Neo-NERV or WILLE--whose side are you on?

[Rosenakahara]

Well, omitting key facts and twisting the meaning of one words (Kaworu's phrase to Shinji was "It was all initiated by you." which could be interpreted in many ways : Shinji's N3I could had been the first step in a chain of events that led to the 12th Angel reaching Lilith and triggering a true Third Impact) in order to obtain a desired result is close to being the same thing as lying. It's clear that there's something fishy with his explanation, and although it's clear that he really cared for Shinji and genuinely wanted his happiness, I think that he wasn't all white and saintly as many people think, and might very well learned and resigned himself to subtly manipulate Shinji to make him accept to pilot with him, for Shinji's own sake and happiness of course (or at least what Kaworu thought was his happiness)

I created a thread about my theory on Kaworu's intentions in Rebuild here, if you want to talk more about it. (shameless self-promotionà

no i dont consider giving parts of the truth and only parts lying, just hiding information, also nobody said kaworu is a saint, series kaworu has the soul of adam, meaning he killed a large percentage of humanity in second impact, plus until he met Shinji he was going to gladly cause third impact and turn all humans into tang but the reason i dont think kaworu is manipulative (at least if he is he does not mean to be) per say or lies is because kaworu is not human, the way he thinks and acts all all very unique to him as he is the only creature of his type in the universe, to me kaworu is very geniune in what he does, he will give Shinji the facts when he asks but if he does not ask the kaworu wont say anything, Shinji was too in shock to go into detail of the events but i do think is Shinji was more composed and asked kaworu more we would have gotten a solid explanation on what happened in the timegap.

[ElMariachi]

no i dont consider giving parts of the truth and only parts lying, just hiding information,

That's called manipulation, and it looks like Kaworu deliberately manipulated Shinji into believing that what he did at the end of 2.0 immediately ravaged the landscape into what we see in Q, while from what we saw in 2.0's stringer and later in Lilith's Chamber that wasn't the case.
One possibility is that Kaworu wanted Shinji to feel that way so he would feel that it was his responsibility to fix this mess, prompting him to accept to pilot EVA-13 with Kaworu.
Had Kaworu said that Shinji's N3I was just one component of a chain of events that led to what we see in Q, it's possible that Shinji would had felt that it wasn't his responsibility to fix everything by himself and stay out of everyone's business to let WILLE deal with it, which would had completely destroyed Kaworu's plan to bring Shinji his happiness with the spears.

And if it's indeed what Kaworu had in mind, that was very ugly from him.

[Bagheera]

That's called manipulation, and it looks like Kaworu deliberately manipulated Shinji into believing that what he did at the end of 2.0 immediately ravaged the landscape into what we see in Q, while from we saw in the stringer and later in Lilith's Chamber that wasn't the case.

Assuming the stinger is worth a damn, of course. If it isn't everything Kaworu said is spot on.

[Rosenakahara]

And if it's indeed what Kaworu had in mind, that was very ugly from him.

I get the feeling you don't like Kaworu very much :/

[Bagheera]

I get the feeling you don't like Kaworu very much :/

Kaworu talks a lot about making Shinji happy, but he invariably causes the kid more suffering than anyone. And it's very easy to read his actions in both NGE and the ENT as being quite deliberate in that regard.

Which should come as a surprise to no one, of course. He is an angel.

[Rosenakahara]

Kaworu talks a lot about making Shinji happy, but he invariably causes the kid more suffering than anyone. And it's very easy to read his actions in both NGE and the ENT as being quite deliberate in that regard.

Which should come as a surprise to no one, of course. He is an angel.

If thats what you got out of it then ok but i honestly dont think that, i dont think kaworu would have just stopped when he was that close to lilith and just let Shinji kill him if he was just trying to hurt him, sure it did end up hurting him and kaworu knew that after he was dead seele would start third impact but from the dialogue he seemed pretty confident about putting his trust in the fact that Shinji would reject instrumentality, which he did. (oh and giant kaworu doesn't count because that was Rei/lilith trying to start third impact by having Shinji think it was the only way)

[Bagheera]

If thats what you got out of it then ok but i honestly dont think that, i dont think kaworu would have just stopped when he was that close to lilith and just let Shinji kill him if he was just trying to hurt him, sure it did end up hurting him and kaworu knew that after he was dead seele would start third impact but from the dialogue he seemed pretty confident about putting his trust in the fact that Shinji would reject instrumentality, which he did. (oh and giant kaworu doesn't count because that was Rei/lilith trying to start third impact by having Shinji think it was the only way)

You're missing the point. Shinji didn't have to kill Kaworu to keep him from starting 3I. Kaworu could have just walked away. He's lived for 14 years without incident, he clearly has the ability to make his own decisions, and he has the power to go home the same way he left. The very fact that he forced the choice on Shinji is cruel in the extreme.

And of course, in the ENT he all but broke Shinji's mind, only bothering to rethink things when it was too late.

I don't think Kaworu is malicious in either incarnation, but I do think his ignorance is sufficiently advanced that it doesn't really matter. Malicious or no, he is the worst thing to happen to Shinji in both incarnations of the show.

[Firetrout]

If thats what you got out of it then ok but i honestly dont think that, i dont think kaworu would have just stopped when he was that close to lilith and just let Shinji kill him if he was just trying to hurt him, sure it did end up hurting him and kaworu knew that after he was dead seele would start third impact but from the dialogue he seemed pretty confident about putting his trust in the fact that Shinji would reject instrumentality, which he did. (oh and giant kaworu doesn't count because that was Rei/lilith trying to start third impact by having Shinji think it was the only way)

He only let Shinji kill him because he realized it was Lilith, not Adam in Terminal Dogma. Up to that point all he did was manipulate Shinji and tried killing him with Unit02. Even his face when Unit01 barged into Terminal Dogma looked like he was resigned to losing.

[ElMariachi]

I get the feeling you don't like Kaworu very much :/

It's more like I don't buy the common interpretation of some sort of living saint pure from any sins or ulterior motives, that kind of characters are boring. (which is why I find Superman dull)

Now I'm not saying that he's a secret evil mastermind out to destroy Shinji's sanity out of malice, in NGE he really sacrificed himself because he grew to genuinely admire the Lilin and felt that they were more deserving of Earth than the Angels, in no small part thanks to his interactions with Shinji.

But in Rebuild it's impossible to read his motivations : sure he wants to make Shinji happy, he was only talking about that since his first scene, but we don't have any clue about why he's obsessed with Shinji like that.
Besides as I said, a lot of what he said doesn't match with what we saw, so while I'm sure that he genuinely want Shinji's happiness, I get the feeling that he has a very personal view of what said happiness is, and is ready to do some shady things to obtain it, such as subtly manipulating Shinji himself.

Which by the way would make him a far more three-dimensional and interesting character in my opinion.

Assuming the stinger is worth a damn, of course. If it isn't everything Kaworu said is spot on.

Even then, the fact he designated Lilith's Chamber as Third Impact's epicenter and that his old Eva and the 12th Angel were here means that there's a good chunk of the story missing, and that's suspicious.

[Rosenakahara]

You're missing the point. Shinji didn't have to kill Kaworu to keep him from starting 3I. Kaworu could have just walked away. He's lived for 14 years without incident, he clearly has the ability to make his own decisions, and he has the power to go home the same way he left. The very fact that he forced the choice on Shinji is cruel in the extreme.

And of course, in the ENT he all but broke Shinji's mind, only bothering to rethink things when it was too late.

I don't think Kaworu is malicious in either incarnation, but I do think his ignorance is sufficiently advanced that it doesn't really matter. Malicious or no, he is the worst thing to happen to Shinji in both incarnations of the show.

Well technically he was only awake for the span of time between the end of episode 23 and 24 plus his body was made for him by seele so i highly doubt he could just walk away, seele are not that stupid they probably installed some failsafe in kaworu, but 24 was almost 0 budget time so i have a feeling any scene explaining why he couldn't leave was cut.

ENT? you mean rebuild? um in rebuild kaworu was one of the only things keeping Shinji sane, the time he spent rethinking his plan was because he had begun to realize gendo had tricked the hell out of him, also calling kaworu the worst thing to happen to Shinji is just no, sure both times it ended in tragedy and Shinji regressing even more but the time kaworu and Shinji had together was important, hell it the end it was one of the factors that helped Shinji reject instrumentality, i might be biased because i have lost a good friend one too and i first i thought about him like you think about kaworu, that i would have been better off if i had never met him, but then i realized that all those memories and good times i had with him still happened and they still matter, those times helped me grow and i would be even worse off without them so please dont say that kaworu meeting Shinji was a bad thing again, because that makes me just sad.......

EDIT: wow im seriously alone in my liking of kaworu here huh..........

@ElMariachi *sigh* another person who is judging superman without actually reading any of his really good comics again........oh also kaworu is a [Insert religous messiah here] metaphor so of course he is going to be a little saintly

[pwhodges]

Assuming the stinger is worth a damn, of course. If it isn't everything Kaworu said is spot on.

It's not just the stinger, though. The whole business with the state of Lilith, Mk 6 and the angel and spears that we see in Q makes it clear that something else went on at some point.

(Oops - ElMariachi already said it)

[Bagheera]

@Rosenakahara  SPOILER: Show

Well technically he was only awake for the span of time between the end of episode 23 and 24 plus his body was made for him by seele so i highly doubt he could just walk away, seele are not that stupid they probably installed some failsafe in kaworu, but 24 was almost 0 budget time so i have a feeling any scene explaining why he couldn't leave was cut.

We don't have any reason to believe any of that. If it's not show onscreen or indicated in the script somehow it's BS -- Kaworu was technically active since the day of 2I since we're never shown anything to indicate otherwise. We never see or hear anything about "failsafes", and Seele have done plenty of boneheaded things in the past. Hell, sending him at all was dumb on all sorts of levels, no matter their ultimate plan.

ENT? you mean rebuild?

No, I mean the Evangelion New Theatrical series, which is what the new movies are called. "Rebuild" is a nickname that persists on the internet at large out of ignorance and around here because people are too lazy to change their posting habits even though they know better. The only thing in the franchise with "Rebuild" in the title is a DVD featurette. That's it.

um in rebuild kaworu was one of the only things keeping Shinji sane,

You have that backwards. Shinji was perfectly sane when he got to Neo-Nerv. Kaworu fixed that, and Fuyutsuki put the final nail in the coffin.

also calling kaworu the worst thing to happen to Shinji is just no, sure both times it ended in tragedy and Shinji regressing even more but the time kaworu and Shinji had together was important,

Damn right it was important. It broke his mind completely, and the show couldn't have ended as it did otherwise. It wasn't good by any means, but it was important.

hell it the end it was one of the factors that helped Shinji reject instrumentality,

He rejected Instrumentality because he didn't like it. Kaworu didn't really enter into it.

i might be biased because i have lost a good friend one too and i first i thought about him like you think about kaworu, that i would have been better off if i had never met him,

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that things that Kaworu actually did were incredibly damaging to Shinji's mental well-being. Unless your friend put a gun in your hand and guilt tripped you into killing him there's no parallel there.

Even then, the fact he designated Lilith's Chamber as Third Impact's epicenter and that his old Eva and the 12th Angel were here means that there's a good chunk of the story missing, and that's suspicious.

Sure, but nothing says that had anything to do with 3I. Without the stinger everything we see on the surface in Q (i.e., the things we see when Kaworu is telling Shinji he's responsible for 3I could indeed have happened during 3I. It's odd that he'd call TD the epicenter of 3I, but that's only true if you assume Unit 01 was the center of it all. If it isn't, and 3I occurred because Unit 01's awakening also awoke Lilith (which is hinted at via the shot of Lilith at the end of Ha) everything fits together a lot more nicely. The business with the Mark 6 and the Twelfth would happen later, and be unrelated to 3I.

Now, I'm not saying that's what happened. It's far more likely Kaworu's a manipulative SoB and that he's lying through his teeth to get Shinji on board with Gendo's plan. But that is a legit reading if you take the stinger out of the equation.

[Rosenakahara]

@Rosenakahara  SPOILER: Show

We don't have any reason to believe any of that. If it's not show onscreen or indicated in the script somehow it's BS -- Kaworu was technically active since the day of 2I since we're never shown anything to indicate otherwise. We never see or hear anything about "failsafes", and Seele have done plenty of boneheaded things in the past. Hell, sending him at all was dumb on all sorts of levels, no matter their ultimate plan.



No, I mean the Evangelion New Theatrical series, which is what the new movies are called. "Rebuild" is a nickname that persists on the internet at large out of ignorance and around here because people are too lazy to change their posting habits even though they know better. The only thing in the franchise with "Rebuild" in the title is a DVD featurette. That's it.



You have that backwards. Shinji was perfectly sane when he got to Neo-Nerv. Kaworu fixed that, and Fuyutsuki put the final nail in the coffin.



Damn right it was important. It broke his mind completely, and the show couldn't have ended as it did otherwise. It wasn't good by any means, but it was important.



He rejected Instrumentality because he didn't like it. Kaworu didn't really enter into it.



No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that things that Kaworu actually did were incredibly damaging to Shinji's mental well-being. Unless your friend put a gun in your hand and guilt tripped you into killing him there's no parallel there.

Sure, but nothing says that had anything to do with 3I. Without the stinger everything we see on the surface in Q (i.e., the things we see when Kaworu is telling Shinji he's responsible for 3I could indeed have happened during 3I. It's odd that he'd call TD the epicenter of 3I, but that's only true if you assume Unit 01 was the center of it all. If it isn't, and 3I occurred because Unit 01's awakening also awoke Lilith (which is hinted at via the shot of Lilith at the end of Ha) everything fits together a lot more nicely. The business with the Mark 6 and the Twelfth would happen later, and be unrelated to 3I.

Now, I'm not saying that's what happened. It's far more likely Kaworu's a manipulative SoB and that he's lying through his teeth to get Shinji on board with Gendo's plan. But that is a legit reading if you take the stinger out of the equation.

Look your dislike of kaworu has obviously caused you to view him a certain way and my liking of kaworu has caused me to view him a certain way, instead of arguing lets just compromise and say we have different viewpoints on what happened, this is evangelion after all this happens a lot, deal?

[Bagheera]

Look your dislike of kaworu has obviously caused you to view him a certain way and my liking of kaworu has caused me to view him a certain way, instead of arguing lets just compromise and say we have different viewpoints on what happened, this is evangelion after all this happens a lot, deal?

I don't dislike him at all. I think he's a great character and very useful in his role. I just don't look at him with rose colored glasses because I recognize him for what he is: an otherworldly being who doesn't understand humanity in the slightest. This has burdened him with what might be called "innocent cruelty", which means he can do great harm with no malicious intent whatsoever. And, well, that's exactly how it works out.

[Rosenakahara]

I don't dislike him at all. I think he's a great character and very useful in his role. I just don't look at him with rose colored glasses because I recognize him for what he is: an otherworldly being who doesn't understand humanity in the slightest. This has burdened him with what might be called "innocent cruelty", which means he can do great harm with no malicious intent whatsoever. And, well, that's exactly how it works out.

and i disagree with this, its just that simple :P /kaworu discussion over

[AngelNo13Bardiel]

"innocent cruelty"

This is a fitting description for every official incarnation of Kaworu, really. Especially when you consider the infamous "kitten scene", which I understand and don't disagree with his reasoning (yeah, I know that was the manga...but hey, what can ya do).

[pwhodges]

Especially when you consider the infamous "kitten scene", which I understand and don't disagree with his reasoning

The reasoning is OK, but the premiss is unsound. He has no evidence that the kitten's mother will not be able to find him in due course.