Rei II rather than Rei III in Instrumentality

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Rei II rather than Rei III in Instrumentality

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Postby Seoul Gamer » Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:43 am

The usual explanation given for Rei turning against Gendo at the end of the series is that she has Lilith's complete soul, and thus is capable of seeing his manipulations for what they are. My issue with this is that this could easily be down to the character development she got in episode 23, rather than her having a complete soul. She cries when she sees Gendo's classes, noting to herself that this should be the first time she's seen them. This means that her personality changes and character development could have been caused by what she experienced as Rei II, especially when Armisael showed her how she truly felt about Shinji, as opposed to having the missing part of her soul back.

What difference would it make if Rei II had somehow survived the Armisael attack, and was taken to Lilith with Gendo instead of Rei III? The "reunified soul" theory suggests that she would just go along with Gendo since Rei II is loyal to him, and only Rei III would turn against him. But is there any hard evidence that this is because her soul is reunified, and her personality thus restored? Or it is down to her previous character development as Rei II, which clearly carried over to her as Rei III, despite her loss of memory?

What I'm trying to say is, does Rei's rejection of Gendo depend on her being Rei III rather than Rei II? What effect would missing a part of her soul during Instrumentality have? What is the fandom consensus on this?
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Postby Ispellnogood » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:18 am

Rei doesn't turn against gendo in the series. Rei and Gendo End the world in the series.

It's only in the alternate ending End of Evangelion when Rei rejects Gendo, then Shinji ends the world.

You should read the Narritive Concurrency thread.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:21 am

View Original PostIspellnogood wrote:Rei doesn't turn against gendo in the series.

That’s gonna be a tough statement to sell, seeing as how Rei literally told Gendo to his face, “I am not your doll.” Then she abandons Gendo, who keeps trying to call her back to him, and does things with Lilith’s body that Gendo didn’t approve of.

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Postby Ispellnogood » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:24 am

In the Alternate Ending EoE she does. Unless my memory on the fritz, I'm going to say she doesn't say that in series. Or anything resembling that.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:27 am

That’s true. Though that debate is a long lasting one and hinges on the lack of evidence equaling evidence of absence from one ending to support that idea. I’d rather pick the ending that provided the most details if we’re going to discuss the specifics of an ending.
Last edited by FreakyFilmFan4ever on Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Seoul Gamer » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:30 am

View Original PostIspellnogood wrote:Rei doesn't turn against gendo in the series. Rei and Gendo End the world in the series.

It's only in the alternate ending End of Evangelion when Rei rejects Gendo, then Shinji ends the world.

You should read the Narritive Concurrency thread.


My apologies, I should have made myself clear. Like many fans, I work from the assumption that End of Evangelion basically replaces the last two episodes of the series, canonically. This is the assumption we'll work with for this thread.
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Postby Ispellnogood » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:35 am

This is why EvaGeeks needs to come to a conclusion Narritive Concurrency.




Anyway I don't think Rei rejecting Gendo in EoE has much to do with which Rei it is. It was more of a declaration that Rei is her own person.

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:39 am

View Original PostIspellnogood wrote:This is why EvaGeeks needs to come to a conclusion Narritive Concurrency.

That won't happen; as you already know, people disagree on this, and Anno has made it clear that they are at liberty to do so. All that's required (and the most you can expect) is for people to make it clear what they are talking about when the differences might be relevant to a discussion.
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Postby Seoul Gamer » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:03 am

View Original PostIspellnogood wrote:Anyway I don't think Rei rejecting Gendo in EoE has much to do with which Rei it is. It was more of a declaration that Rei is her own person.


True, but my question is how and why Rei comes to that conclusion. Was it her previous experiences with Shinji and Armisael that changed her mind, or was it regaining the lost part of her soul that made the difference? Would Rei II have turned against Gendo as Rei III did, despite her incomplete soul?
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:20 am

In NGE2, Rei 2's best end is telling Gendo off and going to merge with Lilith, but killing them both so 3I doesn't occur. Her bad end choice/not clearing the Scenario is doing Gendo's 3I wishes.

Just some food for thought.
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Postby Ispellnogood » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:31 am

Rei's decision to reject Gendo at the last minute in EoE, comes almost out of the blue in my opinion.
I actually attribute Rei's rejection of Gendo in EoE as an answer to the angry fanbases "Rei belongs with Shinji not with Gendo!" reaction to EoTV.

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Re: Rei II rather than Rei III in Instrumentality

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Postby NemZ » Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:05 am

View Original PostSeoul Gamer wrote:What I'm trying to say is, does Rei's rejection of Gendo depend on her being Rei III rather than Rei II? What effect would missing a part of her soul during Instrumentality have? What is the fandom consensus on this?


The short answer is that there is no consensus. Even accepting one framework for the ending doesn't get us anywhere because Rei doesn't explain her thinking on the matter.
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Re: Rei II rather than Rei III in Instrumentality

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Postby Seoul Gamer » Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:20 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:The short answer is that there is no consensus. Even accepting one framework for the ending doesn't get us anywhere because Rei doesn't explain her thinking on the matter.


So in other words, you can come to your own conclusions and no one's really in a position to tell you otherwise?
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Postby Ispellnogood » Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:32 am

There is no who, what, why or when.

There is no spoon.

Everything is open to interpretation.



I know, it's retarded.

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:41 am

View Original PostIspellnogood wrote:I know, it's retarded.

Bit like life, really.
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Postby xanderkh » Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:55 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Bit like life, really.


Beat me to it Pwhodges. :lol:

But seriously, like he said, interpretations are all we can go off of, as real life is like that. We're rarely always given straight answers to all of the questions in life and to all their problems.

The best thing we can do is interpret them the best we can, and move on forward.
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Re: Rei II rather than Rei III in Instrumentality

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Postby thewayneiac » Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:08 pm

View Original PostSeoul Gamer wrote:The usual explanation given for Rei turning against Gendo at the end of the series is that she has Lilith's complete soul, and thus is capable of seeing his manipulations for what they are. My issue with this is that this could easily be down to the character development she got in episode 23, rather than her having a complete soul. She cries when she sees Gendo's classes, noting to herself that this should be the first time she's seen them. This means that her personality changes and character development could have been caused by what she experienced as Rei II, especially when Armisael showed her how she truly felt about Shinji, as opposed to having the missing part of her soul back.

What difference would it make if Rei II had somehow survived the Armisael attack, and was taken to Lilith with Gendo instead of Rei III? The "reunified soul" theory suggests that she would just go along with Gendo since Rei II is loyal to him, and only Rei III would turn against him. But is there any hard evidence that this is because her soul is reunified, and her personality thus restored? Or it is down to her previous character development as Rei II, which clearly carried over to her as Rei III, despite her loss of memory?

What I'm trying to say is, does Rei's rejection of Gendo depend on her being Rei III rather than Rei II? What effect would missing a part of her soul during Instrumentality have? What is the fandom consensus on this?


You made a common mistake in there.
Rei 3 wrote:“These are tears? This should be the first time I've seen them, but I feel like this isn't the first time.


She is saying this should be the first time seeing her tears, not Gendo's glasses. She can't remember crying as she self-destructs. There's no evidence she has forgotten anything but the events immediately before her death.

Shinji:“Thank you for saving me.”
Rei:“What do you mean?”
Shinji:“What do I mean? You sacrificed Unit 00 to save me.”
Rei:“I see, so I saved you.”
Shinji:“Yeah, you don't remember?”
Rei:“No, I just don't know.”


She can't remember saving Shinji, but there's no evidence she can't remember who he is. She does not say "Who are you?"

She certainly remembers Gendo's glasses; what has changed is her attitude towards them.
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Postby Seoul Gamer » Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:08 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:Beat me to it Pwhodges. :lol:

But seriously, like he said, interpretations are all we can go off of, as real life is like that. We're rarely always given straight answers to all of the questions in life and to all their problems.

The best thing we can do is interpret them the best we can, and move on forward.


A lot of it is for fanfiction purposes. There are elements of fanon that, while ambiguous, are accepted by the majority of fans, like Rei I's soul being in Unit 00. I don't want to step on anyone's toes if I write a scenario that's too inconsistent with the actual show.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:25 pm

I thought it was pretty obvious that Rei, despite the gaps in her memory, was able to make the connection that of the two Ikaris, only one of them actually cared about her well-being and showed her any genuine human decency, and it wasn't the dude copping her tit like he owned it.
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Re: Rei II rather than Rei III in Instrumentality

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Postby Seoul Gamer » Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:47 pm

View Original Postthewayneiac wrote:You made a common mistake in there.


She is saying this should be the first time seeing her tears, not Gendo's glasses. She can't remember crying as she self-destructs. There's no evidence she has forgotten anything but the events immediately before her death.



She can't remember saving Shinji, but there's no evidence she can't remember who he is. She does not say "Who are you?"

She certainly remembers Gendo's glasses; what has changed is her attitude towards them.


Does it make a difference which of the two she's remembering, I wonder? The impression I'm getting from other posters is that regardless of what she remembers, it is her previous character development that leads her to reject Gendo, rather than getting that missing piece of her soul back.

I suppose the difference is that she doesn't actually forget her relationship with Shinji, as I'd previously assumed.
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