Any consensus as to why Kaworu was at the patch?

[AuraTwilight]

Considering the implication that Kaworu was artificially made and factors into Gendo's/Seele's/Whoever's plans perfectly like a chump, could he have been programmed with a Shinji-obsession to begin with?

[ElMariachi]

Considering the implication that Kaworu was artificially made and factors into Gendo's/Seele's/Whoever's plans perfectly like a chump, could he have been programmed with a Shinji-obsession to begin with?

Honestly that would be even more horrible for Shinji: that would be that even that, even the last friend he had in this new and completely insane world where everyone seemingly turned against him, was just a fabrication from his father to manipulate him into doing his biding.

Damn, Shinji will go completely fucknut, he'll destroy the whole planet without leaving an exit door like in EoE if that's the case!

[AuraTwilight]

Honestly that would be even more horrible for Shinji: that would be that even that, even the last friend he had in this new and completely insane where everyone seemingly turned against him, was just a fabrication from his father to manipulate him into doing his biding.

Damn, Shinji will go completely fucknut, he'll destroy the whole planet without leaving an exit door like in EoE if that's the case!

So in other words it is the most LIKELY scenario.

[KingXanaduu]

^

.....Dude, don't do that, we already have ONE "Stillborn" here, we don't need another.

[Reichu]

.....Dude, don't do that, we already have ONE "Stillborn" here, we don't need another.

That scenario wasn't outlandishly pessimistic enough to qualify for Stillborn Tier.

[unitM]

Or maybe he was just taking a stroll, and the camera showed us the moment he was passing through the melon patch, for extra drama about everything we knew that has been destroyed.

I know you go back to that point a lot, but I find the fact that Kaworu was at the exact same patch as Kaji, pulling a Kaji pose, and playing a very similar role as Kaji in relations to Shinji a little more than a coincidence.

[ElMariachi]

That scenario wasn't outlandishly pessimistic enough to qualify for Stillborn Tier.

Indeed, it's closer to Ray Tier. joking, no offense Ray!

I know you go back to that point a lot, but I find the fact that Kaworu was at the exact same patch as Kaji, pulling a Kaji pose, and playing a very similar role as Kaji in relations to Shinji a little more than a coincidence.

I really don't see Kaji and Kaworu's relationship toward Shinji as similar, the former acts like a father figure, the later like a messianic figure (with a dose of Ho Yay thrown into the mix!)

[Reichu]

Kaworu and Kaji have some subtle mirroring going on in the original series, but Kaji is such a non-presence in ENT that I wouldn't assume that it carries over.

[unitM]

Reichu: However, for whatever on-screen cuts he does get in NTE, he serves very particular and important roles. One of these roles is mildly-parental one when he thrusts the responsibility of Misato onto him.

ElMariachi: Psychology doesn't differentiate between the father figure and the messianic ones at the level of people talking with each other. Both are parental positions. In the books of transactional analysis, there are 2 different types of parental roles: the critical parent and the warm one. Gendou, for example, forms the ultimate critical parent for Shinji, not supplicating at all to his demands and expecting the world from him. Kaji, for the short duration we see him, plays a warm and nurturing position with Shinji. Because this scene was also an intimate one, Kaji also shared a deep fear he has with Shinji, by placing(or asking to share) the role of protecting Misato.

Kaworu played very similar roles as well. The "messianic figure" archetype is a warm parental one. "I am god, and I will share god's grace with you" was the position Kaworu played from(as opposed to "I am god, and to get closer to me, you need to follow my rules," which would be a critical parent ego). Kaworu also shared an intimate scene with Shinji when they were out looking at the stars and playing piano.

Both characters acted as warm fathering role models at their own times, and each exchanged responsibilities with Shinji in one way or another. I think this connection is really obvious if you simply ask yourself how each of them behaved towards
Shini.

[ElMariachi]

^
Okay, I see your point, still I don't see a symbol of a thematic connection between Kaworu and Kaji from a scene that lasted a few seconds and was deemed so unimportant that it was cut from the TV airing to save screentime costs.

Also, I still have problems setting Kaworu and Kaji in an equal positions as mentors for Shinji, especially since the former is far younger looking and the possibility he gave off that he was partially BSing Shinji to make him agree to his plan (but I admit that's just my personal opinion), while the latter is an adult both mentally and physically and was completely trustful without any ambiguity or doubt.

[unitM]

^
Okay, I see your point, still I don't see a symbol of a thematic connection between Kaworu and Kaji from a scene that lasted a few seconds and was deemed so unimportant that it was cut from the TV airing to save screentime costs.

Also, I still have problems setting Kaworu and Kaji in an equal positions as mentors for Shinji, especially since the former is far younger looking and the possibility he gave off that he was partially BSing Shinji to make him agree to his plan (but I admit that's just my personal opinion), while the latter is an adult both mentally and physically and was completely trustful without any ambiguity or doubt.

Woah woah woah, who said anything about an equal position? Kaji is some guy who is aware of critical and confidential information related to the hidden plots of Evangelion. Kaworu is a hidden plot of Evangelion! Big difference.

However, consider the following: how many people have actually taken the time to mentor Shinji? We have

• Misato, who has taken a caregiving responsibility towards Shinji, through housing and coaching,
  
• Kaji, who took some time off work to teach Shinji about the other beauties of life(such as watering plants), and
  
• Kaworu, who has likely been assigned a responsibility to watch over Shinji, as well as to lead Shinji in a certain direction(down through level EEE).

I know there's a lot of trust in Kaji. However, there are some things to consider about him too:

• He stole the Key of Nez from the base with delivery to Gendou

Despite being aware of instrumentality and SEELE's plans, Kaji is in part responsible for pushing apocalyptic plans forward. He steals a very important piece of the puzzle from a base and then has it successfully blown up. During all this, we aren't told his motivations for during so, but we do see him express a bit of disdain towards other events in the DSS timeline. He is certainly trustworthy on screen but I don't know how far that really carries off-screen, considering he's willing to be a part of the process of the end of the world.

• He is also indirectly responsible for the detonation of the Provisional Unit under the basis that he was aware it was going to happen and allowed it to

Another question I have to ask you is, is the fact that a scene was cut from the TV airing really relevant to the importance of the scene? See: NGE DX - several things were cut from the director's edition, but what was cut was pretty important(Gendou's adam hand, angel tower, Rei communicating with angels, Asuka's mindfuck, etc.)

I agree, there might not be a very strong connection though.

[ElMariachi]

About Kaji, take in account that everything he did, even taking part in the apocalypse plan, was to get close to Gendo and SEELE and spy on them, and probably to later bring them down.
Sure it's implied he was the one behind the sabotage of EVA-05, but it's also strongly implied that he warned Mari beforehand so she could escape in time, hell it's even strongly implied (and confirmed in a relationship chart in an official magazine) that they are working together.

Also, Kaji didn't shared important information about the conspiracy with Shinji simply because it didn't concerned him and would endanger him: the pilots take care of the Angels, and he and his mysterious backers take care of Gendo and SEELE, while on the other hand Kaworu told Shinji information that did concerned him directly (what happened while he was rescuing Rei) but are of very dubious reliability at best upon closer inspection.
Now sure, Kaworu did taught some life lessons to Shinji, like the importance to continue to try until you're satisfied with the result or how you should never lose hope, but it doesn't change the fact that there's part of Kaworu's teaching that raise suspicion.

[unitM]

About Kaji, take in account that everything he did, even taking part in the apocalypse plan, was to get close to Gendo and SEELE and spy on them, and probably to later bring them down.

So you think Kaji handed Gendou the Key to the end of the world in order to get closer to SEELE? I'm not too sure if Machiavelli would agree with you there.

Sure it's implied he was the one behind the sabotage of EVA-05, but it's also strongly implied that he warned Mari beforehand so she could escape in time, hell it's even strongly implied (and confirmed in a relationship chart in an official magazine) that they are working together.

The implications aren't what I'm targeting though. The fact is, Kaji knew about the plans and, though he didn't necessarily have a direct influence over them, he certainly didn't put up any resistance towards them. He stole the key and fled. In this sense, he aided the apocalypse.

Also, Kaji didn't shared important information about the conspiracy with Shinji simply because it didn't concerned him and would endanger him: the pilots take care of the Angels, and he and his mysterious backers take care of Gendo and SEELE, while on the other hand Kaworu told Shinji information that did concerned him directly (what happened while he was rescuing Rei) but are of very dubious reliability at best upon closer inspection.
Now sure, Kaworu did taught some life lessons to Shinji, like the importance to continue to try until you're satisfied with the result or how you should never lose hope, but it doesn't change the fact that there's part of Kaworu's teaching that raise suspicion.

I understand where you're coming from, and Kaworu is definitely a suspicious character. But our suspicions are aside because they are outside our scope of conversation. I agree, both Kaji and Kaworu played different roles in Shinji's mentorship. However, what I am arguing is that there are strong similarities too. I'm not placing judgment on Kaworu or Kaji's role in teaching Shinji here. That's not my point at all. What my point is, is that these are 2 characters, out of a very select cast(3 in total) that spent time to teach Shinji something. Good or bad, the point is, they both played very similar roles.

[Sachi]

So you think Kaji handed Gendou the Key to the end of the world in order to get closer to SEELE? I'm not too sure if Machiavelli would agree with you there.

That raises a question, which may or may not be worth another discussion: is Kaji playing both Nerv and Seele this time in the NTE universe? In NGE it was clear that he was helping each side (the two biggest examples being the retrieval of Adam for Nerv, and then the kidnapping of Fuyu for Seele). However in NTE, we've only seen him deliver the Key of Neb to Nerv so that he can more closely spy on Gendo; I don't think he's ever implied to be working for Seele as he was in NGE.

[ElMariachi]

So you think Kaji handed Gendou the Key to the end of the world in order to get closer to SEELE? I'm not too sure if Machiavelli would agree with you there.

He would get closer to Gendo's inner circle, who is himself very close to SEELE's inner circle, so by spying Gendo he can also gather information on SEELE.

@Sachi: Since Kaji was shown to work in a base whose walls were littered with SEELE's logo, and that he had access to the 3rd Angel experimentation site and the Key of N, both two very important resources for SEELE, it stands to reason that Kaji was indeed working for SEELE.

[unitM]

He would get closer to Gendo's inner circle, who is himself very close to SEELE's inner circle, so by spying Gendo he can also gather information on SEELE.

@Sachi: Since Kaji was shown to work in a base whose walls were littered with SEELE's logo, and that he had access to the 3rd Angel experimentation site and the Key of N, both two very important resources for SEELE, it stands to reason that Kaji was indeed working for SEELE.

Right. I understand what you're saying. I'm just not sure how responsible Kaji's choice was. Again, trust from SEELE/NERV vs. exchanging the key to the end of human civilizations.

[ElMariachi]

Well, SEELE and Gendo are both so paranoid that it was probably the only way to get in their inner circle without an infiltration that would last decades. (that he didn't had)

[unitM]

Well, SEELE and Gendo are both so paranoid that it was probably the only way to get in their inner circle without an infiltration that would last decades. (that he didn't had)

How do we even know that was Kaji's motivation? We don't even have sufficient evidence to say that he gained anything from SEELE/Gendou through the process of smuggling the key. Surely if he always had access to Bethany Base, which seemed the case, since he was so comfortable with talking about the Angel experimentation and with flying the coop so gracefully, he could have visited any time. Nowhere is it suggested that Kaji got any sort of knowledge from smuggling the key back to Gendou. He just drops it off and leaves.

If anything, there's probably a better chance that Kaji already knew the scenario, and that he did something to the key that Gendou now has. Fuyutsuki questions Kaji's trust at the end of the scene, and honestly, there was more than enough time for Kaji to tamper with the key. If he knew about the key's existence(his line "the key to instrumentality" hints at his knowledge of SEELE's plans), then he might have some motivation, perhaps to save Misato or ensure his own protection or something, to tamper with it.

[ElMariachi]

^
Sure, Kaji had access to Bethany Base, but what he wanted was to have official access to the Geofront and Gendo's inner circle to spy on him (and SEELE by proxy), since they are the ones that know all the details of the HIP.
And indeed we do see him spying on Gendo and Fuyutsuki:
[wkimg:tbmgfpyg]File:Eva2-22 C0820 spyin.jpg[/wkimg:tbmgfpyg]

[unitM]

It's pretty cool that you took that out of that scene. I hadn't considered that, to be honest, but it isn't far-fetched. Up until now, I didn't take it that he was spying on Gendou but just spying in general. I don't think there's anything in that scene that suggests that his thoughts are directly targeting Gendou or SEELE. "What if the Eva blew up on purpose" is sort of just general SDSS knowledge. Yes, I can see that Kaji is suspicious, but that doesn't necessary say that he's suspicious towards Gendou's or SEELE's motivations.