have to be one of those "did not see that coming" type super surprises that makes over a cool billion worldwide. Thing is, if they want to do that Warner Brothers may have to move from their March release date already. All the arguments of KOTM underperformed because of tough competition.... well that March 13, 2020 release has the movie sandwiched between Pixar's Onward coming out the week before (which will be heavily sold on starring the voices of the MCU's Star-Lord & Spider-Man!) and the A Quiet Place Sequel the following weekend. By March 27th when Disney's Live Action Mulan remake comes out GvsK will be fighting for screens.
I think they should either push the movie forward a month to mid-February where the competition is Sonic the Hedgehog(lol) and the Kingsman Prequel (not easy competition but doable) OR push it back a month to mid-April cause I just don't think Bond 25 is making that April 8 release date.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:29 am

So, GKotM19 did come out on top in the box office in the first weekend, both domestically in the States and internationally, but with a huge caveat. The weekend as a whole favored GKotM, but day-by-day, Aladdin ended up taking over again by Saturday. This seems to be the usual for Warner Brother, whose movie always seem to be profiting lower than expected. (The LEGO Movies, Shazam, Aquaman, MonsterVerse, etc...) While the augments of Kaiju film not having large American audiences might be true (I mean, America almost created the Kaiju film in 1933, and then you have all of those Ray Harryhausen films made after that, so...?) I also wonder if WB as a whole just needs to reconfigure and figure out how to compete with Disney in a different way. I actually think that the MonsterVerse, as a concept, is the best rival to the MCU. (DC movies are too similar to provide a reasonably different experience, even if done well. Some of the producers of DC were musing that most audiences can't tell the difference between Marvel and DC in the early days of the competition, and banking a movie's success on mistaking properties only works for cheap Roger Corman or Asylum productions.) But WB has to release these films on quieter months of the year in order to stand out from the other big movies. (December might be getting a little crowded by now, so I would suggest Early Fall or something.) Honestly, if there is a trend, it's that WB sucks at making all of the profits these days.

Any-who, here's my more critical thoughts on Godzilla King of the Monsters (2019), and how American styles make things feel weird in Japanese monster properties:

SPOILER: Show
GKotM19 is by far the most fun movie I've watched this year since Alita: Battle Angel. (I mean, Endgame was fun too, I guess, but not as fun for me.) But there were a lot of aspects to its narrative that made the whole thing feel slightly off. I would recognize tropes used in the original 1954/56 film with Dr. Serizawa being reimagined as a new character (san eyepatch and love triangle), and even from 1991's Godzilla vs King Ghidorah, where the Godzilla creature had to be irradiated with a modern Japanese nuclear sub in order to fight King Ghidorah. But in both of those examples, the tropes used sat on the opposite spectrum of the use of nuclear weapons.

In the 2019 film, Dr. Serizawa sacrifices his own life by deploying one of the world's most deadly weapons next to Godzilla. This mirrors the moment inn the 1954 film where Dr. Serizawa did the same thing, but to a different effect. 1954 Serizawa was on a mission to kill the greatest threat known to mankind while also sacrificing himself to assure that no one in the world would ever use his deadly weapon ever again, while 2019 Serizawa was on a mission to sacrifice himself using one of the weapons on Earth to awaken one of the greatest threats known to mankind so that threat could act as a weapon against another monster. (And yes, Godzilla is still seen as a threat in the 2019 film. The movie is nowhere near subtle with its "he's on our side for now" foreshadowing.) This twisting of Dr. Serizawa's goals and beliefs kinda rubs me the wrong way, despite it being so positively emotionally impactful for me when watching it in the theaters. (I'm literally of two different minds about it, but the scene had me sobbing anyway, so overall, I guess it's a win for the film.)

The second part of that is the use of nukes to re-irradiate Godzilla. This was done once before in a Japanese film as well, 1991's Godzilla vs King Ghidorah. (GvKG) But, in the Japanese film, the whole operation is painted with darker undertones. Japan has (in both real life and in this movie's universe) a policy against owning or otherwise using nuclear weapons. (This was established in-universe in Godzilla 1984, AKA "The Return of Godzilla.") In GvKG, it's explain that the Japanese government has been secretly working on a nuclear submarine despite their public policies. While this almost betrays the characters of earlier films claiming to hold to a "No Nukes" policy on their weapons, it also sets up yet another devastating outcome. When Godzilla is successfully re-irradiated in the film, all of his more benevolent qualities are seemingly erased, and, for the first time in the Godzilla franchise, Godzilla becomes a cruel, vengeful god intentionally wreaking havoc on human civilization. (Even in other films where Godzilla was stomping on Tokyo, it was more because he was angry for being woken up, and not because he was being vengeful. In all of the other times, he seems to care little about humans specifically.) This, again, ties back to the main core of the more thematically-minded Godzilla movies of nuclear weapons being always bad all the time. The American 2019 film, again, twists that action in its own narrative towards a different message: Nukes are good when the right people use them.

This was inevitable. Like I said in an earlier post, we saw evidence of this in the Americanized version of Godzilla in 1965, where Dr. Serizawa's motives are changed from no one using cruel bombs to making sure cruel bombs don't fall into the wrong hands. (suggesting that there are good hands in which to place cruel bombs for future use.) But this weird twisting of these Japanese tropes into American usages still rubs me the wrong way (despite cheering like a mad man when Godzilla woke up and started kicking ass again in the film). I'm honestly not sure what to make of it, other than these are indeed American Godzilla films, and the past two have been impactful/fun for me to watch.

But isn't the forbidding of nukes the core aspect of Godzilla, or is the point of Godzilla merely to ease out various culture's fearing about the use of nukes? Does the American series abandoning a darker massage around the nukes also abandon a vital aspect to Godzilla? Or is it merely evidence that it's a Godzilla film made by American filmmakers?

I really don't know myself.

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Postby Chuckman » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:21 pm

I agree on Marvel vs DC. The tone they went with flopped, but really it’s just that Marvel beat them to the punch. DC is going to have difficulty realizing the Fourth World on screen since Marvel brought Thanos (who was a knockoff of Darkseid but evolved into a revered character in his own right) to the screen first.

The charming thing about the Monsterverse is that I don’t know how the stories are going to end when I go in to see one. I can make educated guesses based on Japanese movies I’ve seen and the tropes they contain. From what I’ve read, KotM pulled from Godzilla movies I haven’t even seen. I love Godzilla but my experience of the movies is terribly dubbed Showa era movies on AMC that ran in marathons on Saturdays, seemingly ever other week.

I think the big failings is that, pomposity of critics aside, it’s easier for an audience to get engaged with a main character with personality, portrayed by a charismatic actor. Godzilla doesn’t talk or break up with his girlfriend until the end of the movie or do much of anything a person does.

The critics might ultimately be right about why these movies don’t do as well as the supers. People want to get invested in a human story with relatable characters and familiar actors. A kaiju movie is damned if it does and damned if it doesn’t; if it puts human characters out front there’s not enough smashing and if it’s all smashing there’s not enough human drama for a general audience. If the kaiju are heroes that means the people aren’t and they’re not really relevant. It’s hard to get people invested.

Both of the Monsterverse Godzilla movies tried to have a human co-protagonist and both of them came off as rather silly, just like the idiots shooting at a 600 foot tall space dragon with M-4s.

SPOILER: Show
Outright bringing over the themes from Japanese Godzilla movies (the serious ones, anyway) would never work in an American production for one simple reason:

We are the ones who dropped the bombs. We are the only nation in human history that has used nuclear weapons in anger. It would be totally hypocritical for Americans to lecture the world about the evils of irresponsible use of a terrible weapon.

Now, a director could make a Godzilla movie about the chickens coming home to roost, and paint Godzilla as a force of pure, toxic destruction.

No major studio is going to take that risk, though. Even in the 1998 movie, which is all about a atomic bomb radiated lizard coming to destroy shit in America, the French are blamed for the radiation, not us. A popcorn monster movie is not the place where we will confront sins past.

America can be as blind about our transgressions as the Japanese are about theirs, and it reflects in our pop culture.

Now, that’s doesn’t mean that American movies don’t reach for a broadly similar theme. The radiation stuff in the Monsterverse isn’t about the danger or lack thereof with regards to atomic weaponry, it’s a about how even our most powerful weapon is nothing before the wrath of nature. We’re nothing, just getting in the way while nature does its thing.

I think the easiest place to illustrate this is in the choice to name the Monarch headquarters “castle bravo”, which was the code name for the hydrogen bomb test that destroyed Bikini Atol. Serizawa mentions in ‘14 that the nuclear tests in the pacific weren’t tests, they were failed attempts to kill Godzilla.

That’s illustrative of the theme here. Humans just *have* to meddle where they don’t belong, and it often has unintended consequences (apparently a big dose of rads can juice up Godzilla; makes you wonder if all those failed attempts at murdering him just ended up making him bigger and stronger.

We seek to control things we can to understand and hurt ourselves in the process. That’s the theme: Humanity is better understanding these creatures as gods, not just big animals. Some things are beyond our ken and deserve unmitigated respect and unlimited caution, not a half assed attempt to control it.
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Postby BlueBasilisk » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:01 pm

I've noticed that Japanese Godzilla almost always starts as a heel and then arcs toward an anti-hero in later movies as he fights other monsters. There's always some initial event where Godzilla is hostile towards humanity. In the Heisei and Millennium series he never loses that antagonistic streak. It's really only the second Showa Godzilla that does a face turn and becomes a heroic character.

We've never seen the Monsterverse Godzilla destroy a city or even a village unless he's in pursuit of another monster. We haven't even been told that he did. That falls on the Mutos and Godzilla appears in both Hawaii and San Francisco to fight them. He's already well into "Vs" mode. He clearly doesn't give a shit about the collateral damage his fights cause but he doesn't go out of his way to attack humanity either.
SPOILER: Show
It rings hollow to me when they claim that Godzilla is on their side "for now" in Kingdom of Monsters. When has he ever *not* been? The backstory they reveal about him being worshiped as a god in ancient times, the sweet nest he has in the sunken city, and his role as monster wrangler in the credits all just serve to further emphasize this. He is one of the most human-tolerant Godzilla incarnations. In fact, I think only Zilla Jr and Hanna-Barbera Godzilla have him beat in that regard. Even Showazilla trashed deliberately trashed a few cities.


Curiosity got the better of me and I watched Planet of the Monsters again. Haruo is an insufferable turd of a character in this movie, but it's still somewhat better than the other two, and it's kind of hard to feel that Godzilla's eventual victory over him and the humans in The Planet Eater wasn't deserved. Neither he nor Filius bothered the humans after they came back to Earth, and Godzilla only showed himself after the humans killed his son. Plus if the humans had won then the Bilasiludo and/or the Exif would have eventually destroyed the Earth. Yay Godzilla?
Someday I hope that we'll be reunited if that is what's destined to be. Perhaps we'll discover that elusive bible. And then we will finally be free!

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:53 am

@ Chuckman,
SPOILER: Show
Yeah, I know the Japanese themes will never show up in an American Godzilla movie. It just feels weird to me to have these tropes perform in a reverse manner is all. It's not a complaint, per se (not once did it prevent me from enjoying the movie), it's just an observation. I guess the weirdest part was the use of a character named "Dr. Serizawa." It's almost like having a Braveheart movie where Wallace is pretty cool with the English. (You know, if Braveheart wasn't an attempt at a historical drama or whatever.) If it were any other character, it probably wouldn't feel so weird.

Again, I'm not saying "Thing bad, movie sucks," or even "Thing bad, I'm mad." It's more like "Thing exists, and it made me feel. little weird despite my enjoyment of the film."


@ BlueBasilisk,
SPOILER: Show
I always took the "Godzilla's on our side for now" part as more foreshadowing than anything else. These people already saw how these monsters in general can turn on humans very quickly, and how presumably helpless they can be to them. The film as a whole still creates an environment where humans can still probably kill Godzilla without human sacrifice (which would be an unusual first in the series), what with the whole Oxygen Destroyer almost killing Godzilla. The franchise as a whole seems to be keeping that "humans can still kill Godzilla if they really wanted to" in its back pocket as a way to potentially end the series, and only time will tell if that's a fitting way to conclude something like Godzilla.


I do need to see the anime Godzilla movies again, not because they're good, but because they are bad. I really need to sit down and analyze exactly what about the narrative doesn't work and how it all falls flat at the end.

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Re: Godzilla & Kaiju General!

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:07 pm

Film dropped 67.5% attendance in week two, just a fraction more than the 67% drop the 2014 film had in its second week. The movie is at $78 million domestically and if lucky it will narrowly cross $100 million in the US. Add in the sub $50 million made internationally over the weekend and the fact Spain is the only major market left for the film to open in and its questionable if Godzilla: King of the Monsters will make $400 million worldwide. Take out what the film made in Japan (that all goes to Toho) and the movie won’t be recovering the production and marketing cost from the theatrical market.
Also, Toby Emmerich of Warner Brothers also dropped a hint during a recent PGA conference that Godzilla vs. Kong might come out later in 2020 so they can “deliver an A+ movie”. He didn’t specify when or even if it’s official. Just that it “might move”.

Personally, I’d be okay with a Cinematic Universe just being 4 movies if they end Godzilla vs. Kong on a sense of finality.

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Re: Godzilla & Kaiju General!

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:59 pm

Yeah, the whole “Cinematic Universe” is really all just lightning in a bottle captures by Marvel. I honestly expect the MCU to also diminish in returns relatively shortly. (Unless Disney can keep costs down.) Not everything can be 10+ movies of connective tissue. Everything from the DCEU to the MonsterVerse (to especially the Dark Universe) proves that point. Marvel was the exception, not the rule. At most these things can only go on for 3 - 4 movies before petering out of the public interest.

Honestly, even Toho can’t go 5 movies without having to restructure their business model due to dropping ticket sales. Even the original run of Godzilla movies consistently got cheaper only 6 movies in, and they made sure that they got to about 15 films on excessively slashed budgets. (By the 70’s most Godzilla movies were nothing more than toy commercials anyway, with Godzilla toy merchandise even making appearances in a couple of the movies.)

The fact that Marvel succeeded is the weird part, and I don’t think there’s a real trick to keeping audience interest for that long. Not even the connected universe is a good explanation. It’s like asking a 100+ year old person how they lived to be that old, and they answered “By drinking Dr. Pepper.” That’s not how this works, and the real answer is that it’s more of an anomaly than it is a ridged science.

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Re: Godzilla & Kaiju General!

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Postby Chuckman » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:51 pm

Word is that Marvel is already planning not to do any more 10 year epics and do shorter film arcs. The test is going to be if people start to fatigue out now that a big star is gone from the franchise and the Thanos thing has finally played out and there's no "suspense" to it all.

I don't think anybody else is going to get a CU going either. If they want to do that, the owners of all this IP would be better off focusing on prestige television. More frequently releases in a format that's expected to run long and take time to deliver the goods, plotwise.
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Re: Godzilla & Kaiju General!

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:11 pm

The future for Marvel is really going to be the synergy & cross pollination of the theatrical movies with the many Many MANY series they're going to be putting out on the Disney+ streaming service. The plan is that in a few years to fully understand what is going on in Big Marvel release of May 2023 you'll have to have spent 20 hours on the Disney+ watching the most recent series. They're gonna say otherwise in public - I.E. "You don't have to seen all three seasons of The Adventures of The Falcon & The Winter Soldier to enjoy the first The New Captain America movie" - but really you will have to watch those to really get what is going on. Marvel probably won't have any future 10 year epics planned cause by constantly providing people with interconnected movies & TV series they can tell equally sized (runtime wise at least) Infinity War-esque epic every two to three years. It MIGHT backfire on Disney but I'm more inclined to believe with the continued transformation of all pop culture into a few monoliths that Marvel will be fine for a loooooooong time.

With the announcement that in between chapters of his planned two-film DUNE adaptation Denis Villeneuve is going to direct the pilot to DUNE: The Sisterhood, a streaming service for WarnerMedia's upcoming Disney+/Apple+/Netflix/Hulu like streaming service I guess WB is ready to dive all in to a new NEW Cinematic Universe. I love DUNE - LOVE! IN ALL CAPITALS - but I think the success of a super-expensive & accurate DUNE universe is even slimmer than a continued MonsterVerse. That first book is incredible & can work as a crowdpleaser but the sequel novels (which I for the most part love or enjoy) intentionally take the story in places that large portions of people looking for straight up entertainment will not appreciate. Even if Warner Brothers is lucky to have a success making great films & TV shows covering the first three books how in the hell would they adapt the talky God Emperor of Dune for a mainstream audience?

Either way, with Warner Brothers juggling The Conjuring Universe, the Wizarding World Universe (if it can survive this Fantastic Beasts/Johnny Depp debacle the plan I've heard is to dive back to the original idea of making various solo adventures with original adventures around the globe in the Harry Potter universe before they cash in the easy win of a "bring the entire original cast back for a Harry Potter & the Cursed Child film"), the DC universe and now this potential DUNE universe I don't see them making much if any room for an overly-expensive/drastically underperforming MonsterVerse.

*It's kinda crazy to think that investment wise Warner Brothers most successful cinematic universe is [i]The Conjuring Universe[/i]. I've only seen the two James Wan directed Conjuring movies - greatly enjoyed them for what they were - but the six released films so far have a combined budget of $112 million and have pulled in almost $1.7 BILLION. That's a strong return on investment.


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