Gendo's End in EoE

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Sykes III
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Gendo's End in EoE

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Postby Sykes III » Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:02 pm

Hi, everyone. This is my first post here. I have not been properly "initiated", "hazed", "vetted", etc. I have, however, been reading this board and the Wiki and the FGC for years and always come back to it to reference whenever I rewatch the show. I guess that makes me a "long time lurker, first time poster."

All of which is to say, if this has been answered or is obvious, forgive me.

How does Gendo die in EoE?

I mean, what we see visually is Shogouki grabs him, and chomps his top half off. But how much of what you see visually in EoE, especially during the "Komm, susser Todd" sequence, be interpreted literally?

Which is to say, Sho isn't in the GeoFront at that point, she's out in space in the tree of life submerged into GNK and Shinji along for the ride. So it can't be Sho eating Gendo.

Now, if we look at the context of the sequence, this is when Quantum Rei, the godlike mergence of Rei/Kaworu/Adam/Lillith who can appear in all places at all times in all forms to all peoples, is going around *basically* being a psychopomp to people before they are "raptured" (in tradition of NGE I am going to use this meaningless religious reference to get this idea across) into Instrumentality. This has all been said before but it bears repeating -- She appears to Hyuga as Misato, to Maya as Ritsuko, to Fuyutski as Yui, and to poor Aoba as just horrifying terror because he had the poor misfortune of never being developed enough as a character to have a crush.

Then we have Gendo. And She appears to Gendo first as Yui. Many times watching this movie I thought this was, in some way, actually Yui -- in the same way that Yui appears to Shinji in Instrumentality later, but I don't think that can be the case because Yui's soul is in Shogouki still at this point and Instrumentality hasn't begun yet. That said, Shinji's in Pre-3I at the moment because he's submerged into GNK and so perhaps Sho is in Pre-3I too along with Misato (raptured by Quantum Rei before the explosion), Ritsuko, and Asuka? And if Sho is merged into GNK as part of this overture to Instrumentality, then perhaps the Yui that appears to Gendo is more genuine than just a "face" being worn by Rei similar to the other Rei psychopomps?

Heck, maybe *that's* the real reason Aoba doesn't get anyone special. Misato, Ritsuko, and Yui, the three beings we see Rei appear as to people, are all already joined with her in Instrumentality?

Anyways, back to Gendo. Rei appears to Gendo as Yui and whether this is some form of the real Yui or just another psychopomp is up for debate I suppose. She also appears as herself and as Kaworu. And then there's that cut and it's Shogouki holding Gendo and chomping down.

We see Gendo's bloody remains. We *don't* see a little red dot fly away like we do for, say, Chairman Kiel. So the evidence in front of us says that Shogouki (who we normally associate with Yui) killed Gendo, and he was not raptured into Instrumentality like everyone else.

Except, again, Sho isn't here. She's up in space. Quantum Rei can be in all this places and appear to all these peoples, but in her role as psychopomp did anyone else get the impression she has physical reality? Like, how does a *vision* of Shogouki eat Gendo? And is it really Sho, or just Rei appearing as Sho? How is Gendo killed by something that isn't physically there?

I'm tempted to think that I'm wrong, that Gendo is brought into Instrumentality, but the movie makes this scene so much different to the raptures that appear directly before it. It's violent and Gendo views it as his punishment, whereas if he was raptured he would be with Yui, which was his goal.

We already know that Rei has rejected Gendo in favour of Shinji. So it makes sense for Rei to punish Gendo, but for Yui? If Yui/Sho is indeed merged into Rei as part of Pre-3I at this point, would Yui really kill Gendo in this manner? Or is this vision of Shogouki meant to simply be Rei appearing as Sho to take out her revenge on Gendo?

And again, how can a non-literal Sho, a vision, eat Gendo? Or is Quantum Rei so powerful that when she appears as these people she's taken into herself, she can literally be them in physical space?

And finally, aside from all these lore/physics/plot arguments, which as always in NGE are interesting but also somewhat irrelevant -- I have a bigger question, that all this leads to.

So, everyone got to be in Instrumentality, EXCEPT Gendo, then? Despite dying before Instrumentality starts Misato, Ritsuko, and Asuka are in there, as evidenced by their presence in Pre-3I but also by the appearance of Quantum Rei right before the explostion and that Ritsuko has already become LCL before Instrumentality proper begins. So Quantum Rei can go back in time and bring people into Instrumentality. So everyone gets raptured. Even Kiel! Chairman Kiel, he of the slow cyborg death, gets exactly the outcome he wanted (more or less) even though Seele are definitely the fucking villains of NGE. Ultimately it's only Shinji's rejection of Instrumentality that stop's Seele, and even then it's implied that Kiel and everyone else can stay LCL and joined if they want!

Now, Gendo, definitely, a shitty guy. He'll stop at nothing to achieve his goals, sacrifice everything. He's a shitty guy, a shitty commander, a shitty father for sure. But he did it all for the love of Yui. All he wanted was to be with her again. Surely that's worth more than Kiel's desire to simply be immortal and unshackled by physical form, in a kind of eternal living death?

So why is it that Gendo's the one who's denied Instrumentality and gets killed instead of tanged?

Is it all just Rei? Is it all just the fact that Rei's the one in charge at the end of the day and Rei has rejected Gendo?

Or am I interpreting the scene wrong? Does everyone who die go into Instrumentality? Is this scene just Gendo's equivalent of what we see in the command center?

What does Gendo's death scene in EoE mean? How does it work, what's happening, who's doing what to whom, why is it occurring, and what does it say about the overall story? Is Gendo the true "villain" of NGE then, that he gets this comeuppance and not Kiel? And "who", if the word has any meaning at this point in the story, "kills" Gendo -- Rei, Yui, Sho?

Again, apologies for skipping any fun chit-chat initiation and introducing myself solely with a giant post of questions about one particular scene in a twenty year old movie that everyone is probably sick of discussing in favour of Rebuild discussion or what have you.

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Re: Gendo's End in EoE

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:37 pm

First of all, I'm not sure it's fair to say that Gendo loved Yui based on what's presented in NGE. It's more like he has a desperate, obsessive infatuation with her that, even if he does deserve love, is ultimately selfish. Even more selfishly, he compulsively uses any means to reunite out of his desperate need to be around her to function properly on a mental level. He never takes responsibility for what he's done, justifying anything to be reunited with her, not caring a bit about what she wants or needs as a person. It would seem obvious that she wanted him to take care of Shinji--to be a good father. If he truly loved her, he would've honored that wish, at the very least. I think part of his inclusion as a character was meant to drive home this point, if nothing else. From the beginning people thought he cozied up to Yui to get close to Seele and other self intentions. While not being inclusive enough (it was to get to Seele, but that wasn't all), they weren't entirely wrong. It wasn't out of genuine love and because he cared for her as an individual. It's possible he loved her on some level, but it wasn't strong enough to overcome his obsessive infatuation with her.

In any case, I believe what people saw during the "rapture" before getting tanged was a reflection of their inner most desires before dying, which in a way can be sort of a monkey's paw. Gendo, feeling guilty about his actions and behavior may have secretly wished to be punished for what he did. He did actually wind up seeing Yui too, which would be in line with that reasoning. When I say desire, I don't necessarily mean what someone really really wants so much as what they believe they deserve. Based on the content of their hearts and minds, they all wished to join with others to fill the voids of their hearts and escape the anxiety and terror of having something missing (as a result of being separate beings). The way they joined together didn't necessarily have to happen the way they thought they wanted, but most were comforted by their last visions because they were generally good people. Aoba may not have been a good person or felt he wasn't, which is why he was scared when all the Reis piled up around him, but he stilled joined together. Gendo, assuming he really wasn't part of Instrumentality (which isn't unfair to assume since we never see him again, but he does show up in the manga's version even though it's a bit of a different canon, just something to think about), may have ultimately felt he didn't deserve to become one with everybody, and the arbiter's were the people he felt were most qualified to judge (the thing of his obsession, Yui, and two god-like beings, Rei and Kaworu). That's the way I interpret things anyway.

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Re: Gendo's End in EoE

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Postby Sykes III » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:52 pm

I think that's a good analysis.

I've always felt Gendo got with Yui at first to get closer to Seele (in my head I always want to fan canon Kiel into Yui's dad but that's impossible), and then as they grew close and dated it turned into a real bond.

I do agree that his love for her was "immature". That he was obsessed with her, that he desired her, that because she indeed cared for him and saw something in him that other's did not see that he felt better with her than without her. That when he lost her he became obsessed with being with her again. It's not a proper, mature, healthy "love" but it's not *quite* the same I think as possessiveness or infatuation. She fulfilled a need in him.

But you're right, he didn't ultimately reciprocate properly because of his own inner Shinji-ness (or chronologically, Shinji's inner Gendo-ness), and of course Yui chose Shinji over him. He couldn't bear to be apart from her to such a degree that he would sacrifice anything to get her back, while she was totally fine with diving into Shogouki for the sake of the future. So yeah, not saying Gendo's a great role model of a loving husband or anything, lol.

I think you're probably on the money that Gendo, ultimately, realizes he deserves punishment at the end of the day, and that Yui/Rei/Sho decides to dole it out accordingly. I'm just unsure on whether he got to join Instrumentality or whether Rei kept him out. Because how is it punishment if he gets what he's been working for this whole time?

I agree on the monkey's paw thing. Everyone gets what they wanted, just not the way they wanted.

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Re: Gendo's End in EoE

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Postby cody727kirby » Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:17 pm

View Original PostSykes III wrote:I've always felt Gendo got with Yui at first to get closer to Seele (in my head I always want to fan canon Kiel into Yui's dad but that's impossible)

Both of these points are reasonable theories, given these bits from the Classified Information:

Gendo Ikari:
C. Confidential Information
Married Yui Ikari, who has connections with Seele, so that he could become a member himself.

Yui Ikari:
D. In-Depth Information
Yui is the daughter of an influential member of Seele, and, accordingly, was in the position of being able to understand their plans. Knowing this, Gendo became acquainted with her.

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Postby Sykes III » Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:11 pm

I just always felt like it would explain why Kiel was willing to put up with Gendo's shit, but the names and nationalities don't match up -- unless Kiel was her grandfather as opposed to father, which I guess fits the ages better... *fanwank fanwank*

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Re: Gendo's End in EoE

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Thu Nov 03, 2016 6:09 pm

I agree with your comments about Gendo's love for Yui, especially in that she fulfilled a need of his. Ultimately our only disagreements boil down to how we define love, or how neither of us is explaining it in just the right way for the other to understand what our intended meanings are. I'm not suggesting he is trying to own her in the way a psychopath would. For that matter, I don't even consider Gendo a psychopath/sociopath/anti-social personality disorder sufferer. Sure, he might exhibit some rather sociopathic tendencies, but in the end he's no more than a broken man. He certainly is manipulative, controlling, and callous to be sure; however, he is capable of empathy and remorse, but likely represses or suppresses both. It's easy to think of somebody who makes a habit of doing what Gendo does as a psychopath because of misunderstandings about what makes one a psychopath, and because we want to justify and rationalize our opinions of him and other such people.

For instance, Shinji would likely turn out like Gendo without something seriously altering his perspective on people and life, but you wouldn't describe somebody like Shinji as a psychopath, even if he were to become more like Gendo in real life. Anyway, back on the topic of Yui and Gendo. He didn't mean to possess her any more than somebody who's got a ridiculous crush on someone else, who claims they truly love them without even knowing them much. It's obviously not love, it's an infatuation; if they're in love with anything, it's their idea of who that person is, and not that person. It doesn't make them a bad person for thinking they're in love and trying to get together with that person, it just means they're confused about what love really is. It's possible to actually love somebody on some level, but still be so infatuated with them that it turns from love into an obsession. It takes a very nuanced view of these ideas to really classify how much Gendo loved Yui, and how much he wanted what she had to offer him. Again, the thing he so desperately wanted from her isn't wrong to seek, it's just wrong when your methods include going against said person's will and at great expense to others. The desire itself is only as bad as what it causes the person to do. Even if we really were to say he truly loved her, the things he did to reunite with her were deplorable (which I'm sure we can agree on). The purpose of pointing out it isn't quite love is to help get the idea across that it doesn't respect what Yui wants.

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Postby Sykes III » Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:27 pm

I think I would absolutely agree with your analysis, and I do think it just comes down to defining how we're using the word "love". When I think of the word "infatuation", the connotation I arrive at is a one-way street, and I think it's clear that Yui did care for Gendo in return, that she saw a side of him others didn't, she says as much to Fuyutski. Ultimately however she chose Shinji over Gendo, and had her own life and agenda, whereas Gendo definitely didn't so much care about what Yui wanted so much as what he wanted of Yui. That said, while we know that post-2004 that Gendo, Yui, and Seele all had different plans for Third Impact, and that pre-2004 Yui and Seele's plans were not the same, and that pre-2000 Gendo and Seele's plans were, it's difficult to say how aware of Yui's plans Gendo was and how much he agreed with them. I guess the lake flashback with Fuyutski implies that Yui only shared her agenda with him, which would mean that indeed Gendo never knew or cared about what Yui wanted.

So by your definition of love and infatuation, I would totally agree with your assessment of Gendo. For whatever reason my mind reacted to the word "infatuation" as implying that Yui didn't care for Gendo, when I think it's clear there was something there between them, for however short a time.

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Re: Gendo's End in EoE

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Postby Director Black » Fri Nov 04, 2016 7:58 pm

Gendo's death in EoE was the final nail in his character development.

To me, the Eva that bit Gendo's head was a symbol of Yui rejecting him. As Gendo said: he's waited so long to be reunited with Yui...only to be faced with death. He accepts that this is his retribution, because he's realized how awful he's been; not just to Shinji, but to anyone who got in his way. To him, the Eva was the giant beacon of hope that promised him light, so it only makes sense (In a tragically ironic way) that he dies in the hands of that beacon of hope.
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Re: Gendo's End in EoE

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Postby Reichu » Sat Nov 05, 2016 4:53 am

@ the OP, I think you're contradicting yourself when you claim that Eva-01 can't be the one eating Gendo, while also admitting to Rei/Lilith's powers of multi-location. Eva/Yui and Adam/Kaworu are joined with Lilith at this time, so why is it so hard to believe that they, too, would be able to bilocate? By all indications, Gendo's upper torso was violently removed from his body, meaning something (or, rather, someone) actually did NOT ONLY bite him in half, but also spirit the upper half away.

Not seeing Gendo's soul float away doesn't mean anything, since Kiel is actually the only character whose soul is depicted as a red dot in the first place. (Are you seriously going to argue that Kiel is the only character who made it into HIP?) Interestingly, though, when the three versions of Rei are standing together after Gendo's death, Rei 3's hands are cupped around something we cannot see. Gendo's soul, perhaps...?

Gendo being "rejected" from HIP is a common interpretation, but it's by no means the only one that's possible. If the sole purpose of the exercise was to reject him, it seems needlessly elaborate and convoluted to me. Why have him get eaten by Eva-01? The Eva is channeling her episode 19 depiction there, wherein eating was, far from a method of rejection, used as a means of assimilation -- specifically, a way to absorb something (Zeruel's S2 Engine) into her core. So, one could reasonably think that, despite being punished with a violent death (one he probably thinks he deserves anyway), Gendo is ultimately getting what he wants here (reunion with Yui in Eva-01's core). Of all the ways Gendo could have gotten killed by a real or imagined Eva-01, being eaten is a uniquely intimate method.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby Sykes III » Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:28 pm

I hadn't considered the eating correlation with Episode 19. That's a very good point.

You're probably right that I may have contradicted myself somewhere in my thought process. One thing I've noticed about Eva is that things seem contradictory when I am in the process of watching them, but if I sit down and "talk out" what I've seen, it gives the contradictions a chance to resolve themselves because some how once I'm removed from watching and can reason it out, it usually works out.

Thanks everyone for the responses, it's really helped my analysis of this scene. I think that since Sho/Yui are merged with GNK in Pre-3I Instrumentality, that does explain how Yui and Sho can appear as psychopomps (transition guides) to Gendo, and that his "death" scene is more or less equivalent to everyone else's in the format of "psychopomp appears, person's 'greatest desire' is fulfilled, and they are 'raptured'", just in Gendo's case it's like an irony bomb in terms of "seeing Yui again" and "becoming one with Yui" in that Shogouki eats him, which yes, implies he's been merged into Instrumentality like everyone else, since it's indiscriminate. He just gets a painful, violent transition because that's what he thinks, deep down, he deserves.

I think the other reason I didn't think Gendo was in Instrumentality is we never hear his voice in Shinji's Instrumentality like we do with other characters, but then again we know for a fact that Chairman Kiel, Fuyutski, and the bridge bunnies are in there and we don't hear them either. And we *do* hear all of the above, Gendo included, in EoTV's depiction of Shinji's Instrumentality, so there's also that.

Cool. Thank you everyone for you help clearing my thoughts on this one!


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