Was Kaworu really being truthful throughout Q...?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Was Kaworu really being truthful throughout Q...?

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Postby WunderBah » Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:41 pm

About N3I's trigger despite his comment on the epicenter of N3I in the chamber? Access through Lilith's barrier with only Eva-13? Etc?

I realize the first point has been debated a lot, but as for others, i can't help but get the feeling Kaworu might be hiding somethings important to himself. Whether its intentional or not, i cannot say, what do you guys believe?

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Postby TheFriskyIan » Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:50 pm

View Original PostWunderBah wrote:I realize the first point has been debated a lot, but as for others, i can't help but get the feeling Kaworu might be hiding somethings important to himself. Whether its intentional or not, i cannot say, what do you guys believe?

I'm sorry but Kaowru blatantly bullshitted Shinji about Near-Third Impact. He says Shinji is to blame for actual Third Impact because of N3I but he conveniently leaves out his role in stopping N3I with the Mark 06, and when they were in Lilith's Chamber he conveniently left out how he was the original pilot of the Mark 06 when Shinji asked about it. I highly doubt Kaworu just happened to forget twice to bring himself up about these things.
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Re: Was Kaworu really being truthful throughout Q...?

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Postby Alpha » Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:20 am

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:I'm sorry but Kaowru blatantly bullshitted Shinji about Near-Third Impact. He says Shinji is to blame for actual Third Impact because of N3I but he conveniently leaves out his role in stopping N3I with the Mark 06, and when they were in Lilith's Chamber he conveniently left out how he was the original pilot of the Mark 06 when Shinji asked about it. I highly doubt Kaworu just happened to forget twice to bring himself up about these things.


I fail to see the importance of that information overall. Eveidently Mark.06 stopped Eva Unit-01's awakening, but not neccesary whatever impact it had on Lilith. And as he said, The Mark.06 was made autonomous, whatever that means, so he was no longer the pilot. Kaworu doesnt seem to posses the atachment and identification to his Eva that someone like Asuka and Shinji do. And, once again, the information would not have changed a thing.
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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:09 am

Well, he does tell that Shinji was the key/catalyst of the Third Impact, implying that it was his fault if the Hakone region and maybe the whole world got a lovecraftian makeover, yet call Lilith's Chamber the epicenter of Third Impact, which involved the 12th Angel, two Angels after the one Shinji defeated that supposedly triggered Third Impact.

That, and no forgetting the fact that when he stopped N3I at the end of 2.0, the Moon was still normal and NERV HQ still attached to the ground.

So it's clear that something else happened after N3I, and Kaworu conveniently left out the days, or weeks, if not even months during which which Mark.06 was made autonomous, the 11th Angel dealt with and the 12th Angel involved in whatever happened in Lilith's Chamber.

Fortunately for him, by the time he mentioned that Lilith's Chamber is Third Impact's epicenter, Shinji was too distraught and focused on finding the spear to gain redemption to notice the contradiction.

That's another force of this movie which add replay value : first time you see it, of course you tend to believe what Kaworu said about Shinji's role in Third Impact... until he talks about the epicenter, which logically should make the audience have a double take at the contradiction. Then you see again the movie with that contradiction in mind, and you notice that there are many things in his speeches and behavior that doesn't add, like how EVA-01 was sent to space without the spear and without awakening, how he never even talk about SEELE to Shinji(and they are the mastermind behind all this madness) but continuously talk about thwarting NERV's plans(ie Gendo), how he talked about betraying Gendo right in the middle of Shinji's room, even though there are probably monitoring devices (in case he tries a suicide for example) and Gendo and Fuyu had means to track them even when they go outside to see the landscape, or how Gendo and Fyu still call him "SEELE's boy" even after his death when he supposedly betrayed his masters.


I even created a topic where I theorized that Kaworu might have been still loyal to SEELE all along and the story about thwarting Gendo an act to motive Shinji to pilot with him, all of this because Kaworu genuinely thinks that Instrumentality is the way to bring Shinji happiness. (shameless self-promotion :tongue: )
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Postby Th3Marauder » Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:00 pm

No, absolutely not. Kaworu is just plainly a liar, especially to Shinji. He may love Shinji, as a god loves his creations, but he is very clearly working to his own goals. We can tell on multiple viewings of both episode 24 and 3.33 that Kaworu is not telling Shinji the whole truth, but from Shinji's point of view, he'd believe anything if it meant making things ok, hence why he keeps going for the Spears.

So no, Kaworu was not honest at all. He made it up to get Shinji on his side against Gendo and WILLE.

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Re: Was Kaworu really being truthful throughout Q...?

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Postby Rei IV » Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:15 pm

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:I'm sorry but Kaowru blatantly bullshitted Shinji about Near-Third Impact. He says Shinji is to blame for actual Third Impact because of N3I but he conveniently leaves out his role in stopping N3I with the Mark 06, and when they were in Lilith's Chamber he conveniently left out how he was the original pilot of the Mark 06 when Shinji asked about it. I highly doubt Kaworu just happened to forget twice to bring himself up about these things.

Pretty much this. It also goes a long very well with Kaworu being somewhat rather manipulative.

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Postby unitM » Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:55 pm

It's important to note that Kaworu is an angel first and foremost and a human second. That sets up a very strange relationship between him and Shinji - not quite alien(pun intended), not quite enemy(for Kaworu's own reasons), and yet, not quite friendly, since he conveniently leaves out a few truths that could have really helped Shinji's state of mind. Shinji's goals inside of his manipulated world and Kaworu's goals aren't necessarily mutually exclusive either.

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Postby Th3Marauder » Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:57 am

View Original PostunitM wrote:It's important to note that Kaworu is an angel first and foremost and a human second. That sets up a very strange relationship between him and Shinji - not quite alien(pun intended), not quite enemy(for Kaworu's own reasons), and yet, not quite friendly, since he conveniently leaves out a few truths that could have really helped Shinji's state of mind. Shinji's goals inside of his manipulated world and Kaworu's goals aren't necessarily mutually exclusive either.


I would say you're right, but you're also not, but the way you're not right is just me being so so picky. I would say Kaworu is an angel first, human second, because he's not truly an angel, and he's not truly a human. He's the recovered soul of Adam in a Lilin body, so imagine his psyche as like a warped version of Rei. Kaworu seems fully aware that he is in fact Adam, and he acts on those intentions, but because of the fact that he is Adam, a Seed of Life, the way he talks and acts seems very odd and sometimes inconsistent. The point I'm trying to make is that Kaworu operates differently to a human, not secondly. He was grown in a lab, a soulless husk, and was given life for a single purpose, only to then seemingly go back on it. Kaworu, for a character with such little screentime in comparison to the others, is distressingly complicated.

I apologise for that big spiel off your comment :P

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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:21 am

@ Th3Marauder : Here you're talking about the NGE version of Kaworu, in Rebuild he seems very different in that he immediately set his objective as making Shinji happy even though he didn't even met the guy, and he doesn't even seems to consider his place in the Angel/Lilin war and which side he should chose, in fact he doesn't even seem to give a shit about anything that isn't Shinji's happiness, not even his "siblings" the Angels or the Lilin that his NGE counterpart found so fascinating and worthy of inheriting Earth!
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Postby CJD » Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:20 am

While I can't for the life of me figure out why Kaworu would have lied, unless they retcon the shit out of 2.0's ending then he seriously left some major deets out of his explanation. There's just too much in 3.0 that doesn't fit for him to have told the whole truth.
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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:45 am

View Original PostCJD wrote:While I can't for the life of me figure out why Kaworu would have lied

One theory is that Kaworu genuinely thought that Instrumentality is the path to Shinji's happiness, and resigned to lie to Shinji to make it happen while the spear of Cassius repairs the world, so Shinji won't think that Kaworu can't be trusted and won't be tempted to reject Instrumentality.

More about this here.(shameless self-promotion! :D )
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Postby Charsi » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:02 pm

View Original PostCJD wrote:While I can't for the life of me figure out why Kaworu would have lied, unless they retcon the shit out of 2.0's ending then he seriously left some major deets out of his explanation. There's just too much in 3.0 that doesn't fit for him to have told the whole truth.


Why would he lie? To manipulate Shinji. Why? To pursuade him to pilot Eva, to bring him happiness, through Eva 13 + Longinus + Cassius and getting a do-over. In case it's not obvious I think Kaworu lied his ass off... but am allowing for the possibility that it may have been a horrible manipulation for a good intention.

Unfortunately, you can not redo. Kaworu realizes at the last moment that the spears are a trap. But Shinji had ALSO been manipulated by Fuyutsuki to the point where not having a do-over is unthinkable. He is harassed by Asuka to the point he didn't have time to think. End result: he wouldn't listen to reason, not even Kaworu.

If Asuka hadn't attacked, or if Kaworu had lifted a finger to handle it, the situation might have remained calm enough for Kaworu to talk Shinji out of irrational actions. But Kaworu was too busy thinking and Asuka was too busy trying to kill him - and Shinji was too distraught from Fuyutsuki's info dump - to spend time second guessing things.
Last edited by Charsi on Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:13 pm

^
Someone who gets Shinji's behaviour.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:33 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Someone who gets Shinji's behaviour.

Is this a rare occurrence or something? :p
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby pwhodges » Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:31 pm

There are those who seem to feel that his behaviour at that point is indefensible - I guess that was a gentle dig at them!
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Postby CJD » Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:37 pm

^Cross generational internet brofist.

View Original PostCharsi wrote:Unfortunately, you can not redo.


See, now I don't buy this. If Kaworu lied to manipulate Shinji into using the spears, then that's an entirely different situation than lying about the spears. The reality is Kaworu's conflict isn't "You can't redo" it's "You can't redo with these particular spears." This does not preclude that you can redo with the right two spears, which is what he had anticipated. So Kaworu was either lying about the ability to redo, unlikely given how he reacts when he finds out the spears are wrong, misinformed, which I see no evidence to indicate besides the possibility existing conflicting thematically with the series (debatable since we can't be sure of the theme until 4.0), or that you can, in fact, redo.

I suppose that's a topic for it's own thread, though.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:03 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:There are those who seem to feel that his behaviour at that point is indefensible

I think the whole idea of framing it in terms of judgments and defenses is inherently flawed, but that is neither here nor there...

View Original PostCJD wrote:^Cross generational internet brofist.

The "brofist" reinforces lame bro-y gender partitions. A plain ol' fistbump should suffice.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby pwhodges » Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:14 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:I think the whole idea of framing it in terms of judgments and defenses is inherently flawed,

Quite.
A plain ol' fistbump should suffice.

Another way of doing it: o/ , with the response: \o

o/
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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:38 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:^
Someone who gets Shinji's behaviour.

There's no doubt that Shinji has been previously manipulated by Gendo and Fuyutsuki so he would be in the worst mindset possible at the moment Kaworu would discover the trap, and he also planed the confrontation against WILLE(Gendo did say that Misato's actions were withing expectation, and I doubt that he would had missed a giant bird skeleton cyborg flying around neo-NERV during various days), and that eve, thought the ultimate decision to pull out the spear are Shinji's responsibility, I hope that Misato will take into account those attenuating circumstance when judging him.

But anyway, if Kaworu lied to him, even if it's by omission, and looking at all the gaps and contradictions in his explanations, it's very probable that he did lied to him, then that mean that there was a part in his plan that he feared Shinji would not accept, and he resolved to lie to him "for his own good", because Kaworu's intended path for Shinji's happiness is something that he would not accept had he told him the truth. And except Instrumentality, I don't think what else it could be.

And not being honest with Shinji, trying to bring him what he perceive as the path for his happiness even though Shinji may not want it, was ultimately Kaworu's downfall, and I'm sure that Gendo counted on Kaworu being too afraid of Shinji rejecting his plan to tell him the whole truth, which left him vulnerable when the stress of learning that the spears are the wrong ones will add with the stress of the battle.
I know that Shinji was called a brat by Asuka and that pretty much everyone treated him like a child by not directly telling him WTF is happening, but I think that the movie has made clear that acting on other's back isn't how you resolves your problems, even if you think that it's for the other's good, and that's right for everyone in Q : WILLE for not immediately telling everything to Shinji, Kaworu for lying to Shinji, Shinji himself for being obsessed by being the one to fix everything even if it means to fight WILLE instead of working with them, Asuka for not even trying to listen to Shinji has to say and trying to tell him why he's doing is wrong instead of immediately trying to put him down, since apparently he had enough talent to ward her off until her battery is depleted.

Without mutual trust, all of the good guys will keep playing right into Gendo hands.
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Postby CJD » Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:23 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:The "brofist" reinforces lame bro-y gender partitions. A plain ol' fistbump should suffice.


Brohood transcends gender, Reichu.

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Another way of doing it: o/ , with the response: \o

o/


This is new to me but I'll play along.

\o
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