What are some of the most done to death NGE fanfic ideas?

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Postby Bagheera » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:10 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:You say that as if it's an issue merely to be avoided rather than embraced to provide dramatic tension. That's not a problem, it's a plot.


You can say that about a rapist or a murderer looking to ply his trade and get away with it, too. Same difference.

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:Multiple people solve the issue of honesty, but you still have a group of people lying about things...that's a conspiracy.


Right, one bent on stopping another conspiracy from wrecking the world. Now that's a plot!

I think one of the big failings of Peggy Sues is they don't realistically address that facet of the story. The idea that someone has come back is hard to wrap your mind around, but the fact that they've been lying? For your benefit? That's an easy to grasp concept, and one a person would be hurt or even furious about, due to the betrayal of trust, and the breakdown of this concept of the other person's 'self' as they presented.

Go ahead and give me the dishonesty. A moral character trying to justify dishonesty is fascinating. That's a good story there. Just don't cheapen it with an easy way out.


The real problem is that it can't end well. After all, who is this person to determine what's actually beneficial to you? Unless they're your parent (and you're a minor) they have no business making those decisions on your behalf, no matter their intentions. And yeah, if a Peggy Sue brought that out into the open and dealt with it it might be okay, but I honestly think any author who was keen on doing that would come up with a better story to write to begin with. Which is probably why you lot haven't bothered writing one, even though you're prolific little SOBs. :lol:
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The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:11 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:It doesn't matter, since he's stuck manipulating people and lying to them no matter what. Think about how you would feel if you found out someone close to you knew shit you probably didn't want them to know, and was using that information to guide your actions "for your own good". Even in the most benign of scenarios that's pretty skeevy, far moreso if the person's a love interest.

Well at least in OMWF, Shinji wondered if it's really ethical to use his knowledge of the future about the people's darkest secrets thanks to Instrumentality when he obtained some favors out of Fuyutsuki using his unrequited love for Yui, and if he wasn't acting like his father would, but that's true that it was the only moment.
Until the latest chapter,
SPOILER: Show
when Shinji got a big cold shower by realizing that even with his knowledge of the future, he's still a complete newbie in terms of manipulation compared to Kheel and Gendo, with the former who completely read him like a book and even noticed that he knows things that he shouldn't, while it's made clear that if Gendo somehow discover Shinji's secret, he'll eat him alive. Even Kaji told him to don't try to get in that sort of stuff and instead to concentrate on the Angels.



View Original Postgorgeousshutin wrote:There's a lot of mention of Peggy Sue in this thread, yes. But when I see a fic labeled Time Loop, especially at AO3, it is almost always the characters having deja wu-filled meeting sensing they've met before in some other time/space - but without solid memories to back it up. Almost invariably, a relationship then blossoms quickly between the characters, even though neither have full knowledge of their being Peggy Sues themselves. That kinda fic has been popping up a lot since the first Rebuild movie came out.

Everytime I see a fic labeled "Time Loop" at AO3, it's one about Kaworu and how he loves so much his Shinji-kun even if he can only see him for a very short amount of time, and how he's ready to do many more loops just for the chance to share more moments with his Shinji-kun.
In fact, almost everytime I see a new fic Evangelion in AO3, it's about Kaworu and his time loops and how much he loves Shinji. Seriously by looking at the Evangelion section of AO3 one might think that it's a boy's love show!
Last edited by ElMariachi on Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Gob Hobblin » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:21 pm

To Bagheera: A conspiracy is still a conspiracy. When you have a pact of people make a decision to work towards the 'good of the world,' however pure their intentions, they will have to break eggs and make sacrifices to uphold the good of the group. Factor in secrecy, and you have no limit to what must be done to ensure success.

I'm not saying it doesn't make for a good story, it's just that whether it's one person or many, you still come back to the issue of dishonesty. The scale and scope is all that changes.

And it not ending well is kind of the point: you break the trust of people, there are consequences. Perhaps they will forgive you, perhaps not, but even with a good ending (and there can be positive endings), there is still damage. There is still a bond of trust that has been broken, and all the repairs made will still have the scars from that.

That is an interesting story waiting to happen. The drama in storytelling doesn't come from the prettiness of the character's lives, it comes from the conflict and the friction.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Postby Bagheera » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:26 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:I'm not saying it doesn't make for a good story, it's just that whether it's one person or many, you still come back to the issue of dishonesty. The scale and scope is all that changes.


Right, but my point is that the dishonesty isn't the problem -- it's the sense of violation associated with manipulating people you supposedly care about in this fashion.

That is an interesting story waiting to happen. The drama in storytelling doesn't come from the prettiness of the character's lives, it comes from the conflict and the friction.


I'll just point to the last line of my previous post. If you're gonna invest that amount of effort there are better stories to be told.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:30 pm

Believe it or not, a Peggy Sue is on my 'to do' list. I made it a goal to try and deconstruct the common fanfic tropes as a personal writing challenge to myself, and I intend to follow through.

It's simply not been something that's as important to me as the other stories I have on my plate at the moment, though.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Rei wanted to know what waffles tasted like.
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We have to remember what's important in life: friends, waffles, and work. Or waffles, friends, and work. But work has to come in third.
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Come read EVA Sessions! This place has it, too! There'll be pizza! Not really! There are other things, too! Not EVA Sessions! Did I mention the pizza!?

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Postby SEELE » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:33 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote: Seriously by looking at the Evangelion section of AO3 one might think that it's a boy's love show!


Dont let it bother you. Yaoi-Fangirls have lacking of boyfriends or a gentle and nice guy. They are pretty much everywhere. At FanFiktion.de they are literally everywhere. Half of the german fictions there are KaworuShin shit with bad writing and even more bad plots or they are Asuka-bash fic. Every yaoi (german) eva fangirl is a potential Asuka-basher or totally crazy. Trust me this is sooooo common. :facepalm:
Its not that i dont like KaworuShin but he pretty much died everytime we encounter him or so. If is head blows of or he gets smacked by Shinji. Its everytime the same.
"Shinji repeatedly rises to the occasion, overcomes his own doubts and fears and puts others ahead of himself to the point of self harm. The situation overwhelms him. Victory does not define a hero. Intent does. He breaks at the end, but after inhuman, overwhelming, borderline comedic suffering." - Chuckman talking about Shinji as a hero
Final Fantasy 7 gets a remake. I hope it doesn't goes the same way NTE did.
Plus I kinda want to be done with this franchise for a while and concentrate on other things in life. - Guy Nacks

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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:34 pm

^
Yeah, pretty much that : currently there's 372 stories in the Evangelion section of AO3, and of these 372 stories, 218 are KawoShin, which represents almost 60% of the stories in this section! And a big majority aren't even that good, just consisting on a gay-fest of Kaworu putting on the moves on Shinji and the latter blushing profusely, followed by lots of cuddling, kissing and even more blushing. Seriously, is some originality too much to ask for?


View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:Believe it or not, a Peggy Sue is on my 'to do' list. I made it a goal to try and deconstruct the common fanfic tropes as a personal writing challenge to myself, and I intend to follow through.

Oh, will you make the person coming back having failed so many times/having been broken so badly by the original loop that he or she became a cold and calculating asshole seeing everyone as only levers and relationships as statistics?
A little like Homura in Madoka Magica : going from a cute and clumsy girl wanting to save the one she cares about and her friends to the cold and calculating broken badass only continuing for the sake of the one she came to love, and ready to destroy anything and anyone who gets in her way?
Last edited by ElMariachi on Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:36 pm

View Original PostSEELE wrote:Yaoi-Fangirls have lacking of boyfriends or a gentle and nice guy.


That's a pretty bold and blanket statement there, SEELE.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Rei wanted to know what waffles tasted like.
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We have to remember what's important in life: friends, waffles, and work. Or waffles, friends, and work. But work has to come in third.
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Come read EVA Sessions! This place has it, too! There'll be pizza! Not really! There are other things, too! Not EVA Sessions! Did I mention the pizza!?

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Postby Kendrix » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:44 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:It doesn't matter, since he's stuck manipulating people and lying to them no matter what. Think about how you would feel if you found out someone close to you knew shit you probably didn't want them to know, and was using that information to guide your actions "for your own good".


I think that's ready far too much into it uncessarily - perhaps the most bad/gary stu-ish ones can ocassionally come off that way, but in most fics, they rarely really try to "guide" anyone's actions, the focus (and what really motivates ppl to write that stuff) is usually on the character in question fixing their own less than ideal contributions to the plot.

Aquiring [designated love interest] is usually just a side effect of tryin to prevent them from getting exploded/shot/mindraped.

As a previous poster said, more ppl knowing takes away from the dramatic tension (and the idea/cathasis effect of the character in question cleaning out what the author percieves as "their own messes")

Something that is, however, rarely adressed enough (because most turn the time-traver into a reformed badass, which can boringify things if overdone) is the sheer isolation and heaviness of the burden of being the only one who knows about the imminent apocalypse and has only a short time to fix it.

Right off the bat, I can only really name "Unbroken".

You'd think the characters would be a little more shocked at learning that they failed to prevent/possibly even caused the freakin' apocalypse, especially in those scenarios where they just wake up around eps 8 or 16 and percieved the clusterfuck to come as a random vision.
Wouldn't your first idea be that it's simply the stess/regular ol' fear of screwing up?

Or maybe get tempted to reset it again at the first major setback. Or get too confident too early, e.g. around ep 16 when stuff seems to be geing well and probably will be going even better in the fic.

Personally, I've had Shinji go through some major sort of coping/grieving process once he finds out WTF is really going on, and spends a lot of time just aimlessly despairing about it before he decides to do something about it, after all, [pessimism=Shinji] he just learned that he already failed countless of times, the comfirmation that he, just as he always feared, just isn't cut out for the job [/pessimism](allthoug I've made the overall circumstances a lot less conspicously helpful than they usually are)


I guess that would, to some, defeat the point of having an older wiser versions of the characters have a go at the problems, which wasn't really what I was going for, but... a great amount of the show's appeal comes from the troubles of their characters. Have them have to go through some degree of a work curve.



Also, how 'bout some timetravelling Rei?
There's more timetravelling Gendo , or even Hikari than there is Rei.
Maybe because they usually have Lillith as the one responsible already?
Heck, if anyone HAS some Rei timetravel, however mediocre, give me a link right now.


View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Oh, will you make the person coming back having failed so many times/having been broken so badly by the original loop that he or she became a cold and calculating asshole seeing everyone as only levers and relationships as statistics?


That's so common it's become an overused trope of its own, and tends to feed into hispterish notions of what is 'mature'.
It was fun the first few times, but ultimately defeats the point of having your fic contain Shinji/Asuka/woever.
Last edited by Kendrix on Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby SEELE » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:45 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:That's a pretty bold and blanket statement there, SEELE.


Don't take it srsly. But its true in some other FF sections around FF.net for example. The Walking Dead (Rickyl), Harry Potter and Naruto. NGE is no exception. The problem that i have with those writers is they harass somebody in their reviews or simply ignore everything that is not Yaoi. (best example on FF.de). I dont hate them but if they ranting about me i can do that too. :lol: besides it is true that most of them ignore every other stuff or updating their FF just in time to be headline or some bullshit. Ohh, boy if you would know. The german community is soooo dumb sometimes. Best way to get it is at some communitys on Youtube. Per' se every hour they are posting some shit ... ahh f*ck it.

BTT: KaworuShin is done to death!
Last edited by SEELE on Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Shinji repeatedly rises to the occasion, overcomes his own doubts and fears and puts others ahead of himself to the point of self harm. The situation overwhelms him. Victory does not define a hero. Intent does. He breaks at the end, but after inhuman, overwhelming, borderline comedic suffering." - Chuckman talking about Shinji as a hero
Final Fantasy 7 gets a remake. I hope it doesn't goes the same way NTE did.
Plus I kinda want to be done with this franchise for a while and concentrate on other things in life. - Guy Nacks

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:47 pm

I've heard Rei compared to Schroedinger's Cat in some scenarios (essentially being everywhere and nowhere at once). I think a being like that would definitely be less constricted by concepts such as time and linear spacing than any of the other characters.

Which is another aspect of Peggy Sues I wish we could see more of: if a character is somehow capable of moving back in time, there is the implication that something is helping them...or they've transmuted to a point where something like that is possible for them.

How would someone like that even be able to RELATE to anyone anymore?
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Rei wanted to know what waffles tasted like.
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We have to remember what's important in life: friends, waffles, and work. Or waffles, friends, and work. But work has to come in third.
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Come read EVA Sessions! This place has it, too! There'll be pizza! Not really! There are other things, too! Not EVA Sessions! Did I mention the pizza!?

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Postby Kendrix » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:53 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:
How would someone like that even be able to RELATE to anyone anymore?


If the writer is good enough... it would still be Rei/Shinji/Asuka/whoever.

They're all people who are inherently particularly helpless in the face of their persistent flareups of ocassional leftover humanity.

It would sure be isolating/pose a hurdle, but...


Hm I guess it depends on wether the person is going back because they still want to fix shit or because they're trapped.
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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:54 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:I've heard Rei compared to Schroedinger's Cat in some scenarios (essentially being everywhere and nowhere at once). I think a being like that would definitely be less constricted by concepts such as time and linear spacing than any of the other characters.

Which is another aspect of Peggy Sues I wish we could see more of: if a character is somehow capable of moving back in time, there is the implication that something is helping them...or they've transmuted to a point where something like that is possible for them.

How would someone like that even be able to RELATE to anyone anymore?


Well they wouldn't be human or at the very least they would have a very alien personality, maybe kinda like Dr. Manhattan. I've always wanted to read a story where after Shinji became God he got Dr. Manhattan like powers and slowly grew alien to humanity.

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Postby Stillborn » Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:05 pm

He don't need Manhattan's powers for that. He became pretty distant and alienated from humanity moments before he tanged all for that very reason.
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Postby Squigsquasher » Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:22 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Er, it's the only pairing that's even remotely plausible by the end of the story. And I mean that in the most literal sense -- until humans show up again no other pairing is even possible, and even when they do the other candidates for both individuals aren't coming back. So unless you're running with an OC you're pretty much stuck with these two. As for the plausibility argument, see standard therapy/growing up/shared life experiences/near-identical basic needs and desires and go from there. Plenty of real life couples have succeeded with far less to work with.


By the end of the story (if you go with EoE), shipping of any kind is out of the question because everyone is either dead or insane. If you go with EoTV there is the possibility for shipping, as assuming that EoTV is Instrumentality through Shinji's eyes (and playing out far less...disturbingly) as a lot of people see it, there's the possibility that everyone has come back hunky dory and not completely broken, but seeing how vague it is as to what actually happened, post-EoTV fics are even harder than post-EoE (at least with EoE, you have a fairly explicitly laid out BAD END).

After a certain point in the series (The battle with Zeruel I'd say) unless you're using major plothax/AU/maximum over-silly, all possibilities for shipping are more or less dead (excluding Kaworu, and even then, that can only really end one way unless you call in the aforementioned plothax or are just writing a really daft fic a la The Happy Red Planet)

Shipping fics (lemon or otherwise) are the territory of the action arc/midsection of Eva, when Anno wasn't in the depths of depression and when the series still bore some resemblence to an over-the-top teenage mecha romance comedy with added LOLGAINAX- I've always felt that Shipping fics require a relatively light-hearted and silly atmosphere to work. "Serious" shipping fics rarely end well unless the author is really really good, and even then, after Zeruel the grimdark levels become inhospitable to even the most melancholy of shipping fics (unless you go into full Adam Kadmon mode, and by that point you're not writing shipping fiction, you're writing horrendously dreary and sickeningly grotesque misery porn).

Of course, it probably doesn't help that I don't write "serious" Eva fics, I completely, totally and utterly reject EoE being anywhere close to the "true" ending, and that I have mild distaste for Asuka herself (She just...aggravates me.)


TL,DR: Eva shipping fics that stick to canon don't work post-descent because grimdark and romance do not go well together unless your name is Doomrider and you do COCAAAIIINNNE. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that Eva shipping fics that stick to canon don't work full stop simply due to Eva's nature.
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Postby Bagheera » Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:26 pm

View Original PostSquigsquasher wrote:By the end of the story (if you go with EoE), shipping of any kind is out of the question because everyone is either dead or insane. If you go with EoTV there is the possibility for shipping, as assuming that EoTV is Instrumentality through Shinji's eyes (and playing out far less...disturbingly) as a lot of people see it, there's the possibility that everyone has come back hunky dory and not completely broken, but seeing how vague it is as to what actually happened, post-EoTV fics are even harder than post-EoE (at least with EoE, you have a fairly explicitly laid out BAD END).


. . . except it's not. It's ambiguous. A bad end would be Last B, but we didn't get that.

Shipping fics (lemon or otherwise) are the territory of the action arc/midsection of Eva, when Anno wasn't in the depths of depression and when the series still bore some resemblence to an over-the-top teenage mecha romance comedy with added LOLGAINAX- I've always felt that Shipping fics require a relatively light-hearted and silly atmosphere to work. "Serious" shipping fics rarely end well unless the author is really really good, and even then, after Zeruel the grimdark levels become inhospitable to even the most melancholy of shipping fics (unless you go into full Adam Kadmon mode, and by that point you're not writing shipping fiction, you're writing horrendously dreary and sickeningly grotesque misery porn).


You're exaggerating to a comical degree here. As I said in the Instrumentality thread there's really no reason the kids can't recover just like any other victim of trauma would. The notion that they're irrevocably broken and all hope is lost is just silly.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Kendrix » Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:31 pm

View Original PostSquigsquasher wrote:Shipping fics (lemon or otherwise) are the territory of the action arc/midsection of Eva, when Anno wasn't in the depths of depression and when the series still bore some resemblence to an over-the-top teenage mecha romance comedy with added LOLGAINAX- I've always felt that Shipping fics require a relatively light-hearted and silly atmosphere to work.


Hm. My personal perception was that it's the overly lighthearted ones that have a tendency to get boring and generic.

The drama/tragedy and disfunctionality/hard work is all part of what would be the appeal in the first place, unless your favorite pairing is Touji/Hikari.

My first advice to anyone planning a multi-chapter fic would be:
"The plot is your friend."


A short Waff/Oneshot is, of course, another question, where a slightly quirky premise and sufficient cuteness are pretty much enough to induce catharsis and avoid audience boredom while keeping the characters recognizeable.
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Postby Gob Hobblin » Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:39 pm

I enjoy the occasional multi-chapter WAFF, but you raise a good point, Kendrix: unless there's some tension or drama in there, it's just the opposite of reading a dreary dark fic. No flavor, and dull.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Postby Kendrix » Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:53 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:I enjoy the occasional multi-chapter WAFF


Are we talking 4 to 5 chapters or whole story spanning dozens?

I guess if you had a good enough writer and some idea/premise to keep things varied...

WAFF is not in itself bad. It's only natural to have a desire to see these characters recieve hugs.

But there's a difference between indusing cartharsis and producing boredom.


As for the "tension", hm, it would be best if ppl took something from the actual plot/circumstances or let it naturally flow from their character flaws than to just, say, shoehorn in a typical 'first argument' or have some shallow OC provoke uncharacteristic jealousy. A lot of those fics started so good, untill it started feeling like they were ticking boxes and it barely even resembed whoever it was once meant to be. Rei?

No folks, Rei is not some blank slate you can just slap on whatever personality you're currently in the mood for. Although people easily do the same with Asuka. At least Shinji stays intact as much as he makes for a good comedy staple...

Think of how the characters would uniquely react to the situation you chose to put them in - That's almost as efficient at getting things from becoming generic and boring as checking how high said situation is on the popularity lists.
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Postby Squigsquasher » Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:58 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:Hm. My personal perception was that it's the overly lighthearted ones that have a tendency to get boring and generic.

The drama/tragedy and disfunctionality/hard work is all part of what would be the appeal in the first place, unless your favorite pairing is Touji/Hikari.

My first advice to anyone planning a multi-chapter fic would be:
"The plot is your friend."


A short Waff/Oneshot is, of course, another question, where a slightly quirky premise and sufficient cuteness are pretty much enough to induce catharsis and avoid audience boredom while keeping the characters recognizeable.


I was referring to oneshots/shorts, yes. I dunno, I find that sometimes the shortest reads can be the most satisfying.
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