Episode 19 / Toji's "dream"

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Episode 19 / Toji's "dream"

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Postby Compiling_Autumn » Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:59 pm

So near the beginning of Episode 19, Toji lies in the hospital bed. He sees Shinji in the bed next to his. Toji passes out and dreams that he is on the Hell Train. He sees Rei and Shinji talking on the train, and they discuss what Shinji has done, how he feels about his father, what his father has done, etc.

As far as I can tell, there's no way that Toji could have had foreknowledge of things being discussed on that train (I doubt that Toji even knows about how Shinji feels about his father's praise), and its odd that the Hell Train would even manifest in his dream. This leaves me with 2 questions:

1. Why is Toji hearing about these things in his dream? Is there some kind of acting force or connection that I am unaware of that is telling him this or is he just coincidentally dreaming up a scenario that happens to fit right in with Shinji's turmoil?

2. Why are we shown this as Toji's dream and not Shinji's? The sequence seems like it would make perfect sense as Shinji's dream instead. Why did Anno chose to have this scene in Toji's mind?

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Postby robersora » Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:56 am

Maybe LCL connects the thoughts of the pilots somehow.
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Postby The Eva Monkey » Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:09 am

I've always interpreted that scene as being from Touji's perspective. Yeah, it looks like it's in "the crazy room", but it's actually taking place, in reality, Rei is visiting Shinji in the hospital, but Touji is kind of drugged up, so the environment looks different.

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Postby Kendrix » Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:56 am

That was always one of the more mysterious scenes that really served a more atmospheric/abstract purpose, the point being in how it looks and what the two are exchanging, but some ppl have gone an extrapolated the wildest things from this alone, like 'Rei is telepathic', or 'those are actually Shinji & Rei from instrumentality, reliving the rest of the story in flashback or flash-forward'
If you believe shared angel headspace, it could be something similar, only with EVAs, although the most honest conclusion might be that we don't really know.

Usually, the train seems to be strictly Shinji's headspace/"mental world", given that it seems based off the one Gendo put him in as a kid or the one he rode around in in episode 4.
What we see here could be everything from an aesthetic choice, or a vital clue to the place's true nature.


Personally, it might've something to do with Bardiel seeping it's slimy corruption into EVA 01 while it was strangling it, or at least the fact that both Shinji and Touji had just been removed from their EVAs.

EVAs commonly trigger visions, regardless of what those visions are.

In any case, the scene's purpose in the narrative is to establish/vocally present some of Shinji's turmoil/thoughts about the Bardiel fiasco to us, and I really don't want to take away from that by turning it into some 'magic' event on vague premises.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:02 pm

Related thread -- http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/2123/Why-Could-Toji-See-Shinjis-Dream/
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Postby SoryuUberAlles » Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:07 pm

Also related thread - http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/15800/Is-Rei-Lilith-dead-after-EoE/?

Mostly because it raises the other theory some of use were playing with linking it to the Bookend Reis -
View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote:Also wasn't there a part during Toji's hospitalization that he saw a vision of Shinji talking to Rei in a train scene....and current Rei very clearly had no idea any of that was happening?

Like if nothing else that's pretty much solid evidence of a Rei-Entity that isn't Current Rei is doing shenanigans.
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Postby BC Baron » Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:42 pm

I didn't get a chance to look through the other threads, but when I first saw the scene in question, I figured that it had to do with some kind of residual subconscious memories/insight caused by Bardiel's possession of Unit-03/Touji.

IIRC during the fight against Unit-03 (re-classified as the 13th Angel) Bardiel briefly invaded/attempted to infect both Unit-00 (before its arm was severed) and then Unit-01 (before the dummy plug was activated).

Given how the fifteenth and sixteenth angels were later shown to have made contact with the minds of Asuka and Rei respectively (and I suppose you could even argue that the twelfth/Sea of Dirac angel was trying to accomplish the same thing with Shinji), I guess I assumed that Bardiel had for just a moment managed to link the minds of Shinji and Rei with that of Touji, and his "train of thought" dream sequence while in NERV's sickbay was a reflection of that temporary connection (even if he didn't really remember or understand what was happening).
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:24 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:That was always one of the more mysterious scenes that really served a more atmospheric/abstract purpose, the point being in how it looks and what the two are exchanging, but some ppl have gone an extrapolated the wildest things from this alone, like 'Rei is telepathic'

Being the "some ppl" in question here, I feel compelled to defend this interpretation of Touji's hallucination.

To begin, it's important to acknowledge The Eva Monkey's point: Touji could simply be hallucinating proper and simply overhearing Rei and Shinji's conversation as they sit across from him in the hospital ward. This is the simplest explanation. However, it does not address the Compiling Autumn's original question about why Touji would be seeing the Hell Train.

Another subtle assumption of the straight hallucination interpretation is that, since Touji is overhearing them, Rei has visited Shinji in the hospital room and is speaking with him about his Father there. Not only is it unlikely that Rei and Shinji would be afforded this luxury at such a time, and less so that they would have such a frank conversation while conscious, there is in fact evidence that Rei never went into the room in the first place.

We need to go back to the conversation between Asuka and Rei, just prior to the haulluciation scene. This cuts quickly in from the previous Misato, Ritsuko conversation, but there is a little misdirection involved.

Ep 19 Topics of Conversation  SPOILER: Show



[wkimg]File:19_C029.jpg[/wkimg]

Misato: So what happened to Shinji?
Ritsuko: I understand that they opened the escape hatch with a laser cutter,and removed him forcibly.
Misato: That's just wonderful.
This time...


[wkimg]File:19_C030.jpg[/wkimg][wkimg]File:19_C031.jpg[/wkimg]
Asuka: It might really be over. I'll bet that idiot won't recover from this.

Rei: How is Ikari?

[wkimg]File:19_C033b.jpg[/wkimg]
Asuka: He wasn't injured, so he ought to be okay.




Note the misdirection here that occurs during the scene transition. Misato and Ritsuko are talking about Shinji; however, Asuka is initially speaking about Touji, here "He won't recover" referring to the extent of his injuries. Rei moves the topic on to Shinji by asking "How is Ikari", who in Asuka's eyes by contrast "ought to be OK".

So, Asuka has visited the hospital room, seen both Shinji and Touji, and is speaking with Rei about them. While it occurs to me that Asuka-Touji shippers could potentially read quite a lot into Asuka's words and faraway gaze here, that's not what I want to focus on. What is important here is that Rei is questioning Asuka on Shinji's condition, despite obviously being capable of visting the hospital room herself.

Given how frosty their last conversation in #16 was, it's notable that Rei would elect to speak with the (albeit sober) Asuka instead of just seeing Shinji for herself. I think this goes back to the Rei's dislike of blood, or possibly her reluctance to see Touji's injuries. In whatever case, the conversation shows us that Rei has not yet been in the room, and doesn't appear to want to go herself.

And next, we have what should be regarded as the smoking gun.



Ep19 Dreaming  SPOILER: Show


[wkimg]File:19_C034.jpg[/wkimg] [wkimg]File:19_C035b.jpg[/wkimg]
Asuka:He's probably dreaming away.
Rei: Dreaming?
Asuka: Yeah. Don't tell me you don't dream?

[wkimg]File:19_C036a.jpg[/wkimg][wkimg]File:19_C036c.jpg[/wkimg]

It's very subtle, but Rei actually raises her head slightly and looks over at Asuka at the mention of Shinji's dreaming. This along with her question reveals her sudden interest in this information. While she does not respond to Asuka's question, her silent look away suggests she's contemplating this. My interpretation of this is that Asuka's mention of dreaming has given Rei an idea, one that she will act on in place of entering the hospital room.

Rei's lack of response also leaves a door open here. Does Rei dream, or not dream, or dream in a different way? Either way, the topic of Rei's dreams has been deliberately raised almost immediately before the coming hallucination.
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:16 am

In the next scene, were are directly shown Shinji and Touji's proximity in their hospital room. The pieces are being shown in place
Ep 19: Touji's location  SPOILER: Show


Toji:Shinji...
Why's he lyin' here next to me?

[wkimg]File:19_C037b.jpg[/wkimg][wkimg]File:19_C037c.jpg[/wkimg]
[wkimg]File:19_C038b.jpg[/wkimg]
[wkimg]File:19_C039.jpg[/wkimg] [wkimg]File:19_C041c.jpg[/wkimg]
Where am I?
In the same hospital as my sister?




Note that we are being shown things here from Toji's Point of View. This will continue into the hallucination itself. Note also that the hallucination is transitioned into via a "dream fade out". We are being told that Toji is unconscious during what follows.

Now we enter the hallucination. Note there is a train siren transition here, similar to the one in Shinji's conversation with Leilel in #16.

Ep 19: Touji's Hallucination  SPOILER: Show


[wkimg]File:19_C042b.jpg[/wkimg][wkimg]File:19_C042c.jpg[/wkimg]
[wkimg]File:19_C043a.jpg[/wkimg][wkimg]File:19_C043c.jpg[/wkimg]
[wkimg]File:19_C044b.jpg[/wkimg]
[wkimg]File:19_C045a.jpg[/wkimg]
Toji: Hey, isn't that Shinji and Ayanami?



Note that this section of the hallucination is again from Toji's point of view; you can even see this arm in the second to last image above. Toji's is seeing and hearing the conversation which takes place.

Most critically, Toji is seeing the Hell Train. This Train is seen in #16, here in #19, in #26', and also now twice in Rebuild. The Train is always associated with Shinji and as mentioned by Kendrix above is widely interpreted as a mental construct or meeting place where Shinji mentall/psychically/syncs with other minds. (The interpretation that this train is based on a real event in Shinji's life is speculative.). The Hell-Train is Shinji's "Private hell".

The key point here is that Toji really is seeing all this, seeing a mental construct he could not possible have prior knowledge of. This is the most critical piece of evidence showing that we are not seeing a simple trick of Toji's mind. He is witnessing a kind of psychic event, a conversation with Rei, taking place in Shinji's mind.

This is all aside from the nature of the conversation itself. Not only would Toji have little knowledge of what they are speaking about, he clearly says so after they are finished.

Ep 19: Hallucination Conversation  SPOILER: Show



[wkimg]File:19_C046b.jpg[/wkimg]
Rei: Ikari, why did you do that?
Shinji: Because I couldn't forgive my father. He betrayed me.
I was finally able to have a comfortable conversation with my father, but he won't try to understand my feelings at all!
Rei: Did you try to understand your father's feelings?
Shinji: I tried.
Rei: Why don't you try to understand him?
Shinji: I said I tried!
Rei: And that's how you run away from unpleasantness.
Shinji: What's wrong with that?! What's wrong with running away from unpleasantness?!
[wkimg]File:19_C052b.jpg[/wkimg]


Toji: What are those two arguin' about?
[wkimg]File:19_C053b.jpg[/wkimg] [wkimg]File:19_C053c.jpg[/wkimg]



Note that the conversation ends, as they usually do, after Shinji curls up and throws a fit.


As I've mentioned before, another key aspect of all of this is that throughout the conversation Toji is present, but in an adjoining car. This is a very subtle, yet powerful visual clue. Touji is within the dream, yet is an isolated onlooker, behind a clearly defined boundary. He does not enter the carraige, does not speak, but only overhears what is going on inside Shinji's head. Both Shinji and more importantly Rei are seemingly unaware of his presence.

As Toji wakes up, we again have a Toji Point of View cut, emphasising that everything we see is taken from his perspective. It's worth noting that Toji also has a distorted sense of time on waking up, which would support a pure hallucination theory.
Ep #19: Toji's wakes  SPOILER: Show


[wkimg]File:19_C054c.jpg[/wkimg] [wkimg]File:19_C054d.jpg[/wkimg] [wkimg]File:19_C054e.jpg[/wkimg]
Toji: Well, looks like I'm still alive. What the heck? I thought Shinji was here.
Was I just dreamin'?

Hikari: I heard Ikari was discharged yesterday.
You've slept for three days, Suzuhara.

[wkimg]File:19_C057.jpg[/wkimg]

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:39 am

My interpretation of the above sequences is that Toji has inexperienced a kind of Psychic overbroadcast from Rei as she converses with a sleeping Shinji, inside Shinji's own mind. The key piece of evidence is Toji's being inside the Hell Train, something he needs access to Shinji's mind in order to see.

We don't have evidence that Toji's time in Bardiel has given him such abilities or insight, but we do have a scene immediately prior with raises the mysterious nature of Rei's dreams, just before we see her in a dream which Toji could not possibly have by himself.

Both of the Angels Leilel and Arael communicate with humans in a similar manner, and Armisael is also shown doing so with Rei. To a lesser extent, even Eva-01 communicates with Rei in a similar fashion in #14. As an angel, Rei's ability to communicate like this has precedent, and neatly explains why Toji's sees what he sees here.

Finally, it's worth noting that Rei's ability to communicate with a dreaming Shinji appears again in NTE Rebuild. In 1.11, Rei appears and converses with Shinji in the Helltrain, and is revealed to be by his bedside when he wakes.
[wkimg:15fqxwoy]File:R1-11 C1324.jpg[/wkimg:15fqxwoy] [wkimg:15fqxwoy]File:R1-11 C1342 b.jpg[/wkimg:15fqxwoy]

And in 2.22, Rei again appears in Shinji's dream, where he (mentally) abandons the SDAT Player. Later, Rei is seen searching for and finding the SDAT which Shinji did end up (physically) throwing away.
[wkimg:15fqxwoy]File:R2-22 C1308G.jpg[/wkimg:15fqxwoy] [wkimg:15fqxwoy]File:R2-22 C1363.jpg[/wkimg:15fqxwoy] [wkimg:15fqxwoy]File:R2-22 C1364.jpg[/wkimg:15fqxwoy]

Admittedly, these are instances from Rebuild and not NGE proper, but they do illustrate the basic idea of Rei's ability to communicate with Shinji inside the Hell Train. In NGE itself, outside of Instrumentality, this is actually only ever shown in Toji's hallucination. That's why its interpretation is so critical. If it really is something "psychic" or "synch-ic", then it's a huge hint towards the nature and abilites of Rei in NGE.
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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:54 am

^
Conclusion: Rei is such a creepy stalker! :lol:

More seriously, awesome job OMF, about the Rebuild, Rei having psychic powers could explain the mysterious disembodied voice Shinji hears in 3.0 just before calling for Rei (triggering Mark.09's appearance)
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:52 am

Interesting thoughts but why not Hell Train/Quantum Rei being Rei 3-Lilith as the common line of thinking goes?

About Eva NTE: Don't forget in 1.11 we hear/see Rei after Yui's words in the first Hell Train dream ("Ayanami Shinji, Ikari Rei", creepy looking Rei, etc).
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Postby Monk Ed » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:06 am

Stealing this for my fic.

Fantastic job, OMF. Now all of a sudden I'm back into all this Discussion shit. You've made it interesting again. And just today I was wondering if I'd ever find that spark again, after everything I've been through lately changing my life priorities.

One question, though: Why did you even mention that bit of (alleged) "misdirection"? Even if Asuka really was talking about Shinji when she said "that idiot won't recover" (and I think she was, if only because any misdirection here seems completely pointless), I don't see how it would affect the rest of the analysis or what it has to do with the topic at all.
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Postby NemZ » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:06 am

I agree it's most likely Toji is just somehow caught in the effect, but I think it's more plausible that the Rei in the train is UbeRei, the post-instrumentality ascended being who exists outside the bounds of space and time, and whom is just taking the opportunity to check in and try and understand Shinji better... the very thing she wonders at his inability to do with Gendo. Note that Shinji doesn't show any sign that he remembers any of this, so it's possible she's been doing these visits now and then for the entire length of the show.
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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:10 am

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:About Eva NTE: Don't forget in 1.11 we hear/see Rei after Yui's words in the first Hell Train dream ("Ayanami Shinji, Ikari Rei", creepy looking Rei, etc).

Maybe after briefly seeing the Commander's son and how he volunteered to pilot in her place, she wanted to know more about him and subconsciously (or not) psychically broadcasted herself in Shinji's dream, but she didn't controlled that ability very well due to her wounds and the painkillers she was probably being administrated, and BAM!, creepy looking Rei. The next Hell Train scenes have Rei back in peak physical condition, so she control that ability much better, hence why she can clearly appear and communicate with Shinji.

Now that makes me curious to see what's happening in Shinji's subconscious in the end of 3.0: maybe while Asuka drags him across the red desert, we'll get another Hell Train scene, maybe warped to fit with Shinji's mind (like the ambient light being blood red instead of orange for example), and where we'll have a "return" of Rei II to converse with Shinji. Although it would be interesting if instead of Rei we have Mari in there to kick him out of his funk and back into the real world, because the Princess needs all the help she can out there! That would nicely tie with her parting words at the end of 3.0 and also a great opportunity to have a true conversation between the two.
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:24 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:More seriously, awesome job OMF, about the Rebuild, Rei having psychic powers could explain the mysterious disembodied voice Shinji hears in 3.0 just before calling for Rei (triggering Mark.09's appearance)

Excellent point. I forgot to mention this incident. It's actually very important as it provides fairly conclusive evidence that Rei gains information from conversations in the Helltrain. In other words that they are actually happenning on a conscious level for her. Again, this is a Rebuild reference, but I feel that the basic idea of Rei's ability to communicate with dreamers is present in NGE, and is simply being revisited in a slightly stronger way in Rebuild.


View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:One question, though: Why did you even mention that bit of (alleged) "misdirection"? Even if Asuka really was talking about Shinji when she said "that idiot won't recover" (and I think she was, if only because any misdirection here seems completely pointless), I don't see how it would affect the rest of the analysis or what it has to do with the topic at all.

I mentioned it for two reasons: Firstly, I genuinely do think that Asuka is referring Touji here, and that her words and reaction is worth pointing out for Touji-Asuka shippers. Note that this shipping is not as wild as it seems, as if I recall correctly, the alternative live action sequence in EoE actually had Asuka and Toji in a relationship.

Secondly, the misdirection is a difficult and confusing one which needs to be cleared up. Asuka's words and Rei's question don't make sense if she was originally referring to Shinji, and clarifying the context of their conversation clears up that Rei has not gone into the hospital room yet. We can infer that Rei does not want to go in, which again supports the idea of her using "psychic" communication instead.

Also, apologies for not keeping up your interest over the last two weeks.

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Note that Shinji doesn't show any sign that he remembers any of this, so it's possible she's been doing these visits now and then for the entire length of the show.

An intriguing thought, and it would more neatly explain Rei's mysterious appearance before Shinji in episode #01. However, I tend to think Rei has resorted to drastic measures(she's already talked to Asuka) to talk to Shinji without physically walking into the hospital room.

Also, while quantum weirdness is a standard interpretation in Eva, I'd argue that this does not necessarily mean that time-travel or related effects from various quantum interpretations are present in Eva.
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Postby Chuckman » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:35 pm

NemZ and Stardust beat me to it.

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Postby NemZ » Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:26 pm

I'll agree that Rebuild Rei seems to have these psychic powers, but I don't believe that holds true for pre-apotheiosis Rei in the series.
Last edited by NemZ on Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:38 am

View Original PostChuckman wrote:You're not thinking fifth dimensionally!


Exactly! :thumbsup:
~Take care of yourself, I need you~

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Postby Chuckman » Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:46 am

For Rebuild, we can't discount the possibility that Rei will become fifth dimensional without an nth impact and mass harvesting of souls.

I really doubt Anno's entire plan for her was to effectively die off screen between movies.
the prophecy is true

Statistical fact: Cops will never pull over a man with a huge bong in his car. Why? They fear this man. They know he sees further than they and he will bind them with ancient logics. —Marty Mikalski


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