Whitewashing And Diversity In Hollywood?

[Reichu]

I bet back when women weren't allowed to professionally act, people would say, "it's not that we aren't hiring women, it's just that we're hiring the best!" Because, you know, there's no relationship whatsoever between being allowed to act and having experience in acting.

[Kaminoyouni]

I bet back when women weren't allowed to professionally act, people would say, "it's not that we aren't hiring women, it's just that we're hiring the best!" Because, you know, there's no relationship whatsoever between being allowed to act and having experience in acting.

I'm pretty sure that'd be relevant, if we we're living in the past when that was a problem.

Original works are always being written so it's not there ever gonna be a shortage of roles opening up a that require a specific diverse casting. Depending on how the author/screen writer writes it.

[Mr. Tines]

I bet back when women weren't allowed to professionally act, people would say, "it's not that we aren't hiring women, it's just that we're hiring the best!"

Back then (about 350+ years back in Britain), people were quite candid about not letting lewd and immoral creatures on the stage -- women were forbidden, by law, to perform in the Elizabethan theatre, and the association of "actress" with "whore" continued for a long while after that ban was rescinded.

[Reichu]

I'm pretty sure that'd be relevant, if we we're living in the past when that was a problem.

It's a metaphor. Do I have to spell it out? :p

[Kaminoyouni]

It's a metaphor. Do I have to spell it out? :p

I suppose that just depends on what the metaphor was trying to say, so.. maybe, it felt a bit jab-ish at what I'd said about hiring the best person for the job.

Even though hiring an actor is a bit different then a typical job, which I addressed.

[Bagheera]

I'm pretty sure that'd be relevant, if we we're living in the past when that was a problem.

It's still a problem. That's why conversations like this one exist, and why the Bechdel test is even a thing. I mean, think about it: we have a test to determine whether or not half of the world's population has a presence in film. It says nothing about the quality of said presence, just whether or not it exists. And most modern movies fail. Good, bad, whatever, they mostly fail. A lot of people consider that a problem.

Regarding "best person for the job", here's the thing: there is no such thing. Think quick: who's the better Magneto, Ian McKellen or Michael Fassbender? Both bring different things to the role, and that's true for any role. How about the Kingpin? Vincent D'Onofrio or Michael Clarke Duncan? If you ask around you'll probably find the answer is "depends on who you ask." I mean, if we stuck with "best actor for the job" we never would have gotten Samuel L. Jackson playing Nick Fury, and that would be a crying shame since he did such a good job that decades of comic book history was retconned to reflect it. He just gave us a different vision of the character, and that's something that's possible for any role you care to name.

This doesn't mean any actor can play any role, which is of course absurd. But it does mean that many people can play most roles, which in turn means that using "best actor for the job" as an excuse to not hire women or minorities for parts is kinda bullshit.

[Kaminoyouni]

"best actor for the job" as an excuse to not hire women or minorities for parts is kinda bullshit.

Wow that... that's just.. wow... you honestly believe that's what mean. Even when I FUCKING POINTED OUT THAT HIRING FOR ACTING IS DIFFERENT. This is what I mean when people use diversity as an agenda piece, accusing people of "excuses"

Original works are always being written so it's not like there's ever gonna be a shortage of roles opening up a that require a specific diverse casting. Depending on how the author/screen writer writes it.

With Acting jobs though... eh you should really try to get close to the source material if it's an adaptation (which really is the only place this is really an issue), and not change the character unless it's absolutely positively necessary.

Depending on the what the source material calls for and making compromises where you can, also if I'm not mistaken Nick Fury was changed to look like Samuel L. Jackson in Ultimate Marvel Comics from what I've herd. Wether that was before or after the launch of the MCU, I dunno.

Obviously when you're casting you want to hire a woman for a woman's role or someone of a certain ethnic back ground
to correctly portray a certain ethnically the best, if that's what the role calls for. IE The Best person to fit those roles, get it?

Also Ian McKellen and Michael Fassbender were each hired to play Magneto at different ages. So I don't see how that counts. MCD Was great as Kingpin in Daredevil one of... the only good parts of the flick, and We'll just say that's a compromise the filmmakers made to have a great charismatic villain, eh? I haven't seen the Netflix DD yet but I hear that VD is pretty good.

Another thing is that statement is bullshit in and of itself even when talking about regular jobs, if you're just hiring diversely just for, the sake of hiring diversely. All you're doing is just trying to protect yourself from being judged, and nothing else, Defeating the point of it altogether.

It's still a problem. That's why conversations like this one exist,

Oh really, I wasn't aware women still weren't being allowed to act professionally.

[Bagheera]

Wow that... that's just.. wow... you honestly believe that's what mean. Even when I FUCKING POINTED OUT THAT HIRING FOR ACTING IS DIFFERENT. This is what I mean when people use diversity as an agenda piece, accusing people of "excuses"

Dude, relax. Getting worked up like that isn't gonna lead the conversation anywhere good.

Oh really, I wasn't aware women still weren't being allowed to act professionally.

Plenty aren't. That's the point of the Bechdel test -- it calls attention to the fact that the gender ratio in movies is ridiculously lopsided. There are many reasons for this (and for the fact that it's far more of an issue in movies than it is in TV; see most of the MCU flicks vs. Agents of Shield, for instance), but regardless it is a reality. Most roles in most movies are male, so that naturally reduces opportunities for women in film. It doesn't negate them, but it does mean this is still a problem even today.

[Kaminoyouni]

Dude, relax. Getting worked up like that isn't gonna lead the conversation anywhere good.

Well being that what you said was so far off the mark from what I meant. It's understandable

Plenty aren't.

I don't remember any actual cases when a woman was barred from acting, cause.. she was well, a woman. You're talking about something else.

That's the point of the Bechdel test -- it calls attention to the fact that the gender ratio in movies is ridiculously lopsided.

Bechdel test is if more then two women in a film can talk to each other about something other then a man.

Most roles in most movies are male, so that naturally reduces opportunities for women in film. It doesn't negate them.

Then just wait for more authors or screen writers to make movies with more roles for women? Are we on a time limit for when certain things make progress in film? Just let it happen naturally. If you force it, then you just get stuff like the ghostbusters reboot/remake.

It not anyone fault really if the Marvel films star more men then women, just look at the source material.

[Mr. Tines]

also if I'm not mistaken Nick Fury was changed to look like Samuel L. Jackson in Ultimate Marvel Comics from what I've herd.

This is correct -- the reboot retconned the previous 40-odd years of lore, in a move of Jackson fanboyism first and foremost. While the X-men had their movies, and the Spidey movie was in production, a film with Nick Fury in was still nothing more than an aspiration back in '02.

[Bagheera]

Well being that what you said was so far off the mark from what I meant. It's understandable

No, it's not.

Past that you're missing the point so completely that I don't see the point to continuing the conversation.

[Kaminoyouni]

No, it's not.

Past that you're missing the point so completely that I don't see the point to continuing the conversation.

Bullshit it wasn't. But yeah I'd say it's pretty fair to say this conversation is done, everyone seems equally pissed off enough.

[pwhodges]

Obviously when you're casting you want to hire a woman for a woman's role or someone of a certain ethnic back ground
to correctly portray a certain ethnically the best, if that's what the role calls for. IE The Best person to fit those roles, get it?

So what's "obvious"? Presumably Maxine Peake playing Hamlet would fail your obviousness test (let alone the other roles whose genders were exchanged in that production), or Glenda Jackson as Lear, Helen Mirren as Prospero, and many other such? Let alone actors playing roles that Shakespeare couldn't have imagined people of their ethnicity in.

[Kaminoyouni]

So what's "obvious"? Presumably Maxine Peake playing Hamlet would fail your obviousness test (let alone the other roles whose genders were exchanged in that production), or Glenda Jackson as Lear, Helen Mirren as Prospero, and many other such? Let alone actors playing roles that Shakespeare couldn't have imagined people of their ethnicity in.

Reading a whole post in it's entirety is a pretty obvious thing to do

Depending on the what the source material calls for and making compromises where you can,

[Sachi]

I liked it the first time we agreed this conversation was done. Cool down time for this thread.

[Ray]

Controversy arose when a screenwriter MENTIONED he wanted Leonardo DiCaprio to play the role of the Middle Eastern Poet Rumi.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... writer-fa/

SPOILER: Show

The Social Media and News Networks rather than fact checking, tripped over themselves to be offended. Leo wasn't considering the role, the movie hasn't been greenlit yet, and . . . nobody really knows exactly WHAT race Rumi was.

http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/12/leonardo- ... z4C9vx8BxY


and yeah. I'm back . . . Couldn't stay away.

EDIT:

Zoe Saldana fights back against the SJW's who say she isn't 'black enough' to play Nina.

http://deadline.com/2016/06/zoe-saldana ... 201775157/

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Diversity will never be a thing if certain people aren't considered "black/white enough" to do things. I mean, I understand that Zoe is playing a historical character who looked a specific way, but this isn't a race issue. It really isn't. Zoe is "black enough" to play any black woman she wants to play. The question people are trying to ask without sounding shallow, superficial, or mean-spirited is "Is Zoe 'too pretty' to play Nina?"

Nina was a beautiful woman. Zoe is a pretty woman. They are both "black enough." (Maybe there's a better way to state what I'm thinking, but this is the only way that's coming to me right now.) And all of this judgement on a movie that no one's seen yet is making me sick to my stomach, so I'm bowing out of this particular discussion.

[Ray]

http://collider.com/lone-wolf-and-cub-remake/

The producer for GITS is going to produce a Live Action remake of the Lone Wolf and Cub series of Manga and movies.

Before you break out your pitchforks. The producer has said that he’s looking for a mostly Asian cast at least for the the titular characters in the adaptation, which signals that he’s probably learned his lesson from the Ghost in the Shell whitewashing controversy. Or at least wants to Avoid bad press for the movie.

[Gus Hanson]

IDK where exactly to put this since it covers GitS live-action and whitewashing but here goes. I USED to be of the opinion that all this whitewashing controversy shouldn't take away from the experience of actually watching the talent and judging the performance based off that when the time comes. But now, I think differently. I can't really identify what changed my mind and made me anti-whitewashing but I can say that some of it triggered at the point when I stopped accepting the Matrix trilogy as being groundbreaking when GitS and tons of other prior works preached the same existential dilemnas before.

Besides, I never really liked the choice of ScarJo as Major Motoko Kusanagi and I say the full name because I prefer to label her as intended and not what Hollywood wants with simply the Major. I could also make the case that I tried to accept whitewashing back when The Last Airbender came out and it didn't end well for me.

[Ray]

the whitewashed Death Note movie has officially begun filming.

http://collider.com/death-note-movie-filming/

He casts ALL THREE of the mains with white people and has the gall to call it 'diverse'?


Abandon all hope!