How did Misato survive the second impact, shouldnt there be some anti AT-Field?

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How did Misato survive the second impact, shouldnt there be some anti AT-Field?

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Postby TraxXavier » Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:33 am

I was thinking today about the second impact, there is a scene in EoE where they compare measurements from the second impact and "now" when the S2's sync up to create an Anti AT-Field.
And in rebuild of Evangelion it appears that all see live was dissolved into LCL already during the second impact.
So given the presence of an Anti AT-Field, how could Misato survived? This flimsy little capsule shouldn't dampen an Anti AT-Field in any meaningful way I would assume.

An other related thought is that from what we see, the explosion is really not that big, so what caused the climate change? And why the masses believed it was an asteroid, imho. if most of the destruction wouldn't have been caused by a normal explosion, surly hundreds of independent scientists would call BS on the public story.

And before someone posts, its only an anime it has to be illogical or something like that, just don't. it does not help in any way.
Its like saying why the hack do you want to get this colorful rubicx qube in order, its much prettier as it is.
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Re: How did Misato survive the second impact, shouldnt there be some anti AT-Field?

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Postby Reichu » Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:39 am

Forget about the Anti A.T. Field. Misato was pretty much next to Adam when it exploded. She should have died a thousand times over from the kinetic energy, the heat, and everything else. A related, and perhaps relevant, concern is how did the Adam and Tabris embryos survive? I suppose the former is implied to be a mysterious byproduct of Adam's destruction, but the former was presumably inside Adam when she went ka-boom. Even if that isn't true, neither object possessed a soul at the time and would not have been able to generate a protective A.T. Field. So what was stopping them from being vaporized? I've had to deal with these problems for my own fanfic, but I'm afraid my solutions are so 'context specific' that they couldn't help you much. Just be creative and, since this is Eva and all, don't be afraid of getting a bit zany.

If you don't want to roll with the "Earth was thrown off its axis" nonsense, I suppose you could go with "climate change as inevitable result of Antarctic ice completely melting and destroying the system of ocean currents".
Last edited by Reichu on Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How did Misato survive the second impact, shouldnt there be some anti AT-Field?

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Postby TraxXavier » Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:24 am

Yea, the melted icecap should be enough to totally mess up the climate.

Based on a statement which has been used to cover up the event, a.k.a. it was a 10cm asteroid moving at 95% of the speed of light, I calculated the impact energy. Assuming its a metal asteroid density: 7,874 g/cm3. I came up with e = (m*c^2)/((1-(v^2)/(c^2))^0.5) = 1.2e+18 joule that is equivalent to 283 Megaton TNT.
Thats just like 6 times the TZAR bomb, somehow I think that is not enough to blow of the arctic icecap.
... yup its not, to melt all 30 million km3 ice on the antarctic one would need 4.52e+26 J i.e. 108 billion megatons TNT
given that comparison of asteroid impacts: http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/q975.html only 200 million megaton TNT is enough for a mass extinction

to put it into perspective, the earth gets 8.64e+24 J of energy from the sun per year,
now I'm wondering it that makes sense, it would mean that we would need the total energy of the sunn for 52 years to melt the south pool down completely.
Yea given the antarctic ice sheet is hundreds of thousands years old that is plausible....


Now if I'm not mistaken melting 30 million km3 ice would increase the sea level on earth by about +60 meters.
given this topological map: https://www.worldofmaps.net/typo3temp/i ... -japan.jpg 60 works...


Now I don't really know what to do in my fanfic :/ I think I'll just change Misatos background story.
For once there is no reasonable way how she could survive without some impossible alien tech for protection.
Second, all we saw of the second impact it was nothing to traumatize someone to stop speaking for a year. And if she has been affected by an AT field in some way, NERV would just keep her as a guinea pig for the rest of her life.
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Re: How did Misato survive the second impact, shouldnt there be some anti AT-Field?

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:34 am

View Original PostTraxXavier wrote:Second, all we saw of the second impact it was nothing to traumatize someone to stop speaking for a year.

Combined with the loss of a parent, sure it is. The effects of trauma are very variable and can't be easily predicted.

As for the rest, no science fiction is completely credible; as a rough idea, if it was it would no longer be fiction! Better just to roll with it, and brush over the difficulties in the way that best suits you.
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Re: How did Misato survive the second impact, shouldnt there be some anti AT-Field?

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Postby TraxXavier » Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:57 am

Well, I would not enjoy any science fiction where they move faster than light, without some sort of elaborate cheating mechanism, warp drive, worm wholes, etc.
Some things are to much BS to brush over, if you try that, you literally just spread the BS all round. Especially if its a relevant plot point.

What I like about good science fiction is that that it should never contradict established scientific knowledge in an obvious way. They are free to invent new laws of physics and mechanisms, but they should not break existing once.

About trauma, idk. you may be right.
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Re: How did Misato survive the second impact, shouldnt there be some anti AT-Field?

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:39 pm

View Original PostTraxXavier wrote:So given the presence of an Anti AT-Field, how could Misato survived?


It is never explained, and is one of the few actual plot holes in NGE.

An other related thought is that from what we see, the explosion is really not that big, so what caused the climate change?


Not that big? It destroyed a continent. It was bigger than any explosion the Earth has ever seen since the impact that led to the formation of the moon. The loss of Antarctica's ice sheet alone would be enough to cause the climate change in question, but the sheer force of the blast also changed the Earth's axial tilt.
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Re: How did Misato survive the second impact, shouldnt there be some anti AT-Field?

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Postby Reichu » Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:59 pm

I've heard that any force sufficient to knock the Earth off its axis would also do things MUCH more dramatic than changing the weather -- like, say, melting the whole damned crust. If that's true, TraxXavier would probably wish to leave that detail out.
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Re: How did Misato survive the second impact, shouldnt there be some anti AT-Field?

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:11 pm

Not sure about melting the crust; but consider the momentum of the water in the oceans - there'd be tsunami's like you've never dreamt of, and they'd probably oscillate back and forth for a while, too. There'd be nothing left on the surface of Japan, for sure.
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Re: How did Misato survive the second impact, shouldnt there be some anti AT-Field?

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:47 pm

The Katsuragi expedition's escape capsules must have been made of really durable stuff to withstand a blast of that magnitude. Why didn't they build the Entry Plugs out of the same material? It doesn't seem like the explosion moved her that far away, either.

It's slightly more believable in Rebuild since the continent wasn't annihilated, but the pod still withstood whatever energy vaporized Dr. Katsuragi just seconds before.

...How the hell DID anyone recover Misato when the whole place was purified and toxic to humans? :huh:
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Re: How did Misato survive the second impact, shouldnt there be some anti AT-Field?

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:54 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Not sure about melting the crust; but consider the momentum of the water in the oceans - there'd be tsunami's like you've never dreamt of, and they'd probably oscillate back and forth for a while, too. There'd be nothing left on the surface of Japan, for sure.


Indeed. But, let's leave the axial tilt bit aside -- gaffes show up every now and then, and it's not crucial to the plot anyway, so best to just sideline it and move on. Let's think about the rest, and how we might reconcile all of it. First, the destruction of Antarctica. What does that mean, exactly? I mean, I talked above about an explosion that annihilated the landmass, but is that all it can be? The Antarctica we know is just a sheet of ice, really; if that ice is melted Antarctica is effectively destroyed, even though the landmass is relatively untouched. And we know from ep 21' that it was really hot around the research area. What if, once the Anti-ATF was deployed, that heat encompassed most of the continent, such that the ice (relatively) quickly melted? The landmass underneath would eventually rise to the surface, but that would take quite a long time -- I'm not sure how long, but I wouldn't be surprised if it took decades, or even centuries. So, as of 2015, it's possible Antarctica is still there, but is mostly underwater. And if it's underwater ships can easily sail above it, and voila! Script integrity is maintained and we don't have to deal with a planetary disaster.

Which brings us to the topic of the thread. How the heck did Misato survive? Well, to begin with, if we go with the above she doesn't have to survive a planet-cracking explosion, just an S2 explosion and an anti-ATF. That still sounds like a high hurdle to clear, but bear with me here. In episodes 1-2 we saw Sachiel detonate his own S2 organ, and it didn't exactly break the planet. It didn't even break Tokyo-3 (when Unit 00 exploded it was much more devastating by far). What if the explosion in Antarctica was no worse than the explosion of Sachiel, and the other effects (ice melting, etc) were from Adam's anti-ATF and assorted metaphysical nonsense? If that's the case, all we have left to deal with is the anti-ATF. This would be a huge problem, but for one simple point: that silly escape pod.

Think about this: why would a research facility have an escape pod? How does that even make any sense? Research facilities don't have escape pods, they have boats and planes. I mean, hell, what are you gonna escape? Harsh weather? On the one hand this could be read as "oh, lighten up, this is just like self-destructs and such, and those are just as dumb." And that's true, and the fact that Anno uses self-destructs means he's not above using plot devices when it suits him. But what if the pod is something more? What if the point of it is not to protect against an explosion, or to escape anything, but specifically to protect against an anti-ATF? We know such technology exists -- it's why the Evas didn't go POP! like everything else despite the fact that they're biological organisms -- and it would make a lot of sense to develop such a device if one is planning on mucking around with a being capable of creating such fields. Assuming it was designed to defend against exactly that solves a lot of problems.

It's all fanwank, of course, but that's how I see it. Antarctica melted due to a variety of effects, the explosion wasn't any worse than Sachiel's, and Misato was protected by a device engineered specifically to protect her from that very thing. That leaves the Adam embryo as the only variable (since I maintain that Kaworu, like Rei, was created after the fact, a notion supported by the fact that Seele apparently has multiple copies of him sitting around in a Kaworuquarium or whatever), and I admit I have no clue on that front. But it's the embryo of a Seed of Life, so who knows?
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Re: How did Misato survive the second impact, shouldnt there be some anti AT-Field?

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Postby Reichu » Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:10 pm

"Wasn't any worse than Sachiel's": Adam's explosion was of sufficient magnitude to vaporize the White Moon. (We're told in #24' that the White Moon was "lost".) Not even the humongous explosion in EoE, which destroyed Hakone and the surrounding area, was that powerful, being as it left the Black Moon perfectly intact.

AATFs: I think it's simpler to say that high-energy beings like Evas and Angels are not effected by AATFs. Whatever exactly an AATF is, we already know that the "gods" of the show have more powerful ATFs than the ones shown being neutralized by AATFs, so why should they be effected? Would make it pretty difficult to emit an AATF in the first place, if doing so just resulted in one's body being liquified...

Escape Capsules: Dr. Katsuragi's research team was ostensibly working on an S2 engine (if Chronicle is to be believed, anyway). That would make a good project for the surface facility, as alternative energy research is a bit more low key than study of a humongous extraterrestrial object and the giant entity within it. The presence of the capsules might make sense as a precaution for meltdowns or whatever the S2 reactor equivalent is.

...Though, this doesn't really address the fact that apparently no one else considered using one of the capsules despite ample warning and opportunity, or that only one of them seemed to still be intact and functional after (maybe even BEFORE) Adam blasted to the surface. It's really not a well thought out detail at all. Sigh.

Blue Basilisk: The entry plugs seem to be pretty sturdy, evidenced by the fact that most of Rei's plug was intact after Eva-00 blew sky-high. Though I suppose, comparatively, it's not that impressive.

Only way I can figure for Misato's survival to make any sense whatsoever is if a protective ATF were somehow involved, since those darned things just chew up the laws of physics and spit them back out. But that concept is, obviously, so crazy I don't expect anyone else to have a use for it. I'm sure as hell not going to explain what I'm up to. That would give too much of my fanfic away. Nyao~. :-3c
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Re: How did Misato survive the second impact, shouldnt there be some anti AT-Field?

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:49 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:"Wasn't any worse than Sachiel's"?


Correct. We have no reason to believe it was. White Moon, you say? That's 13.75 kilometers, who gives a shit? N2 mines cover that territory. I think it's far more likely that Adam's S2 specs match that of Sachiel's S2 than that Adam's are somehow capable of annihilating an entire continent (with all the problems that that entails. Which, as a reminder, we're looking to avoid here) while Sachiel's can't even manage a city.

As to the rest, already covered in my previous post.
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Re: How did Misato survive the second impact, shouldnt there be some anti AT-Field?

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Postby Reichu » Fri Apr 22, 2016 8:07 pm

So blowing up a city block is exactly the same as vaporizing up a giant spheroid capable of surviving the destruction of an entire city and the surrounding countryside? What is this I don't even.

Also, I just checked Chronicle's Glossary entry for "Antarctica" and it says the continent was completely destroyed.
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Re: How did Misato survive the second impact, shouldnt there be some anti AT-Field?

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Postby Tarnsman » Fri Apr 22, 2016 8:13 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Correct. We have no reason to believe it was. White Moon, you say? That's 13.75 kilometers, who gives a shit? N2 mines cover that territory. I think it's far more likely that Adam's S2 specs match that of Sachiel's S2 than that Adam's are somehow capable of annihilating an entire continent (with all the problems that that entails. Which, as a reminder, we're looking to avoid here) while Sachiel's can't even manage a city.

As to the rest, already covered in my previous post.


Adam knocked the Earth off its axis and put Japan on the equator. Sachiel blew up part of a city. I can see how you'd think those two blasts had equal force.
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Re: How did Misato survive the second impact, shouldnt there be some anti AT-Field?

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Apr 23, 2016 1:05 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:So blowing up a city block is exactly the same as vaporizing up a giant spheroid capable of surviving the destruction of an entire city and the surrounding countryside? What is this I don't even.


Those explosions aren't really comparable, so it's a moot point (mostly because the explosion associated with 3I wasn't caused by an S2 explosion, which is what we're talking about here; best to compare apples to apples, no?).

Also, I just checked Chronicle's Glossary entry for "Antarctica" and it says the continent was completely destroyed.


But as I said, what does that actually mean? Antarctica, as we know it, is a sheet of ice covering a bunch of island continents. If the ice is destroyed and the continents that remain are underwater Antarctica, as a geographical entity, is destroyed.

Yes, it's playing with semantics, but that's what I was getting at when I said "Let's think about the rest, and how we might reconcile all of it." If you're faced with irreconcilable notions you have to give a little if you're gonna make everything work.

View Original PostTarnsman wrote:Adam knocked the Earth off its axis and put Japan on the equator. Sachiel blew up part of a city. I can see how you'd think those two blasts had equal force.


Did you miss the part where I said "But, let's leave the axial tilt bit aside -- gaffes show up every now and then, and it's not crucial to the plot anyway, so best to just sideline it and move on."?
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Re: How did Misato survive the second impact, shouldnt there be some anti AT-Field?

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Postby Reichu » Sat Apr 23, 2016 1:20 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Those explosions aren't really comparable, so it's a moot point (mostly because the explosion associated with 3I wasn't caused by an S2 explosion, which is what we're talking about here; best to compare apples to apples, no?).

The MP Evas "open up their S2 engines" and start glowing (armor and all), there's some talk about an AATF, and then there's a humongous explosion that liberates the Black Moon. Maya says the data are identical to those for Second Impact. The show is telling you that the incidences are fundamentally the same, so I don't think you can get any MORE apples and apples than that! There is the difference in magnitude, but that's easy to explain on account of Adam's S2 being completely out of control, whereas the MP Evas' were not.

But as I said, what does that actually mean?

The "completely" (in Japanese, shimatta) part doesn't leave much to the imagination, methinks...
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Re: How did Misato survive the second impact, shouldnt there be some anti AT-Field?

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Apr 23, 2016 1:29 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:The MP Evas "open up their S2 engines" and start glowing (armor and all), there's some talk about an AATF, and then there's a humongous explosion that liberates the Black Moon. Maya says the data are identical to those for Second Impact. The show is telling you that the incidences are fundamentally the same, so I don't think you can get any MORE apples and apples than that! There is the difference in magnitude, but that's easy to explain on account of Adam's S2 being completely out of control, whereas the MP Evas' were not.


I think the fact that there was no actual source for the explosion in 3I (i.e., no S2 engine blew up) is relevant. The identical data Maya referenced are not the explosion, which is clearly not the same, but rather the anti-ATF. I think the fact that Adam's S2 organ blew up while he was inside the white moon explains things there; the black moon was never subjected to that kind of force.

The "completely" (in Japanese, shimatta) part doesn't leave much to the imagination, methinks...


But again, this is Antarctica we're talking about. Get rid of the ice and the continent as we know it is gone.

But if you would prefer a straightforward interpretation that is utterly nonsensical, by all means, be my guest. All I offered was an alternative for those who found the standard reading unpalatable.
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Re: How did Misato survive the second impact, shouldnt there be some anti AT-Field?

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Postby Reichu » Sat Apr 23, 2016 2:01 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I think the fact that Adam's S2 organ blew up while he was inside the white moon explains things there; the black moon was never subjected to that kind of force.

Interesting how you're emphasizing a "fact" that is not even correct. (Adam was on the surface when she blew sky-high, not inside the White Moon.) How do I put this... It might behoove you to review the material with a bit more care before attempting to fanwank it. That way, you can see what's actually going on and have an informed opinion on the matter.

But if you would prefer a straightforward interpretation that is utterly nonsensical, by all means, be my guest.

Eh, all you've really been doing is substituting one kind of nonsense for another. But, naturally, people tend to prefer their own nonsense to those of others.
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Re: How did Misato survive the second impact, shouldnt there be some anti AT-Field?

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Postby NemZ » Sat Apr 23, 2016 2:25 am

View Original PostTraxXavier wrote:So given the presence of an Anti AT-Field, how could Misato survived? This flimsy little capsule shouldn't dampen an Anti AT-Field in any meaningful way I would assume.


Oh, you probably don't think Indiana Jones could survive being at ground zero of a nuke by hiding inside a fridge either. :rolleyes:

Evangelion is not hard sci-fi, and any attempt to treat it as such is bound to result in disappointment. As soon as you break out the math you have already lost.
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Re: How did Misato survive the second impact, shouldnt there be some anti AT-Field?

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Apr 23, 2016 2:29 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Interesting how you're emphasizing a "fact" that is not even correct. (Adam was on the surface when she blew sky-high, not inside the White Moon.)


Fine, call it "on top of" the White Moon if you prefer. The fact remains that you're comparing an S2 explosion that occurred in close proximity to the White Moon with a simple anti-ATF (well, not just that, but we really have no idea what the hell was going on with that eyeball explosion) that excavated the Black Moon. There's nothing comparable about those phenomena. But I think it is fair to compare one exploding S2 organ with another, and to draw conclusions accordingly.

But if you don't, you don't, and that's fine.
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