Are Misato, Ritsuko and Kaji, the Id, Superego and Ego?

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Are Misato, Ritsuko and Kaji, the Id, Superego and Ego?

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Postby EmperorDog » Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:31 am

It's well known than Shinji Rei and Asuka are the Ego, Superego and Id, but what about this other trio?
Misato: she's reckless and impulsive.
Ritsuko: she's usually cold and do not let emotions interfere with the reason (except for episode 23 and EoE).
Kaji: he is also impulsive when we are talking about women, but usually has patience and do what should be done.

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:24 am

You know that line that Asuka says "I wonder if I'll be like Misato when I grow up?" could be hilarious foreshadowing. They may switch their roles as they grow older sort of becoming Generation Xeroxes.

But yeah I think you're kinda right in your assumption. I don't really see any reason to argue your interpretation.

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Postby NemZ » Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:40 pm

I wouldn't say it's 'well known'. I wouldn't even say it's true.

This seems like a case of people trying to force the series to fit some predetermined symbolic mold even though doing so doesn't really tell us anything about the show at all. What exactly is the point of such a theory?
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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:51 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:I wouldn't say it's 'well known'. I wouldn't even say it's true.

This seems like a case of people trying to force the series to fit some predetermined symbolic mold even though doing so doesn't really tell us anything about the show at all. What exactly is the point of such a theory?


Probably just out of curiosity Good Sir, he most likely just wants to discuss theories and symbolic meanings, it's understandable. I personally like the idea that everything has meaning in Evangelion. It along with Buffy The Vampire Slayer are the shows I like to philosophize and ponder meaning the most about.

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Postby Kendrix » Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:00 pm

Nah. I think that's forcing it into a pattern.

While you could make the argument for the Children with abit more of ground to start from, from the ways they are contrasted in certain scenes, this really looks like reaching for patterns to me.

Misato & Ritsuko are simply presented as your basic emotion vs rationalism contrast, with a dash of optimist vs cynism and the the catch that those roles (along with what the audience is lad to believe about their sexual behavior. One is doing lots of screwing at work, one never got to find a partner because she's consumed by her work and possibly being hung up about her colleague crush. It's not the one you first think.) subvert - Misato finds herself forced into compromizing her ethics by sher necessity, and demonstrates a colder, moe driven mentality, while Ritsuko'd image of rationality and comandeering presence eventually shatters to reveal a deeply submissive person largely drivn by passion and jealous - it gets a lot less clear cut because both of them are quite self-aware about it. Misato's pretty conflicted throughout the series and pretty much says it at the camera, while Ritsuko is somewhat implied to have tried to reject the passionate, sexual side she assosiates with her mother and distance herself from her as far as outward presentaton goes.

Ritsuko doesn't really highlight society or "other people" as much as you'd expect your 'superego' figure. ("The needs of the many...") Yeah, she looks more mature if you put her next to Misato (as would many people), but look at the cene in ep 14 where she talks to Maya abiout ethics and ven becomes a 'corrupting' influence on the sweet and innocent token normal person Maya. (Contrast Rei who is all about 'bonds' and has, at the start of the series, completely subordinated her own wishes and feelings to a rle she's supposed to fill)

Conversely, discribing Misato as 'just emotional and impulsive' is a bit simplified. Sure, she is an emotional person, but that is for better or for worse. Sometimes she gets imprudent, sometimes she adopts motherless children. She's more a representation of the general concept of "emotion" (in contrast to Ritsuko's rationality - at times she's simply rightregardless of wether Misato likes it/more mature, at other times, she's coldly unethical) than the 'id', which really comes from the old/reptilian, instinct-driven parts of the brain and is a more self-centric perspective in contrast to the superego's overly other-centric one. Misato's not all like, "I want my fucking revenge, screw what I have to do for it!". She's conflicted. She spends a lot of time thinking about how to support the kids, particularly Shinji.
Unlike, say, Asuka's general big fish eat small fish mentality and simplistic, "Well, if they attack us, we'll defend ourselves!" She's essentially driven by what is outwardly indistinguishable from selfishness, but from her PoV probably closer to 'self-preservation'. ("I don't wanna die, I don't wanna die...")
She feels existentially threatened by a perceived possibility of becoming unneeded and unimportant.


Most importantly, the most obvious characteristic of a Freudian trio is missing: The 'balancing', the 'ego' component finding himself chosing between their options or struggling to find a balance that akwowledges that both self and society, along wih thought, instinct and emotion are ALL important parts of the smart monkey experience.
It' not like Kaji stands with them on the command platform; He's a complete outside element to most of their dicussing, arguing and decision-making, nor does elaborate contrast between them happen (unlike with Shinji, who admires Rei for her ability to just go through with scary unpleasant things like battling Ramiel, but also gets berated by Asuka for needlessly complicating everything - the similarities and differences he has witch each of them get analyzed in detail, just look at episode 11. "This way!" "No, this way!" "Shinji, decide!")

Kaji doesn't really have anything in common with Ritsuko, his more experience-based, amateus philosopher kind of 'maturity' is a different animal, really, and he's probaly overall an emotion-driven person. That's not necessarly a contradiction to being more chillaxed, just a question on the types of emotions. In that way, you could compare Kaji to 'what Shinji may have ecome given a few years of tempering and experience', ecept probably the ladykilling part.
Kaji and Misato kind of turn into each other if you tried to genderflipped, if you added a chillpill to Man!Sato, but then again, it might not even be needed since a dude exposes himself to way less scrutiny by keeping flirty demeanor - it's probably a ruse to project conidence in both their cases.

The main difference may be exemplified in how Misato is working from within NERV and starts getting suspicious, while Kaji is this independent spy dude (just think if they never broke up, and conducted their investigations together from the beginning...)
She's more of a 'working bee' who let he revenge plot eat her life untill shesuddenly found herself drifteng past what is commonly percieved as 'marriable age', an he's this... vagabondish character, which turned out inoportune when she already had this trauma about her utterly uneliable old man (ep 25:"Dudes always retreat into their own worlds and leave me behind! No, it was probably all my fault...")


You know that line that Asuka says "I wonder if I'll be like Misato when I grow up?" could be hilarious foreshadowing.


I think there are alread sufficiently parsimonous explanations/meanings for that line.
For one thing, lampshading her hypocricy/projection: Asuka was throwing herself on the exact same guy a while earlier, yet now, she suddenly has conservative family values? It's not like Asuka doesn't flaunt her sexuality. Remember her bikini, and how she made very sure the next available boy gets a good look at it? What more, she actually get upset when people don't reciprocate on the spot, not merely percieve her as confident. She really wants to convince herself more than she wants to convince others, but there's also the angle of Asuka's problematic history of bonding with female parental figures.
See eps 22 and 25 where we see her completely rejecting her stepmother's attemtps to get close to her, but then there are these segments where she expresses uncertainty and fear of being left/rejected by her?
She may have rejected both Misato and her stepmother (or settled into a ritual exchange of superficial smalltalk), but he's probably still got some subconciouswish to have a relationship with them. You can partially see that in how she seems to emulate them a bit, bth the stepmother's big, intellectual sounding talk and Misato's sexy-fake-onfidence-in-a-can. Can I borrow your parfume, please?

Another factor that we see her is the discrepancy between Asuka's outside image and real disposition. "I don't need no dude!" ...yet Shinji gets to open the heavy door. She wants to be percieved as an adult and show that she's 'ready' for the sexual stuff... yet she finds the thought of two unmarried adults doing the nasty yucky?

Poor Asuka spent so much time pretending to be mature already, that she never got to do much actual maturing, allthough as with Shinji, you have this unfortunte propensity of hers to confuse any kind of negative feedback with being completely dumped/disowned, which is why he neurotically avoids it, and she will get extremely defensive.
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Postby NemZ » Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:04 pm

There certainly are symbolic meanings to be found in eva, but it's definately possible to go too far trying to find them or make it fit some grand design such that you lose sight of what's actually going on. It becomes less about the show and more about what you want to believe, and at that point you could just toss anything into the framework and get an answer that 'fits' but which doesn't add up to anything at all.

This way madness lies.
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Postby Kendrix » Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:34 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:There certainly are symbolic meanings to be found in eva, but it's definately possible to go too far trying to find them or make it fit some grand design such that you lose sight of what's actually going on. It becomes less about the show and more about what you want to believe, and at that point you could just toss anything into the framework and get an answer that 'fits' but which doesn't add up to anything at all.

This way madness lies.


^THIS.

:clap:

EVA taught me many things, but the honor of teaching me that it's posible to miss the trees for the forest belongs to its fandom XD
Searching for meaning is important, I certainly don't wanna go all, "If you're seeing something other than me, you're looking too hard by default", we're all succeptible to the shortcommings of our brains and I work to deal with them as best as I can...but it does need to be anchored in actual evidence from what we see in the show, which I don't think this partcular theory necessarily is.
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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:16 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:Nah. I think that's forcing it into a pattern.


See every story fits a pattern, that's why tropes exist because there's only so many ideas to be had. Every story has a introduction, initiating action, rising action, climax, falling action, and resolution. Every story has a protagonist, antagonist(s), and supporting cast. In every story there is a obstacle to over come. Every character has a personality, they have something to say about how the author thinks or feels, it comes from their mindset and psyche. Everything can be categorized and dissected.

Isn't it odd that there are so many groups of three in the stories that we read? It's my firm belief that when an author makes a trinity or big three it is because subconsciously we know that there are three sides to ourselves, it's ingrained in our mind that we do. For example, I'm just going to list groups of three from some of my favorite stories that can be viewed as Superego, Ego, and Id.

SPOILER: Show
Superman = Superego
Wonder Woman = Ego
Batman = Id

Buffy = Superego
Xander = Ego
Willow = Id

Naruto = Superego
Sakura = Ego
Sasuke = Id

Heck Naruto is chock full of groups of three that represent the three sides.

Bill = Superego
Beth = Ego
Ben = Id

Jason = Superego
Kimberly = Ego
Tommy = Id

Finn = Superego
Bonnibel = Ego
Marceline = Id


The roles may shift but they remain constant within the group.

That's really all I have to say on the matter.



NemZ wrote:This way madness lies.


I don't think it leads to madness, I think it's because we lack the patience and effort that it would take to dissect something as vast as Eva. It could be done but I for one lack the focus to do so, I mostly blame my ADD :lol:

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Postby NemZ » Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:31 pm

That list is an excellent example of putting things into groups because you want them to fit, not because they make any sense at all or because it tells us anything whatsoever about the series they come from. The only thing it really has anything to say about is the person making the list.

Read these and think deeply about what it is you think you're accomplishing.

[url]http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pattern_recognition[/url]
[url]http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias[/url]
[url]http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Magical_thinking[/url]
[url]http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy[/url]
Rest In Peace ~ 1978 - 2017
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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:51 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:That list is an excellent example of putting things into groups because you want them to fit, not because they make any sense at all or because it tells us anything whatsoever about the series they come from. The only thing it really has anything to say about is the person making the list.

Read these and think deeply about what it is you think you're accomplishing.

[url]http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pattern_recognition[/url]
[url]http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias[/url]
[url]http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Magical_thinking[/url]
[url]http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy[/url]


It's not about accomplishment, I'm not attempting to sway anyone or change their opinions, I like peoples opinions just the way they are, I like diversity. I think if anything I'm explaining story in general and the subconscious mind at work, perhaps a little psychoanalyzing in the mix too.

Though we are kinda getting off topic :lol: I would love to continue this discussion with you Good Sir if you want to make a separate thread for it :grin:
Last edited by ChaddyManPrime on Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:25 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Postby Chuckman » Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:57 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:
This way madness lies.


It's fun. You ought to give it a whirl.
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Postby Doublegee » Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:52 pm

View Original PostChaddyManPrime wrote:You know that line that Asuka says "I wonder if I'll be like Misato when I grow up?" could be hilarious foreshadowing.


Of what?
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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:06 pm

View Original PostDoublegee wrote:Of what?


Her becoming exactly like Misato, having a penguin, drinking a lot, driving fast, wearing her type of clothes, being a normal badass without the use of a giant robot, having wards of her own, her and Shinji having a relationship similar to Misato and Kaji, oh and having an awesome car.

I'll try to find the picture it was really cool.

Found it! Freaking badass

SPOILER: Show
[URL=http://s1015.photobucket.com/user/Chad_Schwartz/media/tumblr_mcqfomEXvs1rcn2upo1_500_zps7e2d57a0.png.html]Image[/URL]

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Postby Doublegee » Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:04 pm

View Original PostChaddyManPrime wrote:Her becoming exactly like Misato, having a penguin, drinking a lot, driving fast, wearing her type of clothes, being a normal badass without the use of a giant robot, having wards of her own, her and Shinji having a relationship similar to Misato and Kaji, oh and having an awesome car.


I must have been drunk when I watched that episode, because I don't remember ANY of that...
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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:10 pm

View Original PostDoublegee wrote:I must have been drunk when I watched that episode, because I don't remember ANY of that...


Oh in End of Evangelion Asuka asks the question " Will I be like Misato when I grow up?"


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