Shinji is the culprit in 3rd Impact + Kaworu's dead

[Pnnn]

Hi! I was rewatching all of the Rebuilds series and found out some really odd details. If those have been already spoted out, please tell me (and also, sorry for my bad english skills ;; )

Well, let's start.

First of all, Shinji is, indeed, the culprit behind the third impact. Why? Well, all of the people probalby became FOIs instead of LCL like in EoE, and FOIs are a copy of Unit01. Also, Mk. 06 sacrificed itself in order to stop Third Impact, what doesn't make sense, since SEELE's original plan was in fact to end everything in Third Impact, maybe they went desperate and used Mk. 06 to stop NERV's plans, but well, we can clearly see in 3.0 that SEELE and NERV are still togheter (even though it's one-sided). So we can say that it was Kaworu who has stopped Third Impact himself. Even though he has said in 3.0 that Mk. 06 has been 'changed to an autonomous-type', it makes no sense for SEELE to build a control system to just throw it away in Mk. 06's second usage, and using the term 'autonomous' can be just a trick to hide it's true pilot (see below).
Now back to Shinji, we can clearly see him at the beggining of 3.0 in a state kinda like he was in EoE, so humanity had no more value for him, as he just wanted to sacrifice everything in order to save Rei in 2.0. Putting this Shinji in EoE's scenario, would he really even care in stopping Third Impact? Guess no, he would probably want to stay with Rei.
From this point on, we can clearly see that Shinji is in fact the most possible culprit of the Third Impact. Now, we can clearly see in 3.0 that NERV's ruins has some 'scars of battle', but what would anyone be fighting against? The scenario reminds me SO MUCH of the JSPD attack against Unit02 in EoE, so yes, maybe they were trying to stop an EVA, and this EVA would be Unit01, who, during 2.0, was in complete control of Shinji, differently from episode 19 from the original anime.
There's also some strange things that Shinji shouldn't know about the 14 years time skip. It's like he being the first one to call out Mk. 06 name in the movie before anyone does, even though he has never seen nor never heard about this Evangelion, or maybe has he?
So now we can kinda trace what happened: 12th angel attacked, Mk. 06, Unit02 or Unit08 removed the Cassius' Spear from Unit01 in order to try to stop the angel. Shinji awakes and continues the Third Impact for 'Rei's sake' (?). Lilith awakes because of the 12th angel and starts true Third Impact togheter with Shinji and Unit01. Mk. 06 sacrifices itself using the two lances in order to stop Third Impact, so Shinji could be happy.

Now, for the other thing, Kaworu is dead. Not only once though.

I just noticed something really odd about Kaworu. We, of course, can see that there's a lot of 'boxes' in the moon that, probably, contains Kaworu's clones or otherselves. We don't know precisely how many boxes there were, but from what we see, there's five or six boxes open. Now, time for a crazy theory! Every Kaworu is just a personification of an Evangelion, yes.
Now, how? Well, how could 5~6 Kaworus die before the story starts? I think it's not possible, nor the moon being aware of a time travel, as some people are talking about Kaworu being a time traveler. So, in 3.0 we can clearly see that Kaworu is just spotted as the Thirteenth Angel once he's inside of Unit13. Also no one knows about him. How, in the Earth, would no one in WILLE know about an Eva pilot that, probably, could have spent some time with them between 2.0 and 3.0? My guess is that they never knew about Kaworu (so calling Mk. 06 autonomous isn't actually an error, but a misconception) or the Kaworu they knew has been killed inside of Mk. 06. Other thing that has been bugging me is that nor Unit01, nor Mk. 06 nor 'Kaworu 06' has been spotted as an Angel by NERV in 2.0, why? Because they already have been registred as allies in MAGI. Unit01 is clearly shown as some kind of Blood-Type Blue in 1.0, but she has never been spotted as an Angel, just like Kaworu. He has only been spotted as an angel once inside Unit13, and as the Thirteenth Angel, so from this, we can guess that once changing from the First to the Thirteenth Angel, he has also changed from the personification of Unit01 to Unit13, and that's MAYBE why Shinji cannot synch with Unit01 anymore, she has lost her 'personification'.

That's all for now, I think. If there's something I forgot now, I'll add later.
See you! (And sorry for every English mistake. ;; )

[ElMariachi]

First of all, Shinji is, indeed, the culprit behind the third impact. Why? Well, all of the people probalby became FOIs instead of LCL like in EoE, and FOIs are a copy of Unit01. Also, Mk. 06 sacrificed itself in order to stop Third Impact, what doesn't make sense, since SEELE's original plan was in fact to end everything in Third Impact, maybe they went desperate and used Mk. 06 to stop NERV's plans, but well, we can clearly see in 3.0 that SEELE and NERV are still togheter (even though it's one-sided). So we can say that it was Kaworu who has stopped Third Impact himself. Even though he has said in 3.0 that Mk. 06 has been 'changed to an autonomous-type', it makes no sense for SEELE to build a control system to just throw it away in Mk. 06's second usage, and using the term 'autonomous' can be just a trick to hide it's true pilot (see below).

Remember that the 12th Angel was inside the Mark.06 when EVA-13 freed it from the spears in Q, and that Central Dogma had a self-destruct mechanism configured to detonate if an Angel is detected inside Lilith's Chamber(that's why Ritsuko freaked out when Zeruel ate EVA-00 and took its bio-signature : it won't be registered as an Angel and Central Dogma won't explode), so it's also very probable that Mark.06 was possessed by the 12th Angel and used as a vessel to reach Lilith. Besides, the positions of Mark.06's hands on the spears in Q is more of trying to pull out the spears(arms stretched), not impling itself(the arms would be bent and the hands closer to the body, like EVA-13's when it impaled itself)

Finally, remember that after stopping EVA-01, there was also an 11th Angel that was dealt with before the 12th, so at that moment it was at least Mark.06's third sortie. It's perfectly possible that after the 11th Angel(or even after N3I), SEELE decided to play it safe and installed an autonomous model on the Mark.06 so Kaworu could stay safe in NERV HQ.(and maybe also keep an eye on Gendo). SEELE's plans weren't to simply end everything with an Impact, but to accomplish a ritual of massive artificial evolution using the power of an Impact, and it required a precise and controlled process which includes all the Angels dealt with, one of them kept so their special Evangelion(here Mark.06) could absorb it and awake, at which point it could launch an Impact that would be controlled through a spear so Instrumentality could succeed, Shinji's "savage" Near Third Impact was everything but controlled, that's why it had to be stopped.

A more probable option is that the Third Impact that left the Tokyo-3 area in the state we see in Q was due to the 12th Angel managing to reach Lilith via Mark.06 and started an Angel-based Impact which would exterminate the Lilin, and was stopped by other Evas(Unit 08? 02? 07? A team effort?) which impaled it with the spears to stop Third Impact.

As for the FoIs, I admit there isn't any clue yet of why they are at EVA-01's image. One theory was that in Rebuild, like in NGE, EVA-01 was made from Lilith and/or Rei possessed Lilith's soul, and since she was inside EVA-01, the FoIs took the image of the body where the "Mother Soul" resides, EVA-01, instead of Reis, like Lilith's body and her transition guides did in EoE(that would also explain why the decapitated head of Lilith in Q also morphed into Rei's head)

Now back to Shinji, we can clearly see him at the beggining of 3.0 in a state kinda like he was in EoE, so humanity had no more value for him, as he just wanted to sacrifice everything in order to save Rei in 2.0. Putting this Shinji in EoE's scenario, would he really even care in stopping Third Impact? Guess no, he would probably want to stay with Rei.

Sorry, but that's false : one of the first thing he requested when he was released from his restrains was to pilot EVA-01 to go help Asuka, and he was clearly overjoyed at seeing her alive and well in the interrogation room, since he didn't know if she survived Bardiel. He also answered Asuka's call for help during Operation US and saved her(albeit unconsciously). Not something he would have done if he really didn't cared at all about anyone else than Rei.

Also, he made it abundantly clear that he didn't had any idea that his Eva was starting an Impact while he was rescuing Rei : see his reaction when he saw the state of Tokyo-3 and how he said various times that he didn't wanted any of this to happen but just wanted to save Rei, also how he didn't recognized the Door of Guf when EVA-13 opened it, even though EVA-01 also opened it 14 years ago.

From this point on, we can clearly see that Shinji is in fact the most possible culprit of the Third Impact. Now, we can clearly see in 3.0 that NERV's ruins has some 'scars of battle', but what would anyone be fighting against? The scenario reminds me SO MUCH of the JSPD attack against Unit02 in EoE, so yes, maybe they were trying to stop an EVA, and this EVA would be Unit01, who, during 2.0, was in complete control of Shinji, differently from episode 19 from the original anime.
There's also some strange things that Shinji shouldn't know about the 14 years time skip. It's like he being the first one to call out Mk. 06 name in the movie before anyone does, even though he has never seen nor never heard about this Evangelion, or maybe has he?
So now we can kinda trace what happened: 12th angel attacked, Mk. 06, Unit02 or Unit08 removed the Cassius' Spear from Unit01 in order to try to stop the angel. Shinji awakes and continues the Third Impact for 'Rei's sake' (?). Lilith awakes because of the 12th angel and starts true Third Impact togheter with Shinji and Unit01. Mk. 06 sacrifices itself using the two lances in order to stop Third Impact, so Shinji could be happy.

EVA-01 was in complete control of Shinji only until it reached Zeruel's core, from here he was too busy diving into said core to control his Eva, therefor he couldn't be the one who started the Impact, something else did it(EVA-01 itself, or maybe Yui), and from the moment he got Rei in his arms, he was completely content and lost consciousness, in fact one of his first sentences in Q is that he was sure that he was "saving Ayanami", confirming that the moment in the blueish space with Rei in his arms was his very last conscious moment until 14 years later, I don't see at all why he would consciously or unconsciously try to trigger another Impact during the time skip since for him he was already reunited with Rei.
Besides if he really did that, I think that WILLE or Kaworu later would had say it to him, that's not a little detail.

And Shinji wasn't the one to call Mark.06 by name, but Kaworu :

01:07:32 {Shinji} Huh? Is that an Eva?
01:07:35 {Kaworu} Yes, the Eva Mark.06.

Really, it's one of the few things we're 100% in Q : that the moment he has Rei in his arms in 2.0 was Shinji's last conscious moment.

Now, for the other thing, Kaworu is dead. Not only once though.

I just noticed something really odd about Kaworu. We, of course, can see that there's a lot of 'boxes' in the moon that, probably, contains Kaworu's clones or otherselves. We don't know precisely how many boxes there were, but from what we see, there's five or six boxes open. Now, time for a crazy theory! Every Kaworu is just a personification of an Evangelion, yes.
Now, how? Well, how could 5~6 Kaworus die before the story starts? I think it's not possible, nor the moon being aware of a time travel, as some people are talking about Kaworu being a time traveler. So, in 3.0 we can clearly see that Kaworu is just spotted as the Thirteenth Angel once he's inside of Unit13. Also no one knows about him. How, in the Earth, would no one in WILLE know about an Eva pilot that, probably, could have spent some time with them between 2.0 and 3.0? My guess is that they never knew about Kaworu (so calling Mk. 06 autonomous isn't actually an error, but a misconception) or the Kaworu they knew has been killed inside of Mk. 06. Other thing that has been bugging me is that nor Unit01, nor Mk. 06 nor 'Kaworu 06' has been spotted as an Angel by NERV in 2.0, why? Because they already have been registred as allies in MAGI. Unit01 is clearly shown as some kind of Blood-Type Blue in 1.0, but she has never been spotted as an Angel, just like Kaworu. He has only been spotted as an angel once inside Unit13, and as the Thirteenth Angel, so from this, we can guess that once changing from the First to the Thirteenth Angel, he has also changed from the personification of Unit01 to Unit13, and that's MAYBE why Shinji cannot synch with Unit01 anymore, she has lost her 'personification'.

WILLE probably know about Kaworu, they have DSS Chokers, and Kaworu specifically states that they were made for him. Also him turning into the 13th Angel is an anomaly that wasn't supposed to happens, but did thanks to Gendo's machinations(it's not explained exactly how does it works). Also, it's not even clear if WILLE even knows that EVA-13 is dual-piloted until the DSS Choker detects a pattern blue from it's wearer, which can't be Shinji since he's not an Angel, but obviously piloting EVA-13 since he's talking to Asuka during the fight.

Also, an Evangelion has a pattern orange, not blue. Kaworu wasn't detected as a pattern blue when he appeared because he can hide his powers(he did it for various days in NGE)

Now, I don't see what you mean with these "personalities" imbued inside the Evas, do you mean a soul? It's hardly possible, since at the moment he awoke he was in the fifth coffin, and EVA-05 was already deployed and guarding the 3rd Angel by that time, which makes six Evangelions created : from 00 to 05.

[Reichu]

Also, an Evangelion has a pattern orange, not blue.

http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/13942/

As for the FoIs, I admit there isn't any clue yet of why they are at EVA-01's image. One theory was that in Rebuild, like in NGE, EVA-01 was made from Lilith and/or Rei possessed Lilith's soul, and since she was inside EVA-01, the FoIs took the image of the body where the "Mother Soul" resides, EVA-01, instead of Reis, like Lilith's body and her transition guides did in EoE(that would also explain why the decapitated head of Lilith in Q also morphed into Rei's head)

I'm not sure how Lilith's soul being in Eva-01 explains why Lilith's head is Rei-shaped...

Also, the reason why Lilith took on Rei's shape in EoE is because Lilith's ego now associated itself with Rei's shape. Trying to apply this principle onto anything in NME is just headache-inducing.

[Rei IV]

If you want some more in-depth discussion regarding the Impact mechanics, I suggest you go to this thread here. There is some interesting theories from Reichu and others (myself included), even though it's coming out our asses.



In regards to Lilith, well, here's my pet theory from the Rei in 3.0 and Beyond thread.

[ElMariachi]

http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/13942/

Well, I stand corrected then.

I'm not sure how Lilith's soul being in Eva-01 explains why Lilith's head is Rei-shaped...

Also, the reason why Lilith took on Rei's shape in EoE is because Lilith's ego now associated itself with Rei's shape. Trying to apply this principle onto anything in NME is just headache-inducing.

That was mostly fanwankery from my part, but the core of it was that if Rei has Lilith's soul and EVA-01 is make of Lilith's flesh like it was in NGE, then Lilith's main body(the one crucified) has a sort of "link" with her soul via the other half of her body forming Unit 01 and at the time of 2.0 containing her soul.

Which, when she awoke and wrecked havok in the HQ, made her take Rei's shape, the same way Lilith took on Rei's shape in EoE because Lilith's ego associated itself with Rei's shape, except that this time it was a "wireless" link via EVA-01.
There must be a reason why Lilith's head morphed into Rei's.

Now why the FoIs are in EVA-01's image instead of Rei's, I honestly don't know, maybe that was to make the scene of their reveal more impacting than if Tokyo-3 was littered by hundreds of giant headless female statues, or because Anno wanted to throw us a well hidden hint about Rei's origin or EVA-01's particularity, or who knows...

[wiser3754]

I don't understand why the 12th angel imitates Lilith's new face when looking at the Mark.09, which brings me to topic I don't think has been commented on, was the 12th Angel conveying a message to the audience when taking different forms?

It's starts off like to snakes or serpent like entities (who has a familiar texture to the distorted shoulder pylons on the city FOI) merging then into a large sphere (imitation of the moon or EARTH!) to protect EVA-13, then to Rei's or Lilith's face (did the Angel give Lilith that face?) then to a foetus (symbol of new life growing, like the FOI?) and then down to a Angel core (replicating the fruit of life, to which an ADAM consumes?)

Those forms the Angel takes couldn't be just a show of it's power or function, what's the meaning behind this?

[ElMariachi]

^
Actually that's one of the biggest hints that Rei could have Lilith's soul like in NGE : if the theory above that Rei have Lilith's soul and that EVA-01 is made from Lilith's flesh, and that it's the reason why Lilith's face took Rei's image during Third Impact(due to a "wireless link" between Lilith and Rei thanks to EVA-01) is true, then when the 12th Angel absorbed the LCL made from Lilith when she exploded, it mutated into another lifeform, briefly taking Lilith's new image(Rei) in the process before being "reborn" as a core that EVA-13 could absorb to awake and start Fourth Impact.

[yogurtforthesoul]

I have no real concrete ideas at the moment about what happened. like many of you I want some more information before I make my final leap to a conclusion (I REALLY hope 4.0/4.44 can help us out here, mostly by giving us WILLE's side of the story).

From what I saw in 3.0, I must conclude that it was indeed a very quick (and as so many have complained about--the 14 year gap and the lack of information to help us out--plus the fact that ALL the characters on the "WILLE" side of things were in fact side characters...which hurt Asuka so much, when I expected to see so much interaction with her... which basically means that if they decide to do ANY romantic side to this story they are left with almost no possibilities unless they do one hell of a job in 4.0 on Shinji's & Asuka's relationship, which is what we had in the old series; unless they truly want to play the ridiculous: "incestuous clone" idea, especially now that Shinji knows about it) rehash of Neon Evangelion from were 2.0 leaves off and ends at End Of Evangelion (this time though we have Rei, Asuka, & Shinji walking in the red desert towards an uncertain future).

I wonder if we really have gotten this far already in the series, therefore providing us with a movie, 4.0, that will in fact be completely new and ultimately not based on old show material (only lore and myth). This could be a big reason why there IS hope for Shinji in this next movie, because the ultimate let down and depression we receive in End Of Evangelion has already come and passed.

So, onto 3rd impact. To me, I am utterly confused as to why everyone is giving Shinji the stink-eye over this matter. I have so many reasons for this that it isn't worth naming them all. I'm more than sure humanity would find their "pariah" to hang from the rafters for 3rd impact occurring. Hell, for all we know they may have used Shinji to some extent as an excuse to make sure that all of NERV's staff weren't shot on site, when I assume at some point the JSDF came in-in force, taking down headquarters.

The real cause for the FULL impact is even more troubling. It is obvious at the end of 2.0 that the 3rd impact WAS stopped. Most likely before most of the city was even fully destroyed above (though the central part of Tokyo 3 was obviously gutted). All Shinji did, never knowing of course that he did ANY of this, was open the doors of Guf and awaken Unit 01 (of course this is ALL assumption, as it is just as likely that YUI granted Shinji's wish to save Rei and awoken herself, leaving Shinji mostly out of this equation once he returns to Unit 01 with Rei). Rei more than likely cannot be pulled out of Unit 01 in 3.0 due to the fact that Yui is the core and Rei is essentially the same person--so in some terms they may have merged OR Rei may have became part of the control system.

We also find out that Shinji's sync ratio is at 0. But, what we don't know are these things: we know later on he uses a EVA with Kaworu just fine (though we don't know if this is part of Kaworu's abilities as an angel, the first); it could also be that they lied to him, as they literally don't want him to even believe that he is capable of using an EVA; but, I really think that he just couldn't sync with Unit 01 (and I'd have to see if it's possible to check to see indeed if it showed on-screen that this is what they used as a baseline) because the last thing he told Rei is that he didn't want to pilot an EVA...if she is now part of the control system of Unit 01, I imagine he can use Unit 01 just fine but first he must demand Rei to allow him to do so (or she must sense it in him). The Unit also activated to save Asuka, again pointing out that Shinji being at 0 is somehow...flawed (he was in an "awakened" machine, for all we know they don't have the ability to "measure" results of a pilot that has been through that...for example what if his scores were actually 1000% or worse, infinity...).

I think third impact may have gone a bit like this (with some minor changes here and there, especially when it comes to the spears). We are assuming, for now, that there are two spears. One that Kaworu brought from the moon (his spear), and Lilith's spear (which was in her in central dogma). Kaworu's was used to stop third impact--it worked. Now, we know that there were other EVAs, we also know that Shinji's friend died...and if anything like the series it was also in an EVA. I think he may have been the pilot of EVA 06 when it got taken by the then "assimilated" Lilith. But, the angel was in Mark 06...

Also BOTH spears were in central dogma--more than likely because they faced an opponent akin to what was in the series: one that stayed in orbit and required them to pull the spear from Lilith. At some point another angel came and did make it to central dogma, Mark 06 tried to stop it or did...we don't know; we just know it had been assimilated (more than likely by the angel; and since Lilith decided to punish Shinji's "sin" by turning souls into "Unit 01" a new species that looked alike (I assume the size variance was due to whether somebody was fat, tall, adult, teenager, or a child...etc...). So when they yanked the spears out, the angel took Lilith's "powers" of old (I assume, which means humans no matter what HAVE to use Unit 01 at this point to "recreate" the first sin, preferably while destroying the remnants of Adam on the Moon...making a future SEELE issue impossible), possibly. It also then took on the form of three things I think: it first transferred to the Mark 06, the "new species" of Lilith; then it took on the form of man, the old form of Lilith; then it re-created itself into what IT thought was the "perfect being": the red core sphere. But it was ultimately killed by the first angel, but in doing so it caused the first to possibly "evolve" and "awaken" into the 13th and "unknown" angel.

I think this is why Kaworu had such a bad feeling before this all began and once he saw the spears it fully confirmed that Lilith had truly screwed him over along with "The King of The Lilin" (Shinji's dad). I think the spears changed to the same shape as they are more than likely meant for Unit 01 to use them in the future, as it is Shinji (with the control system of Unit 01) deciding the fate of mankind and how things will change; this is why the spears are the same because both spears are no longer meant for two separate souls. One can now accomplish this. I imagine that the little thing Gendo has, "the key", will allow him to do what I said before: annihilate Adam's offspring from Earth. but, ultimately this may mean, again, like EoE, that everyone must trust Shinji to do the right thing when he again opens the door of Guf; but, this time Lilith will be gone, no longer to create a "sin" and Adam will be "controlled" by Gendo... Meaning that this time around in creation's history mankind will be the true God of himself; no longer beholden to some ancient and incredibly powerful alien technology...

I'm guessing that they had to pull the spear out of Shinji to deal with the 12th angel, because not only did they have to spear Lilith, but once the stupid angel "awoke" they more than likely needed a second spear. That is when Shinji or maybe I should say Unit 01 finished what it started and passed through the doors of Guf (probably before Lilith was out, hence why she created Shinji's "sin"). Again, none of this is or ever was Shinji's fault. Even Misato wanted Shinji to do it, so if he could EVEN hear them...he heard nothing of support (and by the time they were warning anyone about third impact he was already in the "quantum state" or past the critical thresh-hold, rescuing Rei). No one ever told Shinji ANY of these risks, that him delving into the critical area would create that mishap. he didn't know he had another person on board. He most certainly didn't know that there was an ancient alien mechanism in central dogma that was referred to as "Lilith" that would turn things into EVAs--a herald of her new "offspring"; the new creatures that attack Misato's crew and humanity in general all the time (and of course we have no idea how any of this worked).

Blaming third impact on Shinji is perhaps on of the most ridiculous things in the world. Not only did they stop it, but they CHOSE to pull the thing out of Shinji without any plan to stop what they had to know was coming. Those that were in charge created the crapfeast we see in 3.0, Misato, SEELE, Gendo, and others. Shinji was merely an errand boy, one that finally decided to use the power in his hands to do the right thing--and everyone hates him for it. That is why I see 3.0 as being the true replacement for EoE, and 4.0 will be a "breath of fresh air" for the series. Perhaps finally giving us, and as it says...Shinji...some hope.

I would also note that I think the containers on the moon did in fact contain other clones of Kaworu. Rei is very much used to control the EVAs, so in turn I wonder if they use a "dummy system" or control system based on Kaworu and HE is in fact ALL of the angels...? Any ideas on that? Though there are other options, though I have no doubt that all of the angels are or have been sent by SEELE.

It seems highly likely to me that this is in fact true, given that he IS Adam, the angel responsible for ANGELS that took from the tree of life, unlike the kindred that use the tree of knowledge that Liltith provided. A process a "planet seeding" that, at least in old Evangelion mythology an ancient alien civilization created all the angels along with their "moons" which contained the seeds of life or souls. Adam and Lilith screwed (she had been damaged I believe; then crashing into Earth only made her situation worse) up upon arriving at Earth (as it is supposed to be one or the other, never both; whoever gets to Earth first is the one that uses the planet; the other leaves or self-destructs...BUT, in this even t, Lilith arrived at Earth when Adam was already here, but she was unable to do anything about her circumstances as she was damaged; her "self-destruct mechanism" or fail-safe was HER spear, created for HER and it only works on her; all of this failed and it eventually resulted in the "original sin": the creation of mankind). The short of it is that Adam interacted with Lilith and Adam shut himself down, but he already had his copies on the planet, which allowed Lilith's to take over the copies or souls on Earth: THUS the trees of both life AND knowledge, merged (since the first angels looked like Kaworu, Lilith merely added knowledge to the mix... man then became, technically, the final angel of them all).

--A small explanation for those wondering about the origins; though you can find better versions of what I said with much more information that what I wrote above if you wish to know about it--it may have slightly changed for rebuild (for one fact the amount of spears "in play" are different; so they have rethought some of this, if not ALL of it...there may no longer be an "alien civilization" with advanced "terraforming" and colony ships called the: black and white moons; though it could be mostly the same, they just changed what exactly happened to Adam and Lilith once they arrived at Earth). Sorry for the length; but, I doubt anyone reading these topics and messages is too concerned over length (if you are a TL;DR person, I hate to say it, but I think you may be in the wrong place...especially the wrong thread).

--Feel free to add on or change things to make my ideas more complete or accurate if you like them.

[ElMariachi]

^
Wow, you seems to mix up a lot of things here, it's hard to follow your point, but answering what I understood :

- Lilith don't plotted anything in 3.0, by the time of the movie she's dead, what you see in her Chamber is exactly what Kaworu described : her corpse, only maintaining its image and shape thanks to the two spears. Whatever happened that changed the Cassius spear into a Longinus was Gendo's (and Fuyutsuki) doing alone. He freaked out because he noticed that on of the spears hey needed for their plan mysteriously transformed into another type, completely ruining their plan.

- we're not sure from what the Failures of Infinity are made of, it's possible that they were created from people's souls harvested, or maybe they are just soulless "minions" created by Lilith to defend herself. I highly doubt that Lilith created them as a "punishment' for Shinji, as I don't see Lilith(if there's still a consciousness inside it) giving a rat-ass about the acts of one of her Lilins, besides what would be the point for Lilith to do that?
As for why the FoIs are made at EVA-01, it's still a mystery. One theory is that EVA-01's Near Third Impact so close to Lilith altered her somehow and made her create copies of Unit 01. Another is that, like in NGE, EVA-01 is made directly from Lilith's flesh(instead of being a clone of ADAM) and that Rei II carries the soul of Lilith, and that when Rei II ended inside EVA-01, since it's made from Lilith's flesh, it remotely affected Lilith's main body which took Rei's image since her soul now identified itself as Rei Ayanami. It's the same process than Lilith taking Rei's image after she's reunited with it in EoE, except that this time it's "wireless".

- the "new creatures that attack Misato's crew and humanity in general all the time" are the Evangelions Mark.04 "Nemesis Series", automated Evangelion-attack drones created and controlled by SEELE and neo-NERV and which apparently serves as the bulk of their military force.

- about Shinji's 0.000% synch ratio, he test was made with EVA-01 only :
[wkimg]File:Eva3-33 C0278D zero.jpg[/wkimg]
Look at the "Object : EVA-01" label just under the big 0.0000%
WILLE never doubted that he could still pilot an Eva, that's why they told him to absolutely not pilot one when he decided to escape with Mark.09, and that would use a DSS Choker useless if he indeed lost the ability to pilot, it's his ability to awake an Eva he pilots that WILLE fears.
He probably managed to awake EVA-01 to save Asuka because he was still absorbed in it back then, therefor was a "part" of it, but now that he regained a physical form, that union with EVA-01 was severed, hence the null synch ratio.

- to get back on topic, on the events after 2.0, from what we saw during the post-credit scene in 2.0 and in 3.0, it's clear that something else happened sometime after Shinji's N3I, and that whatever turned the Hakone region into a red desert(and maybe the rest of the world with it) happened at that moment, not when Shinji awoke EVA-01.
WILLE obviously blames Shinji for something, but until we get their side of the story, we can't say what for sure, maybe the damages he inflicted to the Geofront helped the 12th Angel to reach Lilith and starts Third Impact, so it's indirectly his fault, maybe they don't know that Shinji could see what was happening outside and think that he deliberately wanted to destroy the world just to save Rei, the fact he's the son of Gendo Ikari who indeed wants to destroy the world to get reunited with his loved one, probably didn't helped his case.
Or maybe it's a combination of the above theories.

Finally, we don't know if EVA-01 was awakened again when the spear of Cassius was removed to be used on the 12th Angel(if it wasn't removed before without incidents), in fact it's probable that it didn't made EVA-01 awake again, since then how would had NERV stopped it without a spear? Unit 1 wasn't impaled by a spear while in the tesseract.

[yogurtforthesoul]

Well, for one thing Shinji never did finish his true "ascension" through the Doors Of Guf. So even though they pulled the spear out, at some point (I'm guessing they had the tesseract basically ready and then did a seamless transition...putting Unit 01 in the tesseract and then taking back the spear).

From 2.0 you can at the very least see 3 spears in the 2nd impact (with four angels of light; which I would assume, due to time spans involved that they each represent Shinji, Rei, Asuka, and most likely Kaworu...though it could be four-eyes if they are only counting humans in this scenario, not just important characters). I take back my original idea about the spears (and Unit 01, IF there are only three spears). If there are only three spears then I imagine that Rei, Asuka, and Shinji will use them in 4.0 to do something neat. But, that is assuming we find the third spear...but, SEELE will more than likely hand that item off it is around. It might be on the moon with Adam still, but I'm assuming that Kaworu used that one already.

It may be that the spears represent gender in some fashion or even souls; so in these scenarios it would work out like this... If it is gender based, I would assume that it would be a setup that includes the three main characters: Rei, Shinji, and Asuka. But if it soul based (which seems to follow the logic Kaworu used in 3.0) then it may indeed be ALL Unit 01 that does everything since you have Rei, Yui (essentially, if not, the same soul) and then Shinji, the final soul. We will see how they play it--if they even do anything akin to what we see in 3.0 and also EoE.

Thanks for that screenshot and you are right...now that I think on it, it IS clear that WILLE is quite aware to some degree that Shinji can still use EVAs (though the result for EVA 01 may certainly be 0%, if as I said Rei is doing what I said--forcing Shinji to be out of sync with Unit 01. If that is true perhaps he could still use the EVA subconsciously (to help Asuka in 3.0) before they removed him from the cockpit. At that moment he was "out of sync" with Rei and Unit 01. I have no doubt that he'll use it though, that is basically a given.

Anyway, as you said we are missing the other side of the story... Does Asuka even know about the dummy system and Shinji being forced to almost kill someone he cared about? I hope we get some very good explanations as to why Shinji became a pariah; his actions in 3.0 were FAR worse than those in 2.0 in my opinion by far. In that moment he disregarded the ONLY person that trusted and decided to befriend him and then he, again, seemed to act completely befuddled when everything went insane...even though Kaworu already showed him a red desert with a mouth that had teeth, lots of EVA copies, The Moon and it's new atmosphere (not to mention that it was far closer, spinning far faster, and had a nice bloody pattern across it).

I don't find Shinji to culpable for the events in 2.0 (again, unless WILLE tells us something gigantic in 4.0...but, I doubt it; I'm guessing that they'll actually learn that they were in fact wrong--especially if they have a "mind-reading" moment were all souls meet & mingle like in EoE, allowing Shinji to share his story)... But, I will agree that he was at fault--to some degree--for the death of Kaworu in 3.0 and the craziness in 3.0... Of course, Gendo wouldn't leave things to chance, I'm sure the "dummy system" worked just fine in that machine (which was probably what locked Kaworu out of the control system).

[wiser3754]

Has it ever bothered anyone that in the Deep Sync test they use "TEST SUBJECT - BM03" as opposed to "TEST SUBJECT - Ikari, Shinji". If they fed that information through to EVA-01, I'm sure the two occupants residing in it would think, "Who the hell is this?" and promptly reject the test subject.

One other thing that has been bothering me, Aoba's footage of N3I , or more to the point, the timer. It runs for 32.+ seconds which evidently is the same amount of time between when you first see the Radiant Giant and 2.0's end (I just checked). You know what happens later, has anyone else spotted this?

[ElMariachi]

From 2.0 you can at the very least see 3 spears in the 2nd impact (with four angels of light; which I would assume, due to time spans involved that they each represent Shinji, Rei, Asuka, and most likely Kaworu...though it could be four-eyes if they are only counting humans in this scenario, not just important characters). I take back my original idea about the spears (and Unit 01, IF there are only three spears). If there are only three spears then I imagine that Rei, Asuka, and Shinji will use them in 4.0 to do something neat. But, that is assuming we find the third spear...but, SEELE will more than likely hand that item off it is around. It might be on the moon with Adam still, but I'm assuming that Kaworu used that one already.

We see four spears during Second Impact(for the four ADAMs) :

SPOILER: Show

[wkimg]Eva2-22 C0402B comp.jpg[/wkimg]

The one on the foreground as a "screwed" handle, implying that it's a Longinus, while the one at the bottom has a smooth handle, meaning that it's the Cassius, it also means that there's only one Cassius for three Longinus.
Also tying the spears and the ADAMs to the Eva pilots looks like an huge leap to me, nothing tell us than Shinji, Asuka, Mari or Rei Q have Seeds of Life's souls, it's only confirmed for Kaworu and a possibility for Rei II

Anyway, as you said we are missing the other side of the story... Does Asuka even know about the dummy system and Shinji being forced to almost kill someone he cared about? I hope we get some very good explanations as to why Shinji became a pariah; his actions in 3.0 were FAR worse than those in 2.0 in my opinion by far. In that moment he disregarded the ONLY person that trusted and decided to befriend him and then he, again, seemed to act completely befuddled when everything went insane...even though Kaworu already showed him a red desert with a mouth that had teeth, lots of EVA copies, The Moon and it's new atmosphere (not to mention that it was far closer, spinning far faster, and had a nice bloody pattern across it).

I don't see any reason why Misato would had hidden the details of the Bardiel incident to Asuka, except being an huge dick, Asuka told to Shinji that how she got her eyepatch was none of his business probably because she don't like to talk about these events, and that's understandable.

Also, I concur that from what we know, the accusations on Shinji for Third Impact don't hold, unless WILLE gives more information in FINAL. And it's also right that what happened in 3.0 was indeed his fault for not listening to anyone about the spears(I don't hold escaping the Wunder against him because everything was pointing that Misato has lost her mind and NERV are still the good guys) : sure it's implied that Gendo manipulated the events from the shadows to make him seek the truth and lose his mind(Toji's shirt, Fuyutsuki's infodump), which would make him in the worst mental state when faced with the revelation that the spears are the wrong ones and maximize the chances that he chose irrationally and go for the spears no matter what, but that's attenuating circumstances, Shinji did had full control over EVA-13, and let his emotions get the better of him and discard everyone else's warning and pleas, leading to him playing right into Gendo's hands.
And Kaworu paid the price of it with his life, something that Shinji will have to live with for the rest of his life.

Has it ever bothered anyone that in the Deep Sync test they use "TEST SUBJECT - BM03" as opposed to "TEST SUBJECT - Ikari, Shinji". If they fed that information through to EVA-01, I'm sure the two occupants residing in it would think, "Who the hell is this?" and promptly reject the test subject.

It's just the image display in Ritsuko's computer, EVA-01 itself only received the neural data of Shinji(or whatever the hell they use to calculate a synch-rate), I don't think Yui or Rei II gives a rat-ass of if the wave pattern is labeled "Shinji Ikari", "BM-03" or "Mahatma Gandhi"

---

One other thing that has been bothering me, Aoba's footage of N3I , or more to the point, the timer. It runs for 32.+ seconds which evidently is the same amount of time between when you first see the Radiant Giant and 2.0's end (I just checked). You know what happens later, has anyone else spotted this?

Good catch, I don't think anyone noticed that! So that mean that the video is supposed to end just before Mark.06 impales Unit 01. So, does that also means that Misato intended to hide to Shinji about Kaworu stopping N3I? Could also be that it just wasn't important for the moment and that she would come back to that later had Mark.09 not attacked though.

[yogurtforthesoul]

Sorry about the number of spears, for some reason I could have sworn I only saw three. That basically nullifies the importance they may play... As I think the only spears that really matter are in fact at least one of the Longinus spears and of course Cassius. I imagine the other two will be used to deal with our previous and now semi-dealt with 13th angel or Kaworu and anything SEELE has left to throw at them in 4.0 (as I imagine that SEELE may removesthe other two Longinus spears from Kaworu to use on Unit 01 in the final act, I'd imagine...they may also have "fake spears" or other spears of Longinus I'd imagine like we see in EoE; though it could easily turn out that WILLE tries to stop Unit 01 too if they didn't initialize it themselves as a "last resort").

I also find it interesting with the footage we see for N3I. I didn't think it had been doctored on purpose, but now that I'm bringing up my next point (after this) I'm starting to see the main "adult" characters acting a bit more shady. Again, I'd also like to know how Misato ended up being allowed to work with WILLE and why they even trust any of the former NERV staff. As I would assume things went down sort of like what happened in EoE--with less massacre and more arrests...

If Misato is withholding information from Shinji, about N3I I'd assume she is doing it to try and make sure that his guilt over the event makes him steer clear of being in an EVA, ever. She, along with many others (for all we know the little "show" of non-compassion and pure hatred for Shinji may have in fact been semi-cooked up to make Shinji REALLY think he had done something wrong; but, from everything we know, especially with what Kaworu told Shinji, it seems that the "Lilin's" hatred is very real) may think that Gendo is using Shinji as a "catalyst" with Unit 01 to create his own ends (especially if they know about Yui; I'd assume that the good ol' doctor does know). This leads to my last point.

Shinji definitely needs to be bitch slapped for the events of 3.0... He was an idiot, though I must argue that it would be hard for anyone to think straight under the conditions that everyone put Shinji in... We, the audience, know this best; we saw the entire movie basically through Shinji's eyes and were left with the expression of: "WTF"? He did however get rid of SEELE's "pawn"...and I hate to call Kaworu this, but he was indeed SEELE's pawn, as Rei is almost always Gendo's pawn...

So, during N3I, when Unit 01 begins to become a radiant giant (just as Shinji tells Rei that he will save her no matter what and he begins his descent into the core of the angel) I have some questions left over Shinji's culpability in N3I at all. We know that Gendo is readily heard before hand talking about "hastening the awakening of Unit 01" after he stops talking with SEELE and realizes they are taking steps to finalize their own agenda.

When Unit 01 starts to become a radiant giant there is a very quick shot of the restriction devices and supports giving out around Unit 01's core (where Yui technically now resides). At first I thought this was merely just a scene showing Unit 01 becoming a radiant giant and recreating 2nd impact--the forces involved are literally ripping off the constrictions that hold Unit 01 together. But these same things may also KEEP Unit 01 FROM awakening, or being able too, IF they function properly. Specifically if Shinji goes into the "critical zone"--as he does--the unit should be able to handle it under normal conditions (of course many things were abnormal at this point--for one thing Unit 01 was again seen moving as though it had "limitless" power in it; as though it had an "S2" engine...or whatever it is called in Rebuild; these are the same devices that supposedly caused the destruction at the EVA base over seas, and what prompted the U.S. to force Japan to take Unit 03). It occurs to me that Gendo may have done far more (and I'm in fact more than sure he DID do more than talk--he NEVER leaves things to "chance", at least not exactly) talk about "hastening" Unit 01's awakening. What if he weakened or destroyed vital areas that allowed Unit 01 to "contain" itself and not awaken when Shinji (and Unit 01 to some degree) was in a very dangerous situation, like the critical zone--as I said you can clearly see in a very good shot...specific shot possibly...that the chest-plate that armored the core of Unit 01 fully broke apart.

The other question that should be answered is why can Unit 01 still function without power? Does it have a "S2" engine already or is it merely (and I think this is the real reason, otherwise I think SEELE would have destroyed Unit 01 or taken it away a long time ago) because Yui is inside the core of Unit 01; essentially a soul acts exactly like a "S2" engine would.

I'm wondering if this is what we will learn of in 4.0 and so will the members of WILLE (it may even be true that Misato and possibly Katsuragi already DO know about this, hence...beyond being emotionally attached to Shinji...why Misato couldn't pull the trigger on the detonator when Rei took him--and if they deemed it necessary they may have told others, like Asuka and Mari) that Gendo truly caused N3I and that Shinji had nothing to do with it (other then getting in the cockpit, but Gendo more than likely knew that 01 was going to awaken as soon as it's battery life hit 0:00). It could also be that either Yui is "always" able to reactivate Unit 01 if in dire need (or even radically alter it) and if she fears for her child's safety OR Gendo may also need to input some kind of "release" code, allowing Yui to have full control over Unit 01 once it's battery life (basically everything Shinji could do) is terminated. Basically this would account for the first event--which Gendo may have allowed Yui to "partially" use Unit 01 to her liking, and then 3rd impact, when she "awoke" and granted the wish of her child. But, we know obviously that Yui can do things without these type of "instructions" or "code/hardware changes" as she absolutely refused to allow them to use the dummy system after Gendo nearly forced HER and indirectly Shinji to almost kill Asuka (and Gendo couldn't begin to figure out why she was "unhappy" with him and disallowed the dummy system from being used...what an idiot, he definitely deserves the karma crap-pie that is due for him, something we will hopefully get in 4.0--unless like in EoE, Gendo actually has some remnant of a soul left and DOES care for his son and wife...not just his needs and desires...and actually has a final plan that reaches beyond restoring his wife--who HAS actually been with him this entire time in Unit 01...but Gendo is blind to this fact, but also aims to reclaim humanity, Earth, and mankind as well)...

The continuation of N3I, I think, can be partially blamed on almost everyone. But, Shinji, exclusively, has Kaworu's blood on his hands.
------
BTW-

For an alternate idea of what happened at N3I, and when Shinji was impaled by Unit 06 and Kaworu. The timeline doesn't exactly match-up for this (and I haven't thought out the side impacts that would not let this occur) and to be honest I would hate to think that Kaworu IS in fact this much of a liar (and very much a complete pawn of SEELE's and may in fact WANT mankind to "change" or perish to some degree). What if SEELE had in fact completed another EVA by the time we see Kaworu impale Shinji at N3I (and they sent it somewhere, nearby, for Kaworu to use--close to NERV headquarters). What if Kaworu started third impact again once he had Unit 01 in a location he could deal with, had Unit 06 in it's position to make a run on Lilith and her spear--from a SEELE directive (possibly autonomous or using his "angel powers" to control it from the outside--much like he did in Neon Evangelion). If Kaworu set things up correctly (and worse, if there are actually clones of Kaworu--the clone--SEELE's version of "Rei", or Yui--would do the "dirty work", like controlling angels or just exposing and attacking Lilith, restarting N3I at as SEELE wanted it...if he was in charge of the angel--was the angel--that came to Lilith's doorstep like in Neon Evangelion and then again either a clone or the real Kaworu came to NERV to act as the SEELE's envoy and became Shinji's friend--he also mentioned that Shinji would "see him again"; was that a metaphorical/metaphysical comment, as it seemed to be or did Kaworu truly mean that Shinji indeed would soon see him again as another clone of him existed; these clones may have been controlling the angels directly or have been installed in the core, but that seems semi-unlikely as Rei was "alone" in 2.0 when she was in the angel's core...from what we know) it may have looked to everyone at NERV and especially to all from the "outside" world that Unit 01 or Shinji directly caused third impact... It may also be that Unit 06 was the main cause at first, possibly the angel that got into central dogma (explaining why NERV didn't vaporize itself), but once it was assimilated or someone got into Unit 06 and override the autonomous control of Unit 06 stopped the continuation of N3I, but at the cost of the pilot's life (and i think we can guess who that was, if it was true).

The question is what happened when they removed the spear from Unit 01 in the time-skip AND who did it (who put him in the tesseract, who built it and for what purpose originally, who put him in orbit, etc...)? If the 3rd impact DIDN'T resume due to the spear being removed from Unit 01 (and I actually find it hard to believe that it happened this way, because if it did shouldn't we still have a spear in Unit 01, to stop it yet again and to keep N3I from again resuming), then why does everyone believe Shinji is the main culprit for N3I and the BULK of its horrific effects caused by Unit 01's awakening? Yet from what we saw in 2.0, he hardly did anything other than open the doors of Guf for a minute and cause some decent damage right around Tokyo 3--unless as stated it resumed once the spear was removed. But 3rd impact was NEVER completed, it was stopped (three times, as far as we know for now) again and we know that an angel even got to Lilith.

If you ask me, THAT is what really did it; unless we find out that there was some kind of "body-jumping" angel that hijacked Unit 01 while Shinji was out cold with Rei and HE was "the angel" that descended on Lilith (which would directly explain why we have copies of Unit 01, created in mass by Lilith as her "new species" and also to mark Shinji's "sin"; right now Shinji's "sin" seems almost indirect in nature...almost as though Lilith hates anyone that dares to tread on grounds that would open the Doors Of Guf and punishes Earth in response; but, as I said, whatever removed the spear from Lilith TRULY caused Earth to descend into the madness we got in 3.0--or possibly the angel that got to her if it assimilated her even before the spear was "yanked out"). Again, if Unit 01 did this, it would be impossible for NERV to self-destruct; then the angel could leave him for Lilith (and once it did then it would "transcend and awaken" and cause 3rd impact to resume, with Lilith passing a final judgement before she died, killing Lilith afterwards)?

That is the majority of my "other idea" or "evil Kaworu" theory, but I doubt it works out or that it's true (especially since I think they are going for a different approach in Rebuild and this idea would be too close to EoE and Neon Evangelion's conclusion and it's explanations)--due to the timeline and too many problems with what others said and facts about N3I, it's events, and after effects... But, I STILL have a lot of questions to have answered, many of them ask things that directly involve N3I and what caused it and why it was caused.

We don't yet know fully what the tesseract specifically does/did in this version... BUT that again leaves more questions, because WILLE had to remove Unit 01 from it to use it and there was no spear visible either (in fact it looked like Unit 01 had been repaired to some degree; but, I'll admit that Unit 01's "pseudo-form" may have repaired it or even made it look that way--by replacing missing parts much like it replaced it's left arm in 2.0). So what in fact DID cause third impact to resume, what stopped it, who stopped it, how many times did it "resume again"...was it more than just once, how much time went by before anyone got to (besides Unit 06 and Kaworu or SEELE) Unit 01, when was the spear removed from Unit 01 and why did they do it...what happened when they did it (as Cassius was the spear in Unit 01, so does this mean that Kaworu was anywhere near the events that transpired with the angel and Lilith and since he heard that two spears had been used he assumed, naturally, that the spears at the bottom of central dogma were in fact the original Longinus and the Cassius used on Unit 01; the truth is that Gendo removed Cassius from Unit 01 and hid it away somewhere...more than likely he, Rei, and Kozo know where it now resides), was anyone ever in Unit 06--was it partially autonomous for awhile, we assume the 12th angel--the "final angel"--got to Lilith...but what all transpired and what was the angel like, when did the SSDF (or JSDF and possibly the U.N.) decide to intervene and take NERV, does Kaworu agree with SEELE or have any idea of their plans, who made the tesseract and when, who put Shinji in orbit and why (why there--I'm assuming it was because SEELE didn't want ANYONE to be able to use what was there, "the power to kill God"...), and so many more...???

I hope we get a fairly good idea of just what happened in 4.0, because right now...like Shinji...us as an audience have almost no idea as to what is going on all thanks to that acid hit induced by the time jump.

[ElMariachi]

First, SEELE were destroyed by Gendo in 3.0, so they won't do anything anymore. There's only neo-NERV in the bad guys side left, and Gendo now possesses all the resources SEELE could still had left.
I really like the idea of Gendo using the spears to shoot EVA-01 and bring down the Wunder!

The NERV staff was allowed to work with WILLE because they didn't had any idea of what Gendo, Fuyutsuki and SEELE were up to, they were here only to protect the world. Also, the NERV staff are the most knowledgeable and experienced personnel about everything related to the Angels and Evangelions, and since SEELE's main force is made of Eva/Angel drones...
It's also possible that the NERV staff are simply the ones who founded that organization.

I don't know if Misato deliberately withheld the information about how N3I was stopped by Mark.06, it's possible that she let this part for later, but it's extremely unlikely that she didn't told him and make everyone put on an act of hating him just so he would never want to pilot an Eva ever again : first, that would be a stupidly and overly complicated plan when Shinji made it clear since the beginning that he hates piloting the Evas even if he's rather good at it, when it's far more simpler to explain to him that he has some weird powers that could make an Eva he pilots awakes and trigger an Impact and therefore he can't be allowed to pilot ever again(hell, he would gladly jump at the chance to finally get rid of this burden, even if he'll probably regret not being able to directly protect the people he cares for anymore). Second, that would be the biggest dick move ever pulled on Shinji by any character, even worse than Gendo's manipulation in 3.0!
Besides, the Wunder crew was shown to express resentment to him even when he wasn't looking, see Sakura muttering to herself that they will never take off the DSS Choker from him, or when she bailed her fist when Shinji asked to pilot EVA-01 to help Asuka(and Shinji was facing his back to her)
So it's clear that they genuinely resent him for "something", which is obviously tied to his awakening of EVA-01 14 years ago, but we don't have the exact details yet, FINALE will need to give us their side of the story.

While it's clear that Shinji screwed up hard in 3.0, I don't think that any more bitch-slapping will be necessary : Asuka already lectured him at the end of the movie, and the fact that Kaworu's blood is on his hands and that he knows it is probably a more than enough personal punishment for Shinji. Seeing his state of complete brokenness and self-loathing, any more reprimanding and punishment would be overkill, as well as completely useless since he's not even in touch with reality anymore.

As for the Eva armor, those are restrains and are meant to prevent NERV or the pilot to lose control of it, be it by berserking or anything else that could happen, such as awakening, except that the awakening is simply too powerful to be restrained. It's possible that Gendo made some modifications to the armor to make its pseudo-evolution easier, I could perfectly pictures the bastard doing that...

Also, Eva can move even without power(albeit during only very limited periods of time) because they are primarily living being, the power is for all the control system that let the pilot move the Eva around. EVA-01 didn't acquired n S2 organ(Fruit of Life) until it ate Zeruel(NGE) or absorbed it(Rebuild), which let it be piloted indefinitely and without the need of a power cable, like the MP-Evas in EoE or neo-NERV's Evas.

[yogurtforthesoul]

Well we saw that SEELE's souls were rendered obsolete (from what 3.0 seemed to show). But, what i meant is that SEELE may have something else still sitting in the background, ready to "start" once Unit 01 (as I assume SEELE assumes naturally that that Unit IS the "endgame", so it seems HIGHLY unlikely that they haven't planned at least one little event to overcome).

As you stated the other problem at hand is Gendo and what his motivations and ultimate plan truly is. But, I think Gendo is under the mistaken impression (as we see from the dummy system misfire) that Unit 01 is "his" to use only as he sees fit--it is his to use. SEELE also has this same ridiculous misinterpretation, that they also can use, take, change, or control Unit 01 whenever they really want.

But, I think both of those parties will get "lost in translation" when Yui truly enforces HER will and allows her son and more than likely this time around in 4.0 (rather than how EoE decided to handle everything, all through Rei with Yui never showing herself...which to me was a mistake) she will show herself to her son along with Rei... Rei may be the piece that causes SEELE's leftovers to fail in a final move, while I believe Gendo will fail because he has simply never understood his wife OR the fact that his wife NEVER died... Yui has been sitting right next to Gendo this entire time as Unit 01 and heard and saw EVERYTHING he did--including her clones and the complete use of her son as a "tool" by Gendo, which to me would be so irrevocably unredeemable that he is damned in her eyes...if she knows about it (and I truly believe she does). I'm sure she has quite a few unhappy thoughts with how Gendo has handled things and intends to handle things--destroying mankind just to reunite him and her when she more than likely wants him to screw off and be with Rei and Shinji ONLY (Rei being trapped in the core of that angel and the fact that Shinji saw her as a person--that Rei could easily be her daughter in another life--may have been the true key to allowing Yui to fully awaken and complete Shinji's wish)... I'm sure Yui and possibly Rei as well, both see this all as outright madness on Gendo's part and also SEELE--I'm sure WILLE is a somewhat welcomed environment, which means "Wunder" may get some energy and benefits that are abnormal if it truly makes Yui (and Rei) happy (especially if Shinji can be happy there; but the minute they start hating Shinji too much...well...they asked for it).

Anyway I'm pretty sure that Yui (and also Rei, if she is given "semi-omniscient" abilities within Unit 01 concerning Gendo) may go so far that she would kill him at this point...so we may see a scene semi-reminiscent of EoE with Unit 01 and Gendo... With Gendo suddenly realizing, OH, he's reunited with his wife! Everything he has ever wanted and deserves!

[ElMariachi]

^
Well, as for what will Yui and Rei II will do in FINALE, I guess we'll have to wait and see! ;)

[Lennik]

On the subject of Shinji needing to get bitchslapped, I would like to add that inflicting physical violence on a person who's already in the midst of extreme emotional trauma and suicidal depression, regardless of intent, is quite possibly one of the worst, most harmful things you could possibly do to them. In real life, you don't just get over your problems because someone tries to knock some sense into you. In fact, in real life, this would only make that person's emotional problems astronomically worse.

Shinji fucked up, but I think he's suffered enough for one day.

[ElMariachi]

^
I concur, Shinji already karma bitchslapped himself hard enough with Kaworu dying by his fault, he got a direct consequence of his recklessness slapped on his face, no need add anything.
And even the "physical punishment" part is taken care of by Asuka manhandling him, although I suspect it's more to make him snap out of his catatonia(remember that at first she only talked to him, she only resorted to manhandling when she came back, and if the "Petit Film" is to be believed, during their trip she only kicks him when he relapse into vegetable mode to make him start to walk again), the "worst" I could see is Misato or Sakura slapping him once because of their anger and frustration of him not listening to them, only to see how much he's broken and regrets what he did, making them interrupt the lecture they were gonna to give him.(again, in the "Petit Film" storyboards there seem to be a scene of someone gently taking Shinji's head in its hands, that could be from a scene in that vein, and seeing the height of the person it could be Misato)

[yogurtforthesoul]

I think you misunderstood what I meant by the little "bitch-slapping" metaphor. You TRULY thought I meant to physically bitch-slap Shinji--with a hand--into understanding... Or something akin to that--using violence--as you said, to make Shinji "see things clearly" and to "force him out of his funk"...

I have personally been in the place where Shinji is now at. I also know that what you said IS absolutely correct. BUT, at the same time it is VERY true no matter what your state is at the time that you MUST face reality--even if you must be "bitch-slapped" metaphorically into this understanding. I'm mostly referring to what Mari said to Shinji as she was force-ejecting him from Unit 13. I also think Shinji needs to have the idea that his actions have extremely negative OR positive REAL-WORLD effects from his decisions...something that Shinji has in fact kept himself VERY distanced from. I can only hope that the death--almost by his own hands--of Kaworu will ultimately teach him this.

Because after all, he will more than likely be the person that must save humanity from it's final grave in 4.0...I have no doubt. To do this he will need to understand the consequences of his actions far better than he ever has before. Second, he DOES need the support of those close to him--he WILL fail humanity if all they do is shove him into a gutter, shove him around, and call him the pariah of mankind's despair (even though I believe that is utterly false and is also the fault of those at WILLE to believe it; these are people that knew Shinji, so they should know that he wouldn't do that to them).

You didn't read everything I wrote, at least I don't think you did; as you didn't understand that the "bitch-slap" comment was NOT a literal one--I'm NOT a fan of corporeal punishment or "spanking your children" to force them to learn a lesson...all that really is, is control through fear. I also commented that Shinji had very much been put into a situation that if ANYONE were to be put into the same situation...I'm more than certain they would falter and fail.

Those around him, ALL, failed him. When he came back to them, he came back to an alien world...not HOME. He didn't do anything wrong, yet they strapped a bomb to his neck (yes, it was more than likely meant for Kaworu...but Katsuragi certainly would have pulled the trigger on Shinji, without a single tear, if she had that damned remote). They made him their pariah, because they couldn't solve anything--and to make it worse they NEEDED him and Unit 01 to even have a hope of continuing to survive. They lied to him, they didn't listen to him, and they left him alone...

So much so that Gendo easily came and scooped him up and away, to use, again, as a tool in his "plan".

BTW, did anyone notice that when Shinji was on Wunder that it was quite possible that the Rei he heard (seemingly almost telepathically, asking only this: "Where are you?") may have literally been Rei II and NOT Rei III in Unit 00 (outside the ship at that time). It was merely a cleverly timed (the timing of Rei III finding him made it seem like it never really happened and that my other idea below is more than likely what happened) plot element to lead us in another direction--but we had hope from the VERY start, Shinji did too, but it was so very easy to overlook that possibility... When Rei III scoops him up and speaks through the external voice box, she sounded COMPLETELY different, and we NEVER again heard Rei use that "telepathic" ability...and Shinji didn't ask about it--it could have easily been Rei III talking through the hull of Wunder... BUT, what if that wasn't true at all?

What if the voice Shinji heard WAS the Rei he saved; he DID have a reason to stay with them, but Misato and her allies scared Shinji off--this includes Asuka (Mari gets a special award for being the only "non-dick" this entire time).

In 4.0 I imagine Misato will have to help Shinji out, it may even be that he may need to be put in Unit 01 before he can truly recover from his loss of "soul" and his ability to want to live. But, as they said in the preview, Shinji's destination will give him hope. What if he arrives at the Wunder and DOES hear Rei again, but it isn't Rei III. Maybe the Quantum breakdown of his body while in the plug, with Rei, that entire time has linked them on another level? I'm fairly certain that that may be enough to help Shinji get out of this and he may even be able to talk his way, with Rei II's help, back into Unit 01--especially if they know that something big is coming and that they can stop it. In fact they are the only ones who can do it.

I feel for Shinji, I really do. But he MUST face reality...THAT is what must be "bitch-slapped" into him. They must make sure he understands how things WORK--the problem is that no one, ever, not in the past and certainly not in the present (not even the great Kaworu) explained ONE thing about what would happen if they do "x", then "y" happens; they always just "went with the flow", with no planning and explanations before-hand (in that context, Kaworu is also partially responsible for his own fate). From there, I hope, unlike EoE that Shinji (preferably with the help of those that once thought he was humanity's destroyer) can change things...because I would hate to see another horrible and unhappy ending, even IF it is done well...

[ElMariachi]

Read again what I said, I agree with you that Shinji doesn't need a physical punishment.(hell in his current state he wouldn't even register being hit!)

Also, he did faced reality and the consequences of his actions, seeing the lovecraftian Tokyo-3 landscape and Kaworu's head get splattered on the wall of his entry plug hammered very well to his face that his actions does have consequences. Shinji's problem isn't that he doesn't see that his actions have consequences, but rather that he doesn't the consequences outside of himself, due to his solitary childhood and abandonment issues.
That's why when he grabbed the spears, the only thing he could think of was "I've so far, did what I hate the most in the world for that hope, I can let it be for nothing, if I don't act now my chance at redemption will slip through my grasp forever", in short how not grabbing the spears would affect him personally, instead of thinking that maybe if Kaworu and Asuka tell him to not touch them it's for a reason and that he should stop and ponder what global consequences grabbing the spears could have.
That was probably the meaning behind Mari telling him to learn how the world works(each of our action have far reaching consequences, you don't live in a closed bubble) and Asuka scolding him for only thinking about himself(not thinking the potential global consequences of his actions)

He didn't do anything wrong, yet they strapped a bomb to his neck (yes, it was more than likely meant for Kaworu...but Katsuragi certainly would have pulled the trigger on Shinji, without a single tear, if she had that damned remote). They made him their pariah, because they couldn't solve anything--and to make it worse they NEEDED him and Unit 01 to even have a hope of continuing to survive. They lied to him, they didn't listen to him, and they left him alone...

Wait, Misato did had the remote of Shinji's Choker, she even hesitated to use and finally couldn't bring herself to pull the trigger.
Also, it's implied that Shinji coming back was completely unplanned and took them all by surprise, normally once you get absorbed by the Eva, it's game over, you can't come back. That's why Ritsuko panicked everytime a pilot plug depth was too high. WILLE only needed Unit 01 to power up the Wunder, Shinji coming back from the grave was totally not planned.

BTW, did anyone notice that when Shinji was on Wunder that it was quite possible that the Rei he heard (seemingly almost telepathically, asking only this: "Where are you?") may have literally been Rei II and NOT Rei III in Unit 00

Since the telepathic voice seemed pretty emotionless and that Mark.09's fist pierced the room where Shinji was just when he answered to that voice, the more probable is that it was Rei Q's voice somehow going into Shinji's head.

They must make sure he understands how things WORK--the problem is that no one, ever, not in the past and certainly not in the present (not even the great Kaworu) explained ONE thing about what would happen if they do "x", then "y" happens; they always just "went with the flow", with no planning and explanations before-hand (in that context, Kaworu is also partially responsible for his own fate).

I agreed that Kaworu handled his explanations very poorly : his info-sump about Third Impact was full of contradictions and omissions(Shinji is supposedly the responsible for Third Impact, yet the epicenter was in Lilith Chamber and involved the 12th Angel?), to the point that I suspect him of trying to manipulate Shinji and deliberately hiding information to do so.
As for WILLE, they were explaining him things, but Mark.09's attack interrupted them before they had the time to start with the most critical stuff. But I admit that Asuka could had handled the situation better in Lilith's Chamber by at least trying to explain to him why he shouldn't touch the spears.