Kaji on the phone?

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Kaji on the phone?

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Postby BC Baron » Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:55 pm

View Original PostKvanu wrote:Also, he endangered Misato's life in Episode 7 by facilitating "the project" that would lead to Jet Alone exploding.

Was Kaji involved in Jet Alone's sabotage? I thought he was still en route to Tokyo III with Asuka at that point.
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Postby Kvanu » Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:18 pm

View Original PostBC Baron wrote:Was Kaji involved in Jet Alone's sabotage? I thought he was still en route to Tokyo III with Asuka at that point.


Watch the beginning of Episode 7 when Gendo is talking to Kaji over the phone
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Postby Bagheera » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:45 pm

View Original PostKvanu wrote:Watch the beginning of Episode 7 when Gendo is talking to Kaji over the phone


That's unlikely to be Kaji, as he's en route to Japan with Asuka at the time. It's Kaji's VA, yes, but then Rei's VA also does Pen-Pen, and Yui, and the Eva, so . . .

Anyway, the sabotage was orchestrated by Gendo and Ritsuko, not Kaji. It's remotely possible that Kaji knew of it (if he was indeed the unknown guy on the phone), but even in that case the plan didn't call for Misato to get involved (Ritsuko was explicit about this at the end). Kaji is in the clear on this one.
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Postby Reichu » Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:00 pm

Yamadera is actually a very versatile actor (he does Japanese Donald Duck, for goodness sake), so it is kind of suspicious that this mystery man from one episode before Kaji's official debut would sound so similar to Kaji if he weren't actually meant to be Kaji. I'd prefer it be someone else, but I'm dubious as to how likely that is.

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Postby Kvanu » Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:31 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:That's unlikely to be Kaji, as he's en route to Japan with Asuka at the time. It's Kaji's VA, yes, but then Rei's VA also does Pen-Pen, and Yui, and the Eva, so . . .


Seriously? Kaji talks to Gendo on the phone in Episode 8 as well, while he's on the ship. And the man on the phone in Episode 7 not only sounds exactly like Kaji, but speaks like Kaji and has Kaji's carefree attitude. That is without a doubt Kaji on the phone in Episode 7.

And at the every end of the phone conversation, Gendo and Kaji talk about Jet Alone. That's why a picture of Jet Alone flashes when Kaji mentions "the project". He definitely helped facilitate it, even if it's just by calling other contacts while he stays put on the ship.
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:00 am

View Original PostKvanu wrote:Seriously? Kaji talks to Gendo on the phone in Episode 8 as well, while he's on the ship. And the man on the phone in Episode 7 not only sounds exactly like Kaji, but speaks like Kaji and has Kaji's carefree attitude. That is without a doubt Kaji on the phone in Episode 7.


No, we don't, since he's never mentioned by name.

And at the every end of the phone conversation, Gendo and Kaji talk about Jet Alone. That's why a picture of Jet Alone flashes when Kaji mentions "the project". He definitely helped facilitate it, even if it's just by calling other contacts while he stays put on the ship.


No, he didn't, since we know nothing of what actually happened.

And again, even if he did the original plan did not call for Misato's involvement, so he's not responsible for endangering her in any event.
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Postby Dima » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:11 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Yamadera is actually a very versatile actor (he does Japanese Donald Duck, for goodness sake), so it is kind of suspicious that this mystery man from one episode before Kaji's official debut would sound so similar to Kaji if he weren't actually meant to be Kaji. I'd prefer it be someone else, but I'm dubious as to how likely that is.


Pretty much. It's Kaji on the phone, alright. The fact that he debuts in the next episode and it's the same VA proves it. Someone could say that the same VA doesn't mean anything because Rei's VA also does the voice of Yui but let's not forget that Rei is Yui's clone so it makes perfect sense to use the same VA (and it has happened in many animes).
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Postby NemZ » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:19 am

I'm pretty sure It was Kaji, yes, but the implication of the call is that Gendo is telling him he does not need to get involved with Jet Alone because it's already being handled. Kaji, having ties to the Japanese government who are funding the Jet Alone project as an alternative to NERV and who are technically (one of) the ones who (not so) secretly sent him to keep an eye on things there, makes a lot of sense as someone who would know a thing or two about it.

Geez it must be confusing for Kaji to keep his stories straight. So many masters, but loyal to none.
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Postby Kvanu » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:41 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:No, we don't, since he's never mentioned by name.


NGE would be impossible to understand if you only learned information when the show spelt it out for you.

There's something called inference based on context clues and circumstantial evidence. You are like a jury on a murder trial who will not find for a guilty criminal because "Wait but no one saw the murder happen, so it didn't!"

Kaji was on the phone with Gendo in Episode 7. Simple a that
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:42 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:I'm pretty sure It was Kaji, yes, but the implication of the call is that Gendo is telling him he does not need to get involved with Jet Alone because it's already being handled. Kaji, having ties to the Japanese government who are funding the Jet Alone project as an alternative to NERV and who are technically (one of) the ones who (not so) secretly sent him to keep an eye on things there, makes a lot of sense as someone who would know a thing or two about it.


Pretty much, yeah. I agree it seems likely, but to conclude from that that he was involved in the incident just doesn't follow.
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Postby Kvanu » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:44 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Pretty much, yeah. I agree it seems likely


"That's unlikely to be Kaji"

Anyway he was involved in the incident enough that Gendo had to mention it to him in their catch up. Also the beginning of the call has Gendo thanking Kaji for doing him a favor, proving that Kaji has gotten spy things done even on the ship. I'm not saying that favor was Jet Alone related, but he's not a sitting duck.
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:23 am

View Original PostKvanu wrote:Anyway he was involved in the incident enough that Gendo had to mention it to him in their catch up.


That proves he was aware of the incident, not involved.

Also the beginning of the call has Gendo thanking Kaji for doing him a favor, proving that Kaji has gotten spy things done even on the ship. I'm not saying that favor was Jet Alone related, but he's not a sitting duck.


"Also, he endangered Misato's life in Episode 7 by facilitating "the project" that would lead to Jet Alone exploding."

Seems like you are saying that (though I have no idea what you mean by "sitting duck").
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
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Postby Reichu » Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:43 pm

I've sniffed around. Both Film Book 3 and the Blu-ray Box booklet confirm that it's Kaji at the beginning of episode 7.

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Postby BC Baron » Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:35 pm

I never had any problem with Kaji being the guy on the phone in episode seven. It makes sense to me that Kaji might be willing to track down and supply Gendo with classified data on the Jet Alone project, as well as some inside info on SEELE, in order to eventually gain a level of trust and access with NERV, which he could ultimately manipulate in the hopes of getting a better look at what they're hiding in the basement.

I'm just unsure as to how much actual involvement he had in the reprogramming of JA's computers to simulate a near meltdown. I would suspect that most of the sabotage probably required direct on-site access to the JA mainframe itself, which I figured Ritsuko, working under Gendo's orders, was personally responsible for (and the less people who know about it, the better).

At this point in the series, I thought Kaji was travelling with Asuka and the UN naval fleet escort, and despite being a very resourceful spy, I don't think he can be in two places at once. So, while Kaji may have provided most of the information/incentive Gendo needed to carry out his plan to discredit the JA program, I think it's unlikely that Kaji played an active role in said plan, and unclear as to whether Gendo even shared any details with him.

Perhaps I'm just re-stating the points you guys already made.
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Postby Kvanu » Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:06 pm

View Original PostBC Baron wrote:So, while Kaji may have provided most of the information/incentive Gendo needed to carry out his plan to discredit the JA program


That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying he took an active role in the JA project (Ritsuko deserves that complaint) but he mostly likely facilitated it since their conversation on the phone wouldn't make sense if Kaji and Gendo hadn't talked about Jet Alone on at least one occasion before. And mind, he's helping Gendo in different ways as evidenced by the beginning of the phone call when Gendo thanks him for a favor. Even when Kaji is on the ship.

That's not by far the worst thing Kaji has done in the show, of course.
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Postby mammaluser » Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:35 pm

There's a book that was released if i'm not wrong in 1997 called "2015: the last year of ryoji Kaji", which shows every piece of info that Kaji got from his stay on Japan and as far as i know in the book there's not any jet alone related intel on it, i mean there's a 50/50 chance that Kaji may or may not be involved in the jet alone incident and there's to consider the obvious, Kaji was traveling with Asuka and arrived in episode 8 and before that he was at germany.
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Postby mammaluser » Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:45 pm

And talking about Kaji being the person whom gendo is talking in the phone here's some little info (that you may or may not know)...

The person to whom Gendo is speaking on the telephone sounds like Kaji, and is played by Kaji's seiyu, Koichi Yamadera, but it's probably impossible to say for sure whether its actually supposed to be Kaji, or if its just another example of economy in casting. Kaji should be in Germany or at sea with Asuka on the way to Japan.
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Postby pwhodges » Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:04 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:I've sniffed around. Both Film Book 3 and the Blu-ray Box booklet confirm that it's Kaji at the beginning of episode 7.

The Essential Evangelion Chronicle, Side A on the other hand specifically says Gendou's conversation is with "an unidentified individual" without going on to suggest it's Kaji. While that doesn't mean it isn't Kaji, it also implies that it's not thought important who it is.

As to the subject of the thread, the failure of anyone to tell Shinji that Touji was the fourth child stands out for me; and the failure of Gendou to even attempt to explain to Shinji that fighting Bardiel was actually the best option to try to save the pilot. That whole sorry mess just shows up incompetence at every level.
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:40 pm

View Original PostKvanu wrote:That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying he took an active role in the JA project (Ritsuko deserves that complaint) but he mostly likely facilitated it since their conversation on the phone wouldn't make sense if Kaji and Gendo hadn't talked about Jet Alone on at least one occasion before.


You keep saying "mostly likely", but it isn't likely at all. What's likely (if he was the guy on the phone) is that he knew about it, that's all. He's a spy; he's supposed to know stuff. The fact that he inquired about it suggests he might be able to do something, but it also suggests he hasn't don't anything just yet. If he had Gendo's comment to him doesn't make any sense.

And again, you brought this up as a reason to be angry at Kaji, since this plan put Misato in danger, but that was explictly not what was supposed to happen. It isn't reasonable to be angry at Kaji because of Misato's actions, and that applies regardless of whether or not he was involved with the plan.
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The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Kvanu » Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:09 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:You keep saying "mostly likely", but it isn't likely at all. What's likely (if he was the guy on the phone)


Why do you keep pretending like this is up for debate? Both Film Book 3 and the Blu-ray Box booklet confirm that it's Kaji at the beginning of episode 7. It's not up for debate.

View Original Postmammaluser wrote:And talking about Kaji being the person whom gendo is talking in the phone here's some little info (that you may or may not know)...

The person to whom Gendo is speaking on the telephone sounds like Kaji, and is played by Kaji's seiyu, Koichi Yamadera, but it's probably impossible to say for sure whether its actually supposed to be Kaji, or if its just another example of economy in casting. Kaji should be in Germany or at sea with Asuka on the way to Japan.


You do know Kaji and Gendo talked on the phone in Episode 8 right? I don't see how this is somehow proof that Kaji couldn't be on the phone, since he was on the ship. They animated a whole scene of Kaji talking to Gendo on the phone in episode 8

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:The Essential Evangelion Chronicle, Side A on the other hand specifically says Gendou's conversation is with "an unidentified individual" without going on to suggest it's Kaji. While that doesn't mean it isn't Kaji, it also implies that it's not thought important who it is.


They say that because at that point the watcher isn't supposed to know who the person on the other line is, the intent is for Kaji to be an unidentified individual. Only upon second or third viewing are we supposed to figure it out.
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