Controversial Anime Opinions

[Dima]

My controversial anime opinion is that AoT isn't that good, and not as controversial opinion is that SAO is a piece of trash.

I thought Cowboy Bebop was kind of boring and uninteresting. I never bothered to finish it.

Puella Magi Madoka Magica has nothing to offer but the plot twists, and was otherwise sterile and un-engaging, to the point of being unfinishably bad.

I also like Gundam ZZ better than Z. Zeta has a good story and great mech fights, but all the characters are so F@#KING annoying! Gundam Seed is the best overall.... I'm going to watch Destiny in January, if I like that one I'll add it to the list.

De faq m8s? I know how it goes (opinions and such) but some of you went too far. I seriously suggest you to give these shows a second view.

Oh well here is my take.

-I consider the original Full Metal Alchemist superior in every way compared to Brotherhood
-Code Geass is the best mecha anime franchise since Gundam. (it really is if we take account the DVD and Blu-Ray sales)

[Xard]

-Code Geass is the best mecha anime franchise since Gundam. (it really is if we take account the DVD and Blu-Ray sales)

How in name of bleeding fuck does DVD and Blu-Ray sales in itself prove series is "best mecha franchise ever" sans Gundam (which incidentally has much bigger total sales so the logic is maintained).

I'm not questioning your opinion but your "it really is if" validation for it is utterly bizarre.

[Guy Nacks]

I don't like Golden Boy, though, which some people seem to. Intimacy with a toilet seat doesn't do it for me.

I have never seen Golden Boy, but from your statement, it strikes me as an absolutely brutal deconstruction of what many a male do when they don't want to masturbate into a sock....taken to the extreme.

[Dima]

Well if it wasn't why so many people bought the DVDs and Blu-Rays anyway? Blind hype for a new IP? It isn't a videogame you know. People could have seen the anime on TV and internet before deciding to buy the copies.

Also Sunrise is introducing a new mecha anime every year for the last 15 years. All bombed except Code Geass.

[Xard]

Well if it wasn't why so many people bought the DVDs and Blu-Rays anyway? Blind hype for a new IP? It isn't a videogame you know. People could have seen the anime on TV and internet before deciding to buy the copies.

All such commercial performance proves is that anime is popular - and in a very qualified sense popular aka popular among subset of Japanese anime fans with dedication and fiscal means to purchase anime series of their liking (thus anime series selling well is no guarantee of how popular acceptance it would win among general public in Japan not to speak of the world as work of genuine merit). Now I'm not some sort of cranky and reality detached elitist who says popular title is just as likely to be irredeemable trash as unpopular one (while general popularity polls rarely coincide with genuine artistic peaks of chosen medium they do fine job in general weeding out appalling trash) but popularity in itself is no proof of superiority.

All popularity proves is that some thing is popular and whatever else may be considered implications of popularity "therefore it is the best" is not logically valid derivation from the premise. There's no law of logic that guarantees correctness of majority opinion (which, as history of democracy well attests, may be terribly wrong indeed).

I mean, original Evangelion series still has the highest total sales of all tv anime series (Golden Eggs excluded but that belongs to different category than Eva for variety of reasons) ever made whereas the monstrous commercial success of Rebuild movies outranks pretty much every anime feature in box office and home video sales not having the golden touch of Ghibli brand (and even here nowhere near all films compete esp. in home video market, Eva has outsold many Ghibli features). So technically speaking the claim Code Geass is best selling mecha anime since Gundam is also wrong but I don't argue Eva is best mecha anime ever simply out of sales its figures.

[Dima]

^
I agree 100% with what you say. I should have wrote ''it is the best and most famous anime since Gundam'' although i had a particular example in my mind when i was writing so i didn't put the famous word.

[Xard]

^
I agree 100% with what you say. I should have wrote ''it is the best and most famous anime since Gundam'' although i had a particular example in my mind when i was writing so i didn't put the famous word.

...but in that case it would be Evangelion which is far more famous and popular among general public than any other "otaku anime"! A many degrees lower but still above Code Geass comes Macross franchise, especially original series and film which were huge hits at the time when there was no specialized market for anime to speak of. The mighty impressive ratings shows like original Gundam and SDF Macross pulled were done at normal broadcasting hours during era when viewership was far less splintered.


Perhaps the best way I can explain this is to repeat a famous joke from 2ch. It goes like this:

What the Average Citizen Knows about Robot Anime Series

Gundam: That story where Amuro and Char fight

Eva: Pachinko

Macross: Singing

Geass: Never heard of it

Votoms: Follows a main character named Chirico Cuvie (Kiriko Kyuubi), a former special forces Armored Trooper pilot and former member of the Red Shoulder Battalion, an elite mecha force used by the Gilgamesh Confederation in its war against the Balarant Union—both interstellar nations within the distant Astragius Galaxy. Gilgamesh and Balarant had until recently been locked in a century-old galactic war whose cause was long ago forgotten. Now, the war is ending and an uneasy truce has settled. Chirico Cuvie is suddenly transferred to a unit engaged in a suspicious mission, unaware that he is aiding to steal secrets from what appears to be his own side. Chirico is betrayed and left behind to die, but he survives, is arrested by the Gilgamesh military as a traitor, and tortured for information on their homeworld. He escapes—triggering a pursuit extending across the entire series, with Chirico hunted by the army and criminals alike as he seeks the truth behind the operation. He is driven to discover the truth of one of the objects he was assigned to retrieve in that operation: A mysterious and beautiful woman who would become his sole clue to unraveling the galactic conspiracy.


*******

Okay I think I've taken relative merit of my tangent/comment to its limit by now so I'll shut up. It's just that it is very easy for us anime fans to overconsider general popularity and fame of this or that anime title that has been blockbuster success in modern era. Genuine example of such was Evangelion in 90s (now living on through NTEs) and Attack on the Titan now (though even Titan falls short of Eva in scale of impact etc.). Hits like Gurren Lagann or Geass are popular and pretty famous but they do not belong to the presumed tapestry of Japanese popular culture knowledge in a way Eva and Gundam do in vague fashion.

[Lavinius]

I think that "Code Geass is very popular" is neither controversial nor an opinion... It was probably the first anime I learned of after I decided to start to watch anime.

*Haruhi Suzumiya is an improbably bland show. Not that it's awful, only that it seems to somehow have absolutely nothing interesting or engaging about it.
*Macross Plus kind of has a not completely reasonable or unified plot.
*25 and 26 are a satisfactory ending in themselves and have some elements which End of Eva lacks and is weaker for it.

That's pretty much all I can think of.

[Dima]

...but in that case it would be Evangelion which is far more famous and popular among general public than any other "otaku anime"! A many degrees lower but still above Code Geass comes Macross franchise, especially original series and film which were huge hits at the time when there was no specialized market for anime to speak of. The mighty impressive ratings shows like original Gundam and SDF Macross pulled were done at normal broadcasting hours during era when viewership was far less splintered.

There is no doubt that Eva and Gundam are the most famous mecha franchise in Japan but personally i am not putting Eva in the same category as Gundam and Code Geass. There are some episodes that the Units dont get screen time at all. I just don't feel so strong the presence of robots in Eva compared to other mecha franchises like Gundam and Code Geass.

Also don't think we have any official numbers for the VHS sales of NGE back then.

[Mr. Tines]

So many of the series being mentioned ITT are ones that I've never felt the inclination to look at, so when people say "X popular show was rubbish", I just nod sagely based on my reading of the teaser summary having been validated.

This one's for Alaska Slim  SPOILER: Show

This just happened to get posted on /a/ today, but I saw it after my previous response

*Akira has some great animation, and it did introduce a lot of Westerners to anime, but the plot isn't that interesting. I'd be fine with never watching it again.

I'll go along with that.

@Dima
I already gave PMMM a second chance, after having bogged down at ep6, coming back after a few months and then ran into the sand with episode 8. This was by no means the first series I've watched after being completely spoiled, but the first where there didn't seem to be anything else going for it but the surprises.

It would be an outrageous generalization from a small sample to also opine that Butch Gen can't write engaging characters (while I could put names to faces, which is more than, say, Shin Sekai Yori managed before I dropped that, I was still in the state of "who are these people and why should I care") and that the Shinbo/SHAFT aesthetic is just ugly people in front of sterile architecture (adding in, for the latter, such *gatari fragments and screen shots as I've also seen). But that sort of thing is what this thread is about, so, ...

[Xard]

Also don't think we have any official numbers for the VHS sales of NGE back then.

Tracking LD, VHS etc. sales of Eva to calculate precise average is challenging (we do know those numbers were staggeringly enormous of course) of course. Then again we don't need to because we can just compare DVD in this DVD/BD era. The sales for pre-DVD era anime tend to wobble a bit due to multitude of formats but when sales for original Gundam series or sales for Evangelion or whatever else popular then-series is considered it is typically (though not always) about DVD sales per se.

Isolating mecha TV series from chart like this covering 1988-2014 releases we get top list like this:


1. 174,354 Neon Genesis Evangelion
2. 100,350 Mobile Suit Gundam
3. 89,395 Mobile Suit Gundam SEED DESTINY
4. 83,383 Mobile Suit Gundam SEED
5. 68,652 Code Geass
6. 61,811 Macross Frontier
7. 60,750 Code Geass R2
8. 58,791 Mobile Suit Z Gundam
9. 50,860 Gunbuster
10. 44,537 Mobile Suit Gundam 00
11. 43,768 Martian Successor Nadesico
12. 40,864 Mobile Suit Gundam W
13. 39,785 Mobile Suit Gundam 00 Second Season


Of course such sale estimates tend to vary a bit but top four series haven't really been challenged and their internal relations have stayed same with original Gundam typically somewhere around 100k and Eva about 70k above it.

Gunbuster's 50,860 for example is DVD/BD figure if I remember correctly, the sales numbers for VHS back then (and those numbers were massive too) are different from this. I also have vague recollection about 0083 supposedly selling around 100k number during its peak popularity but this chart gives 65,025 which I think is about the DVD/BD box-set(s).

In any case we do have numbers for series released in pre-DVD era we can compare directly with sales for modern series. Eva plays the game in wholly other ballpark and if we include films we're talking about millions. (It took Frozen to dethrone 2.22 as all time best selling BD in Japan)

As far as Code Geass's health as franchise it hasn't really kept up. Akito has sold 35k and 32k volumes respectively so far which is great number for OVA release but not really up to heavyweight Gundams (0083, 08th MS team, Stargazer, fucking Unicorn) and it is rather alarming it has sold half less than averages for tv series. So I think Geass if we get more will probably go down the Macross route of strong but nevertheless declining popularity through decades unless revitalized by another huge hit comparable to impact Frontier had on the franchise.

[Dima]

Thanks for posting that list. First i am seeing it. I already explained in an other thread how Sunrise dropped the ball with Code Geass. IMO the best thing they could have done after R2 was a Tv series again but covering a whole other era with new characters and keeping only the mechas and the geass power.

The numbers of Akito are no bad and there are some things to consider. After some days from the limited screening in cinemas it was available on PSN for download. This means that there is no need to wait 3 months for a retail release.

After Akito they really have two options. Or make a TV series based on the manga OZ the Reflection or revive that Code Geass Movie project in a similar manner to Rebuild of Evangelion. 3 or 4 movies following Lelouch and his rebelion but in an alternative reality in order to change drastically the story from the TV series and make things interesting again.

[Alaska Slim]

I thought Cowboy Bebop was kind of boring and uninteresting.

So did I initially, for like two years, but I eventfully gave into peer pressure. BP

It's an acquired taste now, sort of like this Naruto op that I swore at first would make my ears bleed.


Btw: Digimon is better than Pokemon.

That's right, you poketards can kiss my MGmon's shiny metal ass attack.

[Fireball]

I have never seen Golden Boy, but from your statement, it strikes me as an absolutely brutal deconstruction of what many a male do when they don't want to masturbate into a sock....taken to the extreme.

It's just about a dude and his thirst for toilet water.

[Giji Shinka]

Digimon is better than Pokemon.

100% truth.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

I really enjoyed Future Diary. Fight me!

[Souther]

Here's a few controversial opinions:

-Planetes proves that making faithful adaptations isn't necessary.
-Higurashi Kai was better than the first Higurashi series.
-Armored Trooper Votoms did not need any of its sequels.
-Code Geass makes a lot of sense when analyzed thematically.
-Arion was better at representing Greek mythology than Saint Seiya

As far as Code Geass's health as franchise it hasn't really kept up. Akito has sold 35k and 32k volumes respectively so far which is great number for OVA release but not really up to heavyweight Gundams (0083, 08th MS team, Stargazer, fucking Unicorn) and it is rather alarming it has sold half less than averages for tv series. So I think Geass if we get more will probably go down the Macross route of strong but nevertheless declining popularity through decades unless revitalized by another huge hit comparable to impact Frontier had on the franchise.

Gundam as a whole is playing a completely different ballgame, especially when it comes to nostalgia-based projects like Gundam Unicorn that are literally appealing to multiple generations of older fans created over decades full of regular animated productions. The potential audience for classic-style Gundam is at least an order of magnitude greater. You could say Code Geass and Gundam 00 were relatively similar in their appeal levels at the time, but that's only the tip of the iceberg as far as Sunrise's flagship property is concerned.

That's why I agree with you about Code Geass being closer to Macross than Gundam in the grand scheme of things. It's a very successful property, but not a ground-breaking one in terms of cultural impact. For that same reason, I don't think those OVA results are alarming or unhealthy. In fact, I'd say it is surprising in a positive sense, considering how long the wait has been between each Akito chapter, that they're even reaching 30,000 units per volume. Thus I think Dima has a point, in the sense Code Geass does need another TV series or a full-length movie in order to see sales climb back to its previous heights and beyond.

[Guy Nacks]

It's just about a dude and his thirst for toilet water.

I'm no piss fetishist by any means, but that has to be one of the ultimate forms of recycling.

[Dima]

@Dima
I already gave PMMM a second chance, after having bogged down at ep6, coming back after a few months and then ran into the sand with episode 8. This was by no means the first series I've watched after being completely spoiled, but the first where there didn't seem to be anything else going for it but the surprises.

There are some series that can break the experience for you if you being spoiled. Especially for shows like Madoka where it heavenly depends on story. Of course there is the possibility that you still wouldn't like the series even if you weren't spoiled.

Btw: Digimon is better than Pokemon.

First season of Digimon was pretty good, i have to admit.

That's why I agree with you about Code Geass being closer to Macross than Gundam in the grand scheme of things. It's a very successful property, but not a ground-breaking one in terms of cultural impact. For that same reason, I don't think those OVA results are alarming or unhealthy. In fact, I'd say it is surprising in a positive sense, considering how long the wait has been between each Akito chapter, that they're even reaching 30,000 units per volume. Thus I think Dima has a point, in the sense Code Geass does need another TV series or a full-length movie in order to see sales climb back to its previous heights and beyond.

I remember that back when Code Geass was airing in Japan it was a pretty big deal. Especially after the pause and the anticipation for the last two episodes, the hype was huge. Everybody was talking and speculating about it. As i said some posts back the OVA results are very good considering the following

-Huge gap between R2 and Akito
-Big gap between each Akito chapter
-Digital sales. Every OVA was available for download on Playstation network a week after the theatrical screening

It will be interesting to see the sales now that Lelouch and Suzaku are back.

[Shamsiel-kun]

Girls Und Panzers doesn't do armored warfare right. In the first 30 seconds it committed the same sin it took Valkyria Chronicles nearly an episode to make.

Out of this and a few real-world examples, there's a rule of thumb that I've come to. Japan + tanks = fail. They were made for bipedal robots, and should stick to what they know.

It's a parody of martial arts. It's not about war. Also, it plays in a world where tankettes were used for racing. Who knows what kind of highly tuned engines hide under that armor?

The original Gundam series are boring and not particularly brilliant. The compilation movies made me want to sleep at times. Compare to this Gundam Seed, and Kira is vastly more amusing than Amuro ever was. Even in Seed Destiny, even though Shinn is a pain in the ass and highly dislikable. Mobile Suit Gundam is only popular because people's memory of it is colored by the anime being a series they watched as a kid, just like Transformers Generation 1 is really quite horrible when you watch it again as an adult.