EoTV/EoE Concurrency and Gainax

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EoTV/EoE Concurrency and Gainax

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:13 pm

Yes, this is a long post; sorry! ^_^;
And if my "still-a-nOOb to Eva" is shining through, please enlighten me!

There seems to be division between fans:
Those thinking EoTV is NOT concurrent with EoE and Shinji accepts Insturmenality in the former while rejecting it in the latter (Such as EvaOtaku).
Others, however, seems to think that EoTV and EoE ARE concurrent (Such as MDWigs, and this is the category I personally fall into) due to similar lines, situtations, overall tone of both (ie: "When you think of it that way, the real world isn't so bad."~Misato, 26. "I want to see them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."~ Shinji, 26'. )

My main question is, just what did Anno-sensei and Gainax intend?

Maybe it's not that big of a deal to know, as Eva is a show "we all have to find our answers" (Sayth the Anno) to, but curistoery's getting the better of me! ^^;
For instance, in the Refrain of Evangelion booklet, whoever did the commentary (Sadamoto???) wrote: "If you watch AIR and SINCERELY YOURS along with the last two episodes from the TV series, you'll realize their stories have common story lines although their expression methods are different from each other."
Also, under the info for Good, or Don't Be (hmm...where have I heard that title before? ^_~) it says: "The TV Series ended with the impact (Me: No pun intended?) of destorying a stereotype that in an anime's final episode everything has to be settled." (Guess that's what we have EoE for!)

According to people like EvaOtaku, though, there was a sense of giving up as the series came to a close, espeically as deadlines had to be met, the series was basically written as the show progressed, etc.

Hmm. Either way, I don't think EoE was made by Anno-sensei for "revenge" purposes as not only do you see Misato and Ritsuko's death and Instrumenality (or rejection thereof) in both, but according to information from the orginal series storyline ideas (I think Shin Seiki (is he a member here? I'd like to chat with him, he seems cool! /fangirlishness) posted that on an Anime Nation forum theard that I stumbled across on one of my searches to understand WTF Eva's all about better) in episode 25(?) "the Organzation" (NERV) gets attacked and Shinji needs to come to a decision about something. (Oh gee, wonder what THAT's a reference to? :roll:)

But yeah, I personally think that what essitenally became EoE was always planned, and that EoTV DID tell the same story, just thru the minds of the characters as opposed to the physical. Some of the physcial's was freaky shit, but.. O_O (*cough* Asuka's death, *cough* Lilith-Rei going to help (or is that freak out?) Shinji just before Pre-Insturmenality begins) *evil grin* "AHHH! There's a giant naked white woman in front of me! And it's Rei who I'm currently afraid of! *whimper* Save me, mama! " Yui-sama: "Oh, just shut up and be a man already!")

Yes, I rambled in this post, sorry; I tend to do that when talking about things I love. *ducks getting rotten fruit thrown at her*
Anyway, any thoughts for or against with what GAINAX/Anno-sensei intended?

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Postby Ornette » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:44 pm

Don't know if you've seen this before:
http://www.angelfire.com/anime4/mdwigs/endings.html

Wasn't the D&R, EoE, and the NPC episodes already in the planning while the end of the series was in production? I read that somewhere but cannot confirm.

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Re: EoTV/EoE Concurrency and Gainax

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Postby The Eva Monkey » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:55 pm

Sailor Star Dust wrote:My main question is, just what did Anno-sensei and Gainax intend?

If there was a statement of that sort, I wouldn't be so certain that they weren't concurrent.

Ornette wrote:Wasn't the D&R, EoE, and the NPC episodes already in the planning while the end of the series was in production? I read that somewhere but cannot confirm.

The theatrical program was formally announced two weeks after the series concluded, which can lead you to assume that it didn't just come up in those two weeks. The full scope is unclear, for instance, did they intend to make the NPC/DC episodes from the start?

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:13 pm

I personally assume the NPC/DC episodes WERE planned from the start, but that's my own belief and I have no evidance to back that up eitherway. :?

One thing I probably forgot to mention, but as I see EoE being physical/the real world, I think 25 and 26 were more or less in Shinji's mind (and the minds of everyone else as Pre-Instrumenality is in progress (ie: "This is the me in Asuka. " "Then, this is the me within Shinji.") (I guess Instrumenality itself didn't happen, as Shinji rejects it BEFORE anything occurs...right?) ), hence why everyone congratulates him at the end of 26 for making his decision to stay as himself; it's meant to be symbolic that it's from the people he loves/who love him. *shrug*
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Postby Shin-seiki » Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:40 pm

Sailor Star Dust wrote: (I guess Instrumenality itself didn't happen, as Shinji rejects it BEFORE anything occurs...right?)
It's all concurrent, including Instrumentality, except that 'I need you' takes place after anything we see in EoTV. Have you noticed this concurrency, for example?
(copy-paste from this old thread)
Shin-seiki wrote:There is a key moment where Ep26' is exactly concurrent with Ep26, and you can compare the visual depiction of Instrumentality in EoE and the TV ending side by side:
Image Image Image

Image Image

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Postby The Eva Monkey » Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:51 pm

I'm I wrong to view it as wrong to tell people that the ends are concurrent without letting people decide for themselves. You can't prove either way. You can make a case for either, but you can't prove it either way. So why tell people that one way of looking at it is correct?

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Postby Reichu » Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:35 am

monkey wrote:I'm I wrong to view it as wrong

lol typo

There is a lot of overlap, and it makes for hours and hours of fun. "See what you can spot in both EoTV and EoE!!!" The endings are not directly equivalent, natch, but there are enough points of "alignment" that some kind of "enemy action" is taking place. And the endings compliment one another, too; that would be hard to accomplish if they were irreconcilably different.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:00 am

References to events that only make sense if something like EoE is already unfolding in the physical world are laced throughout the episode 25 we did eventually see:

Image
6m12s : EVA-02 in the lake

Image
6m21s : Asuka feels useless at the controls

Image
10m38s : Ritsuko in the LCL

Image
10m43s : Misato KIA
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Postby Reichu » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:14 am

Suggestion @ Mr. Tines: Don't post screencaps at full size unless the high res is needed to show details. 50% would do fine.
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Postby The Eva Monkey » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:00 am

Reichu wrote:
monkey wrote:I'm I wrong to view it as wrong

lol typo

Gimme a break. It's midterms. A few hours earlier I had just gotten out of an 18 page, two and a half hour long film history midterm. :cry:

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Re: EoTV/EoE Concurrency and Gainax

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:18 pm

The Eva Monkey wrote:The full scope is unclear, for instance, did they intend to make the NPC/DC episodes from the start?

I'd wager not. I think it's more likely that the director, having been given the chance, decided to go back and polish up, as well as make additions to the last few episodes that suffered most heavily from production burnout. The fact that only the last four episodes were ammended leads me to feel that they weren't a retconned rewrite, but rather a "Director's Cut" in the true sense of the word. A version where the director's full vision was presented rather than the originally aired, which was subject to more pragmatic concerns.
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Re: EoTV/EoE Concurrency and Gainax

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Postby Ornette » Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:38 pm

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:
The Eva Monkey wrote:The full scope is unclear, for instance, did they intend to make the NPC/DC episodes from the start?

I'd wager not. I think it's more likely that the director, having been given the chance, decided to go back and polish up, as well as make additions to the last few episodes that suffered most heavily from production burnout. The fact that only the last four episodes were ammended leads me to feel that they weren't a retconned rewrite, but rather a "Director's Cut" in the true sense of the word. A version where the director's full vision was presented rather than the originally aired, which was subject to more pragmatic concerns.

That's the impression that I got. Perhaps at some point during the production of these last few episodes the team decided to redo them and release 2 movies under different funding/sponsorship. Once the funding for the new project was secured, they announced it.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:34 pm

The Eva Monkey wrote:I'm I wrong to view it as wrong to tell people that the ends are concurrent without letting people decide for themselves. You can't prove either way. You can make a case for either, but you can't prove it either way. So why tell people that one way of looking at it is correct?


So I guess we should assume it's the same case in terms of Gainax? They made EoTV and EoE the way they did to let you as the viewer decide what the hell's going on after all?

Shin-seiki wrote:It's all concurrent, including Instrumentality, except that 'I need you' takes place after anything we see in EoTV. Have you noticed this concurrency, for example? (copy-paste from this old thread)


Thanks for pointing those scenes out, and yes I did notice some of the similatrites before.

(The stirking one that wasn't mentioned yet would be "Don't leave me alone, don't abadon me, don't kill me!" said in 25(?) by Shinji, Misato and Asuka while said in 26' by Shinji.) This is gonna sound very fangirlish right now, but I gotta say I've read some of your postings on Animenation forums and I love your theories...for...things! (By the way, are you a Shinji/Asuka fan, at least in terms of the narrative bringing them together? Eitherway, I think we'd get along just fine because you seem cool and know your Eva! :wink: )

Image

Image

This fan translation sucks, as if you listen to 25? 26?? and 26' in Japanese, the characters are saying the EXACT SAME THING.

I'd post up the screenies that go along with this scene from 26 (or is that 25??), but, uh, they "ain't" up on Youtube no more! :(

Anyway, I read the rest of that theard to see if there was any more enlightement (besides Reichu pointing out the Japanese dialouge in 26 and 26' of Rei and Misato telling Shinji he can run away if he wants to, no, there wasn't much else that was helpful) and JEEZ, that Fuzzy Chickens guy's posts are annoying; it's a good thing he was banned! :roll:


By the way, this is a cool fan project a someone's doing, trying to put episodes 25 and 26 together with EoE. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB7iUb3kq80 He said that he'll probably feature the link off of Youtube (and that it might be using the dub instead of the sub) , because it's copyrighted despite it being done in a creative way. :roll: (I'm guessing that Kanon Dur D rap/remix used in this trailer is from that VOX CD??)
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:40 pm

Sailor Star Dust wrote:By the way, this is a cool fan project a someone's doing, trying to put episodes 25 and 26 together with EoE. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB7iUb3kq80 He said that he'll probably feature the link off of Youtube (and that it might be using the dub instead of the sub) , because it's copyrighted despite it being done in a creative way. :roll: (I'm guessing that Kanon Dur D rap/remix used in this trailer is from that VOX CD??)

I thought of doing that once with the copies I have. Then I realised it would be both an impossible and unreasonable project. These are two completely different productions, both in their presentation and contact. I'd just be a mess.
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Re: EoTV/EoE Concurrency and Gainax

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Postby The Eva Monkey » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:50 pm

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:
The Eva Monkey wrote:The full scope is unclear, for instance, did they intend to make the NPC/DC episodes from the start?

I'd wager not.

So you're saying then that Anno and Gainax right of the bat knew they were going to make D&R, EoE, and the NPC episodes. I think not. Creative production is usually outwardly expanding. Logically, they begin with the part that suffered most (EoTV), and then expanded the scope of their desires to include episodes 21-24. I think it would be naive to assume that the full scope of the production was decided with that sort of immediacy.

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:27 pm

The Eva Monkey wrote:
ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:
The Eva Monkey wrote:The full scope is unclear, for instance, did they intend to make the NPC/DC episodes from the start?

I'd wager not.

So you're saying then that Anno and Gainax right of the bat knew they were going to make D&R, EoE, and the NPC episodes.


No, sorry about that. I think the exact opposite. I think the original intent was a once off 26 episode series. Actually, I think it's also likely that Death and Rebirth, and quite possibly the Director's cut episodes were themselves initially unintended, but grew as offshoots of the larger project that became End of Evangelion.
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Re: EoTV/EoE Concurrency and Gainax

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Postby The Eva Monkey » Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:59 pm

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:
The Eva Monkey wrote:
ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:
The Eva Monkey wrote:The full scope is unclear, for instance, did they intend to make the NPC/DC episodes from the start?

I'd wager not.

So you're saying then that Anno and Gainax right of the bat knew they were going to make D&R, EoE, and the NPC episodes.


No, sorry about that. I think the exact opposite. I think the original intent was a once off 26 episode series. Actually, I think it's also likely that Death and Rebirth, and quite possibly the Director's cut episodes were themselves initially unintended, but grew as offshoots of the larger project that became End of Evangelion.
Actually, that's my bad. Midterms have officially killed my brain. And I still have a term paper to write... :cry:

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:04 pm

Midterms are evil indeed. Carry on!
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Postby AuthenticM » Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:04 am

Sailor Star Dust wrote:Midterms are evil indeed. Carry on!

What's a midterm?
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Postby Otaprince » Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:43 am

sailor star dust,

to address your initial question: what did Anno and his crew intend-- short anser, we don't know. Gainax obviously ran out of money on the TV series, and decided to do a proper end to Eva trough the movies. That much is beyond dispute. It's basically up to you to prefer the TV ending (Shinji accepts instrumentality and decides to live inside it) or the EoE ending (Shinji rejects instrumentality and chooses a world where people will still hurt one another). Although there are some arguments that the TV and EoE endings are not mutually exclusive, I personally disagree-- You've got to pick one or the other, or at least acknowledge that they're different endings.


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