Misato's feelings towards Shinji at the start of Q

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final installment is scheduled to debut in Japan on January 23, 2021.

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:50 am

^
Hesitant in the way that slows her reaction time, kinda like when she waits too long to blow up Shinji's head when he leaves with Rei. Hesitant to make a decision I should say.
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Postby robersora » Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:29 am

View Original PostChaddyManPrime wrote:^
Hesitant in the way that slows her reaction time, kinda like when she waits too long to blow up Shinji's head when he leaves with Rei. Hesitant to make a decision I should say.


Ok, yes. There she clearly hesitates to blow off the head of a 14 year old.
(Because, without Shinji no Eva, lol)
Seriously to me that hesitation is only another showcase of her inner conflicting emotions and thoughts.
He could ignite another impact! <-> But he's only a kid!
He's running off to the enemy! <-> But it's Shinji!
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Postby Kendrix » Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:41 am

I think it's less a concious deliberate decision making process ( like "Does he deserve to live? Do I give him a chance? What is the ethical thing to do here?") than it is all those pictures of him being ridiculously happy over the littlest things he never had before she adopted him rushing back into her head, possibly with the bonus of his accusations painfully reminding her of her more idealistic younger self who played a part in molding him into what he is.

Look at her: Her whole body is pointed into one direction, a complete position that encompasses the direction of her legs, her arms is stretched out, her gaze firm. - but that last bit of pulling the trigger, that didn't go over without finger trembling.
She was not mentally going over the pros and cons of goffing him/that she was conflicted and then decided to spare him, she was fully determined to do it, rationally, it's that she emotionally couldn't bring himself to do it, a bit like Shinji during the Bardiel situation.
She might've underestimated her lingering attachment or her ability to supress it (she does leave the talking to Ritsuko for a reason)

It's not an indication of her negative feelings being limited; It's that she has both deep hatred and something as notoriously permanent as maternal attachment flaring up in her head and intermixing in volative ways, all while she is trying to concentrate on leading her ship.
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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:28 am

^
I don't think that what positive feeling she feels toward Shinji simply comes from some instinct born from the maternal reptilian side of her brain, that would mean that Shinji owes his life to something really flimsy.

While these instinctive feelings undoubtedly were here, I think that she also rationalized that Shinji doesn't really deserve it, and can't bring herself to sink to such low levels of pragmatism that would make her indistinguishable from Gendo.
Maybe she also had some trust in him and hoped that once he'll discover what happened to Tokyo-3 and that his father had nefarious intentions, he'll listen to Sakura's pleas and refuse to pilot the Eva. And in a sense she was right : once he discovered everything Shinji vocally expressed his total refusal to pilot, and it took a guilt-trip with the DSS Choker from Kaworu and his promises that they'll thwart Gedno's plans and repair the world to convince him to pilot one last time.
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Postby robersora » Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:51 am

@Kendrix: Yes, that's what I'm talking about. The best word to describe her emotions thus is "conflicted". Unless someone comes up with a better synonym.
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Postby airman4 » Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:11 pm

View Original Postrobersora wrote:Ok, yes. There she clearly hesitates to blow off the head of a 14 year old.
(Because, without Shinji no Eva, lol)
Seriously to me that hesitation is only another showcase of her inner conflicting emotions and thoughts.
He could ignite another impact! <-> But he's only a kid!
He's running off to the enemy! <-> But it's Shinji!


He is not 28 years old ??
same as Asuka
mari illustrious probably 30...

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:57 pm

^
Technically he is 28 but he has the mind and body of a 14 year old, unless he was in Instrumentality like I think he was in which case he has matured but it doesn't look like it's a good thing in 3.0.
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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:17 am

View Original Postairman4 wrote:He is not 28 years old ??
same as Asuka
mari illustrious probably 30...

No, the big difference is that Asuka and Mari lived through and experienced those 14 years, Shinji was in a sort of state of limbo where his body was dissolved and his mind"shut down", not feeling or experiencing anything, so he's physically and mentally 14 years old.

The only way for him to be mentally 28 years old would be that FINAL reveals that he did lived through those past 14 years inside EVA-01 like in episode 20, but the trauma of "reincarnating" blocked his memories, and that he retrieve those memories.
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Postby airman4 » Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:06 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:No, the big difference is that Asuka and Mari lived through and experienced those 14 years, Shinji was in a sort of state of limbo where his body was dissolved and his mind"shut down", not feeling or experiencing anything, so he's physically and mentally 14 years old.

The only way for him to be mentally 28 years old would be that FINAL reveals that he did lived through those past 14 years inside EVA-01 like in episode 20, but the trauma of "reincarnating" blocked his memories, and that he retrieve those memories.


I said that because i think that Misato and all consider him as a 28 years old , like Asuka told him in a harsh way after they got him
Only him still act as 14 years for the reason you and chaddy stated

That's why Asuka is kind a tired of his behavior in the end of the movie.

Not sure to explain my thoughts well ^^

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Postby Ray » Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:43 pm

um, if he was aware about being trapped in Eva Unit 01 for those 14 years, he probably wouldn't even be able to speak. Furthermore (and not to go off topic) that would mean he was aware and consented with Kaworu starting instrumentality. . .highly unlikely.

There was a scifi novel I read where an Immortal man was trapped underneath a pile of Rubble for a century. . .when he was finally excavated and escaped he couldn't speak, he could barely process what was going on mentally for quite some time. So if he's able to speak, its likely he was in stasis of some sort. Was Asuka aware of the time passing in the coffin when she was filled with angelic contamination?

But back on topic, its a bit much for Misato and Asuka to assume he'd be mentally 28 and be able to process what was going on. Even moreso to assume he was even aware of his actions while in Eva 01 that supposedly turned Nerv (and possibly the planet) into a red Lovecraftian nightmare.

Assuming that's what they both assumed that (I used the same word twice. . .ugh) and is what fueled their apparent mistreatment of him.
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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:12 pm

View Original Postairman4 wrote:I said that because i think that Misato and all consider him as a 28 years old , like Asuka told him in a harsh way after they got him
Only him still act as 14 years for the reason you and chaddy stated

That's why Asuka is kind a tired of his behavior in the end of the movie.

No, they clearly don't consider him 28 years old at all: Shinji made it clear in front of Sakura when he was transported to the Command Bridge that his last conscious moment was when he was saving Rei 14 years ago, so it's clear that he's 14 years old mentally.

Asuka is pissed off at him at the end of the movie because he didn't listened to her and nearly brought victory to SEELE, and on top of that is indirectly responsible for the destruction of her Eva, ending with her stranded in a desolated desert of core material in the middle of neo-NERV's territory. (although to be fair, she didn't exactly made him eager to listen to her)
And just to make matters worses, when she finally found him, it looks like he's pouting at the bottom of his entry plug instead of at least trying to help her so they could get out more easily.
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Postby Ray » Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:50 pm

Figured I'd get an answer on this thread. Since the thread I posted it on is going horribly off topic. If an admin wants to delete this, or split it into its own thread feel free. I just want to keep this Misato thread rolling.

I just have a hard time believing they (Misato and Shinji) can reconcile after 14 years of separation. I barely remember friends I knew from six years ago when I was Fourteen, if I met them now, they might as well be strangers. Now assume they hurt me deeply, disappeared for years, and then came back into my life expecting things to go back to the way they were when I had tried my hardest to forget them. Would I want to reconcile with them, after they betrayed and hurt me like that? Perhaps, but Probably not.

. . .

However (and El Mariachi mentioned it before), the outcome of this ultimately depends on their attitude towards him in Final. If they're still playing the blame game, responding and treating him with military harshness, and continue with the "You are wrong, we are right, and you will do what you're told because you're guilty" attitude. I'll I can do is throw my hands up and prepare for the End.

But given this attitude has likely been hammered into everyone (especially Misato) by Fourteen years of war and bitterness. . . can they respond to him with anything but harshness?


Some more context. . . An author or director can make the most convincing world of death, despair, and suffering imaginable, that doesn't necessarily break the audiences suspension of disbelief. An author can have aliens, Lovecraftian beings, and giant robots in his work, and that won't necessarily break the suspension of disbelief. But if something with the Human relationships happens that the audience can't buy actually happening THAT is usually the deal breaker for the audience.

Case in point: I can buy Dieu Ex Machina eagles at the end of LOTR, but I wouldn't buy a plot twist revealing Gimli was really Sauron's half brother without context and buildup to make it believable.

So as applied to Eva, and, 3.0/Q in particular. Despite my hatred of it, I (and quite a few others) can accept and believe that Misato would turn on Shinji after him being gone for Fourteen years, after leaving them like he did by making her relive her Childhood Horror at N3I, and on top of that him being guilty for a seemingly irredeemable war crime.

SO what has to happen in Final for an audience to buy that they (at least Misato and Shinji) can believably reconcile with each other after all the pain they've caused each other, and the fourteen years of anger, bitterness, resentment, and bad memories on the part of Misato?
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:53 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:SO what has to happen in Final for an audience to buy that they (at least Misato and Shinji) can believably reconcile with each other after all the pain they've caused each other, and the fourteen years of anger, bitterness, resentment, and bad memories on the part of Misato?


Not much, honestly. At this point we still don't really know what Misato feels, or why. We don't know that she feels anger, bitterness, or resentment, or toward whom such feelings are directed if she does indeed feel them. It seems abundantly clear that she views Gendo as her primary enemy, so things with Shinji could go in any of a number of directions. As I said in the other thread, stop assuming and just relax.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:59 pm

The only thing Q shows us of Misato’s emotions is that she’s in conflict with herself. She never tells him that she loves him, and she never tells him that she hates him. all we see is that she was about to up and blow Shinji’s head off, but then she totally decided to not do that. All the next films really needs to tell us is why she’s emotionally conflicted with Shinji (beyond obvious "sergeant son was the Impact Trigger" stuff) and how she’s dealing with it.

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:21 am

I'd argue Misato in 3.0 is being the nicest & most caring to Shinji she's ever been. Everyone gets their panties in a bunch because Misato isn't coddling & being a dotting mother to Shinji in the third film but for the first time in the series - NGE included - she's telling him "NO. You do NOT need to go out there on the battlefield & face certain death for us." She's denying him the chance to go out & die & is instead keeping him as far away from conflict as possible. For the first time in the NGE universe she's being a real mother - i.e. she's NOT sending her surrogate child out to possibly die but is keeping him safe.

For all the lazy proclamations of "Misato's such a bitch in 3.0" if I'm being honest she was more a "insert sexist term here that I do not enjoy using" in everything that came before it because while she was doing her best to alleviate a bad situation by putting a sunny disposition on everything she was still sending a child out to possibly die.

I love Misato in 3.0. There's a lot going on with her & the way she's animated in the film excites me because it's a lot of very subtle work in a franchise - once again, NGE included - that has never been one for subtly.

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Postby Chuckman » Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:37 am

Her posture and the change in her costume implies "hiding something". What she's hiding is her affection for her surrogate son-brother-boyfriend.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:37 pm

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:I love Misato in 3.0. There's a lot going on with her & the way she's animated in the film excites me because it's a lot of very subtle work in a franchise - once again, NGE included - that has never been one for subtly.


Same here, on all counts. :)
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:49 pm

Gendo’s Papa layin’ it down yet again.

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Postby Ray » Mon Jun 30, 2014 4:14 pm

After seeing what she became in 3.0. . .a very small part of me asks would things have been better off if Misato had never taken Shinji in?

Would she have hesitated to pull the trigger if she had no emotional connection to him? Would Shinji have had to go through all that pain and suffering of her all but abandoning him and putting a bomb on his neck? Would Gendo have what he wants? Do Human relationships cause more pain than they are worth? The Misato we knew died at the end of 2.0, can Final really bring her back?
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Postby xanderkh » Mon Jun 30, 2014 4:57 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:After seeing what she became in 3.0. . .a very small part of me asks would things have been better off if Misato had never taken Shinji in?

Would she have hesitated to pull the trigger if she had no emotional connection to him? Would Shinji have had to go through all that pain and suffering of her all but abandoning him and putting a bomb on his neck? Would Gendo have what he wants? Do Human relationships cause more pain than they are worth? The Misato we knew died at the end of 2.0, can Final really bring her back?


We can always ask these "what if" questions about what could and couldn't have happened if things were different. But the fact is, what's done is done Ray. And you ask questions like would it have been easier if Misato had no emotional attachment towards Shinji in regards to "getting the job done"?

Well, I think that "hindering emotional attachment" is one of the few traces of humanity left on that goddamn red rock of a planet where it's "kill or be killed" to survive. There has to be some portion of that left at the end of the day, cause what would be the point of defending a world of monsters?

Yes, what transpired with Shinji and Misato was painful, but considering the circumstances, it was necessary. And before you ask, YES, even the DSS choker was necessary because Shinji is an impact trigger, and it would be necessary to terminate his life if he got in the eva, cause the fate of the world is more important than one individual if necessary.

THAT'S why Misato wanted Shinji to "do nothing anymore", specifically everything Eva. Not because she was being a bitch that hated Shinji for what he did, but to not only protect the world, but to protect HIM as well, cause if he got in Eva again being what he is, they will HAVE to kill him, and apparently, she didn't want that. THAT'S what you're missing with this details Ray, that Misato DOES care.
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