The Morality of Gendo

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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The Morality of Gendo

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Postby Lord ikari shinji » Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:24 pm

[Split from "Does Asuka hate Shinji in Q?". Click link to see the post that this post is a response to. - Monk]

^
hey man you really got something against Gendo

he not even a that bad of person(terrible f***ing dad)......but bad person NO

I have to say on his behalf Gendo is just following the wishes of he's own heart, he is a scared man, he fears his own emotions and just would the one person who loved him back by his side, is that so wrong?

Shakespeare- "nothing is truly right or wrong, only thinking makes it so......

sorry for the little derail there.

OT: nice argument earlier/ everyone has their own perspective on how the new Asuka feels about Shinji but your's fit what I say and felt too....

very interesting point have been brought up in this discuss, and it just fuels my anxiety for 4.0 FINAL I guess Anno and his team are doing something right. :bigeyes:
Last edited by Lord ikari shinji on Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:31 pm

View Original PostLord ikari Shinji wrote:I have to say on his behalf Gendo is just following the wishes of he's own heart, he is a scared man he fears him own emotions and just would the one person who loved him back by his side is that so wrong.

When getting her back includes to fuck up the planet, trick his son into almost triggering the apocalypse which would later make him hated by everyone and treated as a war criminal and later break him mentally, and generally making everyone who's still alive life completely miserable, then YES, it's completely and utterly wrong.
Gendo is Evangelion's poster boy of selfishness, someone who's ready to send the whole world to Hell to get what he wants, without any regrets.

Contrast Shinji who, although saying that he doesn't care about the world, is horrified by what he allegedly inadvertently unleashed on the world, and became obsessed by repairing everyhting and atone for what he did.
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:41 pm

View Original PostLord ikari Shinji wrote:he not even a that bad of person(terrible f***ing dad)......but bad person NO


Wrong. He was willing to nuke humanity to get what he wanted, so he very much is a bad person. He's much more ambiguous in NGE, but in the NTE and particularly in Q there's no question on the matter.
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Postby Lord ikari shinji » Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:04 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:When getting her back includes to fuck up the planet, trick his son into almost triggering the apocalypse which would later make him hated by everyone and treated as a war criminal and later break him mentally, and generally making everyone who's still alive life completely miserable, then YES, it's completely and utterly wrong.


I'm not ratifying or justifying his action, indeed will rule that his action are selfish and that of course his an awful parent and Shinji deserved much better father, one with more compassion via Kaji but I will say that as human we all(subjectively) are selfish beings and put our wants above the desires others, its what makes us as people so ambitious. gendo was himself was emotional scar-ed by yui death and intern imposed that on Shinji.(one the reason I love eva. so much was for the characters and how they relate to people(in general) in life)

Gendo, I my opinion, is the embodiment human selfishness and ambition{mainly} and I think Sadamoto/ Anno did great job creating/ bring to life that spec of human behavior. To me, Gendo is a masterpiece, not a villain but a loss man looking for his love/ redemption.
:uhh:
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Postby Reichu » Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:10 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:in the NTE and particularly in Q there's no question on the matter.

NGE basically explained Gendo's motivations and fatal character flaws at the final hour. The final chapter of NTE has not yet been released. It would not be out of the question for Anno to completely surprise us about this version of Gendo. Unambiguously bad people as main cast members isn't really his style, anyway.
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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:28 am

View Original PostLord ikari Shinji wrote:but I will say that as human we all(subjectively) are selfish beings and put our wants above the desires others, its what makes us as people so ambitious.

That's true, even for the other characters of Eva : Fuyutsuki seems to only continue following Gendo for the chance to be reunited with Yui, Misato joined NERV mainly to get close to her late father and have her revenge against the Angels and by her own admission didn't really cared about mankind, Asuka piloted for the glory and status of being an Eva pilot, and Shinji came back to fight Zeruel for Rei's sake and not for mankind...

But what differentiate people like Misato, Asuka and Shinji from Gendo and Fuyutsuki is that when the formers' wishes comes to the detriment of others, they tend to back down and change their ways, unlike Gendo/Fuyu who continues no matter what.
Yes even Shinji : he refused to pilot again after Ramiel almost roasted him alive, Misato showed him Lilith and why they need him to fight, and he accepted to come back by his own volition; he said that he didn't cared about the world, but when he discovered that his Eva does have the power to destroy the world, he was horrified...


View Original PostLord ikari Shinji wrote:Gendo, I my opinion, is the embodiment human selfishness and ambition{mainly} and I think Sadamoto/ Anno did great job creating/ bring to life that spec of human behavior. To me, Gendo is a masterpiece, not a villain but a loss man looking for his love/ redemption.
:uhh:

I quite agree : more than a villain, Gendo is the embodiment of human selfishness, to the point that it becomes toxic for everyone around him, even Fuyutsuki is implied to barely stands him anymore by Q.



View Original PostReichu wrote:NGE basically explained Gendo's motivations and fatal character flaws at the final hour. The final chapter of NTE has not yet been released. It would not be out of the question for Anno to completely surprise us about this version of Gendo. Unambiguously bad people as main cast members isn't really his style, anyway.

Personally, I think that Gendo in 1.0 and 2.0 was more "humane" thanks to Rei, who acted as a morality pet for him. It's shown by how he rescued her after EVA-00's accident and smiled while talking to her in 1.0, and how he looked after her during her baths of LCL, the dinners they shared and him accepting to participate in her dinner party in 2.0. The fact it's revealed in 3.0 that Yui's maiden name was Ayanami only reinforces how Gendo sees Rei as a potential surrogate daughter.

And it shows even with Shinji on a certain extend : the scene with Bardiel was modified so it doesn't looks like Gendo is just enjoying seeing his son indirectly mauling a friend, but more like extremely pragmatic man who didn't had an other choice(which is true : this time Shinji was the only available pilot against Bardiel, and if he died the Angel would go to Lilith without much problems)

And it's even possible to see Gendo's plan to trap Rei and Shinji inside EVA-01 during its awakening as his way to put them both in safety alongside Yui, for the time the final part of his plan is accomplished, which is when things with SEELE will start to become really heated(contrasting with the "cold war" of successive sabotaging they waged thorough 2.0).

But them something happened after 2.0, which led to Misato and co. splitting from NERV, EVA-01 shot into orbit, the world destroyed, SEELE squatting the now ruins of his base, and having to wait more than a decade to launch the B-Plan. All of this forced Gendo to become more and more radical and ruthless in his plans, and without Rei acting as a morality pet, he let his worst tendencies take over, transforming him into someone with an almost machine-like train of thoughts, pragmatic to the point that he's ready to use more clones of Rei as spare tools for Mark.09 and completely break mentally his son to further his plans.

In short, he's the extreme example of what happens when you cut yourself from everyone and goes exclusively solo, Shinji made the same bitter experience when he tried to go solo with Kaworu and later all on his own with EVA-13.


TL;DR : Gendo isn't the stereotypical evil overlord making everyone's life miserable for the hell of it, but an human being who let his flaws rot him to the point that his actions are no better than if he was an evil overlord.
He doesn't let morality get in the way of his actions anymore(not like he had much morality left before the time skip), he doesn't define himself as good or evil, only as someone who does what must be done to achieve his plans... which makes him a villain from the rest of the world's point of view.
Last edited by ElMariachi on Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby pwhodges » Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:45 am

You work very hard as his apologist - frankly, I just don't find him worth the effort, important though he is to the whole plot. Maybe that's a weakness of mine...
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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:39 am

^
I don't think that's a weakness from you : after everything he did , especially in Q, he's not worth the effort anymore, and he doesn't even want to be forgiven,he doesn't give a shit about anyone anymore, except Yui and his master plan.
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Postby Chuckman » Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:50 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:^
I don't think that's a weakness from you : after everything he did , especially in Q, he's not worth the effort anymore, and he doesn't even want to be forgiven,he doesn't give a shit about anyone anymore, except Yui and his master plan.


This is when a man is at his most pitiable.
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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:07 am

^
Maybe, but as pitiable as he's, there comes a point where when someone continue to cling on his ways which harms people around him and makes him downright dangerous for everyone, and just don't want to change, then it's time to take him down, no matter how much pity he arises.
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Postby Chuckman » Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:17 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:^
Maybe, but as pitiable as he's, there comes a point where when someone continue to cling on his ways which harms people around him and makes him downright dangerous for everyone, and just don't want to change, then it's time to take him down, no matter how much pity he arises.


Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them?

I have hope that Final will focus on resolving the Gendo-Shinji plotline. The television series, whichever ending you follow, pretty much just drops it.
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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:19 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them?

I'm sure WILLE will be happy to oblige about the "deserving death" part! ^_^

View Original PostChuckman wrote:I have hope that Final will focus on resolving the Gendo-Shinji plotline. The television series, whichever ending you follow, pretty much just drops it.

Me too, that's one of my biggest grips about EoE, Shinji and Gendo never got a closure on their relationship, it stopped dead with Bardiel. Maybe that was to represent how Shinji and Gendo really lost any connection a long time ago, that it's futile to try to reconnect, and that they really don't have anything else to say, but that still feels like a missed opportunity for me, especially since Gendo at last gave his reasons for treating Shinji the way he did.

And in Rebuild they really have an heavy passive, since Gendo pretty much controlled his son's life since Yui's disappearance so he would one day awake EVA-01, which ruined his childhood, and by the time of Q probably his whole life. And did it again by destroying him mentally!
No really in FINALE there must be a last scene where Shinji and Gendo interact to put an end to their arc, even the manga gave something with their reunion inside Instrumentality.
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Postby Dream » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:10 pm

I always saw (Rebuild) Gendo as a very talented and intelligent man who couldn't cope with or accept some of the inevitabilities or frailties of human life/existence, largely symbolized by his wife's "death". Thus, he does everything possible to "defy" nature and existence itself. I always saw that as the narrative reason behind Kaworu calling Gendo the "King of the Lilim". I guess it's subjective as to whether or not this makes him a bad person, but Rebuild almost unequivocally casts him as the antagonist of the films.

I have hope that Final will focus on resolving the Gendo-Shinji plotline. The television series, whichever ending you follow, pretty much just drops it.


Personally, i thought the Gendo-Shinji plotline had a very good conclusion around episode 19 or so with some "epilogues" at the endings.
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Postby chee » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:51 pm

Gendo is almost comparable to Char Aznable, except without a Zeta
Gundam
to make him seem redeemable, inasmuch as he's ultimately a manipulative scumbag whose good qualities in the end can't stop him from sliding further and further into being beyond redemption. We like him for his understated, articulate charisma, and not because he's a good person by any stretch. Even if Gendo did what he did out of "love", it's out of a self-absorbed, needy "love" that treated the people he cared for more as objects for his emotional satisfaction - even to the point where his reasons for not wanting to hurt Shinji stem more from selfish obsession with his own failures as a person than from any genuine consideration of what the kid really needs or wants. The man's pretty unambiguously a shitty human being, even during the moments when he seems like he could be redeemable. His more sympathetic qualities serve less to redeem him as they do to give human context to his selfishness and tendency to use people like objects.

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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:10 pm

^
Well say Chee, I couldn't agree more! :tiphat:
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Postby Rei IV » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:33 pm

View Original Postchee wrote:Gendo is almost comparable to Char Aznable, except without a Zeta
Gundam
to make him seem redeemable, inasmuch as he's ultimately a manipulative scumbag whose good qualities in the end can't stop him from sliding further and further into being beyond redemption. We like him for his understated, articulate charisma, and not because he's a good person by any stretch. Even if Gendo did what he did out of "love", it's out of a self-absorbed, needy "love" that treated the people he cared for more as objects for his emotional satisfaction - even to the point where his reasons for not wanting to hurt Shinji stem more from selfish obsession with his own failures as a person than from any genuine consideration of what the kid really needs or wants. The man's pretty unambiguously a shitty human being, even during the moments when he seems like he could be redeemable. His more sympathetic qualities serve less to redeem him as they do to give human context to his selfishness and tendency to use people like objects.

Well, NGE Gendo is (somewhat) a lot more "sympathetic" (if you want to call it that) while NTE Gendo is a lot more manipulative and seems to be pulling most of the strings/running the show.

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Postby monitoradiation » Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:39 pm

Gendo in NGE reminds me of the astronaut in The Fountain - Someone who was unable to accept the loss of his wife and did the best he could to try to get her back; but it was revealed at the very end that he accepted what his wife wanted for him.

Gendo in Rebuild didn't seem at all like he was interested in what Yui wants (even though that could just be because Yui has a smaller impact in Rebuild); he just wants to be reunited with her at all cost even if it destroys everything else. At this rate I don't have high hopes for any kind of redemption for him. He's gone full on evil overlord mode, it seems.
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Postby Chuckman » Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:43 pm

The name change is a strong indicator that Rebuild is about Gendo in the sense that NGE was about Yui.
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Postby ElMariachi » Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:04 am

I don't know about you, but I get the feeling that in Rebuild being reunited with Yui isn't Gendo's only objective :
- her name change putting Gendo's relationship toward Rei on a totally different light than in NGE(by giving her the surname Ayanami he makes Rei enters as part of his family, like a daughter),
- her words to Gendo when he has a vision/flash-back of her : "Darling, please take care of Shinji" sounds strangely like last wishes because departing for a long time, or even for good, while in NGE she didn't let any hints that she would disappear into EVA-01 specifically so Gendo wouldn't have any doubts and try to stop her
- Fuyutsuki claiming in 2.0 that he prefers a "world of chaos inhabited by mankind" instead of a land "purified of the original sin"(positioning him clearly against SEELE and HIP) yet is still working with Gendo 14 years later even though his machinations supposedly led to the world completely wrecked.

I wonder if in the Rebuild continuity Gendo didn't knew what would happen during the Contact Experiment, that Yui wanted it to happen and worst, that both them and Fuyutsuki are in cahoots since the beginning, instead of Yui going on solo and only confiding her plan to Fuyutsuki so he could keep an eye on Gendo.
Having the duo of bad guys be actually a trio, the third one being not only the true mastermind of the Plan, but what we though a force of good, hidden on plain sight, and who's now a godly being and the control system of the good guys flagship, now that would be something totally new and shocking!

Coincidentally that would also explain why Gendo undertook such a dangerous recovery/kidnapping operation with so much variables : what if Mark.09 didn't immediately found Shinji? What if he refuses to go with them and run to hide somewhere into the ship? What if Misato had pressed the detonation button?
But if Yui is in cahoots with Gendo, that would explain everything, since she's the Wunder's control system : how Mark.09 managed to raid the Wunder without being detected? She hacked the radar. How Rei Q knew exactly where was Shinji in the ship? Because Yui sent his coordinates to Gendo. How he knew precisely the timing to attack so Shinji would believe that Misato lied to him about Rei? Because Yui was broadcasting the briefing to him.
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Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby monitoradiation » Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:25 pm

Somewhat plausible that Yui in the Rebuild continuity is actually in cahoots with Gendo and Kozou. however, if that were true that means Gendo must want something else other than the return of Yui in the Rebuild continuity. I might have to rewatch all of the movies with the presumption that Yui might possibly be devious and everything that Gendo says to Yui has a different meaning than the one I've been assuming.
"0" is the past, "1" is the future, but "the present" is nowhere - this is an undeniable logic.
Among the countless parallel lines, I settle on "blasphemy" as my choice.


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