england's 9/11 scare

[ice reaper]

seems like we have some political based minds around here so this is a nice opputunity (nice?) to see if we can pull off some debates.

today there were at least 25 arrests at Heathrow airport where passengers were found to be carrying one shit load of explosives with obvious intentions. since, all flights which would pass over London to make a landing/ take off have been canceled as to avoid 'mass murder'. it is currently believed that the plane which was about to be baurded was heading for america - ALL planes to and from america via heathrow are also suspended.

well, nice to see the police force doing good deeds again and without firing 9 times into someone's skull this time.....

let's talk people

[tinmeigut]

They should have team Rainbow take those bastards down.

Anyway the British intelligence agencies really did a good job, or else another world-shocking incident would make the headlines tomorrow. It seems MI5 and MI6 have been working real hard.

[drinian]

As usual, Wikipedia is trying to keep up with the facts as they unfold:
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_transatlantic_aircraft_plot[/url]

From the reports so far, it seems that the plotters were not arrested at the airport, nor with explosives in their posession. All that's known right now is that they planned to use some sort of liquid explosive. (I imagine that they hoped to smuggle two seemingly innocuous liquids past security that, when combined, could cause serious damage).

I'm holding off for a few more days to see the full story on this one. After all, the last large group of plotters arrested by the American FBI turned out to have been a bunch of disaffected teenagers who almost certainly wouldn't have followed through with their plans (and in fact were entrapped by the FBI into expanding them) Link here: [url]http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/06/23/miami.reax/index.html[/url]

While the indictment says the men plotted to "kill all the devils we can," they apparently had no weapons or equipment for such a task.

[Kaysow]

A pal was going to England today, and this was good enough reason to get cold feet.

[ice reaper]

i'll have to have a read of that.

yeah, things are usually manufactured out of rumour by the press straight after the incident so a day or two into the future, as you say, will see us better and, more importanntly, accurately informed.

They should have team Rainbow take those bastards down.

hehe, maybe a touch hastey. a bit of accidental fire into the odd limb on the other hand....

whatever the outcome, all leads are being taken to their full advantage since the 7th July stuff so the occasional innocent arrest happens. better innocents being arrested and then released than tens of thousands dieing when it could have been stopped without a single shot being fired. kudos to the best counter terrorists around.

[ice reaper]

A pal was going to England today, and this was good enough reason to get cold feet.

definately

[drinian]

whatever the outcome, all leads are being taken to their full advantage since the 7th July stuff so the occasional innocent arrest happens. better innocents being arrested and then released than tens of thousands dieing when it could have been stopped without a single shot being fired

If only that were the case -- not only does being arrested destroy lives, but intelligence services in the UK and US have shown a remarkable inability to admit that they were wrong, c.f. the number of inmates in Guantanamo who have not been brought to trial, the deporations to foreign countries by the CIA for torture-produced confessions, and of course last year's London Tube shooting.

Odds of being killed in a terrorist attack in the US/UK are pretty slim. Odds of (US) Constitutionally-guaranteed rights being abrogated in the name of "counterterrorism" are much higher, and can create a much longer-lasting problem -- not to mention the ill will generated among members of the Muslim community.

[ice reaper]

this has and most likely always will be the case, though i think we can all agree the US is the more reluctant party to refuse submitence. though the UK is definately used to refusing to admit wrong-doings were just that, but the use of deportaion and torture aided interigation is unheard of. i believe Guantanamo has been used by the UK authorities, but on a much lower and 'only when absolutely neccesary' level. though that judgement is in the hands of biased men.

anywho, i'm still satisfied what the CT's are doing is acceptable, under the circumsatnces and the likelyhood of being involved in a terrorist attack and being involved with CT raids is aren't in a good balance, it's the sign that they're doing their jobs. or at last making it look that way.

[Mr. Tines]

Even without a drop of explosive, they managed a good DDoS onto the whole airline system. At least they are fairly limited in their goals - a half-way clever terrorist group would have put a few belt-wearers into the inevitable ground-side crowds at the airports too.

Charlie Stross' Thought for the Day
http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/index.html

Security viewpoint on the larger picture: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/08/cato_on_the_ris.html

[DatDude]

I wonder twenty years from now how events like this will be viewed by histroy.

[Hexon.Arq]

I wonder twenty years from now how events like this will be viewed by histroy.

Quaintly.

[ice reaper]

Even without a drop of explosive, they managed a good DDoS onto the whole airline system. At least they are fairly limited in their goals - a half-way clever terrorist group would have put a few belt-wearers into the inevitable ground-side crowds at the airports too.

that WOULD have been a good idea - NOT condoning terrorism with that statement - but the job was already done: terrorism is about placing fear and disrest into the culture it is aimed at - generally The West - which these terrorists have very succesfully done even though they didn't come close to suceeding. and then public anouncements such as the ones Mr W B continues to make stating the obvious; that we are all in danger and these peoples' only objective is to kill and harm the 'people who love freedom', execute the purpuse the terrorists had.

as usual, the US govourment procedes to remain ignorent to the true threat, though it is reasonably understandable as they are new to the concept of terrorism in their own country.

no the other hand there is england that has had its fair share of terrorism in its history and justs gets really pissed off at everyone and makes shit load of rules to keep us 'safer' whilst arguably compromising mild freedom.......anyone seen V for Vendetta?

[drinian]

the true threat

?

You're right, though, this plot has been incredibly successful at sowing fear in the population, not by any efforts of their own, but through apparent massive stupidity on the part of Homeland Security in the US and whoever does the same thing in the UK.

Note that the ban on liquids in planes was actually instituted after the arrest of the only people on the planet known to want to attempt such a scheme. How long can this go on for? Are there eventually going to be arbitrary selective restrictions on liquids just as there are on sharp objects now?

As I said about a year ago during a similar debate, when are kung-fu masters going to be banned from airports? Their bodies are dangerous weapons. It's enough to make you wonder if the DHS wants the population in a constantly-growing state of fear.

[ice reaper]

the true threat

?

'true threat' was maybe a bit on the harsh side. instilling fear into the community - on an international level at times - when the leader of a country should be the epitome of strength and resiliance. you never heard of churchil going "sorry people; we're a bit fucked. those bombs are gonna keep coming, just hide underground for a while"

Note that the ban on liquids in planes was actually instituted after the arrest of the only people on the planet known to want to attempt such a scheme. How long can this go on for? Are there eventually going to be arbitrary selective restrictions on liquids just as there are on sharp objects now?

hehe, yeah bit of a cock up there, the threat's always been around so why not institute the restraints before hand? the problem is almost everything can be used as a weapon of some potentsy - at the moment all hand luguage is restricted except for your passport and baording card.

as for the kung fu masters.....guns. armed officials onbaord every single plane in or out bound from the UK or US. that's my prediction anyway. there are plenty of technologies which could be implemented so that passengers are safe and alowed their personal belongings along side them, but of course that's seen as too expensive when the other solution is just stopping people carrying 'clutter'.

things could really go downhill from here...

[AuthenticM]

I hate Bush and his followers. He should (and probably will) rot in hell. John Kerry should have won the last presidential race.

[drinian]

Ignoring the last post, since visceral hate isn't useful at all, I wanted to point out this interesting part of the Wikipedia page on the arrests:

Prior to the arrests, the plot was discussed at a high level of government, with Prime Minister Tony Blair knowing about it for months, and alerting President George Bush to the investigation on Sunday 6 August.

On 9 August, hours before the arrests, the Home Secretary John Reid gave a major speech to Demos (a British think-tank) hinting at a new round of anti-terror legislation and claiming that the country was facing "probably the most sustained period of severe threat since the end of the second world war". The following day he broke the news, the Prime Minister being abroad on holiday.

[ice reaper]

.....the prime minister put his holiday on hold because of all the business in lebenon, so that doesn't seem right...

as for knowing about this whole thing months in advance, 'anti-terror police' (as they're now being known) had started their surveilence of the suspects on the 31st December last year with high suspitions of this being the outcome. or so the british public is being led to believe through news broadcasts.

[Hexon.Arq]

Note that the ban on liquids in planes was actually instituted after the arrest of the only people on the planet known to want to attempt such a scheme. How long can this go on for? Are there eventually going to be arbitrary selective restrictions on liquids just as there are on sharp objects now?

What do you want? If they had placed a ban on liquids prior to the arrests, the operation would have been abandoned. One generally waits until the last minute so that any woodwork participants who may become apparent will do so without suspicion of being caught.

Not that I think the ban is going to make a cornshit of difference. It's more like you have to play mindgames with the American public in order to make them happy.

[drinian]

That is true. More level-headed people than me, like Bruce Schneier, are doing good analysis:
[url]http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/08/terrorism_secur.html[/url].

He also links to this editorial on fear, which I liked:
[url]http://kfmonkey.blogspot.com/2006/08/wait-arent-you-scared.html[/url]

[drinian]

So long as this remains the "terrorist threat thread," thought I would post this. Remember yesterday or the day before when the FBI thought a bridge in Michigan was a target? Turns out that apparently taking pictures of landmarks is a crime now, and that the Coast Guard can be called out because someone has pictures of a bridge on their digital camera.

[url]http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4117318.html[/url]

The men are each being held on $750,000 bail and are charged with providing material support for terrorist acts and terrorism surveillance of a vulnerable target. (emphasis mine)

At least it looks like this mess is going to get sorted out quickly, but what on earth kind of terrorist plot would require 1,000 cell phones, anyway?