Episode 22, platinum booklets. Clarification?

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Episode 22, platinum booklets. Clarification?

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Postby AlphaGamma » Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:19 pm

So, i came across the description of the station scene with Asuka, Rei and Shinji from episode 22 (director's cut) in the booklets (link: http://www.evamonkey.com/platinum-booklets/episode-commentaries-21-26.php).
It is not stated as a fact, but it is suggested that Asuka may perceive Rei and Shinji as a couple. Having gone back to check out the episode, i simply don't understand how they came to such a conclusion.

My best guess is that they interpreted Asuka's "He's back to his usual thing" as referred specifically to him being alone with Rei (which as we know is something quite unusual in the original NGE) as opposed to her simply referring to the fact that, after being stuck inside his eva for 30 days, being outside, talking to a friend and waiting for a train (or whatever) is something perfectly normal. Essentially expressing resentment (possibly envy) for his ability to go back to his normal life so easily, while she had spent that entire month feeling defeated and hurt (Shinji and Kaji being responsible for that).
As a side note, the italian translation of the line is: "He is perfectly back to his normality".

Asuka then proceeds to say "I've lost to the likes of you", as the "camera" centers on Shinji, further conveying that the main focus of the scene is Shinji himself (though i'm sure Rei's presence contributed to her annoyance).
Could it be that they interpreted this line as directed at Rei? As in, Asuka having lost in getting to Shinji first, which led them to misinterpret its meaning.
Later on, in the same episode, Misato tells Ritsuko that being defeated (as a pilot) by Shinji shattered Asuka's pride, further clarifying the meaning of Asuka's previous line.

Even going back to check other references to Asuka's opinion of Rei and Shinji (in previous episodes), i couldn't find anything to support the booklets. On the contrary, compared to the rebuild and the manga, it seems like, after the initial curiosity (and hints of possessivity), she only perceives them as friends and certainly not as romantically involved (episode 18 in the exchange between Hikari and Asuka, and the end of episode 14 when Asuka is alone in her room).

I hate to obsess over details but i can't help it. Do u have any ideas on the subject? Do you think the writer of the booklets simply made a mistake or do u agree with his (her?) interpretation? Please share your thoughts and sorry about the length of the post, i just wanted to express my opinion on the subject clearly.

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:50 pm

Given the Arael sequence I don't think they misread the line at all. If she was talking about Shinji she could have said that at any time, but instead she says it specifically when he's talking to Rei. Seems pretty clear the line references her, and that the writers of the Platinum book picked up on that.
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Postby Monk Ed » Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:47 pm

When I saw that scene, I thought she was talking about Rei. The phrasing, the context, everything all seemed to be hinting at it -- with a touch of cover to it, like Asuka was trying to convince even herself that she wasn't.
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Postby AlphaGamma » Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:36 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Given the Arael sequence I don't think they misread the line at all. If she was talking about Shinji she could have said that at any time, but instead she says it specifically when he's talking to Rei. Seems pretty clear the line references her, and that the writers of the Platinum book picked up on that.

She is talking about Shinji.
She couldn't have said it at any other time, because that was the first time Asuka saw him after his discharge (remember that the dinner scene after that is the first time they eat together). What i don't understand is how u get from Asuka saying "he's back to his usual thing" (he's back to his normality) to assuming she implies they are a couple, instead of (i don't know) simply being friendly with each other.

When is it that in the series, before ep. 22, has Asuka ever seen Rei and Shinji alone together, to set a precedent that allows Asuka to say "He's back to his usual thing" referred to the two of them.
Only when they went (Rei and Asuka) to the hospital to check on Shinji in ep. 16 and Asuka stayed outside, but that doesn't really count...

To be fair the angel part doesn't have anything to do with Rei, nor is Shinji inability to help Asuka ever blamed on Shinji's relationship with Rei (if that is what you were getting at).

Please try to re-watch the scene in question (dubbed even) with that in mind, and let me know if u are still of the same opinion.
Monk Ed wrote:When I saw that scene, I thought she was talking about Rei. The phrasing, the context, everything all seemed to be hinting at it -- with a touch of cover to it, like Asuka was trying to convince even herself that she wasn't.

But she says "he" not "she" or "they". And when she says "I've lost to the likes of you" Rei isn't even in the shot anymore.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:54 pm

I'd have to watch the scene again. But I'm busy right now, and the first order of business when I get home it watching the new Star Wars trailer 17 times in a row.

But, if Asuka is losing "to the likes of [Shinji]," then she could be referring to the previous angel battle back in episode 19, when Asuka couldn't defeat the angel, but Shinji could. Unfortunately, this interpretation makes no sense, since Shinji "doing his usual thing" didn't involve anybsort of Angel fights at the time Asuka said this.

Earlier in that scene, Asuka was trying (but failing) to context (a dead) Kaji. After he doesn't answer (for reasons unbeknownst to her), she acknowledges that she's losing "to the likes of [Shinji]." If interpreted through this context, Asuka believes that she has lost Kaji to Shinji, which would be an absurd and unprevoked thought for her to have on multiple levels, as (in NGE anyway) Shinji and Kaji were not shown in compromising flirting positions.

As a result, if this scene is referring to Shinji over Rei, I don't see how.
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Postby AlphaGamma » Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:19 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I'd have to watch the scene again. But I'm busy right now, and the first order of business when I get home it watching the new Star Wars trailer 17 times in a row.

But, if Asuka is losing "to the likes of [Shinji]," then she could be referring to the previous angel battle back in episode 19, when Asuka couldn't defeat the angel, but Shinji could. Unfortunately, this interpretation makes no sense, since Shinji "doing his usual thing" didn't involve anybsort of Angel fights at the time Asuka said this.

Earlier in that scene, Asuka was trying (but failing) to context (a dead) Kaji. After he doesn't answer (for reasons unbeknownst to her), she acknowledges that she's losing "to the likes of [Shinji]." If interpreted through this context, Asuka believes that she has lost Kaji to Shinji, which would be an absurd and unprevoked thought for her to have on multiple levels, as (in NGE anyway) Shinji and Kaji were not shown in compromising flirting positions.

As a result, if this scene is referring to Shinji over Rei, I don't see how.


Sorry, i should have probably quoted the scene in its entirety.

Asuka is at the station, calls Kaji on the phone but she doesn't get a response. She looks up to see, to her surprise, Rei sitting down and Shinji next to her (first time she sees him in 1 month). She then proceeds to say (full quote): "He spent an entire month dissolved inside Eva and he's already back to his old ways.
(Camera focused only on Shinji at this point) After all, I lost... and to the likes of you."
It's clearly a reference to the Prodigal Son parable, specifically to how the older brother reacts to the return of the prodigal son (Shinji).

Misato later in the episode: "It's natural, after being beaten that way. More ever, it's much worse that she feels that she was beaten by Shinji."
In relation to losing multiple times to Shinji (as a pilot ofc).

Anyway, by all means watch it when u get an opportunity and let me know.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:31 pm

My Platinum booklet (obviously heh) says that, too. DC 22 is my favorite Bitter End arc episode, actually. The heavy psychological aspects are brilliant though a downer.

I figured Asuka at the train station was a mix of pissed off that she "lost" to Shinji alongside feeling Shinji was giving Rei attention over her (though she'd obviously never admit that).

I think that's generally the best way to look at Eva instead of stuff being one thing over another. :shrug:
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:35 pm

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:I think that's generally the best way to look at Eva instead of stuff being one thing over another. :shrug:


I tend to agree. Also, she hasn't quite lost to him just yet (she can still pilot, and hasn't given up at this point), and if she lost him it would make sense that she'd be focused on him. I think it can be read multiple ways, and that that is probably the intent.
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Postby AlphaGamma » Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:15 pm

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:alongside feeling Shinji was giving Rei attention over her (though she'd obviously never admit that).

I think that's generally the best way to look at Eva instead of stuff being one thing over another. :shrug:

Heh, that is on her though. She could have gone to greet him instead of trying to reach Kaji (lol). Funnily enough, the first thing she asks in the manga when he gets back is if he knows where Kaji is (priorities...).

Bagheera wrote:I tend to agree. Also, she hasn't quite lost to him just yet (she can still pilot, and hasn't given up at this point), and if she lost him it would make sense that she'd be focused on him. I think it can be read multiple ways, and that that is probably the intent.

Alright, let's agree with the possibility of interpreting the scene differently, depending on how u look at it.
Thanks for the input.

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Postby NemZ » Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:07 am

I'd read it as jealousy of the percieved closeness between Shinji and Rei. Given this is one of several additions to this version of the episode and almost all of them have to do with retconning their interactions from being just teasing into a failed earnest attempt at a relationship with Shinji that seems like the most natural reading to me.
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Postby Jäeger » Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:37 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:I'd read it as jealousy of the percieved closeness between Shinji and Rei. Given this is one of several additions to this version of the episode and almost all of them have to do with retconning their interactions from being just teasing into a failed earnest attempt at a relationship with Shinji that seems like the most natural reading to me.


i agree, It was pretty obvious to me that it was about Asuka's jealousy because Shinji and Rei were in good terms

Taking into account what 22' shows us, it would be twisted to think another way.

[url]http://www.evamonkey.com/platinum-booklets/episode-commentaries-21-26.php[/url]

In the station scene, she speaks nastily of Shinji and Rei's relationship, saying, "He is totally back to his usual thing again." Perhaps Asuka thought that the two were a couple or at least in a relationship close to it

About "losing to the ones like you"....open to interpretation.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:21 am

Maybe Asuka feels as though she's losing to Shinji's "usual thing," such as what she believes to be "Stupid Shinji's" poor decision making skills when it comes to relationships.
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:06 am

I always interpreted Shinji's 'usual thing' to refer to Shinji's normal everyday lifestyle, that is to say Asuka is upset that Shinji's totally back to normal as opposed to having been altered in some way by his experience in the Eva. Possibly she interprets part of Shinji's normal lifestyle to mean that he prefers Rei to her. That in turn could mean that Asuka has lost to Rei, whether Rei herself is aware of it or not, because Asuka has been unable to get close to him in the way Rei has.

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Image
I always have been rather interested in this image from Asuka's POV during the train scene, because the way Shinji's eye is drawn makes it seem to me like Shinji is aware of Asuka's presence but is intentionally ignoring her. On the other hand, a few seconds later he's excitedly talking to Rei and doesn't seem to notice Asuka so it's debatable whether that was what they intended to convey.
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