How did Gaghiel know that Adam wasn't in Tokyo III?

[EmperorDog]

The previous angels (Sachieil, Shamshel and Ramiel) didn't know than there was only a decoy in Tokyo III, but Gaghiel was looking for the right thing. How did he know? Also, would the three other angels be able to make the Third Impact only with Lilith?

[Chuckman]

Presumably Gaghiel would have gone to Tokyo 3 as well, but the real Adam passed right by so the angel chased it instead. Alternately, Gaghiel was going after Unit 02 directly, which is a clone of Adam.

If Adam and Lilith send out some kind of signal and the angels are chasing that it stands to reason they'd stop chasing a more distant one to chase a closer one. Whatever it is that they detect that leads them to Japan must not be strong enough to be detected unless they're close it, otherwise they'd be going for the real thing.

[Kendrix]

Gaghiel probably just got lucky - 70% of the earth is ocean (Probably more in the EVA verse since the antarctic ice melted), so it's not much of a miracel that most of the newborn angels landed somewhere underwater (The more Kaiju-like ones (Save for Sandahon) are always explicitly stated to have approached from the sea, allthough then the more powerful ones could just randomly appear in space, or in Leliel' case, the middle of Tokyo-3...)

So it's not a far-fetched assumption to say that Gaghiel was en-route to Tokyo-3 when he happened to sense a SoL's presence a lot closer than he expected it... it seems to have been faint enough that he couldn't tell where exactly Adam was (Misato notes Gaghiel "searching" for something)

I don't think anyone other than Kaworu ever conciously realized that they were chasing the wrong taget.

Angel + Lillith would probably still cause an Impact, but who knows if it would be one favorable for the angels. Lillith is what switched classical life on and also an off button for it that might be useful to the angels to trigger, but Kaworu's reaction to identifying Lillith is basically, "Now I understand what's being played here, I've totally been had by the Lillim! [specifically, SEELE]"

The 24' conversation just complicates it all further. It's no really clear what Options Kaworu did, or didn't have left at this point, but if he'd try to go back up and get his hands on Gendo, there's a chick with an evenly matched ATF in his path...

[SEELE-01]

Well, I have 2 possibilities:

It could detect the real Adam because it was far from all the "noise" of the city, Geofront, Evas, etc...
It was after Eva 02...

In any case, it obviously wasn't going for the city... How on earth was it going to reach Tokyo III with it's fish form?

[Chuckman]

It may have had some means of traveling on land or changing shape that we never saw.

[K40s]

if he'd try to go back up and get his hands on Gendo, there's a chick with an evenly matched ATF in his path...

Interesting never thought of it this way, the endings from the NGE 2 video game suggest that if an angel got to Lilith an Impact would happen, it was theorized that Rei jumping in left us without knowing what would actually happen, but maybe Rei is supposed to join in if something like that were to happen, like Lilith's soul is forced to reunite or something...

Now that Kaworu would actually ignore Lilith and go back upstairs fighting Rei to get to Gendo/Adam Embryo, that gives a new perspective on why Rei is even there...

It may have had some means of traveling on land or changing shape that we never saw.

or blast the land creating a water corridor...

[The Eva Monkey]

Narrative?

Discussion of the motives, communication, and directives of the Angels is always such a murky topic.

Because that's what the writers wanted to happen is what I say.

[Rodeo]

Weren't the Angels originally meant to simple anti-Eva weapons? The idea that the Angels were in fact searching for Adam was probably something they came up with quite late into the show's production. The early draft for episode 24 confirms that the true identity of the white giant was a last minute asspull, it never was meant to be anyone other than Adam. If this is true, Sachiel Shamshel and Ramiel weren't looking for anything in particular since the basement as far as the story was concerned at that point in time, was completely empty.

[Monk Ed]

The early draft for episode 24 confirms that the true identity of the white giant was a last minute asspull

It's heavily suggestive, but not ironclad -- what if the Kaworu in that draft of the story simply didn't have the same capacity he did in the final draft to recognize Lilith correctly? Maybe at that time the thinking was that they should save the revelation for the episode after that. After all, even in the final draft, Kaworu didn't realize it till he was right up close to the thing. And Sachiel was the Third Angel from the start, there was always going to be something which was the Second Angel.

Regardless, narratively speaking, prior to the (possibly erroneous) revelation that an Angel coming in contact with Adam would cause Third Impact, we simply had no idea why the Angels were coming to Tokyo 3. Even if the decision to turn the white giant in the basement into Lilith really was a last-minute ass-pull, that's not the same as saying that in the staffs' mind at the time Sachiel and all who came to Tokyo 3 before Adam's arrival had nothing in mind. It could also be that at that time they (the staff) hadn't decided why they were coming.

[Falcon_of_the_Sun]

It's heavily suggestive, but not ironclad -- what if the Kaworu in that draft of the story simply didn't have the same capacity he did in the final draft to recognize Lilith correctly?

To me, the moment they speak about a cavity pretty much identical to the Antarctica's White Moon in Ep 21 is the moment you can already tell that "the giant white guy is in fact Lilith". It wouldn't make sense that they had a "moon" without a SoL, and if Adam ended up like we know he did, then the giant white guy must have been Lilith.
Add the Eva-01 contact experiment which WAS part of 23 OA and, knowing that Eva-01 is a Lilith clone, you are sorted.
There ain't no giant plothole o'doom in ep 24.

Plus

Now that Kaworu would actually ignore Lilith and go back upstairs fighting Rei to get to Gendo/Adam Embryo, that gives a new perspective on why Rei is even there...
View Original Post Chuckman wrote:
It may have had some means of traveling on land or changing shape that we never saw.
or blast the land creating a water corridor...

By that time, Rei III had already broken Gendo's glasses, thus commencing her rebellion. I doubt she would have protected Gendo. She just wanted to observe Kaworu because he himself had suggested they were the same.

[Rodeo]

It's heavily suggestive, but not ironclad -- what if the Kaworu in that draft of the story simply didn't have the same capacity he did in the final draft to recognize Lilith correctly? Maybe at that time the thinking was that they should save the revelation for the episode after that. After all, even in the final draft, Kaworu didn't realize it till he was right up close to the thing. And Sachiel was the Third Angel from the start, there was always going to be something which was the Second Angel.

Regardless, narratively speaking, prior to the (possibly erroneous) revelation that an Angel coming in contact with Adam would cause Third Impact, we simply had no idea why the Angels were coming to Tokyo 3. Even if the decision to turn the white giant in the basement into Lilith really was a last-minute ass-pull, that's not the same as saying that in the staffs' mind at the time Sachiel and all who came to Tokyo 3 before Adam's arrival had nothing in mind. It could also be that at that time they (the staff) hadn't decided why they were coming.

Of course there is no way for us to know for sure what they had in mind at the time the first episode went gold. They certainly didn't go in blind though, we know at least one possible backstory for the Angels had been conceived during the show's development, namely that they were constructed by an ancient civilization to combat the Evas. I think this explanation makes a lot of sense within the context of the first few episodes.
I'm guessing that Rei was supposed to be the Second Angel all along, her angelic nature was heavily foreshadowed since the very beginning in the opening itself. The same cannot be said of the existence of Lilith who came into the picture completely out of left field right at the end of the show through an utterly nonsensical twist, even Gendo and Ritsuko called that thing in the basement Adam. The existence of that episode 24 draft only serves to further my conviction that she simply wasn't thought up until well into the show's production.

[UrsusArctos]

I'm guessing that Rei was supposed to be the Second Angel all along, her angelic nature was heavily foreshadowed since the very beginning in the opening itself. The same cannot be said of the existence of Lilith who came into the picture completely out of left field right at the end of the show through an utterly nonsensical twist, even Gendo and Ritsuko called that thing in the basement Adam. The existence of that episode 24 draft only serves to further my conviction that she simply wasn't thought up until well into the show's production.

But Rei and Kaworu are hardly 'normal' even by Angel standards. If Rei was meant to be the Second Angel all along, why was she so human? They got the right idea with Kaworu, turning him into Adam's vessel. And if Rei was the second Angel all along, there would be a whole lot of issues - how exactly does an Angel pilot an Eva and look like a pilot's long-dead mom?

Lilith was never really left-field, especially since the missing Second Angel was always there in the numbering. It's just that the question "Who or what is that second Angel?" never got answered until 24. And in a way, Rei is the Second Angel, being the vessel of Lilith's soul. I can't call it left-field at all, honestly!

[SoryuUberAlles]

Of course there is no way for us to know for sure what they had in mind at the time the first episode went gold. (snip)

It's heavily suggestive, but not ironclad -- what if the Kaworu in that draft of the story simply didn't have the same capacity he did in the final draft to recognize Lilith correctly? (snip)

I'm so glad this was brought up but this is all slightly off. It's actually the script directions and Gendo stating/heavily implying. Add that to Kaji's statement in episode 15, it pretty strongly implies the creators did in fact change their minds at the last minute. I don't think there's any other evidence that the Terminal Dogma giant is Lilith elswhere in the show .

The logic for Kaworu's last minute actions are somewhat more explicitly the philosophical motivations he states, instead of being just mere commiserations. The episodes are given a much heavier death/suicide theme for more or less everyone involved - he did really just throw his life away, contrary to his angelic nature.

It wouldn't make sense that they had a "moon" without a SoL, and if Adam ended up like we know he did, then the giant white guy must have been Lilith.

Actually, the fanon explanation for what Kaji's logic was is pretty decent - that he thought the white giant was produced from the Adam embryo he gave Gendo. Reconciling it with the hand embryo in 24 is no harder than explaining anything else about 24. I don't know if the Japanese Kaworu uses or the explicit script do finally state that the white giant is Lilith.

Not that I'm gonna push this theory much further because pretty every post-OA canon thing makes the white giant Lilith, from EoE to the NTE.

[ath]

To me, the moment they speak about a cavity pretty much identical to the Antarctica's White Moon in Ep 21 is the moment you can already tell that "the giant white guy is in fact Lilith". It wouldn't make sense that they had a "moon" without a SoL, and if Adam ended up like we know he did, then the giant white guy must have been Lilith.

That scene was added for the DC, though. The OA version of Episode 21 doesn't refer to the Antarctic underground cavern at all.

http://wiki.evageeks.org/Guides:Episode_21_OA_vs._DC

[SoryuUberAlles]

That scene was added for the DC, though. The OA version of Episode 21 doesn't refer to the Antarctic underground cavern at all.

http://wiki.evageeks.org/Guides:Episode_21_OA_vs._DC

Showing Unit-01 growing from Lilith was both added for the Director's Cut and then removed for the Renewal. What is going on here?

[Rodeo]

Lilith was never really left-field, especially since the missing Second Angel was always there in the numbering. It's just that the question "Who or what is that second Angel?" never got answered until 24. And in a way, Rei is the Second Angel, being the vessel of Lilith's soul. I can't call it left-field at all, honestly!

Left-field might be an exaggeration. Point is that the existence of this entity known as Lilith was never even hinted at for 23 episodes, this combined with the very bizarre way in which she was revealed is enough to make me very suspicious. I mean as far as plot twists go it amounts to "Mysterious MacGuffin turns out to be different mysterious MacGuffin... Yeah." It's not a shocking plot development, it's just confusing, the viewer has no idea what Adam was supposedly doing there in the first place.

But Rei and Kaworu are hardly 'normal' even by Angel standards. If Rei was meant to be the Second Angel all along, why was she so human? They got the right idea with Kaworu, turning him into Adam's vessel. And if Rei was the second Angel all along, there would be a whole lot of issues - how exactly does an Angel pilot an Eva and look like a pilot's long-dead mom?

Not seeing any problems here. Frankly, anything goes with the Angels.