arguments... why egf is doing them wrong

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Postby Trajan » Sun Sep 27, 2015 4:34 pm

I think there's more to this departure than what Ursus's post would indicate. Given the things I've heard about the current state of backstage politics, I think this was for the best, but we need to face the music people. EGF can't handle a political debate or discussion without flame wars erupting. Either learn to argue like adults or don't argue at all. It's getting really tiresome seeing Conservatives vs. Liberals Part XV with people hurling insults at each other because they don't like what the other side is saying. I want to feel like we can discuss mature topics here, but you're not making that easy for me to believe and I can see why the mods wanted to ban discussion of it. I'm not going to name names, but it's obvious to me that some users simply can't debate in a mature manner.

Instead of burying your head in the sand and pretending this is business as usual, resolve to make sure a shitstorm like this doesn't happen again. I don't care if anyone accuses me of backseat moderation, because somebody needs to say this.
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Postby Dima » Wed Oct 07, 2015 4:58 am

View Original PostTrajan wrote:I think there's more to this departure than what Ursus's post would indicate. Given the things I've heard about the current state of backstage politics, I think this was for the best, but we need to face the music people. EGF can't handle a political debate or discussion without flame wars erupting. Either learn to argue like adults or don't argue at all. It's getting really tiresome seeing Conservatives vs. Liberals Part XV with people hurling insults at each other because they don't like what the other side is saying. I want to feel like we can discuss mature topics here, but you're not making that easy for me to believe and I can see why the mods wanted to ban discussion of it. I'm not going to name names, but it's obvious to me that some users simply can't debate in a mature manner.


Story of this forum. First time i tried to take part in a hot topic discussion ''Same Sex Marriage'', i understood why people were saying that we can't have a discussion about an important matter. Some users here just can't accept the opinion of the others. Thing is that it's happening only from certain people and they have been keeping doing it all the time. It's no secret that some members have some kind of ''immune'' respected to others. These members are mostly old members or have a big number of posts or are in good communication with some people from the staff. These members no matter what they will say or behave they will always have special treatment like no warnings, no bans (or a small period of ban) etc.

View Original PostTrajan wrote:Instead of burying your head in the sand and pretending this is business as usual, resolve to make sure a shitstorm like this doesn't happen again. I don't care if anyone accuses me of backseat moderation, because somebody needs to say this.


I even thought of making a thread about it but i don't believe it will lead anywhere (except the graveyard maybe)

To me is seems that the staff doesn't want to take action. First because it can't handle the situation and second because it doesn't want to. At least this is my opinion. Everytime the discussion will heat up someone will come up, will delete all the posts and send them to the graveyard, put a stupid a title so the others can laugh and call it a day. Instead of resolving the thing as you say someone chooses to bury the head in the sand which translates to the graveyard here.

This is one of the reasons that i didn't donate to the site (because i was planning). I was hoping that with donating maybe the small amount of money would be used to make this forum better but even if that was the case it wouldn't resolve the big problem. The one that needs to be solved from inside.

Personally after what happened the last 3 days, i decided to stop taking this place so seriously. I am tried of trying to bring up all the things that the others want to hide. Maybe i was backseating modding too but at least i was doing it for a good purpose. I won't PM no one from the staff again and ask them to take action because it's crystal clear it won't happen anything major around these parts.

Finally i don't care if this post ends up in the graveyard or disappear like a thin air (something that has been done with my posts before).
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Postby NemZ » Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:39 am

Let's not clutter up the announcement thread with a complaint tangent.

It's no secret that some members have some kind of ''immune'' respected to others.


No, it isn't a secret. The more we want you here the less likely we are to send you away. Obviously.
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Postby Monk Ed » Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:59 am

Translation: Repeat offenders get increasingly graduated punishments eventually resulting in a permaban if they seem to be more trouble than their contribution to the site is worth. After a long pattern of trouble, eventually the question is asked "Is it better for the forum if this person stays or goes?" -- and for members who don't have that record of worthwhile contribution, the answer is more likely to be the latter.
Last edited by Monk Ed on Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sachi » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:03 am

View Original PostDima wrote:To me is seems that the staff doesn't want to take action. First because it can't handle the situation and second because it doesn't want to. At least this is my opinion. Everytime the discussion will heat up someone will come up, will delete all the posts and send them to the graveyard, put a stupid a title so the others can laugh and call it a day. Instead of resolving the thing as you say someone chooses to bury the head in the sand which translates to the graveyard here.

Is locking and/or sending threads to the graveyard not an example of staff taking action? What sort of further action do you suggest we take to improve the health of political discussion? When a shitstorm becomes a shitstorm, a warning or two can be given, but really the best option is to shut the thread down. Beyond that, the onus is on those involved in the discussion to not let it reach the point of becoming a shitstorm.

Personally after what happened the last 3 days, i decided to stop taking this place so seriously.

Probably a good idea. There's no need to be serious all of the time, and doing so will just create unnecessary stress and frustration. This place should be for leisure and enjoyment.
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Postby Dima » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:31 am

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:After a long pattern of trouble, eventually the question is asked "Is it better for the forum if this person stays or goes?"


Now this is interesting. Can you explain more about this ''procedure''? Obviously this happens among the staff but can you be more precise of the way you are doing? Is it a discussion, a poll with votes? Do you consider the number of posts or how long this user has been here or if he has attribute to this community in any way? If you don't want to discuss it in more detail i will understand since this is a staff thing mostly but i am curious.

View Original PostSachi wrote:Is locking and/or sending threads to the graveyard not an example of staff taking action?


Depends. In my opinion no. This has been brought up many times in the past and that's why many members have replied with ''heads in the sand''. Of course when a thread goes completely off-topic, users are insulting each other, complete derailment a lock is needed.

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:What sort of further action do you suggest we take to improve the health of political discussion? When a shitstorm becomes a shitstorm, a warning or two can be given, but really the best option is to shut the thread down. Beyond that, the onus is on those involved in the discussion to not let it reach the state of becoming a shitstorm.


Maybe the thread shouldn't be getting it all the time for once. Maybe you should try to identify who started the shitstorm and who continued it. I imagine that the staff must be sending a lot of warnings. The question is, are these warning doing anything? For some people, sure it does. For others no and this obviously can lead to a ban. The problem is that for some people who are not so ''famous'' here the ban is permanent and for other users more ''famous'' the ban is temporary. Since i always like to speak with evidence i will provide some.

On April 29th 2015 the user Bagheera was banned until May 13, 2015, 7:17 am.
The reason according to DMYSYS was: A recent history of bad behavior including ignoring a moderator post and mistreatment of other users.

When i read the post i was in a public place and i started laughing loudly. Recent history? Recent? This particular user has a long long history of bad behavior. In fact i remember that some years ago when he was banned again (yeah it happens a lot with him) one of the staff said the this is Bagheera's last chance of staying in this community. Now i know what many will say. I have a grudge against Bagheera and that's why i am bringing this up. The important thing thing is not if i have a grudge against Bagheera the important thing is that what i posted is 100% true. And for the record i brought him up randomly as an example. No grudges from my part. Hopefully he won't take it personal and drive this thread off-topic by saying i have a grudge against him.

View Original PostNemZ wrote:No, it isn't a secret. The more we want you here the less likely we are to send you away. Obviously.


Of course. Obviously.
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Postby Rosenakahara » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:50 am

This probably wont add much and this might be a bad idea but can I please ask why you are so obsessed with bags, its getting unhealthy at this point.
Because yes you do have a grudge, you bring him up all the time in places that have nothing to do with him, he is always the person you bring up first when you want an example seriously do you not see any hint of a fixation here at all?
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Postby Dima » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:22 am

View Original PostRosenakahara wrote:This probably wont add much and this might be a bad idea but


Then why are you posting it in the first place? You are the last person to talk about obsession considering yours with Xard. Can you remind me 3 more times where i mentioned Bagheera out of the blue? It's time of you to stop accusing other persons with no evidence Rose. This is the second time you are doing it with me. What's your problem anyway?

Come on, i know where are you trying to get, some of us are not so stupid. If you really wanted to ask you could send a PM and not try to derail this thread. We are trying to arrive somewhere here. I advise you to delete your message and i will do the same with mine. And for the record my previous post answered most of your questions.
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Postby Lavinius » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:29 am

Come off it now, who on this foul planet isn't obsessed with Bagheera?
View Original PostDima wrote:You are the last person to talk about obsession considering yours with Xard.
:rei_blush:

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:37 am

^^

Rose doesn't go out of her way to insert Xard into discussions that have nothing to do with Xard.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Postby pwhodges » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:41 am

View Original PostDima wrote:To me it seems that the staff doesn't want to take action.

No, they take action which you don't like. Tough. You're not staff; you, and I, and everybody else have to follow follow the existing forum rules and submit to the staff's decisions.

If you want to change the forum's established policy neither saying that you don't like it nor saying that other (unnamed) forums do it differently will cut any ice. You need to provide a persuasive argument for change, and then get people to agree with you on it. As for other forums - I am admin at another forum, similar size to this, also well-respected - and although in some respects we are distinctly tougher on behaviour that is out-of-line than this place is, in other ways the staff here can be more proactive.

So, you are free to have your say, and it will be read; but don't assume that the staff will agree just because you say it. If you want a different forum, you may find in the end that you have to go to a different forum to find it.
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Postby Dima » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:43 am

This is why we can't have any serious topics. You guys need only some posts to put it on it's knees.

It took you only some posts to make my prediction come true

View Original PostDima wrote:I even thought of making a thread about it but i don't believe it will lead anywhere (except the graveyard maybe)


It happens almost everytime in this community that it's just......ill.
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Postby pwhodges » Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:07 am

Can you please explain what you think caused you to start on this crusade, because I can't see anything other than your reaction to a comment about whether a new thread about Anima and Rebuild was needed (the first graveyarded post).

As far as I can see, a slight disagreement (over the need for a thread), and an obvious remark (about the uselessness of complaining about the delay to Final) have led you to attack a user who was not involved and then the forum staff. I just wonder what you aim to get out of it.
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Postby Gob Hobblin » Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:08 am

^

You haven't added anything substantive to the debate, however. Take a look at Squigsquasher: he was a long-time poster, and he tended to slide around the permaban a lot due to his contributions. When the contributions went off the deep end, and his behavior became confrontational, he was permabanned. His 'fame' didn't do anything to help him there.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Postby Sachi » Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:54 am

View Original PostDima wrote:Then why are you posting it in the first place? You are the last person to talk about obsession considering yours with Xard. Can you remind me 3 more times where i mentioned Bagheera out of the blue? It's time of you to stop accusing other persons with no evidence Rose. This is the second time you are doing it with me. What's your problem anyway?

These personal jabs aren't helping your case. Stop attacking other users.
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Postby Bagheera » Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:05 am

View Original PostTrajan wrote:Instead of burying your head in the sand and pretending this is business as usual, resolve to make sure a shitstorm like this doesn't happen again. I don't care if anyone accuses me of backseat moderation, because somebody needs to say this.


The mods really are dealing with it, though. Mod decisions are becoming more and more transparent (the ban notices thread is really good for that), and they're also becoming more consistent. The mods are also putting forth a fair bit of effort to improve the site, which will make moderation even easier later on down the line. So, bit by bit, things are getting better.

As to politics, I don't think it's a huge issue since most of the serial muckrakers have either been banned or left of their own accord. So long as people aren't intentionally trying to stir up trouble I think the rest will sort itself out on its own.
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Postby Dima » Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:21 am

View Original PostSachi wrote:These personal jabs aren't helping your case. Stop attacking other users.


What's this case you are talking about? I am being judged here? I responded the way she responded. Why are you seeing only the one side? Aside that i asked her to back up her claims in order to stop accusing me. Is this a bad thing? You like seeing other persons accusing others without any evidence? At least when i am doing it i provide evidence to back up my claims.

I won't continue this. I said it in my first post otherwise i could make my own thread and not wait for a mod to separate one my posts and make it a new thread.

This is the last time i am posting on this thread. As i said i stop taking this place seriously any more. I shouldn't take it in the first place because a forum is a place for relaxing (at least for me).

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:The case no one understands. What is it you actually want, that you're making all this noise about?


What are you talking about? I didn't make this thread if you noticed. I just stated my opinion. Is this called noise for you?

Stop quoting me and respect what i said (about not wanting to post in this thread again).
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Postby pwhodges » Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:30 am

View Original PostDima wrote:What's this case you are talking about?

The case no one understands. What is it you actually want, that you're making all this noise about?
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Postby Sachi » Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:49 am

@Dima: you're being awfully defensive and disrespectful with those who are trying to understand you. It's the attitude that's the problem, not what you're saying.
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Postby TehDonutKing » Wed Oct 07, 2015 11:38 am

I never said anything about Squig's recent permaban, despite him being my friend, because he still deserved it. He reaped what he sewed, so to speak. That said, what this forum's moderation needs is consistency. I should likely have been temp-banned more than i did back when i was in my mid-teens and had just joined and basically acted like an illiterate asshole, and also at the, um, outburst that i had in my second semester of college. However, i was only tempbanned for a week due to something that i honestly did deserve, and later got a month-long ban that was, in my eyes, rather undeserved. That said, this is not my forum, and so i'm not going to bitch about a tempban, regardless of my feelings on its justification. Recently, i changed my avatar to a distorted gif of a creepy-looking piggy bank, and my signature to "African-American brother, i'm rolling in it." in reference to the cash being inserted into the bank. The avatar was removed, which i understand, as someone probably complained of it being distracting. That's fine. My sig was also changed to "PC police were here" which, while i don't think my signature was worth alteration, i didn't mind either, and even found it funny. On a whim, i changed my sig to a meaningless poem that sounded pretty, but inserted a rude acrostic. I planned to keep it for about a day and remove it, just to see who would notice. The acrostic was noticed by the staff. Once again, i would understand a temporary ban for this, or a warning. Instead, there was a vote held backstage on whether to permanently ban me. That was extreme. Granted, using that as my sig was not a wise or tactful decision, but a permanent ban? That's frankly absurd.

Secondly, recall CJD's permanent ban. This was very much unjust; CJD and Reichu acted equally inappropriately, and CJD was permabanned, and Reichu was given a temporary ban, that was later shortened due to issues in her personal life, never mind CJD being severely depressed for reasons iwill not go into. Now, i have nothing against Reichu -- i actually quite like her -- but that was very inconsistent administration. Then, there's the reason that Ursus was demoted and why he banned himself. I know it's never been announced on the forum, but it's fairly easy to infer that he permabanned Fireball and Squigsquasher (one of whom had had, to my knowledge, no prior history of incidents) for disagreeing with his politics. I could be wrong about this, and even if i'm right, the rest of the staff rectified the situation by unbanning both and demoting Ursus, but that's something that, frankly, never should have happened.

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:Rose doesn't go out of her way to insert Xard into discussions that have nothing to do with Xard.

While i do think Dima is being unnecessarily harsh and his personal attacks are uncalled for, this has everything to do with Bagheera. He consistently takes pot shots at everyone he disagrees with about anything, usually passive-aggressively, oftentimes with outright vitriol. He does this all the fucking time and gets off without even a warning for shit that anyone else would get temped for. This is not an isolated incident, either. Look at his post-history; this is a consistent pattern. It's probably known by now that he's the only member i outright dislike, so you'll probably take this with a grain of salt, which is understandable. Just pay closer attention to the content of his posts, regardless of your opinion of him, and you will see it too. He is very much part of the problem of inconsistency.

View Original PostSachi wrote:Is locking and/or sending threads to the graveyard not an example of staff taking action? What sort of further action do you suggest we take to improve the health of political discussion? When a shitstorm becomes a shitstorm, a warning or two can be given, but really the best option is to shut the thread down. Beyond that, the onus is on those involved in the discussion to not let it reach the point of becoming a shitstorm.

I agree with most of this, but when a shitstorm becomes a shitstorm, warn, temp, or ban those who caused it, and be consistent about it. Base it on past history. I don't want special treatment. If you want to ban my sorry ass, then ban my sorry ass. If you want to ban people i like, do it. Just, for the love of the FAR, be consistent. This is the problem. People whom the mods like are given special treatment.


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