No Happy Ending? Predestination In Rebuild.

[Ray]

I'm writing this in an attempt to sort out my feelings towards a revelation I've had recently. One that has changed my attitude towards the Rebuilds to a somewhat pessimistic one. So take what I have to say with a grain of salt. Also this post is going to be bringing up a plot element that is present in both the original series and the Rebuilds, but for the sake of making a point. Not debating the quality of either incarnation.

I'm also writing this in an attempt to create a neutral 3rd position. Between the pessimists who believe after 3.0 there is no way for Shinji to get a happy ending (like many and myself wanted), and are angry at Anno as such, and those who are optimistic for Shinji to get a happy ending.

I think that both parties are ignoring something that was and continues to be a recurring theme in Both NGE and the Rebuilds. One that the audience should have taken into account upon seeing the first scene of the first movie. The introduction of the theme of predestination and inevitability.

A recurring theme in most tragic narrative is man attempting to combat the inevitable, in an attempt to have some kind of control and autonomy over his own destiny, only to find out that all his efforts to control his destiny are in vain.

A good example would be King Laius in Oedipus Rex, whom after hearing a prophecy that his son would kill him when he became an adult. Attempting to avert his fate, the king went mad and attempted to kill his own son, to keep the prophecy from being fufilled. But in the end, attempting to avert his fate only suceeded in pushing him closer to his inevitable demise. If he had not attempted to kill Oedipus, the son would not have been taken away, come back as a conqueror, and killed his father.

"How does this apply to NGE, and more importantly to Final?" you may ask. THIS is why

In Rebuild:



And in the Original Series



At the beginning of the series, in the first episode and also in the first scene of 1.11, Shinji sees a vision of Rei for a moment. This is obviously not the real Rei since she was miles away in Nerv headquarters at the time. So why did he see her, a woman whom he had never met a would not meet for some time? I was confused about this for a while, and then I rewatched the instrumentality scene in EOE, with the multiple Reis gathering everyone's souls.


Rei/Lilith gathering souls:



and the final scene where Shinji saw Rei one last time hovering over the red sea.

In EOE:



then i came to a realization. In NGE Shinji was PREDESTINED to fail. He was never going to win, he was never going to get a happy ending. Instrumentality with him, Rei and lilith at the center of it was ALWAYS going to happen, and there was literally nothing he could have done to avert it. He was doomed to fail from day one, and everything he did could have only pushed him closer to the end. The appearance of Rei at the beginning and the end of thes series are bookmarks, but they would not have existed if instrumentality had not occurred. That is Rei would not have appeared to Shinji if he had any hope of defeating the angels, and averting instrumentality, any hope of getting out of it with a happy ending.

Now how does this theme of fate and predestination apply to the Rebuilds? and How will this play out in Final? For in 1.11 we get a repeat of the same vision that Shinji saw in in the first episode of NGE. the same vision that would not have appeared if Instrumentality with Shinji and Rei at the center of it could have been averted.

Here is where an issue with Final arises. If Anno chose to put this detail here as a shout out to the original series, or as a mere aesthetic choice. and instrumentality does NOT occur in Final. then it could very well be interpreted as a lack of narrative conviction. Not to mention be a bit of a plothole. On the other hand however, if the theme of predestination does still apply to the Rebuilds this also causes a few problems.


If instrumentality is STILL going to happen regardless of Shinji's actions good or bad, and we are destined to endure a repeat of the tragic ending we already had with EOE. Then what was the point of the previous Three movies building up to Final? What was the point of deviating from the plot of the original series if we were only going to get a repeat of EOE with CGI and slight plot details changed for the Rebuild-verse?

Don't get me wrong, I like EOE. I think its a great final act to a great tragic narrative. But we already experienced that depressingly dark ending with every character we've come to love dying once, so why would we want to experience a watered down version of the same thing?

Shinji doesn't deserve to lose everything again. He never asked for any of this. he never deserved to be tricked into killing everyone, he never deserved to have everyone he knew and loved turn against him for something that wasn't (at least not intentionally) his fault. He deserves a happy ending after all he's been through.

But if the theme of predestination is still present in the Rebuilds, should we honestly expect a happy ending for Shinji's story arc? Even when Shinji's vision of Rei appears to Nip in the bud the very hope for instrumentality being averted, and by extension any hope for Shinji getting a happy ending?




Maybe I expected too much when I said I wanted Shinji to get a happy ending. After all, in Eva there are usually no happy endings. Just less sad ones. But until final comes out, I'm still hoping for the best, hoping Anno has not trolled us, and trying to stay optimistic.

Comment below. and let me know what you think about predestination in the Rebuilds. If you think I am wrong, Tell me how. If you think I am right, try to be constructive and do not lambast those who choose to hope.Thank you

[one-eyed]

Most of the time I think that's right . Everything was useless and meaningless. I do not believe that EoE was a bittersweet and hopeful final. I always thought that was a depraved and sick nihilistic ending. In practice it was all predetermined : Humanity was doomed to be destroyed and to live in a Lotus Eater Machine forever, Gendo protected until the last second and gaining relief in the death and Shinji , accursed , failed, completely crazy and alone, would die hunger and thirst on a dead planet.

My only complaint is that I do not understand why Sohryuu left the Instrumentality. Never made ​​sense to me even with the explanations I 've heard and read.

I just hope that this time , if Anno repeat the obscenity that was EoE he has the decency to kill Shinji and let Gendo living alone and crazy in a dead planet with Humanity living forever " happy" as a world of addicted in Opium in their Paracosms for all eternity . Perhaps, Anno considered it an improvement. I would consider. Everyone finds (false) love in the end.

[Ray]

"most of the time?" please elaborate.

Anno would be the biggest hypocrite if he had Shinji killed off.

while I do believe EOE was depressing, but it did have a sliver of hope at the end of it. Even if it was covered in blood and horrendous manic depressive instrospection. It wasn't the ending I wanted for Shini, but it was like the ending of watchmen in that respect. Its up to the individual to interpret it the way they see fit.

[one-eyed]

Because I'm a realist, I cannot deny that EoE is probably a depraved and sick nihilistic ending, but also with the reappearance of Rei I think the cycle is over and predestination was sealed. Since the appearance of Rei all was guided by bizarre coincidences and mathematically impossible events. The "invisible hand" guiding everything. Ask the opinion of the Magi about the series and see that everything happened because it had to occur. In Q, Kaworu, the Angel of the hypothetical Free Will, speaks of destiny, and then this force is a fact (one old programming? Transformation of information circulating the world?), and it ends of EoE. The idea of choice was inserted into the program, mankind can leave the Paracosm if it wants to, but I do not think it will. Anno was too vague for that concept has an impact on me.

[Bagheera]

Because I'm a realist,

No, you're not. You call yourself a realist, but your arguments are nihilistic in the extreme. That is not realism.

[one-eyed]

I'm realistic: Shinji's conditions in EoE are too vague for me to consider "hopeful" . I think more likely to him die of hunger and thirst than rebuild the civilization. The situation is worse in Rebuilding.
I hate the concept of Instrumentality , looks every bit like using drugs to escape reality to my taste . I lost childhood friends for things like this . My vision of the "dream of paradise" of Gendo and SEELE is much like the world of Anti-Spirals in TTGL : an entire species in coffins , fed intravenously with nutrients and something like "liquid happiness" . Take the psychedelic garb , philosophical and psychological crap and what's left is this.
The Instrumentality is like all drugs , easier to avoid than getting out . Once inside , I think someone very difficult abdicate his dreams and face the harsh reality of rebuilding a devastated world . Why swap the comfort of a paracosm for a life of sacrifice and struggle to live in a world doomed ? I said I hate the concept , but I 'm realistic and I must admit I do not know if I would make the choice to leave.
And keep saying Sohryu would be one that would never leave . She broke her spirit how many times in the series ? Why did she go out ?
I do not know if Anno will play with Lotus Eater Machine again, but I think it will . This is the love that gets everyone in the end.

[ElMariachi]

Well, another interpretation is that Quantum!Rei came to existence in NGE when Rei became a god via her fusion with ADAM and just after merging with Lilith.

But in Rebuild by the time of Q, Rei is inside EVA-01, which is stated to have become a god in 2.0 when it awoke and started N3I, so it's possible that the Quantum!Rei from Rebuild was already "born".

Also, this version of Quantum!Rei seems to have more agency than just marking a "bookmark" with Shinji, her appearance to Rei Q in 3.0 can't be a coincidence.

Add to that all the changes brought to the Seeds of Life(4 ADAMs instead of one, Lilith apparently in cahoots with SEELE), and for the moment I wouldn't make any affirmation on what Quantum!Rei means for FINAL yet.

[Guy Nacks]

Humanity was doomed to be destroyed and to live in a Lotus Eater Machine forever, Gendo protected until the last second and gaining relief in the death and Shinji , accursed , failed, completely crazy and alone, would die hunger and thirst on a dead planet.

I shall leave you as you left me, as you left her.

Marooned for all eternity at the center of a dead planet.

Buried aliiiive.....buried aliiiive.

SPOILER: Show

ANNOOOOOOOOOOO!

[Ray]

@Mariachi

I intended it to be a discussion of a plot point that could potentially influence the outcome of Final.

I understand things like running time getting in the way. . .but you think quantum Rei would have been more obvious upfront if that were the case. Not to mention the fact that it technically wasn't instrumentality that happened in N3I.

Again, I'm trying to be open to alternate interpretations of Quantum Rei and attempting to be optimistic that my favorite character will get a happy ending of some sort. But it's hard.

Especially given the fact that we'll likely only have 90-120 minutes in Final to get all these plot threads sorted out and given some kind of closure. So if we aren't likely going to get closure given the runtime, can we expect Final to not be a downer ending like EOE?

[Sachi]

Even if Instrumentality happens in one way or another, it's not necessarily a BAD end. It could possibly get terminated again like in EoE, but this time Shinji might not be left stranded in a bleak wasteland. What if some terraforming shenanigans occur and the world becomes revitalized? What if the world is still a wasteland, but Shinji has finally grown into a strong enough person to work on communicating with his peers and to join together in rebuilding a civilization? Remember that Eva is dealing with powers and magical phenomenon beyond comprehension with the capability to alter and bend the world, for good and for bad. Mostly we've just bad, but there are still endless possibilities. That said, Eva is also a story that is encouraging growth and coming to terms with the real world, and the part of the real world is dealing with the bleakness.

The general theme of Rebuild thusfar, IMO, seems to point toward a positive ending. The story has taken a really dark turn, but that's because it was always meant to (this is Eva afterall); but there is still that hope for a GOOD end, which is what I'm pretty sure we're going to end with this time around. "Destroying the world is all too easy. Rebuilding, however, is not so simple." - Fuyutsuki

[Ray]

Given Fuyu is a broken jaded man who is still slavishly devoted to a psychopath who tricked his own son into commiting genocide, even 14 years after the fact I'm taking that with a big grain of salt.

It's been pretty much established in 3.0 in concrete that revitalizing the earth and bringing back everyone Shinji (unintentionally) killed. Is out of the question, the title of the film itself is called You Can (NOT) Redo for crying out loud! It would be a lack of narrative conviction to have a dieu ex machina in 4.0 when the previous film stated that such a thing clearly doe jsn't exist. It'd be like Darth Vader not being Luke's father. Or Bruce Willis not really being a ghost

No turn could have been This dark. I give props to Anno for pulling the biggest plot twist in the history of anime. But there is such a thing as crossing a point of no return. Shinji is guilty of an unforgivable crime, Rei is likely dead, Misato hates him and put a damn bomb on his neck, everyone he loves is either dead or has moved past the point of caring for him as a human being, even people genuinely trying to be nice like Sakura have to hold bck their hatred, since he's the reason the world is now a wasteland. He will never have a normal life, much less find love. Bleak, doesn't begun to describe the situation. I honestly cannot see how any resolution could be positive.

I understand the real world is full of bleakness. But one thing exists in real life that doesn't exist in Eva. Forgiveness. That's the one thing 3.0 established. If you sin, you will be held accountable. Damn your intent, and damn your sincere attempts to find forgiveness. The fact he was predestined to end up in this situation makes it even more sad.

Sorry for being a pessimistic douche. Just had to get that out of my system. I'm taking this way too seriously. Its just a movie, and I'll always have the original series. Who knows, maybe 4.0 will subvert all my expectations and give Shinji a happy ending. But given Instrumentality is likely going to happen I'm steeling myself and preparing myself for anything.

[ElMariachi]

@ Ray : The theory of your topic is that Quantum!Rei's presence in Rebuild means that Instrumentality will happens no matter what the characters will attempt.

And my answer is that while it's indeed a possibility, that doesn't mean that the situation will ends exactly as in EoE. or starters we don't even know what Instrumentality entails in Rebuild, Kaworu's explanation of SEELE's HIP implies that it's very different from the one in NGE, so it's also very probably that Gendo's Instrumentality will be very different from what he planned in NGE.

Also, like in EoE, even if Instrumentality is set in motion to the point to happen, it's still possible to cancel it, like Shinji did in EoE. Hell in Rebuild it's even possible to stop dead freakin' Impacts, so stopping Instrumentality shouldn't be an insurmountable stretch.

More, unlike in NGE, Quantum!Rei appeared seemingly at random to Rei Q in the middle of the story, which could hint that Quantum!Rei have her own plan this time instead of just floating to Shinji and obediently let him decide what to do with her godly powers. And it's even possible that Quantum!Rei was already "born" in Rebuild when EVA-01 awoke.


Finally, and I already said it a lot of time, we don't know what crimes Shinji is held guilty of. WILLE never had the time to formally state Shinji's charges, and Kaworu's explanations of what happened don't held in the front of what we see in 2.0 and alter when they are in Lilith's Chamber. Hell we don't even know in what state the world really is beyond Tokyo-3, which was the ground zero of Third Impact!

Shinji did something bad yes, N3I alone brought a lot of damages and with it many problems, and WILLE obviously considers that he has done something that warrant a severe punishment(Ritsuko explixitely stated the DSS Choker as being a symbol of punishment), and his actions at the end of 3.0 also brought a lot of problems to WILLE, but I just can't accept this talk of Shinji responsible for obliterating the planet and with an eternally unforgivable sin on his shoulders that will warrant him eternal hate and infamy from everyone he cared for when so many evidences points toward another event that happened after N3I and we're not even sure of how the rest of the planet is faring. It doesn't seem to be that much at the brink of extinction seeing all the equipment and supplies WILLE possess.

[UrsusArctos]

Given Fuyu is a broken jaded man who is still slavishly devoted to a psychopath who tricked his own son into commiting genocide, even 14 years after the fact I'm taking that with a big grain of salt.

What Gendo and Fuyu are up to in 3.0 is not clear to me, although Gendo's total lack of reaction to Shinji being scorched by Ramiel in 1.0 makes me wonder if he really is something of a sociopath in this incarnation...however, I have to withold judgement on those two.

As for the End of Evangelion being "predestined", I wouldn't call it that at all. The response to Shinji's lament "I can't do anything" is "What are these hands for?" What happened at the end was not predestined the way Seele believes it to be, but deliberately brought about and driven to its conclusion. What Shinji does in the end this time might matter.

I guess the title of the fourth film will be either You Can (Not) Change or if Anno really means to go the full optimist route, You Can Change, since Shinji's hands can eventually bring about a change in his fate.

[Chuckman]

Even if Instrumentality happens in one way or another, it's not necessarily a BAD end. It could possibly get terminated again like in EoE, but this time Shinji might not be left stranded in a bleak wasteland. What if some terraforming shenanigans occur and the world becomes revitalized?

There's a good chance of this happening. The destroyed biosphere is much more of a thing in NTE and is one of the bigger Checkhov's guns in the movies. I'd be at minimum annoyed if the finale didn't address that somehow.

[Dataprime]

I'm totally racking my brain here & thinking of possibilities on how Shinji would redeem himself
in the end but seeing how 3.0 played out really awful for him I can't see that happening.

I mean don't get me wrong I would like to see a happy ending, we all would but,
I'm having a hard time seeing it right now.

Prove me wrong Anno

[Ray]

As for the End of Evangelion being "predestined", I wouldn't call it that at all. The response to Shinji's lament "I can't do anything" is "What are these hands for?" What happened at the end was not predestined the way Seele believes it to be, but deliberately brought about and driven to its conclusion. What Shinji does in the end this time might matter.

I guess the title of the fourth film will be either You Can (Not) Change or if Anno really means to go the full optimist route, You Can Change, since Shinji's hands can eventually bring about a change in his fate.

Its the eternal question that has bothered man for millennia, does man have control over his own destiny? If so is there any real point to his existence aside from his selfish desires? If God or Fate is in control, does man have any say over his place in the grand design? Are both fate and free will equally valid and truthful, at least to some extent? Do we have choice, or is choice an illusion?

In keeping with Eva's Christian aesthetics I'll use an example from Christianity. If God is truly omniscient and truly in control and foresees any and every event before it happens, then are we each destined to our respective salvation's and damnation's? Were all of our actions preordained to fufill Gods plan? If so can we choose at all to reject said plan, if we were all preordained to play a certain part in it, good or evil? That is a somewhat benign example however, since Christian beliefs tend to say God is out for mankind's best interest.

To use a secular and much darker example, Terry Gilliam's 12 Monkeys deals with a similar predicament to Shinji and Rei's. Bruce Willis's character is sent back in time to prevent a plague from destroying mankind. But it all turns out to be for naught, because his younger self witnessed his future self fail to prevent the plague from being released. If he could've prevented the plague from being created, he wouldn't have witnessed his future self fail, he wouldn't have lived through a dead world and been sent back in time in an attempt to prevent it, to be there for his past self to witness failing.

Its sort've the same thing with Shinji and Rei. By the very nature of her appearing he cannot change his fate. Instrumentality, or at the very least N3I with him at the center of it was always going to happen. If he could have run away, it would have been someone else setting off instrumentality, and someone else Quantum Rei appeared to. That's my two cents at least.

The point isn't whether or not it will be a bad or good ending. The point is questioning if Shinji had any choice in the matter. Whether or not we will get a reaffirmation of free will. Which doesn't appear to be a thing that exists in the Eva-verse.

[Sachi]

Given Fuyu is a broken jaded man who is still slavishly devoted to a psychopath who tricked his own son into commiting genocide, even 14 years after the fact I'm taking that with a big grain of salt.

That's being dishonest, then. You cannot just dismiss his words like that. If the words mean nothing coming from the person, remember that it can have significance coming from the author. That scene is probably the most significant role Fuyutsuki will have in these films, but it's still a very important scene wherein the audience is provided with a good deal of exposition, mixed in with a lot of vague themes and such. "Destroying the world is all to easy. Rebuilding, however, is not so simple." I feel like these words capture perfectly what Anno is attempting to do with these films.

It's been pretty much established in 3.0 in concrete that revitalizing the earth and bringing back everyone Shinji (unintentionally) killed. Is out of the question, the title of the film itself is called You Can (NOT) Redo for crying out loud! It would be a lack of narrative conviction to have a dieu ex machina in 4.0 when the previous film stated that such a thing clearly doe jsn't exist. It'd be like Darth Vader not being Luke's father. Or Bruce Willis not really being a ghost.

You're misunderstanding what I meant by terraforming and revitalizing the planet. I simply mean that it might be made to once again be suited for life, not that everybody will brought back and things made "good" again. Of course the dead cannot be brought back, and one cannot simply undo what has been done, but it's possible to recover after bad things have happened.

I understand the real world is full of bleakness. But one thing exists in real life that doesn't exist in Eva. Forgiveness. That's the one thing 3.0 established. If you sin, you will be held accountable. Damn your intent, and damn your sincere attempts to find forgiveness. The fact he was predestined to end up in this situation makes it even more sad.

The film sure talks a lot about forgiveness to not have any sort of statement about forgiveness. It seemed to show the wrong way to go about trying to be forgiven.

Eva is about being human, about how humans struggle, work together, and Q pays particular attention to how it feels to be ostracized by your peers. Shinji tried handling powers beyond his comprehension for reasons he wasn't clear about, and he messed up badly. That sounds like the human condition to me. In this stage in Eva we see a lot of bad humans not communicating properly and working against each other; is the next stage working past our differences, forgetting the past transgressions of others, or moving on to rebuild relationships and community?

[ElMariachi]

@ Ray : Anno is clearly a supporter of building your own path and fighting against "destiny". The most recent example is seen in Q, where the good guys is an organization called WILLE("will" in German), fighting to subvert the plans of the bad guys, SEELE and neo-NERV, deterministic people who want to force a Singularity on mankind because that's their "destiny".

And even Quantum!Rei's existence in NGE was a result of humans actions : there wasn't any god who decided that Third Impact and with it the "birth" of Quantum!Rei will happen no matter what(well, on a meta-level there was a God : Anno writing the script of the anime, but you understand what I mean ), as Third Impact was the result to the long machinations of human people who did everything they could so Third Impact would happen. Had SEELE and Gendo never wanted Third Impact, then Third Impact would had never happened!(unless they lose the Angel War of course!)

[Squigsquasher]

I shall leave you as you left me, as you left her.

Marooned for all eternity at the center of a dead planet.

Buried aliiiive.....buried aliiiive.

SPOILER: Show

ANNOOOOOOOOOOO!

That's brilliant. After FINAL, we can only hope Khara does Eva Trek: The Wrath of Anno.

[Ah Q]

Well, another interpretation is that Quantum!Rei came to existence in NGE when Rei became a god via her fusion with ADAM and just after merging with Lilith.

But in Rebuild by the time of Q, Rei is inside EVA-01, which is stated to have become a god in 2.0 when it awoke and started N3I, so it's possible that the Quantum!Rei from Rebuild was already "born".

Another possibility is that the Quantum!Rei we see in Rebuild is the Quantum!Rei from NGE. I know some people aren't a fan of the multiverse and sequel theories, but given Kaworu's suggestion at the end of 1.11 that he already knew Shinji, Kaworu's statement at the end of 2.22 that he would give Shinji true happiness "this time," and the possibility Kaworu raises in 3.33 of resetting the world (possibly through some Instrumentality-like process), I don't think those theories can be dismissed out of hand. The ending to the manga might also lend support to the notion that the various continuities are in fact related, in some way.

If Quantum!Rei can transcend time and space, then she may also be able to appear in other dimensions/universes/continuities. For that reason, we cannot take her presence in Rebuild as an absolute indication that anything like NGE/EoE Instrumentality will take place in this continuity.